Author Topic: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon  (Read 3627 times)

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Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #87 on: May 21, 2013, 05:16:01 AM »
Holybuckets,

You use the bible as the basis for your Christianity but why have you chosen the account of Jesus as your choice of religion rather than, say, Islam whose leader met the angel Gabriel and was permitted to see the seven levels of heaven?

I'd like to know why you made your choice.
Muhammad is buried in a grave. According to the Bible Jesus rose from the dead. Here is a link of various religious leaders burial sites. The difference is that there is only one grave that is empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #88 on: May 21, 2013, 05:18:33 AM »
So you agree you have no evidence to disprove that Jesus rose from the dead....

So you agree you have no evidence to disprove any claims made by the Koran and the Veda.....

I repeat: Why should your mystical claims be given any special consideration over any others, when (according to you) none can be disproved?  Why should we NOT treat them all equally?
I gave my answer in the post above- because, according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and rose form the dead. This is my claim. The evidence behind the claim is the Bible.

The evidence that jesus didn't rise from the dead is that humans do not rise from the dead.
You have no evidence that he did. where is this undying man now?
Where is your evidence to support your claim?

Online Mrjason

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #89 on: May 21, 2013, 05:18:55 AM »
Holybuckets,

You use the bible as the basis for your Christianity but why have you chosen the account of Jesus as your choice of religion rather than, say, Islam whose leader met the angel Gabriel and was permitted to see the seven levels of heaven?

I'd like to know why you made your choice.
Muhammad is buried in a grave. According to the Bible Jesus rose from the dead. Here is a link of various religious leaders burial sites. The difference is that there is only one grave that is empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions

an empty grave means nothing.
Richard the III's known grave is now empty. Is he divine too?

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #90 on: May 21, 2013, 05:20:05 AM »
I repeat: Why should your mystical claims be given any special consideration over any others, when (according to you) none can be disproved?  Why should we NOT treat them all equally?
I gave my answer in the post above- because, according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and rose form the dead. This is my claim. The evidence behind the claim is the Bible.

So what?  Osiris came back from the dead as well.  Hercules conquered death.  Dionysus was resurrected.  Appolonius of Tyana was crucified and rose from the tomb.   Orpheus nearly brought someone back from the dead.

You - as you have admitted - cannot disprove any of them.

So I ask again.  What makes YOUR magical claim any more valid than any other?
Are you making the claim that Jesus is a myth and did not walk the face of the earth? Where is your evidence?

Online Mrjason

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #91 on: May 21, 2013, 05:22:39 AM »
So you agree you have no evidence to disprove that Jesus rose from the dead....

So you agree you have no evidence to disprove any claims made by the Koran and the Veda.....

I repeat: Why should your mystical claims be given any special consideration over any others, when (according to you) none can be disproved?  Why should we NOT treat them all equally?
I gave my answer in the post above- because, according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and rose form the dead. This is my claim. The evidence behind the claim is the Bible.

The evidence that jesus didn't rise from the dead is that humans do not rise from the dead.
You have no evidence that he did. where is this undying man now?
Where is your evidence to support your claim?

The documented history of humanity. The nature of time. Entropy. Thermodynamics...
everything decays. energy and matter change form. they don't change back.

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #92 on: May 21, 2013, 05:30:09 AM »
Holybuckets,

You use the bible as the basis for your Christianity but why have you chosen the account of Jesus as your choice of religion rather than, say, Islam whose leader met the angel Gabriel and was permitted to see the seven levels of heaven?

I'd like to know why you made your choice.
Muhammad is buried in a grave. According to the Bible Jesus rose from the dead. Here is a link of various religious leaders burial sites. The difference is that there is only one grave that is empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions

an empty grave means nothing.
Richard the III's known grave is now empty. Is he divine too?
Richard III body has been found "On 4 February 2013, the University of Leicester confirmed that the skeleton was beyond reasonable doubt that of King Richard III. This conclusion was based on mitochondrial DNA evidence"


source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #93 on: May 21, 2013, 05:31:41 AM »

Are you making the claim that Jesus is a myth and did not walk the face of the earth? Where is your evidence?

