Is America Cursed?

[nogodsforme]

We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

Please explain. The earth was perfect at one time, and now it is not. So god made the earth nice and then messed it up because of the Adam and Eve? He made the whole earth tropical in climate, but added the deserts and polar regions later? Do you think that the volcanoes and tectonic movements and wind currents are due to human misbehavior? Or are you saying something else?

(Nerdy hat on.) And as for distance from the sun, the earth's distance varies during the year from 147 million km. to 152 million km. So, the earth can be 5 million km closer or 5 million km farther away during the year and we hardly notice. (I know I haven't noticed.) That means there is not one "perfect" distance from the sun, but a big range in which life on earth is possible. (Nerdy hat removed.)

I did kilometers for you MM.

[12 Monkeys]

We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

That's nice,but if we put you 200 miles outside a city,without food,water or simple tools you would probably die. One of the only reasons we are still here is that F**king is fun and we did it lots in the early years and kept the babies coming. With climate change and abundant over-population,the days on the planet for humans are numbered and NO God will be able to do anything to stop it.

 But then again you thumpers will just say Goddidit when the world comes to an end

[magicmiles]

I did kilometers for you MM.

And I appreciate it.

However, I am unable to help you with details, as I have no idea how it all works. God quite clearly just treats wrongdoing so much more harshly than we can fathom.

[Ambassador Pony]

It was taken by force from native americans

Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time had policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.

[magicmiles]

We have to work really hard to make the earth a nice place to live.

(That is why it is so strange that creationists try to argue that the planet earth is the "perfect" made-by-god home for humans. )

It was. Now it isn't. That's what the bible shows.

Of course, its pretty well placed in terms of its distance from the sun.

That's nice,but if we put you 200 miles outside a city,without food,water or simple tools you would probably die.

Probably. By the way, the cool kids give me distance in kilometers.

[magicmiles]

It was taken by force from native americans

Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time has policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.

I don't think 12M was really suggesting otherwise. He just likes taking an opportunity to remind Americans that many of them live on land that's only available because of intervention by europeans.

[Nam]

It was taken by force from native americans

Do natural disasters happen at a higher frequency in countries which have at one time has policies, or currently have policies to slaughter people and take their land? If so, Canada should have as many tornadoes.

I know this is going to sound crazy, but maybe such natural events have to do with climate and geography.

Don't forget all the countries in Central & South America plus the Caribbean.

-Nam

[Anfauglir]

It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

You missed this part of the question, Junebug.  Is that what you are suggesting?

Perhaps more to the point, you have been given a lot of information in this thread relating to the weather conditions in central US; or weather-related deaths in other countries; of similar levels of genocides and exploitation carried out in other countries, and how some of those countries have significant levels of weather-related deaths, and some do not.

I have two questions I would be interested in the answers to, Junebug.

First off, is your preferred explanation for central-US's level of tornados still "a curse", or are you now leaning more towards "natural result of terrain and climate in that area?"

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

[junebug72]

So do you think that America is cursed?

What, exactly and in the sense you use it, is a curse?
How do curses work? (The answer must not contain reference to magic or other supernatural causes.)
Who is able to curse things and what powers do they have to do this?

Simpleton answers like, "A curse is something you say and it happens." will score 0 marks, we want to know the physical mechanism relating the words to the event.

GB, I looked up "cursed" on wiki.  I would say if there is a source it would be human.  If enough people hate you and wish you harm, maybe that brings bad karma. It does define curses coming from magic and supernatural sources.  I think a pissed off human can cause some damage as well, like slashing tires, kill your grass, and recently this guy drove his tractor thru several of his neighbor's homes!  Then there is the tragic events of 911 and the other terrorist attacks.

The only reason I even bring it up is because it pisses me off when politicians say God Bless America, like we're the only country in the world.  They govern as Christians, if you can call it that.  In a way do you think if they believe we're cursed they would change their ways?  I think if you make enough enemies you curse yourself.

As far as weather disasters, are we making more intense weather because of our pollution?  If this is true this would also be a self inflicted curse. 

Good thing about curses is they go away when you learn your lesson, don't you think.  You know make amends and say I'm sorry.

[junebug72]

Junebug, in the other thread you were saying that life was a gift. Now you think the same life is cursed.

Gift, curse... care to make up your mind?

Well it's both. Bittersweet, is it not?

