Author Topic: Your favorite arguments for creationism  (Read 6904 times)

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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #58 on: September 26, 2013, 01:49:20 PM »
Your Christian friend will often say that science proves god because it was all designed, but if you show something different the argument suddenly changes to "science cannot disprove god". It is the same with historical texts. They say they can prove everything with texts, but you are not allowed to disprove anything. "The mystery of the resurrection cannot be understood by historical methods".

Proof is always one way.

I am surprised how often atheists have also bought into this confused thinking. Many statements by atheists online begin with "science cannot disprove god but....." This is just parroting what Christians say. Atheists should not repeat it.

Historical and scientific research have both already disproved the Christian god. Evolution alone disproves the creation of humans and original sin, a need for a jesus as redeemer or a creator god. It is only because of the usual confused thinking that Christians won't admit it.

The only god which cannot be disproved is one which does not know the universe exists and/or does not care that the universe exists. No religious person is following that god, well maybe some are.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #59 on: September 26, 2013, 01:50:26 PM »
The only god which cannot be disproved is one which does not know the universe exists and/or does not care that the universe exists. No religious person is following that god, well maybe some are.

Ever heard of deism?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #60 on: September 26, 2013, 02:12:34 PM »
Deism was the most rational position in the eighteenth century but less so since Darwin and impossible since quantum mechanics which excludes cause, design, control, or purpose.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #61 on: September 26, 2013, 02:24:43 PM »
Deism was the most rational position in the eighteenth century but less so since Darwin and impossible since quantum mechanics which excludes cause, design, control, or purpose.

I did not speak of its validity as a religious position. I just asked if you had heard of it. Apparently you have.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline dorke222

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #62 on: September 28, 2013, 01:53:58 PM »
Maybe not crazy, but my most favorite are irreducible complexness and the excellent adjusting discussion. These are my favorites...

Online One Above All

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #63 on: September 28, 2013, 01:56:59 PM »
Maybe not crazy, but my most favorite are irreducible complexness

It's "complexity".

and the excellent adjusting discussion.

Never heard of that argument.[1] Mind describing it?
 1. Or maybe I have, but with another name.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #64 on: September 28, 2013, 02:35:49 PM »
Deism was the most rational position in the eighteenth century but less so since Darwin and impossible since quantum mechanics which excludes cause, design, control, or purpose.

The theory of evolution and physics do not discredit a Deist's god.
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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #65 on: September 28, 2013, 02:41:05 PM »
The theory of evolution and physics do not discredit a Deist's god.

You're right about evolution, but physics does discredit a deist god.
Put simply, time and space are a requirement for interaction and/or existence. The deist god exists outside the universe (since the universe didn't exist until it created it), and therefore outside of time and space. Ergo, the deist god cannot exist.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #66 on: September 28, 2013, 02:41:45 PM »
Here is my favorite proof of god. 

Spirals!  I mean, nature certainly could not have come up with this by itself.  This is PROOF of a creator.


Offline Zankuu

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #67 on: September 28, 2013, 02:53:20 PM »
Put simply, time and space are a requirement for interaction and/or existence. The deist god exists outside the universe (since the universe didn't exist until it created it), and therefore outside of time and space. Ergo, the deist god cannot exist.

Not to get into an argument about shit neither of us believe in, but I'll play Devil's Advocate and ask: Why can't a deistic god exist outside of space/time? I'll grant that time and space are requirements for interaction and/or existence for natural beings. But does this hypothetical deist's god have any limitations? If not, transcending space/time could be an attribute of the deist's god.

This is one reason I don't argue with deists. This type of god has no measurable effects on the universe. There is absolutely no difference between a natural world with no gods and a natural world with this supernatural god that doesn't do jack.
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Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #68 on: September 28, 2013, 06:38:47 PM »
ChristianForums.net/Christian Topics/Christianity & Science/Creation and Evolution Presentation/Post #9(currently)




Quote from turnorburn:

Quote
Every science class i attended in school used science to teach a humanistic world view and from what i know about humanism it is diametrically opposed to faith, humanism is a religion, Satan style.. the theory of evolution is totally humanistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic

tob

Offline viocjit

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #69 on: September 29, 2013, 02:10:45 PM »
<snip>
Quote
Every science class i attended in school used science to teach a humanistic world view and from what i know about humanism it is diametrically opposed to faith, humanism is a religion, Satan style.. the theory of evolution is totally humanistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic

tob

+1 to share with us this message. Seriously "humanism" can't be consideresd as a religion like "humanists" doesn't believe in supernatural.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #70 on: September 29, 2013, 02:36:05 PM »
<snip>
Quote
Every science class i attended in school used science to teach a humanistic world view and from what i know about humanism it is diametrically opposed to faith, humanism is a religion, Satan style.. the theory of evolution is totally humanistic.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanistic

tob

+1 to share with us this message. Seriously "humanism" can't be consideresd as a religion like "humanists" doesn't believe in supernatural.
Thanks for the +1.

And, I mean, look at the dude's username. "Turnorburn". Really? What a bunch of whack jobs.
Enough with your bullshit.
. . . Mr. Friday . . . that post really is golden.

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #71 on: September 29, 2013, 02:44:02 PM »
Zankuu,

There is a more fundamental reason why quantum mechanics disproves a deist god. Quantum mechanics does not allow cause, design, control or purpose by a god. If there was a deist god quantum mechanics shows that he must be one who acts as though he does not exist.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #72 on: September 29, 2013, 10:33:11 PM »
Another horrid argument.

