Author Topic: Is America Cursed?  (Read 13421 times)

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Offline Tonus

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #87 on: May 23, 2013, 09:52:59 AM »
I do believe if you go around pissing a lot of people off they will do something to cause you harm.  It's not a curse, what do you call it?

I would call that consequences, not a curse.  For example, if you smoke, you increase the odds that you will suffer one of several health problems, including severe ones like cancer.  If you got cancer, it is very likely that it was a consequence of your smoking.

The accident suffered by the friend who did you wrong was probably a consequence of one or more factors.  Perhaps another driver cut her off.  Perhaps she is a risky driver by nature and it caught up to her.  Perhaps she hit a slick spot that she didn't see.  Any of those could be a factor in her accident.  Her actions in regards to you might have been a factor if they were weighing on her conscience and she was more distracted than normal.  I could see where someone would call that karma, in that her actions against you may have led to her accident.  But outside of that, it wouldn't be a factor.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #88 on: May 23, 2013, 10:13:24 AM »
I would call that consequences, not a curse.

This is how I see it as well.  Inasmuch as someone's own actions cause their downfall, I think that the word 'curse' only applies in a colloquial sense.  A claim of retaliation coming from a supernatural source actually muddies the picture, as many of the victims of major disasters (e.g. small children) simply could not have behaved so badly as to invite such a tragic fate upon themselves.  If this were a genuine form of divine justice at play here, I'd expect to see the karma targeting more people in and behind the halls of power and fewer schoolkids.

Unfortunately, due to instability in planetary climate and continued population growth, I fear that we're likely to see a corresponding increase in the number and severity of disasters worldwide. 
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Offline HAL

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #89 on: May 23, 2013, 10:44:22 AM »
Per the definition -

Quote
curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse


Here's a curse in the sense of the meaning:

I HAL curse Junebug and her computer and I appeal to the forces of darkness, under the control of Satan, to cause Junebug's computer CPU to short out so she can't twist the meaning of words on this forum any more.

Now that's a curse.  8)

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #90 on: May 23, 2013, 03:03:05 PM »
We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Well it was for a few weeks, there was a slight glitch and after that, it's been same old, same old... I think it's time to just accept that this is the way man is, and leave it at that and move on. God's probably dying to try his hand out in some other universe but finds himself tied down answering prayers to find car-keys, cure a small headache, etc.

Quote
Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

Yeah, that helps.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #91 on: May 23, 2013, 09:57:35 PM »
Quote
It was taken by force from native americans


Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time has policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.

I don't think 12M was really suggesting otherwise. He just likes taking an opportunity to remind Americans that many of them live on land that's only available because of intervention by europeans.
Yes,thanks.....Aussies as well 8)
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #92 on: May 24, 2013, 01:06:44 AM »
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.


Online Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #93 on: May 24, 2013, 04:20:00 AM »
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Or why god curses the US of A whilst allah blesses Saudi arabia

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #94 on: May 24, 2013, 04:30:25 AM »
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Or why god curses the US of A whilst allah blesses Saudi arabia

Junebug doesn't DO direct answers to questions.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #95 on: May 24, 2013, 04:31:34 AM »
I don't think 12M was really suggesting otherwise. He just likes taking an opportunity to remind Americans that many of them live on land that's only available because of intervention by europeans.
Yes,thanks.....Aussies as well 8)

The post was addressed to Junebug.
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #96 on: May 24, 2013, 05:20:04 AM »
Once again, I think I'm catching on.

jb, I'm going to restate your premise to see if I've figured out what you mean - please correct me if I get it wrong:

Is America experiencing a backlash of negative things because of the harm we have done to others throughout our countries history? Something of a karmic scale balancing act? What goes around, comes around?

Is that what you are saying, more or less?

Really Jag I just asked a question.  I wanted to know what evangelicals thought on the subject.  Go figure I'm not getting anybody but MM on this atheist website.  Just so you know, I've tried a couple of Christian forums and they don't let you say anything hardly.  Especially about their stand against gays.  So let's say this, for religious folks let's go with cursed and for you atheist let's go with your question.

I should let you write my OT you get my point across better than i do.  I have this 1 style of writing and it doesn't work well here.  I could have GB's attitude and accept it or I can try harder until I get it right.  I have been on my own with my beliefs for so long.  That's why it seems like a fantasy to you all, it kind of is.  I did not want my thoughts clouded by what other people thought.  See story telling is the only way I know to get my point across.  I don't do it to drive you crazy or anything.

Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America.  I do think America brings some things upon itself but not tornados, although it is possible that pollution/global warming is making them more intense.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Online Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #97 on: May 24, 2013, 05:37:52 AM »
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #98 on: May 24, 2013, 05:39:07 AM »
Still no explanation from JB on the cause of hurricanes on lifeless Jupiter.