Actually, you are still working the wrong way round. Proving a negative is more or less impossible unless there is a factual claim that can be shown wrong. Thus, you already know that proving the claims of religious events that took place thousands of years ago cannot be done. That is your premise. That is pointless.

However, reversing the need for proof or at least reasonable evidence puts the onus on you to come up with something more than the claim in a holy book. Sure there's the claim in there and sure there is not grave marked with Jesus name anywhere, though, or course, that doesn't mean a grave of jesus might not be found one day so the 'empty grave' claim is no mare than a claim.

So, let's try and do something that is at least possible. Based on your claim about Jesus, what can you tell us that might convince us that Jesus is not dead but still lives today? Does he do anything we can see today, for example?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #94 on: May 21, 2013, 05:32:13 AM »
So you agree you have no evidence to disprove that Jesus rose from the dead....

So you agree you have no evidence to disprove any claims made by the Koran and the Veda.....

I repeat: Why should your mystical claims be given any special consideration over any others, when (according to you) none can be disproved?  Why should we NOT treat them all equally?
I gave my answer in the post above- because, according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and rose form the dead. This is my claim. The evidence behind the claim is the Bible.

The evidence that jesus didn't rise from the dead is that humans do not rise from the dead.
You have no evidence that he did. where is this undying man now?
Where is your evidence to support your claim?

The documented history of humanity. The nature of time. Entropy. Thermodynamics...
everything decays. energy and matter change form. they don't change back.
These appear to be your opinions. Please, once again, where is your evidence to support your claim that Jesus did not rise from the dead? Can you please cite your sources.

Online Mrjason

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #95 on: May 21, 2013, 05:32:54 AM »
Holybuckets,

You use the bible as the basis for your Christianity but why have you chosen the account of Jesus as your choice of religion rather than, say, Islam whose leader met the angel Gabriel and was permitted to see the seven levels of heaven?

I'd like to know why you made your choice.
Muhammad is buried in a grave. According to the Bible Jesus rose from the dead. Here is a link of various religious leaders burial sites. The difference is that there is only one grave that is empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions

an empty grave means nothing.
Richard the III's known grave is now empty. Is he divine too?
Richard III body has been found "On 4 February 2013, the University of Leicester confirmed that the skeleton was beyond reasonable doubt that of King Richard III. This conclusion was based on mitochondrial DNA evidence"


source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England

Exactly. The remains are now in a lab at the university of leicester. Thus his known grave is empty.

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #96 on: May 21, 2013, 05:36:58 AM »

Are you making the claim that Jesus is a myth and did not walk the face of the earth? Where is your evidence?

Actually, you are still working the wrong way round. Proving a negative is more or less impossible unless there is a factual claim that can be shown wrong. Thus, you already know that proving the claims of religious events that took place thousands of years ago cannot be done. That is your premise. That is pointless.

However, reversing the need for proof or at least reasonable evidence puts the onus on you to come up with something more than the claim in a holy book. Sure there's the claim in there and sure there is not grave marked with Jesus name anywhere, though, or course, that doesn't mean a grave of jesus might not be found one day so the 'empty grave' claim is no mare than a claim.

So, let's try and do something that is at least possible. Based on your claim about Jesus, what can you tell us that might convince us that Jesus is not dead but still lives today? Does he do anything we can see today, for example?
So, you are agreeing with me that you do not have evidence to dispute this claim? The claim that Jesus rose form the dead has passed the test of time, I do not feel that more evidence is needed. I have provided evidence. You have admitted you have nothing to dispute it.

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #97 on: May 21, 2013, 05:38:30 AM »
Holybuckets,

You use the bible as the basis for your Christianity but why have you chosen the account of Jesus as your choice of religion rather than, say, Islam whose leader met the angel Gabriel and was permitted to see the seven levels of heaven?

