Author Topic: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...  (Read 2653 times)

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Online wheels5894

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2013, 06:00:12 AM »
What I am demonstrating is a clear logical flaw in there NOT being an objective morality. Does someone have somekind of answer for that, all I have done is shown that a subjective morality makes no logical sense. So you must  demonstrate that as flawed logic, accept the existence of an objective morality, or claim there is no morality that coincides with a logical universe.

Maybe, but there are problems for your view that there is an objective morality (OM) and these problems are, I suspect not resolvable. Even if there is such as thing as OM it is still no use to anyone unless they can find out just what it is. one cannot follow a set of rules without knowing what they are.

Then there is the problem that people clearly do not know what the rules are are they have changed over the centuries. Slavery was once fine - even the bible like it - yet Wilberforce and others decided the bible opposed slavery and finally it was abolished. Human sacrifice was once though to be fine but no one goes with it now. Pork was something that was banned along with shellfish but now we happily eat both.

So, the problems condense to the fact that no one seems to know about a single set of of rules despite all the various holy books which are all different. We therefore have to account for this fact that, if there is a god and he holds the OM, why is he so coy when it comes to telling people what it is?

The alternative view, that there is no OM and that people produce their own morals, fits the facts far better than that there is a god holding the OM but not communicating it. That there is no OM also fits the facts of the quite moral behaviour of various animal groups - monkeys and apes are just a couple of them - without, presumably, any written code or a concept of a god.

So, mhaberling, you need to show us how there can be OM without anyone knowing what it is or, frankly, your idea is 'dead in the water'.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Online jetson

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #59 on: May 18, 2013, 08:16:37 AM »
An "atheistic universe" is one where there is no god.  So you are asking if there is an "objective good" within a universe without a god.  Well, I say there is no objective good regardless of the existence of a god.  At least I can't see one, or even fathom it.

Murder is corruptive to a civilized society.  Killing, on the other hand, is usually considered defensive - a way to defend against a threat to your life.

IMO, most atheists believe that the world we live in - with no gods - looks exactly the same as the one you live in - with a god.  IOW, you can't make a distinction about a world with a god that an atheist can utilize to determine things like objective good. 

If there is a god, and this god provides an objective good for humans, what is it?  Tell me what is objectively good, and eliminate the exceptions.  Show me a list of objective good stuff.


Offline Betelnut

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #60 on: May 18, 2013, 08:31:43 AM »
OP--the last two posts pretty much sum it up for you!

I particularly like this quote:

Quote
...Atheists believe that the world we live in - with no gods - looks exactly the same as the one you live in - with a god.  IOW, you can't make a distinction about a world with a god that an atheist can utilize to determine things like objective good. 

Do you get even a little of it now?

Offline dloubet

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #61 on: May 19, 2013, 05:44:08 AM »
Right and wrong are subjective to me.
It is a fact that I do not want to die. Dying would be wrong.
It is a fact that I am a social creature. Living with others is good.
Therefore I must live in, and support, a society that discourages killing.

Denis Loubet

Offline junebug72

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #62 on: May 19, 2013, 08:56:42 AM »
I believe in God but I've never seen a list of morals.  That is still an issue I'm working out.  The only explanation I've come up with so far is that it's meant for us to come up with our own.  By doing so we show God our goodness.  Never studied subjective vs. objective morality, I do believe I understand the difference and I'm going to side with the atheists on that subject; it has to be subjective because we have not seen said list. 

You guys let me know if I got it wrong please.

I do believe that humans would have come up with this law for the same reason we came up with all the other ones, species preservation and an attempt at civilized societies.  You don't kill people because it's harmful.  Maybe not so much for the one doing the murdering but definitely for the one getting murdered.  There would be so many more orphans in a more murderous society than we could take care of.

Anf, as much as I believe in the afterlife I don't want my child dead or anyone that I love or anyone that I don't.  I wish as much as anybody does that death doesn't exist.  I saw my mother grieve deeply for the loss of my brother and her belief eased her grief.  She said the serenity prayer everyday she outlived him to comfort her and give her strength to live another day.  She wouldn't have survived that awful tragedy w/o her belief in a "better place".  Anyway we all want our children in heaven but not before we go.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online wheels5894

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #63 on: May 19, 2013, 09:37:15 AM »
Hi there, June - nice to see you back!