Or why god curses the US of A whilst allah blesses Saudi arabia

Junebug doesn't DO direct answers to questions.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure. 

THAT IS NOT TRUE I HAVE ANSWERED MANY QUESTIONS DIRECTLY. I DO THE BEST I CAN.  SO SORRY I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU A.

HOW ABOUT EVIDENCE.  TELL ME HOW MANY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ASKED AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 75% YOU ARE WRONG AND JUST BEING DIFFICULT.  IF YOU ARE RIGHT I'LL LEAVE THIS WEBSITE AND NEVER RETURN. I ANSWERED 5/6 FROM YOU YESTERDAY, I MISSED 1 THAT IS 83%. 

IT WAS A MECHANICAL RESULT IN THAT SCENARIO, REVENGE IN THE SECOND.

THE HURRICANES ON JUPITER IS A RESULT OF DISTANCE FROM THE SUN AND OTHER NATURAL CAUSES. 

YOU HAVE NO EMPATHY ANFAUGLIR.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #99 on: May 24, 2013, 05:42:01 AM »
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

ARE YOU SO ARROGANT THAT YOU CAN'T READ?  I said I don't think America is cursed.  I even bolded it dummy.

In fact I asked the question of evangelicals/religious folks so we "together" could convince them they are wrong.

You idiot.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Online Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #100 on: May 24, 2013, 05:43:34 AM »
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

ARE YOU SO ARROGANT THAT YOU CAN'T READ?  I said I don't think America is cursed.  I even bolded it dummy.

In fact I asked the question of evangelicals/religious folks so we "together" could convince them they are wrong.

You idiot.

Ahem. *subject title* ahem

edit
Oh and this

Quote
I do think America brings some things upon itself
How? Its the fucking leprechauns again isn't it?
BAD leprechauns.

Quote
Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America
Are you retarded or do you just type without thinking?
Can you see the contradictions in those lines?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:53:08 AM by Mrjason »

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #101 on: May 24, 2013, 05:58:51 AM »
Per the definition -

Quote
curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse


Here's a curse in the sense of the meaning:

I HAL curse Junebug and her computer and I appeal to the forces of darkness, under the control of Satan, to cause Junebug's computer CPU to short out so she can't twist the meaning of words on this forum any more.

Now that's a curse.  8)

Quote
Graybeard
What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

I did what I was asked to do.  It was in question form, not stated as fact.  I was asking you what you thought.  All you had to say was no that's not a curse and support your claim.  You could have left out the DRAMA!!!

I shrug you off as a believer hater, even though my belief does not hurt you or anyone else.  Your judgement is clouded by hate.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #102 on: May 24, 2013, 06:06:12 AM »
Hi Junebug,

I'll answer your question.

No, America isn't cursed.
Are you so arrogant that you can think that god has singled out your nation for special treatment now, in your lifetime, for past transgressions?

ARE YOU SO ARROGANT THAT YOU CAN'T READ?  I said I don't think America is cursed.  I even bolded it dummy.

In fact I asked the question of evangelicals/religious folks so we "together" could convince them they are wrong.

You idiot.

Ahem. *subject title* ahem

edit
Oh and this

Quote
I do think America brings some things upon itself
How? Its the fucking leprechauns again isn't it?
BAD leprechauns.

Quote
Back on subject. I do want to know if any religious members thinks America is cursed. I don't think God is punishing America
Are you retarded or do you just type without thinking?
Can you see the contradictions in those lines?

Did you see the ?.  Did you read it?  Leprechauns, really?  How did you come up with that?  If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?

I see no contradiction. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #103 on: May 24, 2013, 06:08:07 AM »
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #104 on: May 24, 2013, 06:16:17 AM »
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

After all the insults I give back some.  I am not hating anybody, I'm taking up for myself.  You want a battle of wits, let's go!!!  I will match you insult for insult.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #105 on: May 24, 2013, 06:21:10 AM »
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

After all the insults I give back some.  I am not hating anybody, I'm taking up for myself.  You want a battle of wits, let's go!!!  I will match you insult for insult.

What insults I asked a question?

What have insults got to do with wits? Surely resorting to insults is a display of a lack of wits.

Ok back on subject.[1]

You think that America has somehow brought natural disasters upon itsself as a result of some karmic intervention? Is this correct?

 1. NB the original subject title is "Is America cursed"

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #106 on: May 24, 2013, 06:27:04 AM »
<snip>
THE HURRICANES ON JUPITER IS A RESULT OF DISTANCE FROM THE SUN AND OTHER NATURAL CAUSES. 
<snip>

Okay, so you are aware that natural disasters have natural causes. Why would you even begin to suggest that natural disasters have magical causes then?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #107 on: May 24, 2013, 06:37:35 AM »
I do believe if you go around pissing a lot of people off they will do something to cause you harm.  It's not a curse, what do you call it?