I'd like to know why you made your choice.
Muhammad is buried in a grave. According to the Bible Jesus rose from the dead. Here is a link of various religious leaders burial sites. The difference is that there is only one grave that is empty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burial_places_of_founders_of_world_religions

an empty grave means nothing.
Richard the III's known grave is now empty. Is he divine too?
Richard III body has been found "On 4 February 2013, the University of Leicester confirmed that the skeleton was beyond reasonable doubt that of King Richard III. This conclusion was based on mitochondrial DNA evidence"


source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England

Exactly. The remains are now in a lab at the university of leicester. Thus his known grave is empty.
Do you mind if I use this one? It's good!

Online Mrjason

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #98 on: May 21, 2013, 05:43:16 AM »
These appear to be your opinions. Please, once again, where is your evidence to support your claim that Jesus did not rise from the dead? Can you please cite your sources.

Ok. I'll start here for a breif description of mortality- http://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/your-body-wasnt-built-to-last-a-lesson-from-human-mortality-rates/

Humans are mortal. Our bodies will eventually die because they can nolonger replace worn out cells due to a shortening of telomeres[1]

agreed?
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #99 on: May 21, 2013, 05:43:55 AM »

So, you are agreeing with me that you do not have evidence to dispute this claim? The claim that Jesus rose form the dead has passed the test of time, I do not feel that more evidence is needed. I have provided evidence. You have admitted you have nothing to dispute it.

Whether or not anyone wants to dispute this claim, the fact is that you are making the claim and it matters not that this claim has been made for 2,000 years. Its still doesn't make it any more than a claim. You have failed to provide anything other than the bible to substantiate the claim. I have asked about Jesus today - does he do anything in this world but you have failed to answer.

PLease give us some other positive reasons why your claim is any better than the claim by Joseph Smith to have met and angel and to have translated gold plates - plates that were witness by various other people.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #100 on: May 21, 2013, 05:47:34 AM »

So, you are agreeing with me that you do not have evidence to dispute this claim? The claim that Jesus rose form the dead has passed the test of time, I do not feel that more evidence is needed. I have provided evidence. You have admitted you have nothing to dispute it.

Whether or not anyone wants to dispute this claim, the fact is that you are making the claim and it matters not that this claim has been made for 2,000 years. Its still doesn't make it any more than a claim. You have failed to provide anything other than the bible to substantiate the claim. I have asked about Jesus today - does he do anything in this world but you have failed to answer.

PLease give us some other positive reasons why your claim is any better than the claim by Joseph Smith to have met and angel and to have translated gold plates - plates that were witness by various other people.
Here is how debate works. I state a claim and give evidence. Now, what is your claim and where is your evidence? I am done making my claim. In debate, if you fail to make a claim. You lose the argument. This is how debate works.

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #101 on: May 21, 2013, 05:51:09 AM »
These appear to be your opinions. Please, once again, where is your evidence to support your claim that Jesus did not rise from the dead? Can you please cite your sources.

Ok. I'll start here for a breif description of mortality- http://gravityandlevity.wordpress.com/2009/07/08/your-body-wasnt-built-to-last-a-lesson-from-human-mortality-rates/

Humans are mortal. Our bodies will eventually die because they can nolonger replace worn out cells due to a shortening of telomeres[1]

agreed?
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telomere
My claim is that Jesus claimed to be God and rose from the dead. I cited the Bible as my reference.  Do you have any evidence that would dispute that claim.  Can you please explain your argument about cells and telomeres a bit more? I am not seeing the connection.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #102 on: May 21, 2013, 06:06:18 AM »
I gave my answer in the post above- because, according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and rose form the dead. This is my claim. The evidence behind the claim is the Bible.