You have actually got it right about absolute versus subjective morality. The only thing is that the bible purports to list the various rules for morality. Do you no use that for a guide to morality? Failing that, if the bible is not the definitive list of morals, then you are quite right and we, as  humans, have been inventing are refining the rules for a long time in order to manage the high degree of civilisation we have managed today.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #64 on: May 19, 2013, 10:24:31 AM »
I believe in God but I've never seen a list of morals.  That is still an issue I'm working out.  The only explanation I've come up with so far is that it's meant for us to come up with our own.

What purpose does that serve if the ones we come up with on our own are not examples of 'goodness' in God's opinion?  What if the ones we think of as 'good', your God thinks of as 'bad'? 

By doing so we show God our goodness. 
No.  If we are to believe what you said, then all we are showing is our own feeble attempts at arriving at our own morality in hopes that your God sees it as good. 

Never studied subjective vs. objective morality, I do believe I understand the difference and I'm going to side with the atheists on that subject; it has to be subjective because we have not seen said list. 
That is not a valid reason to conclude that there is no list.  Just because you've never seen it, doesn't mean it's not there.  In the same respect, the atheist argument "I've never seen God, therefore it's not there" is insufficient, in-and-of itself, to conclude that there is no God.  You have to base it on vastly more than that.  Which we all do.  The most that you can conclude from your statement is that one possible reason you've never seen the list is because there isn't one. 

In much the same way, all I can conclude from the fact that I've never seen a god is that one possible reason I've never seen a god is because there isn't one.  There just happen to be a million of those that you can point to...  You can't detect God in any meaningful way, and one possible reason for this is that God isn't real.  The bible is full of holes, and one possible reason for this is that it's not a truthful work.  Intercessory prayer is completely useless, and one possible reason for this is that God isn't real.  After you add all those up, a conclusion based on reasonable doubt can be arrived at...  God just isn't real. 

Anf, as much as I believe in the afterlife I don't want my child dead or anyone that I love or anyone that I don't.  I wish as much as anybody does that death doesn't exist.
If you believe in a blissful afterlife, then this makes no sense at all.  It's like saying everyone is offered the greatest job in the history of the world and you're upset at the thought of leaving the crappy one behind.  Why would you not want your loved ones to move to the next life if you think it's wonderful there?  The only possible reasons are all selfish. 

If I really believed that my children were going to go to the greatest place in the history of the universe for eternity after they die, and that by killing them, it would send them there (and also send me to hell for all eternity), I would grab a knife and stab them all to death today.  Fact is, I am as certain about there being no heaven as I am about there being no Santa Claus.  So this life is much more important. 

I saw my mother grieve deeply for the loss of my brother and her belief eased her grief.  She said the serenity prayer everyday she outlived him to comfort her and give her strength to live another day.  She wouldn't have survived that awful tragedy w/o her belief in a "better place".  Anyway we all want our children in heaven but not before we go.
Isn't it the height of selfishness to wish that the ones you love are deprived of the greatness of heaven, just because you are concerned about how it will affect you? 

No offense intended, and I'm sorry for you and your mother's loss, but why did your mother see fit to pray to the same God that watched your brother die and did nothing to stop it?  Why would God grant your mother strength when he did nothing to stop your brother from dying?   

Sometimes I wonder why Christian's can't see that.  Why are they so blind to that?  It seems so incredibly obvious to me. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Traveler

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #65 on: May 19, 2013, 03:45:29 PM »
There is nothing that says that an atheist relies ONLY on logic.

I have come to believe that there is NO SUCH THING as objective morality.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #66 on: May 19, 2013, 03:58:14 PM »
If I became a theist, I would still have no reason to believe that objective morality is even a coherent concept.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #67 on: May 20, 2013, 02:54:29 AM »
You don't kill people because it's harmful.  Maybe not so much for the one doing the murdering but definitely for the one getting murdered.  There would be so many more orphans in a more murderous society than we could take care of.

Not if we killed the orphans too, of course.  Speed THEM to god as well. 

Anf, as much as I believe in the afterlife I don't want my child dead or anyone that I love or anyone that I don't......we all want our children in heaven but not before we go.

And as Jeff said - how selfish!  Do you make your children watch you eat all your dessert before you let them eat theirs?  Did you take first go on all their toys at Christmas before letting them have their turn?  Would you refuse them the chance to go off to college, to move across country, to emigrate?  Nope - as a good parent, I'm sure you'd always put THEIR best interests above your own.