I would call that consequences, not a curse.  For example, if you smoke, you increase the odds that you will suffer one of several health problems, including severe ones like cancer.  If you got cancer, it is very likely that it was a consequence of your smoking.

The accident suffered by the friend who did you wrong was probably a consequence of one or more factors.  Perhaps another driver cut her off.  Perhaps she is a risky driver by nature and it caught up to her.  Perhaps she hit a slick spot that she didn't see.  Any of those could be a factor in her accident.  Her actions in regards to you might have been a factor if they were weighing on her conscience and she was more distracted than normal.  I could see where someone would call that karma, in that her actions against you may have led to her accident.  But outside of that, it wouldn't be a factor.

Are you referring to ex. 1 or 2. For 2, I definitely define that one as revenge for screwing my best friend's girl.  Consequence fits the first scenario where I neglected my car but could be applied to 2 as well.

Yes that girl drove too fast.   Thanks for your input Tonus.  I shouldn't have been thinking out loud. lol
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #108 on: May 24, 2013, 06:54:08 AM »
I would call that consequences, not a curse.

This is how I see it as well.  Inasmuch as someone's own actions cause their downfall, I think that the word 'curse' only applies in a colloquial sense.  A claim of retaliation coming from a supernatural source actually muddies the picture, as many of the victims of major disasters (e.g. small children) simply could not have behaved so badly as to invite such a tragic fate upon themselves.  If this were a genuine form of divine justice at play here, I'd expect to see the karma targeting more people in and behind the halls of power and fewer schoolkids.

Unfortunately, due to instability in planetary climate and continued population growth, I fear that we're likely to see a corresponding increase in the number and severity of disasters worldwide.

I was hoping you'd chime in there Astreja.  I share your fears! 

When my son was a child when he got punished I would always make sure he understood why.  I would think God would punish in a similar way or it's cruelty not punishment.  I try to stay away from thinking that God is cruel and that punishments are reserved for after death and are fair.  I believe we are judged as individuals not large groups. 

Funny: I'm sitting here in the quiet alone.  It is very windy here this morn and it blew my front door open slowly, creaking.  After that curse from Hal it kind of sent shivers up my spine.  boooooooooo :laugh:

I want to apologize to the rest of you for the DRAMA.  I am so sorry you had to witness that.   I usually try turning the other cheek but fuck that.  There comes a time when you have to take up for yourself.  I don't hate anybody and I will forgive them as soon as they stop.  They don't even have to apologize, just stop.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #109 on: May 24, 2013, 06:59:10 AM »
JB, of course you think your god would punish in a similar way as you... thats why its called SPAG. duh.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #110 on: May 24, 2013, 07:02:30 AM »
If I'm a retard then you are less than retarded you are braindead.  Smoke too much crack or something?  Did your mom drop you on your head?
 

And you're the one who thinks we hate you?

After all the insults I give back some.  I am not hating anybody, I'm taking up for myself.  You want a battle of wits, let's go!!!  I will match you insult for insult.

What insults I asked a question?

What have insults got to do with wits? Surely resorting to insults is a display of a lack of wits.

Ok back on subject.[1]

You think that America has somehow brought natural disasters upon itsself as a result of some karmic intervention? Is this correct?
 1. NB the original subject title is "Is America cursed"

You called me arrogant on a point that I don't even have.  Idiot!!!

NO<NO<NO you are not correct that's why I keep saying ID-I-OT!!!  You can't see past the nose on your face.

Okay look I'm sorry for being mean.  I'm trying to understand that you are misunderstanding.  That's all this is.  You totally misunderstand me.  Again so sorry for being mean.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #111 on: May 24, 2013, 07:04:55 AM »
JB, of course you think your god would punish in a similar way as you... thats why its called SPAG. duh.

Sure enough Gawd, sure enough. I don't call it SPAG though that's what you atheist call it, understandably so.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #112 on: May 24, 2013, 07:16:16 AM »
I want to make something very clear.  I do not believe America is cursed.  My intentions was to attract evangelicals to answer the question.  It is something they believe I DISAGREE with.  I thought that together we might do some good.  It definitely hasn't turned out the way I planned and those things happen.  My own fault for not being more like yal.  I am a work in progress. ;)

I do believe the country suffers consequences for it's actions.  I don't think it's tornados except to say it is possible we are making them more intense with global warming.  I sincerely hope this clarifies my intentions and my view on the curse question.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #113 on: May 24, 2013, 07:22:34 AM »
ok.

You think that America is suffering natural consequences for abusing the environment?
Yes?

