Author Topic: Is America Cursed?  (Read 11679 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #58 on: May 23, 2013, 07:27:17 AM »
So far I've only seen MM and his answers are vague.

Yes, I haven't entered the discussion with serious intent. My apologies.

I do not think America is cursed.
I gather he's European and may not have much of an opinion on American curses. 

Nah, love. Australian.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #59 on: May 23, 2013, 07:35:01 AM »
Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

Tough shit. I gave a reason for it, and if I see any more ridiculous claims or idiotic quips I'll give you another one. If you don't want smites, don't say silly things like

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Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

 :?

Your brain must be the size of a pea. Will somebody please help get this jerk off my back.  We were trying to understand the meaning of a curse.  GB asked to leave out deities and what not.  I guess it depends on what you consider a curse.  That is why it was proposed as a question and not a fact and if your brain was larger than a pea you would know that.  You put no thought into your response.  The post was meant to start a conversation about what we all thought a curse to be.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #60 on: May 23, 2013, 07:38:09 AM »
We were trying to understand the meaning of a curse.  GB asked to leave out deities and what not.  I guess it depends on what you consider a curse.  That is why it was proposed as a question and not a fact and if your brain was larger than a pea you would know that.  You put no thought into your response.  The post was meant to start a conversation about what we all thought a curse to be.

Bullshit.

I used the dictionary definition which apparently means nothing to you. I put enough into my response TO LOOK UP THE DEFINITION. Yea, I guess that's a waste of time with delusional theists, as we've seen in your last debate.

Oh, and the thing about smites is, I don't care about mine. You clearly do. That gives me a tremendous built-in advantage in this area over members such as yourself.   :)

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #61 on: May 23, 2013, 07:45:42 AM »
Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

Tough shit. I gave a reason for it, and if I see any more ridiculous claims or idiotic quips I'll give you another one. If you don't want smites, don't say silly things like

Quote
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

 :?

It wasn't such a silly thing to say. Sure, it doesn't match a literal definition of curse, but like JB said, language has room for more than literal meaning. In this instance, by not adding oil to her engine she might be said to be 'asking for trouble'. No-body would be confused as to the meaning, even though no literal request for trouble was made.



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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #62 on: May 23, 2013, 07:47:18 AM »
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Regarding this.....if you really want to stretch the definition, then I suppose that yes you have - but to do so removes all meaning from the word, because all you are then saying is that EVERYTHING bad that happens as a direct consequence of your actions is a Curse.

You may as well say that if you drop your cake on the floor, you are cursed to not have that cake.  Technically true, if you push the word to its limits, but the problem then becomes how you distinguish between something that will happen by process of natural laws (no oil = damaged engine, climate patterns= environment), and something that may or may not happen as the result of intelligent decision making based on actions - your question about whether slave trading is being punished by tornados sent by some power who has judged the US for it.

Bottom line: if dropping your cake is described as a curse, what word do you use for the witchdoctor who takes payment to cause sickness in a specific person?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #63 on: May 23, 2013, 07:47:34 AM »

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....

I am sorry you had to wait Jag.  When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #64 on: May 23, 2013, 07:48:38 AM »
Sorry, jb, I cannot follow your commentary.  Your original post stated you thought America was cursed and tied that somehow to native American treatment.

Are you now saying your post was to start a discussion about what a curse might be?  If so, a dictionary definition of curse would be a logical starting point.

I would suggest starting a new thread to the tune of "what is a curse" if that is now your intention, since you clearly labeled this one "is america cursed."
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #65 on: May 23, 2013, 07:51:03 AM »
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another. 

And so - by the definition you are using - if you don't change the oil in your car, you have NOT cursed yourself to have engine failure, surely?

And I think you meant "vindictive", not "vindicatory".  The first means "harming by malicious intent", the second means "being proved to be right".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #66 on: May 23, 2013, 07:52:43 AM »
Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Regarding this.....if you really want to stretch the definition, then I suppose that yes you have - but to do so removes all meaning from the word, because all you are then saying is that EVERYTHING bad that happens as a direct consequence of your actions is a Curse.