You are not making any claims about Jesus.  You are simply repeating claims that you have read in the bible.  Thus, the bible itself is not evidence.  The bible is the claim.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online Mrjason

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #103 on: May 21, 2013, 06:06:41 AM »
Quote from: holybuckets link=topic=24917.msg555228#msg555228
My claim is that Jesus claimed to be God and rose from the dead. I cited the Bible as my reference.  Do you have any evidence that would dispute that claim.  Can you please explain your argument about cells and telomeres a bit more? I am not seeing the connection.

The point of that post it to prove that people die. Whether through catastrophic injury or simply being worn out.

The next point is that time travels only in 1 direction.
this is shown by entropy[1]

Vis once a state has been reached, in this case the expiration of the body, it will not reverse itself
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_law_of_thermodynamics

Offline Razel

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #104 on: May 21, 2013, 06:20:16 AM »
Quote
Here is how debate works. I state a claim and give evidence. Now, what is your claim and where is your evidence? I am done making my claim. In debate, if you fail to make a claim. You lose the argument. This is how debate works.

It's not, really.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #105 on: May 21, 2013, 07:44:14 AM »
I repeat: Why should your mystical claims be given any special consideration over any others, when (according to you) none can be disproved?  Why should we NOT treat them all equally?
I gave my answer in the post above- because, according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and rose form the dead. This is my claim. The evidence behind the claim is the Bible.

So what?  Osiris came back from the dead as well.  Hercules conquered death.  Dionysus was resurrected.  Appolonius of Tyana was crucified and rose from the tomb.   Orpheus nearly brought someone back from the dead.

You - as you have admitted - cannot disprove any of them.

So I ask again.  What makes YOUR magical claim any more valid than any other?
Are you making the claim that Jesus is a myth and did not walk the face of the earth? Where is your evidence?

Are YOU making the claim that Osiris is a myth and didn't walk the face of the earth?  That Dionysus is a myth?  That Appolonius is a myth?  Where is YOUR evidence?

All those stories are identical, so far as I can see.  Why should YOUR chosen tale be given priority over any of the others?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #106 on: May 21, 2013, 08:19:48 AM »
Where is your evidence to support your claim?

1. Really?  You need evidence that humans do not rise from the dead? To ask for evidence for that seems trivial and silly to me.
2. What evidence would be left behind by an obscure, first century, jewish criminal not rising from the dead?



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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #107 on: May 21, 2013, 08:32:09 AM »
My point to you is that myths are easy to create and you cant prove Christianity wrong. If you have any evidence to counter those claims, I will be more than happy to see what you have.
Yes, myths are easy to create.  They also can't be proven wrong.  Exactly as you claim about Christianity.

This is why people ask for evidence and proof to support claims like that.  Because it really is easy to make stuff up, and it's impossible to prove any of it wrong without it first being proven right.

People can do it with science too.  That's why science is built around the concept of finding evidence to support your claim before you present it, so that other people can verify that it's real and legit based on your own findings.  Imagine if people said, "I claim that cold fusion is real and happening, but if you have evidence to counter this claim, I'll be more than happy to see what you have".  People would waste a lot of time and effort having to search out places that might be doing cold fusion, and no matter how many places they looked, there would always be more.  They could never prove it wrong.

Thus, the onus is on the person making the claim to provide proof to support it.  If that same person instead said, "I believe cold fusion is happening at this testing facility, because of this, this, and this", it would be a claim that people could reasonably check on.  I see no reason that we should exclude religion from the requirement to provide proof.  Indeed, one of the biggest problems with religion is that people are so willing to blithely accept it without evidence or proof.

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #108 on: May 21, 2013, 09:12:00 AM »
Thus, the onus is on the person making the claim to provide proof to support it. 
Yes and thanks.
I have made the claim that according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and was resurrected. Jesus is my claim and the Bible is my evidence. What is your claim?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #109 on: May 21, 2013, 09:19:36 AM »
Jesus is my claim and the Bible is my evidence.