[Anfauglir]

I would say if there is a source it would be human.  If enough people hate you and wish you harm, maybe that brings bad karma.

Interesting point of view.  Do you feel there is a critical number of haters for a curse to take effect, or is there a sliding scale?  Is it purely a "quantity" thing, or does it vary depending on the scale of the hate - i.e. does one person seriously hating you cause the same level of curse to fall on you as ten people vaguely disliking you?  (Not implying those are actual numbers, but you see what I mean).

As far as weather disasters, are we making more intense weather because of our pollution?  If this is true this would also be a self inflicted curse. 

Not really, not in the sense that most people would use the term.  Because if the weather disasters are a natural effect of pollution, then "hate" (as you imply above) would not be a feature at all.  The same weather effects would occur if we polluted to the same level and loved everyone, as if we polluted to the same level and really hated everyone.

So I'm confused now - are you suggesting the weather effects are the natural and logical and scientific result of particular industrial processes?  Originally you suggested it was some kind of karmic thing that was happening because of the US' treatment of some races, and thus (presumably) would be happening even if pollution was zero?

Good thing about curses is they go away when you learn your lesson, don't you think.  You know make amends and say I'm sorry.

Do they?  I suppose if you believe they are the direct result of an action then possibly - if weather comes from pollution, then cease pollution and you cease the weather.  But if we're talking some kind of karmic effect from people hating you, then would the curse effect cease immediately?  What if the person still hates you even AFTER you've said sorry?  Do you believe the curse would stop, or keep going? 

[junebug72]

Is Bangladesh cursed?  The Sudan?  They certainly have more weather related deaths per year than the US.  And weather in those nations has destroyed attempts at creating and maintaining the kind of infrastructure that we in the first world are accustomed to.

But why focus just on weather?  There are so many natural disasters.  We've seen Japan devastated by a tsunami, and a few years before that, the massive tsunami of 2004 killed hundreds of thousands of people.  Earthquakes?  Haiti is still recovering from the devastation of its most recent earthquake.  Mexico City, Santiago Chile, and so many other national capitals have been devastated in recent decades. 

Corporate greed (you hate greed, right?) has sure as hell caused hundreds of thousands of deaths (if not more) in recent decades.  From the struggle over mining coltan in the Congo to the US State Department intervention to support United Fruits profits in Central America, to the deadly factory conditions all over the third world, there is incomprehensible human suffering.  And the Oklahoma shelters in which these displaced families are temporarily living, are full of luxuries that most of the world does not have access to.   Clean water.  Electricity.  Food.  Wifi. 

Cursed?  The fact that such a huge percentage of our nation is composed of literate people who have leisure time to contemplate the question seems to indicate that our suffering and tragedies are minor compared to those of most of the rest of the world.

Very insightful post Quesi. 

Yes I hate greed.  After the Praise of Greed thread I have decided to scale greed 1-10.  I hate 8-10 and congratulate 5-7.  I would consider myself a 2.5. 

I agree with everything you have said in this post.  Great post.

[junebug72]

No more cursed than people who live in New Orleans who have to deal with frequent hurricanes, or people who live in California who have to deal with frequent earthquakes, or people who live in India who have to deal with monsoons, or people in Japan who have to deal with typhoons...the list goes on and on.

Please don't mistake weather and geological processes for something that's trying to punish human beings.

That's easier for you.  You do not believe in God.  I am not though.  Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

[The Gawd]

I wonder what jb's rationale for the continuous hurricane on a likely lifeless mars is...

[HAL]

Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

No -
   

curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse

You again have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You just throw words around with little knowledge of what they really mean. If you don't change the oil in your car you simply allow the chemistry and physics that go along with dirty oil to work it's affects on the engine. It has nothing to do with the definitions of a curse. Amazing.

[Mrjason]

I wonder what jb's rationale for the continuous hurricane on a likely lifeless mars is...

The people that don't live on Jupiter must have been really mean to the people that didn't live there before they errr didn't live there either[1]

1.	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot

[The Gawd]

The people that don't live on Jupiter must have been really mean to the people that didn't live there before they errr didn't live there either[1]

1.	http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Red_Spot#Great_Red_Spot

thank you, I meant Jupiter 

Was thinking red planet instead of red spot!
What makes this thread even worse is that june's manufactured god has used the demise of children to promote his doctrine of love. and june will hand wave it away.

[junebug72]

^^^Perfect example of WWoDT - Wonderful World of Double Think.