Not quite. I think the word can retain some validity, provided there is an element of deliberate neglect in the action (I assumed with the engine oil example it was a deliberate decision to not change the oil, not mere inadvertence)
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #67 on: May 23, 2013, 07:58:09 AM »
Regarding this.....if you really want to stretch the definition, then I suppose that yes you have - but to do so removes all meaning from the word, because all you are then saying is that EVERYTHING bad that happens as a direct consequence of your actions is a Curse.

Not quite. I think the word can retain some validity, provided there is an element of deliberate neglect in the action (I assumed with the engine oil example it was a deliberate decision to not change the oil, not mere inadvertence)

Not sure I'm entirely with you on this one - I suppose that yes, you COULD count that as a curse, but then (IMO) you leave yourself no wiggle room for a "real" curse.  I quite agree that 'asking for trouble' would be a more suitable way of phrasing things.

It's like.....have you noticed that government departments seem to like referring to people as "customers" now?  To me, a "customer" is someone who chooses to make a decision as to where to take their custom.  With the tax authorities, you don't have that choice.  So when you call those people "customers", where does that leave the word for those people who choose Walmart over 7-11? 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #68 on: May 23, 2013, 08:07:32 AM »
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #69 on: May 23, 2013, 08:13:31 AM »
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another. 

And so - by the definition you are using - if you don't change the oil in your car, you have NOT cursed yourself to have engine failure, surely?

And I think you meant "vindictive", not "vindicatory".  The first means "harming by malicious intent", the second means "being proved to be right".

Well I can thank google for that 1.  I had initially wrote vindicative action and as you can see when you quote it's underlined.  I used the word it gave me.  I see you guys misspell all the time.  If I understand what you mean I just overlook it.  I am glad you pointed that one out as they have 2 distinctly different meanings.  I was using definition #1.

If I ask you do you think something is cursed the definition of the word then lies with the definition of the answerer.  When I ask the question I am referring to the wiki def. which involves deities, witchcraft, and voodoo.  GB proposed a def. w/o such entities.  So arose the "question" of the oil in my car.  I suppose a better example would be if I screwed my best friends girl and she then removed the oil plug on my car, is that a curse or bad karma?

So no I did not title the thread wrong.  I want to know if evangelical Christians here believe we are cursed by God.  I was interested in what atheist thought on the subject as well.  Specifically what ahteist thought about evangelical Christians believing God was cursing America.  I read on a website this morning when I looked up Fred Phelps that he believes the tornado was a curse because of the gay BB player.  I would say those people had nothing to do with that BB player being gay.

They are not responding, you all must've run them all off. lol  :laugh:
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #70 on: May 23, 2013, 08:18:18 AM »
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time

Indeed they do.

When I was a kid, being computer literate was considered something to sneer at, and anyone who was a computer enthusiast was commonly referred to as a "geek", which back then was considered a pretty serious slur.  Today, the derogatory implications of the word geek are all but forgotten, to the point where there are technical support companies who use the term in the names of their companies.  For a long time, I fought this, trying to get people to stop tossing the word "geek" around so casually and remind them that it was originally a pretty serious insult, but I finally gave up the battle as lost.

Another more obvious example, but going in the other direction, is "nigger", which used to be just another slang term for black people.  Around the 1970s or so, it started to become considered somewhat derogatory, but not seriously so -- for example, it was still sometimes used in TV shows by characters who were generally portrayed as uncivilized in some way or another.  Today, the word is considered a very serious slur, to the point where (for example), on those rare occasions where it's used in a television show at all, the show will typically start with a warning saying that the show you're about to watch contains offensive racial language.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #71 on: May 23, 2013, 08:19:27 AM »
Sorry, jb, I cannot follow your commentary.  Your original post stated you thought America was cursed and tied that somehow to native American treatment.

Are you now saying your post was to start a discussion about what a curse might be?  If so, a dictionary definition of curse would be a logical starting point.

I would suggest starting a new thread to the tune of "what is a curse" if that is now your intention, since you clearly labeled this one "is america cursed."

I think it was inevitable.  To properly answer the question do we not need a universal definition?

Dang GB see what you started. :o  No worries we'll get thru it. ;)
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #72 on: May 23, 2013, 08:24:45 AM »
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

True enough - I'm generally a fan of words mutating over time.  Like I said though - when you expand the meaning of a word that previously just meant "A" to now cover "A and B", what word do you use when you ONLY want to describe "A"?