I'm not sure about that. I think that global warming is something that occurs anyway.

here is an interesting article about that http://www.drroyspencer.com/global-warming-natural-or-manmade/

the rest of the website has a lot to say on the subject too

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #114 on: May 24, 2013, 07:42:57 AM »
JB, of course you think your god would punish in a similar way as you... thats why its called SPAG. duh.

Sure enough Gawd, sure enough. I don't call it SPAG though that's what you atheist call it, understandably so.
Its less a name and more a description... one that you and your version of god fit perfectly. One that Fred Phelps and his version of god fit perfectly as well. It becomes clear that there is no god just the concepts that each individual makes up him or herself. Of course those concepts answer nothing and are wastes of time when we could be finding answers to actual problems and not promoting our SPAGs... forcing others to waste time battling against these SPAGs causing harm in our communities.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #115 on: May 24, 2013, 08:21:51 AM »
Quote from: Anfauglir
Junebug doesn't DO direct answers to questions.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure. 

THAT IS NOT TRUE I HAVE ANSWERED MANY QUESTIONS DIRECTLY. I DO THE BEST I CAN.  SO SORRY I'M NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU A.

HOW ABOUT EVIDENCE.  TELL ME HOW MANY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ASKED AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 75% YOU ARE WRONG AND JUST BEING DIFFICULT.  IF YOU ARE RIGHT I'LL LEAVE THIS WEBSITE AND NEVER RETURN. I ANSWERED 5/6 FROM YOU YESTERDAY, I MISSED 1 THAT IS 83%. 

YOU HAVE NO EMPATHY ANFAUGLIR.

Tell me why I should have empathy for someone that I believe deliberately ignores questions that they fear would shake their faith?  Well, empathy perhaps, if you mean "feel sorry for", but certainly not respect. 

If I honestly felt that you were doing your utmost to answers questions raised; to clairfy and be as clear and specific as possible; to take on board what other people are telling you and honestly consider it.....then, I might have empathy.  But sadly, I don't.

Here's a question that you never answered: What is your criteria for evidence?  VERY relevant here, since you are asking for specific numerical evidence to be gathered to support your position.  Can't you just accept that  "I have a feeling you don't answer questions" and leave me alone?

But fair enough - you ask for evidence, here we go: questions (just of mine) that you have not answered in this thread.  I reckon that there are at least 8 questions here that you have not answered.  The crucial one (for me) I have put in bold.

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

First off, is your preferred explanation for central-US's level of tornados still "a curse", or are you now leaning more towards "natural result of terrain and climate in that area?"

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

Do you feel there is a critical number of haters for a curse to take effect, or is there a sliding scale? 

Is it purely a "quantity" thing, or does it vary depending on the scale of the hate - i.e. does one person seriously hating you cause the same level of curse to fall on you as ten people vaguely disliking you?  (Not implying those are actual numbers, but you see what I mean).

if weather comes from pollution, then cease pollution and you cease the weather.  But if we're talking some kind of karmic effect from people hating you, then would the curse effect cease immediately?  What if the person still hates you even AFTER you've said sorry?  Do you believe the curse would stop, or keep going?

That's a lot of questions I can't trace the answers to, Junebug.  I reckon well over half of the questions I've asked you have not answered.  And that's just in this thread, never mind "what is your criteria for evidence" from the debate - would you like me to search other threads as well?  Remember "why should I follow any of your links, when the one piece of yours I DID read was dishonest and manipulative"?  Remember "did you read the anstract it referenced?  Did you read the actual study?  Or did you just think 'this fits my opinion, I will just post it and never mind if it is honest or not'"?

No answers to any of them.....CRUCIAL questions if you want my sympathy and respect.

TELL ME HOW MANY QUESTIONS HAVE BEEN ASKED AND HOW MANY HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.  IF IT'S MORE THAN 75% YOU ARE WRONG AND JUST BEING DIFFICULT.  IF YOU ARE RIGHT I'LL LEAVE THIS WEBSITE AND NEVER RETURN.

Hmmm.

You likely won't believe it, but (hopefully) long-term members will back me up that it is extremely rare for me to have so many problems with another poster.  I engaged happily with posters like Fran, and Afadly, when others had already given up on them.  I was able to debate with joebowers, and accept he had some good points even though he was generally considered a jerk and (in other threads) I had been vigorously opposing his position. 

You don't know who they are, I suspect.  But point being, its truly very, very rare that I find myself with so little respect for another poster on this forum.  Most people get a whoooole lot of tolerance and respect from me, for quite considerable lengths of time.  But - as you note - I very quickly got to a stage with you where I had lost all respect for you, based on the amount of questions that you had dodged.

Why do you think that is, if you are indeed the blameless "answer all questions" Junebug that you protest you are?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 08:24:01 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?