Examined in detail by Orwell in "1984"; message apparently missed or misunderstood by the majority of the public, sadly.

Orwell- Born 1903 under the name Eric Arthur Blair, was a political novelist best known for Animal Farm and 1984.

http://www.isreview.org/issues/32/orwell.shtml


sounds like a good read.

[magicmiles]

^^ Animal Farm is a great read. Contains minor symbolism.

[junebug72]

I wonder what jb's rationale for the continuous hurricane on a likely lifeless mars is...

That was an inappropriate smite Hal.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

[The Gawd]

That was an inappropriate smite Gawd.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

Two things, A) I didnt smite you... I have only ever given MAYBE 3 smites EVER. Yes you did receive one, but not now. Read better.

B) read animal farm in 5th grade. I think it may fly right over your head due to reading gaffes like the one above

@ MM, animal farm is ALL symbolism... how you could call it minor is beyond me

[junebug72]

Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

No -
   

curse  (kûrs)
n.
1.
a. An appeal or prayer for evil or misfortune to befall someone or something.
b. The evil or misfortune that comes in or as if in response to such an appeal: bewailed the curse of ill health.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/curse

You again have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You just throw words around with little knowledge of what they really mean. If you don't change the oil in your car you simply allow the chemistry and physics that go along with dirty oil to work it's affects on the engine. It has nothing to do with the definitions of a curse. Amazing.

You idiot.  Don't your brain get creative?  It's a damn curse if I'm on my way to the hospital with my daughter-in-law in labor!!!  I guarantee you I would curse like a sailor.  You are very careless with your smites!!!

[HAL]

That was an inappropriate smite Hal.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Go ahead and keep making a fool of yourself here - it's entertaining.

[magicmiles]

@ MM, animal farm is ALL symbolism... how you could call it minor is beyond me

Deliberate understatement for the purpose of light-hearted humour.

[The Gawd]

*smites self*

[junebug72]

It did however get me to thinking that maybe America is cursed.  It was taken by force from native americans and enslaved and beat Africans for hundreds of years. 

So your contention is that there were no (or significantly fewer) tornados in the US before around the 1600s?

You missed this part of the question, Junebug.  Is that what you are suggesting?

Perhaps more to the point, you have been given a lot of information in this thread relating to the weather conditions in central US; or weather-related deaths in other countries; of similar levels of genocides and exploitation carried out in other countries, and how some of those countries have significant levels of weather-related deaths, and some do not.

I have two questions I would be interested in the answers to, Junebug.

First off, is your preferred explanation for central-US's level of tornados still "a curse", or are you now leaning more towards "natural result of terrain and climate in that area?"

And the second question.....how much research did you do on tornados et al before asking here "is America cursed"?  I know you did some, because you quote the difference between tornados in Canada and the US.  What I am interested in is whether you got that far, and thought "maybe America is cursed", or whether you read further first to discover what we know about how tornados form?

Like i said in the OP I was really curious to hear from Christians on the subject.  So far I've only seen MM and his answers are vague.  Unless I've missed it I haven't seen a direct answer to the question.  I gather he's European and may not have much of an opinion on American curses.  The reason for that is I know a lot of Christians and every time something like this happens they say it's the wrath of God.  They see it as signs of Armageddon.

Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

[junebug72]

That was an inappropriate smite Hal.  I never said I thought we were cursed only asked the question.  You are careless with smites.  The English language allows metaphorical use of words.  What is bad karma but you cursing me?  And for no good reason at all.

You clearly have no fucking idea what you are talking about. Go ahead and keep making a fool of yourself here - it's entertaining.

The only person making a fool is you.   You are smiting and making fun of me for a position I do not hold. lmao

[HAL]

Is there anything you can do about the unworthy smite from Hal? How do you protest a smite?  I bet I've given  everyone on page 1 a thumbs up this morning and then Hal had to go and drop the smite bomb.

Tough shit. I gave a reason for it, and if I see any more ridiculous claims or idiotic quips I'll give you another one. If you don't want smites, don't say silly things like

Say I don't change the oil in my car.  Have I not cursed myself to have engine failure?

 

[junebug72]

@ MM, animal farm is ALL symbolism... how you could call it minor is beyond me

Deliberate understatement for the purpose of light-hearted humour.

Sorry MM, that's why I said I might have missed it.  I'm all over the place this morning.