To try to pull it back to this thread.....it certainly appears that Junebug was using the "just A" form of the word "curse" when she began this thread.  She mentioned "superstitions", and made clear that she really wanted responses from theists rather than boring old "cause and effect" atheists.   ;D  She suggested that maybe the tornados were happening because of early-settlers treatment of native Americans, and 1800s treatment of slaves.

So I certainly took the view that she meant the "A Only" meaning of curse.....so I can understand (and hope you can understand too) the frustration and confusion when a couple pages in, Junebug suddenly asked "Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?" which appeared to suddenly shift the terms of "curse" to a very rational cause-and-effect "B only" definition.  Particularly when she then made clear that what she meant by "curse" was "a vindicatory action imposed on you from another."

(Actually, even there it's not clear what she meant.  I took it to be a mis-stating of "vindictive", but possibly she actually meant "vindicatory", in the sense that "the effects that they experienced were a vindication of their action".....it doesn't QUITE make sense, but maybe that is what she meant - I don't know.

In a discussion where we are already talking about such vague concepts as are described by common nouns, that can mean slightly different things to different people, it would be preferable if the usage remained static.

Words evolving over time, I can deal with.  Words changing over the course of a 3-page thread.....that's something else!   ;D
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #73 on: May 23, 2013, 08:31:34 AM »
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

True enough - I'm generally a fan of words mutating over time.  Like I said though - when you expand the meaning of a word that previously just meant "A" to now cover "A and B", what word do you use when you ONLY want to describe "A"?

To try to pull it back to this thread.....it certainly appears that Junebug was using the "just A" form of the word "curse" when she began this thread.  She mentioned "superstitions", and made clear that she really wanted responses from theists rather than boring old "cause and effect" atheists.   ;D  She suggested that maybe the tornados were happening because of early-settlers treatment of native Americans, and 1800s treatment of slaves.

So I certainly took the view that she meant the "A Only" meaning of curse.....so I can understand (and hope you can understand too) the frustration and confusion when a couple pages in, Junebug suddenly asked "Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?" which appeared to suddenly shift the terms of "curse" to a very rational cause-and-effect "B only" definition.  Particularly when she then made clear that what she meant by "curse" was "a vindicatory action imposed on you from another."

(Actually, even there it's not clear what she meant.  I took it to be a mis-stating of "vindictive", but possibly she actually meant "vindicatory", in the sense that "the effects that they experienced were a vindication of their action".....it doesn't QUITE make sense, but maybe that is what she meant - I don't know.

In a discussion where we are already talking about such vague concepts as are described by common nouns, that can mean slightly different things to different people, it would be preferable if the usage remained static.

Words evolving over time, I can deal with.  Words changing over the course of a 3-page thread.....that's something else!   ;D

A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #74 on: May 23, 2013, 08:44:14 AM »
A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?

I did indeed look at GB's request.  But I also looked carefully at the post where you first talked about your car - I quote it in full below.

No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.

That's easier for you.  You do not believe in God.  I am not though.  Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Trivially, you were responding here to Jaime, not Greybeard, so I could perhaps see how people might miss the point.

But crucially, Jaime says that you should NOT mistake mechanical processes for processes instigated by choice as a judgement.

Your response seems to say that you find it hard to make that distinction.  "That's easier for you......I am not though. "  The implication - and the way Hal clearly read it, and the way I read it - is that you are saying that you not putting oil in your car and the engine dying is NOT the mechanical process that GB was asking about, but that you were genuinely suggesting that perhaps your car not working happened because some force was judging you on your failure to put oil in, and causing it to fail as a punishment.

So I can quite see while Hal reacted as he did.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure.  If we can clear that up, then I'm sure we WILL be able to move on.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #75 on: May 23, 2013, 08:53:22 AM »

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....

I am sorry you had to wait Jag.  When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

I'm willing to keep trying if you are willing to continue clarifying your terms when asked to do so. I'm not ready to give up on you jb; if you can stay calm, I can stay nice, even by your definition  ;)
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #76 on: May 23, 2013, 08:58:42 AM »
^^ To me it shows that the meaning of some words evolve over time, and that we have the power to imbue words with meaning that can be recognisable outside strict dictionary or historical definitions.

True enough - I'm generally a fan of words mutating over time.  Like I said though - when you expand the meaning of a word that previously just meant "A" to now cover "A and B", what word do you use when you ONLY want to describe "A"?

To try to pull it back to this thread.....it certainly appears that Junebug was using the "just A" form of the word "curse" when she began this thread.  She mentioned "superstitions", and made clear that she really wanted responses from theists rather than boring old "cause and effect" atheists.   ;D  She suggested that maybe the tornados were happening because of early-settlers treatment of native Americans, and 1800s treatment of slaves.

So I certainly took the view that she meant the "A Only" meaning of curse.....so I can understand (and hope you can understand too) the frustration and confusion when a couple pages in, Junebug suddenly asked "Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?" which appeared to suddenly shift the terms of "curse" to a very rational cause-and-effect "B only" definition.  Particularly when she then made clear that what she meant by "curse" was "a vindicatory action imposed on you from another."

(Actually, even there it's not clear what she meant.  I took it to be a mis-stating of "vindictive", but possibly she actually meant "vindicatory", in the sense that "the effects that they experienced were a vindication of their action".....it doesn't QUITE make sense, but maybe that is what she meant - I don't know.

In a discussion where we are already talking about such vague concepts as are described by common nouns, that can mean slightly different things to different people, it would be preferable if the usage remained static.

Words evolving over time, I can deal with.  Words changing over the course of a 3-page thread.....that's something else!   ;D

A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?

I mean why did  Jag #11 even ask me to specify my terms if it were not up for interpretation?

Anfauglir,

The recent tornado analysis I received was just an example of many American tragedies.  I used Native Americans and Africans losses as examples of actions that might be cursed.  It's really a more appropriate question for someone that actually believes America to be cursed?  Although most of the evangelicals I know would say it's because of fornication, abortion and homosexuality. So no that is not my contention. reply #3

I would hope the curse would stop.  I doubt my best friend would cease to be angry if I was sorry, there isn't much you can do to make amends for a betrayal like that. #39

I posted the question because of all the evangelicals I know that claim events like this are curses from God.#36

Answers to your previous questions.  I got sidetracked by the Hal drama, sorry.  If I missed 1 I'm sure you'll let me know.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #77 on: May 23, 2013, 09:05:19 AM »
A, will you pretty, pretty please, refer to GB's reply #8.  That's why it got twisted.  It's not because I changed my mind about the original def. of the word.  I was asked to look beyond that definition and I did.  I've been smited and all this for simply doing what GB asked me to do.  It's time to stop it already, don't you think?

I did indeed look at GB's request.  But I also looked carefully at the post where you first talked about your car - I quote it in full below.

No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.

That's easier for you.  You do not believe in God.  I am not though.  Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

Trivially, you were responding here to Jaime, not Greybeard, so I could perhaps see how people might miss the point.

But crucially, Jaime says that you should NOT mistake mechanical processes for processes instigated by choice as a judgement.

Your response seems to say that you find it hard to make that distinction.  "That's easier for you......I am not though. "  The implication - and the way Hal clearly read it, and the way I read it - is that you are saying that you not putting oil in your car and the engine dying is NOT the mechanical process that GB was asking about, but that you were genuinely suggesting that perhaps your car not working happened because some force was judging you on your failure to put oil in, and causing it to fail as a punishment.

So I can quite see while Hal reacted as he did.

It might help it - to clarify for everyone - you state whether you think your car's failure was the mechanical result of a failure to act, or was a direceted judgement on you for your failure.  If we can clear that up, then I'm sure we WILL be able to move on.

"I am not though" is the answer to J's plead to not confuse geological processes for something that is punishing the world.  I can see why it got confusing but I didn't deserve the smite the way Hal give it.  Call me lazy for not appropriately writing my answer but not guilty of what I was accused of.  Anyway I'm over it. 

Did you notice the amended version of the bad example?
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 09:07:29 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #78 on: May 23, 2013, 09:16:55 AM »
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #79 on: May 23, 2013, 09:19:41 AM »
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa
Gee from a religious and human rights issue point of view I hope not
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Tonus

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #80 on: May 23, 2013, 09:19:55 AM »
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

Note the part in bold.  Who is the "other" you refer to?  In the example you give, where your friend suffered an accident shortly after betraying you, are you saying that you may have imposed vindictive action upon her?  Or that it was imposed upon her on your behalf?  If so, by what means?

Coincidence is just that, but karma assumes a supernatural agent of some sort.  A curse, by your definition, requires action from some external force or being that we cannot detect aside from the results.  And we would have to accept that it is a capricious and/or deliberate actor, since there are people who get away with doing harm to others and they may even profit from it.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #81 on: May 23, 2013, 09:23:37 AM »

So do you think that America is cursed?


What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

Waiting patiently for jb to define and clarify her terms....

I am sorry you had to wait Jag.  When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

I'm willing to keep trying if you are willing to continue clarifying your terms when asked to do so. I'm not ready to give up on you jb; if you can stay calm, I can stay nice, even by your definition  ;)

I'm calm.  See that's what I mean by learning from you.  I know def. to terms that I did not know before.  I have more insight into my own beliefs.  I have determined that I have been wrong about some things and that has been very enlightening.  It's too deep and complicated to go into details and that is for another thread anyway.  I have never been ornery on purpose.  I aim to please no matter who I'm dealing with.  The most important skill I am learning here is how to stay calm when under scrutiny.  A skill I have been very guilty of lacking before I read "The Four Agreements".

Good Luck I can't even do it sometimes!!! lol :laugh:
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2013, 09:25:10 AM »
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa

I'm with 12Monkeys on that one.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2013, 09:28:31 AM »
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa

I'm with 12Monkeys on that one.

me too.

But it could be argued that it looks like they have been blessed though[3].
I'm asking this as I would assume that a blessing is the opposite of a curse and has the same, albeit opposite, requirements
 3. the men at any rate

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #84 on: May 23, 2013, 09:39:04 AM »
When I use the word "curse" I suppose I mean a vindicatory action imposed on you from another.  You know that term they'll get what's coming to them.  That sort of thing.  I had this friend, I was really good to.  She betrayed me.  A week later she hit a curb and busted 2 brand new tires.  Was it karmatic or coincidence.  I would like to think it was karma, but I don't know.  I think it's an interesting conversation to have.

Note the part in bold.  Who is the "other" you refer to?  In the example you give, where your friend suffered an accident shortly after betraying you, are you saying that you may have imposed vindictive action upon her?  Or that it was imposed upon her on your behalf?  If so, by what means?

Coincidence is just that, but karma assumes a supernatural agent of some sort.  A curse, by your definition, requires action from some external force or being that we cannot detect aside from the results.  And we would have to accept that it is a capricious and/or deliberate actor, since there are people who get away with doing harm to others and they may even profit from it.

I'm not sure, that's why the ? at the end.  I myself thought at the time it was for me.  Now, not so much.  I do believe if you go around pissing a lot of people off they will do something to cause you harm.  It's not a curse, what do you call it?  I usually call it bad karma, but if karma doesn't exist what is it really called?  Revenge, it's called revenge when it is dished out by a human.  It is called a curse when dished out by a God or supernaturally.  I think I'm getting somewhere now.  Thanks tonus.  Great inspiration.

It's wiki's def. as well and I think everybody's here.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #85 on: May 23, 2013, 09:41:10 AM »
Quick question Junebug,

Saudi Arabia has an abominable human rights record yet hasn't suffered any natural disasters for centuries. They are also "blessed" with the largest oil reserves in the world[1] making them one of the richest countries in the world[2]

Have the, muslim, Saudis got something right?
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2244rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=2#sa
 2. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html?countryName=Saudi Arabia&countryCode=sa&regionCode=mde&rank=3#sa

I'm with 12Monkeys on that one.

me too.

But it could be argued that it looks like they have been blessed though[3].
I'm asking this as I would assume that a blessing is the opposite of a curse and has the same, albeit opposite, requirements
 3. the men at any rate

Scary thought.

Gotta go transplant a hosta. You all have a GRRRRRREAT DAY!!!!!!!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Jag

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #86 on: May 23, 2013, 09:50:19 AM »
Once again, I think I'm catching on.

jb, I'm going to restate your premise to see if I've figured out what you mean - please correct me if I get it wrong:

Is America experiencing a backlash of negative things because of the harm we have done to others throughout our countries history? Something of a karmic scale balancing act? What goes around, comes around?

Is that what you are saying, more or less?
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."