Evolution is real, but was made from god, because god is all powerful.
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #73 on: September 29, 2013, 11:23:31 PM »
There is a more fundamental reason why quantum mechanics disproves a deist god. Quantum mechanics does not allow cause, design, control or purpose by a god.
How?

If there was a deist god quantum mechanics shows that he must be one who acts as though he does not exist.
How?
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #74 on: September 30, 2013, 03:25:49 AM »
A and A, you are assuming that evolution had a predetermined end. Humans are just an accident who in the distant future will be dug up and put in museums by the next intelligent species on the planet. There is an incredible amount of vanity in supposing that evolution was designed just for you.

Zankuu, all I can say is that a quantum universe needs no cause and does not allow a deist definition of god. There are no familiar analogies that I can use to explain this science.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #75 on: September 30, 2013, 03:48:02 AM »
A and A, you are assuming that evolution had a predetermined end. Humans are just an accident who in the distant future will be dug up and put in museums by the next intelligent species on the planet. There is an incredible amount of vanity in supposing that evolution was designed just for you.

Yes, because an all powerful being who could do literally anything he wanted made such a pathetic species called humans, with so many flaws you would think a designer of the species suffered a stroke after being intoxicated on magic mushrooms.

Not only this, but he makes evolution, despite his holy word saying he made humans from dust and a rib, because hey, why not mess with puny mortal minds.

I also severely doubt there will be another intelligent creature on earth, i assume humans will end up in some ridiculous war or mess up the planet to unsurvivable levels.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #76 on: September 30, 2013, 04:35:59 AM »
The evidence does not support anything except natural selection. Do you know that humans were lucky not to go extinct early on? Do you know that humans are not descended from a single prehuman species but interbred with others as they liked? If you take DNA from people around the world, you find different prehuman DNA. There was no design of a pure human from a single lineage.

Your ideas about god are not serious but hopefully you will learn some science on this site.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 04:51:37 AM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #77 on: September 30, 2013, 04:56:17 AM »
The evidence does not support anything except natural selection. Do you know that humans were lucky not to go extinct early on? Do you know that humans are not descended from a single prehuman species but interbred with others as they liked? If you take DNA from people around the world, you find different prehuman DNA. There was no design of a pure human from a single lineage.

Citation needed.

Also, humans have only existed under a million years or so, so we may end up extinct early, time wise.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #78 on: September 30, 2013, 05:03:54 AM »
Any of this is easily searchable on the internet. You better get searching for your exams if you are 16. This is elementary knowledge.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #79 on: September 30, 2013, 05:37:01 AM »
Any of this is easily searchable on the internet. You better get searching for your exams if you are 16. This is elementary knowledge.

We generally don't learn such things here, unless you are in the biology class, which is next year.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #80 on: September 30, 2013, 06:14:46 AM »

We generally don't learn such things here, unless you are in the biology class, which is next year.

What can I say?
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #81 on: September 30, 2013, 06:42:08 AM »

We generally don't learn such things here, unless you are in the biology class, which is next year.

What can I say?

You could make a joke about australians, schools or tulpae?
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #82 on: September 30, 2013, 02:19:00 PM »
Zankuu, all I can say is that a quantum universe needs no cause and does not allow a deist definition of god.
You keep saying that, and I understand and agree with you that the universe we live in needs no causal agent. But what you're doing is claiming that quantum mechanics disproves a deistic god. I'm asking you how it does this. How does quantum mechanics not allow cause, design, control or purpose by a supernatural being?

There are no familiar analogies that I can use to explain this science.
I'm not asking for an analogy, I'm asking you to explain the science itself. Why do you believe this? What argument convinced you? Cite anything.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #83 on: September 30, 2013, 02:36:22 PM »
I am assuming that a deist god creates or controls the universe, using the original meaning similar to a watchmaker. Are you using the same assumption?
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Offline Zankuu

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #84 on: September 30, 2013, 03:08:30 PM »
I am assuming that a deist god creates or controls the universe, using the original meaning similar to a watchmaker. Are you using the same assumption?
Sure. It's the idea that a god created the universe by originally setting things in motion. We have no way of testing the existence of this god or understanding it. This type of god could be observing this universe or it could have left upon creating it or it could be dead. We don't know and probably can't know. I want to know how you're filling the gap between quantum mechanics exists > quantum mechanics disproves this god.
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Online Fiji

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #85 on: September 30, 2013, 03:19:33 PM »
This type of god could be observing this universe ...

Not even that ... observer effect and all that. If a god IS watching us, there should be some way in which to detect him/her/it/penguin doing so. And at that point, this god ceases to be purely deist.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Your favorite arguments for creationism
« Reply #86 on: September 30, 2013, 03:44:21 PM »
Just dealing with the creation aspect, a god who started everything. Physicists have discovered that the universe can create itself through quantum fluctuations and that the amount of energy needed to form any universe is zero. Therefore no extra energy from a god is necessary. There are videos about this on YouTube. Lawrence Krauss has some hour long talks called - a universe from nothing. I have also seen a religious debate where the Oxford university chemist Atkins uses this argument. Atkins is famous for his university texts on chemistry.

This is not exactly the science I was thinking about above but it is closely related.

I have just been reminded that I started a thread called - in the beginning was...what ?
It compared the religious story with science in more detail. It is worth reading if you want to debate with Christians about the beginning of the universe.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2013, 04:03:25 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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