So why the double standards for death and instant access to the afterlife?  This is the point when most believers certainty breaks down.  Anyone who KNEW, 100%, that there was a wonderful afterlife awaiting everyone would be all smiles at the death of a loved one.  Sure - a little sadness, because it'll be a few years before you see them again.  But the overwhelming emotion should surely be joy that they have been accelerated into the eternal bliss of heaven.  Isn't it worth you being parted from them for a few years if the trade-off is them being in a place where they have no pain or sadness, just total happiness and love?  I'd want that for my children, why wouldn't you?

Of course, the main thrust of this question is directed at the believer who subscribes to the belief that (a) we are all sinners who have to correctly repent to get the good afterlife, and (b) that innocents like small children get to bypass that requirement and go automatically to heaven.  In such a case, given the choice between:

1) Their child is GUARANTEED heaven (but they have to go now), or
2) Their child gets to hang out with them a couple more decades, but there is a significant chance that that will mean them NOT getting to heaven,

...surely option (1) is preferable?  Not going to far as to say that they should kill them themselves, but certainly if someone else comes along and (unasked) murders their children for them, then surely gratitude and happiness should be a big part of their reaction?

IF, of couse, they are as certain in their beliefs as they would otherwise have us think.

Like I said, for someone like you, where everyone is going to heaven anyway, there is a lot less of a hard decision to make.  (Incidentally - if everyone gets to go to heaven regardless.....then what on earth is the point of this world?)  It still seems a bit selfish to want your children to endure the sadness of this life for longer than they need to so you can be with them all the time - but surely the flip side of that would be for you to want THEM to die just a couple days after you?  Or better yet, perhaps, at the same time? 

Because "we all want our children in heaven but not before we go" is simply selfish, unless the same sentiment applies in reverse....because isn't that REALLY saying "I can't bear for them to be in heaven and me to be down here - but I'm fine with ME being in heaven while they slog away on earth for a few more decades"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Tonus

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #68 on: May 20, 2013, 02:59:14 PM »
Because the fact the majority of people thinking its wrong or the fear of punishment sidestep the real question of morality. So ill phrase this differently... If I could get away with killing someone no chance of getting caught, ZERO, zilch, not a possibility. And by killing said person I'll gain, lets say 20 bucks. So there is no disadvantage the murder can only help me. I would like to thingk most of you still would say I shouldn't kill that person, but I'm looking for some logical reason why.

This example doesn't contradict my earlier response, that societies will set laws and morals based around what is best for society as a whole.  The written laws provide a framework for dealing with those who choose to ignore or reject moral or ethical precepts.  But the moral and ethical precepts are there to keep people from committing crimes in the first place, by making it understood that such acts are detrimental to the whole (and, via the law, detrimental to the person who carries them out).

Thus, you would be expected not to kill a person if you felt you could get away with because you were conditioned not to do so.  If you are incapable of empathy or pragmatism, then the hope is that the moral precepts are sufficiently ingrained that your conscience would prevent you from killing someone else.

Offline HAL

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #69 on: May 20, 2013, 08:54:14 PM »
What happened to mhaberling?

I hope nobody murdered him.  :o

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #70 on: May 20, 2013, 09:25:03 PM »
What happened to mhaberling?

I hope nobody murdered him.  :o
  Don't care what happened to him.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #71 on: May 21, 2013, 07:37:52 AM »
What happened to mhaberling?

I hope nobody murdered him.  :o

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #72 on: May 21, 2013, 08:39:36 AM »
What happened to mhaberling?

He declared victory already.  No need for him to address the arguments brought against his position, now.  I mean, he has declared victory...that's all we need, right?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Tonus

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #73 on: May 21, 2013, 09:47:53 AM »
He declared victory already.  No need for him to address the arguments brought against his position, now.  I mean, he has declared victory...that's all we need, right?

It reads like just another angle on the argument that without an objective moral guide, such as god, humans cannot coexist in an orderly or civilized manner.  I will never understand how they can make that argument with a straight face, when the morals of just about every religion have changed over time.  And for many religions, their god or gods are absolved of any moral guilt by virtue of their station.  Is there any religion that truly teaches that there is a set of objective morals?  None of the major ones seem to.