Wrong.  You are repeating a claim made by the bible, and you have no evidence.
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Offline kin hell

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #110 on: May 21, 2013, 09:20:52 AM »
Thus, the onus is on the person making the claim to provide proof to support it. 
Yes and thanks.
I have made the claim that according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and was resurrected. Jesus is my claim and the Bible is my evidence. What is your claim?

...shame that your source material is so hilariously flawed and error filled. Hardly credible supporting evidence. Lucky you choose to just believe, and are not required to display any intellectual honesty whatsoever. I cannot imagine what your internal dialogue would be like if honest rational appraisal ever encroached on your fantasy life.
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all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #111 on: May 21, 2013, 09:29:59 AM »
Jesus is my claim and the Bible is my evidence.

Wrong.  You are repeating a claim made by the bible, and you have no evidence.
Wrong, the claim of the resurrection can be found outside the Bible as well. The claim is the resurrection. The evidence is the Bible. According to Freely and Steinberg (2000) there are several sources of evidence. They include: evidence that is well known, public or private writings, and testimony of witnesses.

Freeley & Stienberg (2000). Argumentation and debate. Wadsworth: Belmont CA

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #112 on: May 21, 2013, 09:33:00 AM »
Thus, the onus is on the person making the claim to provide proof to support it. 
Yes and thanks.
I have made the claim that according to the Bible Jesus claimed to be God and was resurrected. Jesus is my claim and the Bible is my evidence. What is your claim?

...shame that your source material is so hilariously flawed and error filled. Hardly credible supporting evidence. Lucky you choose to just believe, and are not required to display any intellectual honesty whatsoever. I cannot imagine what your internal dialogue would be like if honest rational appraisal ever encroached on your fantasy life.
In a debate, you have given an invalid response. Do you have a claim and evidence you wish to contribute?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #113 on: May 21, 2013, 09:33:10 AM »
The resurrection of Osiris can be found in dozens of books.  I don't understand how holybuckets can deny the clear evidence that it happened.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #114 on: May 21, 2013, 09:45:27 AM »
The resurrection of Osiris can be found in dozens of books.  I don't understand how holybuckets can deny the clear evidence that it happened.
Good side-step.
I have made a claim and presented evidence. Your claim does nothing to refute mine. Osiris is irrelevant in proving/disproving Jesus resurrection as found in the Bible.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Don't expect an atheist president anytime soon
« Reply #115 on: May 21, 2013, 09:59:37 AM »
Wrong, the claim of the resurrection can be found outside the Bible as well. The claim is the resurrection.

The claim that Harry Potter flies on a broomstick can be found in "Harry Potter and the Philosophers' Stone" but it is not only found there, it is found in Companion Books: http://hpcompanion.com/chapterbychapter/.

Not only that, but there have been reviews by many trusted and independent writers in newspapers and critics on TV!

"The claim of flying on broomsticks can be found outside "Harry Potter and the Philosophers' Stone" as well. The claim is flying on broomsticks."

Now, I hope you see that your argument fails. You have swallowed the Bible, hook, line and sinker. You believe, in the first place, that the Bible is true. For anyone else looking at it, it would need some proof that it is true.

First you will be able to explain why the Gospel of Mark - the original gospel that the others copied - has no mention of the resurrection.

Next, the sources that you will quote are not reliable. You will find that in all cases, the writer is reporting what someone else told him - none of the writers saw Jesus and none of them witnessed any miracles and none of them saw a man who had come back from the dead. All reports were written after Christ's alleged crucifixion.

The main writers around at the time, were numerous. There was trouble in Jerusalem and many writers went there but despite a man who could control storms, walk on water, cured the deaf, blind and lame and feed 9000 people with loves and fish, and despite the allegation that when he died (temporarily) the sky went dark, and dead bodies rose from their graves and walked about, not one Roman or Jew saw fit to report these amazing happenings!

How likely is that?

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce