Author Topic: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...  (Read 2647 times)

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Offline Traveler

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2013, 04:36:38 PM »


Besides which, you do know that you terrify non-believers when you say you need religion to be moral? What happens if you lose your faith? Are you saying that you'll then go on a murderous rampage? If so, you have got a serious problem, and I hope you're not living anywhere near me.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #30 on: May 17, 2013, 04:47:36 PM »
...

I am sure mhaberling is as glad as I am that we don't have an "unchanging objective moral standard". I don't think he wants to live in a world where OT bible morality was still practiced. :P

Well, even if we did have an unchanging standard (as opposed to mutable human standards), we could always ignore it if it proved inimical to human life.  For example, let's say we found out that an eternal god believed that a man sticking his penis in the behind of another man merited an immediate death sentence...and we found that out.  Why would we want to follow that standard, aside from perhaps avoiding the punishment of that deity?
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Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #31 on: May 17, 2013, 05:11:37 PM »
OK... A lot to answer here. But I think I can answer a lot of this pretty simply. The morality in a universe with a god is not part of the OP, so I am not going to address it because I hate when threads get muddled. Anyways what I here from a lot of you is that morals like not to murder are set up by a society to protect it. That's all fine and good, and I expected such an answer from an atheistic perspective. But I really want to get down to brass tax here. Because the fact the majority of people thinking its wrong or the fear of punishment sidestep the real question of morality. So ill phrase this differently... If I could get away with killing someone no chance of getting caught, ZERO, zilch, not a possibility. And by killing said person I'll gain, lets say 20 bucks. So there is no disadvantage the murder can only help me. I would like to thingk most of you still would say I shouldn't kill that person, but I'm looking for some logical reason why.

Couple of other things...
SPAG: the spag thing is always irritating and I don't enjoy answering to it, On that note... Im arguing base theory here. Im not talking about any specific doctrine because talking about doctrine to people who don't believe in god is really kinda an insane idea.

To traveler... you posted why I was writing. What logical reason does someone have to be empathetic.

By the way... I am not trying to claim the Moral high ground with this argument, I am trying to claim Morality in its entirety for the theistic perspective. I am claiming in an atheistic universe there is no objective good so anything we do is simply a matter of appetite. So before you answer, I would like you to think about it. Maybe you can say that's true on a forum but would you say you believe that in everyday life. Do you truly live in a way accepting of the Idea there is no measurable good?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 05:14:45 PM by mhaberling »
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Offline HAL

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #32 on: May 17, 2013, 05:20:58 PM »
But I really want to get down to brass tax here. Because the fact the majority of people thinking its wrong or the fear of punishment sidestep the real question of morality. So ill phrase this differently... If I could get away with killing someone no chance of getting caught, ZERO, zilch, not a possibility ...

Are you saying it's against the laws in this example society - but you have devised a means so that you cannot get caught? I need to know if it's still against the law in the society in your example first.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #33 on: May 17, 2013, 05:22:14 PM »
OK... A lot to answer here. But I think I can answer a lot of this pretty simply. The morality in a universe with a god is not part of the OP, so I am not going to address it because I hate when threads get muddled. ...

Then you have no topic for the thread.  The fact that meta-ethics do not change with the addition of a deity is a necessary component of answering your OP as worded.  That you insist this elephant in the room not be addressed speaks to the weakness of your position.
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Offline jetson

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #34 on: May 17, 2013, 05:22:29 PM »

By the way... I am not trying to claim the Moral high ground with this argument, I am trying to claim Morality in its entirety for the theistic perspective. I am claiming in an atheistic universe there is no objective good so anything we do is simply a matter of appetite. So before you answer, I would like you to think about it. Maybe you can say that's true on a forum but would you say you believe that in everyday life. Do you truly live in a way accepting of the Idea there is no measurable good?

Lack of belief in a god or gods has nothing whatsoever to do with morals or empathy.  It is a simple matter of atheists being the people wondering where the gods are that many claim to know is real.  There are no gods, according to atheism.  An atheist can only accept a premise where attributes of someone's made-up god include some sort of objective set of morals, which are also completely not there.  We can't accept any god claims as remotely possible without evidence that is clear and unambiguous.

Atheism is not about the absence of objective good.  Maybe you're thinking of nihilism, which is not atheism.


« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 05:24:28 PM by jetson »

Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #35 on: May 17, 2013, 05:34:47 PM »
Jetson - Where would an objective good Exist in an atheistic universe?
(Thank you this is the point I'm trying to get at)

Hal - Yes its illegal, No you can't get caught
(The reason for this is to remove fear of punishment as a possible reason)

Azdgari - As usual you confuse me, In a universe with an all-knowing creator, the knowledge of the objective good would exist with such a creator, there in turn is where true morality would be, In a godless universe the existence of an objective morality becomes less clear.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #36 on: May 17, 2013, 05:36:39 PM »
Azdgari - As usual you confuse me, In a universe with an all-knowing creator, the knowledge of the objective good would exist with such a creator, there in turn is where true morality would be, In a godless universe the existence of an objective morality becomes less clear.

No, the subjective opinion of good would exist with that creator.[1]  That's what "only existing relative to a mind" means, even the mind of a god.  Given threats of hellfire and such, it would be an important opinion, one that we would do well to heed, but that's an entirely separate topic isn't it?

Sorry, by the way.  I realize you don't want this point to be discussed openly, as your position looks better without anyone doing so.
 1. Or non-creator.  What is the relevance of the god being, or not being, a creator?
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Offline HAL

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2013, 05:38:29 PM »
Hal - Yes its illegal, No you can't get caught
(The reason for this is to remove fear of punishment as a possible reason)

If it's against the law then of course you shouldn't do it even if you can't get caught. That's because you can't pick and choose which laws you can or can't break. If everyone did that, the society would be in a shambles. Again, that's why we make laws to enforce our common morals. Whether or not you can get away with it is irrelevant. So, you would realize this and even if you did go ahead and kill you would realize it was wrong and why it was wrong (unless mentally ill).

If on the other hand the society has no laws against murder and the majority belive that it's OK, it doesn't matter if you are caught or not - so yea in that case go ahead and grab the $20.  :)

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #38 on: May 17, 2013, 05:47:33 PM »

Azdgari - As usual you confuse me, In a universe with an all-knowing creator, the knowledge of the objective good would exist with such a creator, there in turn is where true morality would be, In a godless universe the existence of an objective morality becomes less clear.

So how do we know what these objective moral standards are in the case that a god exists?
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Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #39 on: May 17, 2013, 05:50:04 PM »
No, the subjective opinion of good would exist with that creator.[1]  That's what "only existing relative to a mind" means, even the mind of a god.  Given threats of hellfire and such, it would be an important opinion, one that we would do well to heed, but that's an entirely separate topic isn't it?

Sorry, by the way.  I realize you don't want this point to be discussed openly, as your position looks better without anyone doing so.
 1. Or non-creator.  What is the relevance of the god being, or not being, a creator?
On the Contrary... I feel now that we are on the same page... I like to argue just wasn't clear what you were talking about it. An here it goes. What I am saying is that for there to be an objective good, the only place it could exist is in the mind of an all knowing creator. I think maybe where we aren't meeting is what God is. You are using the word god to describe a super being. Maybe a god like Thor or Zues. I am talking about a one true god, A being that created all, knows all, and the laws of physics themselves are in and of themselves gods will. SO then by definition any Truth God knows is in fact objective.
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Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #40 on: May 17, 2013, 05:54:36 PM »
Hal - my problem with your analysis is that you are justifying a moral with another moral... What you are saying is it is good to do what everyone thinks is good. Well for what logical reason is that true. And just wondering are you an utilitarian?

Wheels - that's a tough question, that I don't know if I can answer in an absolute. But what I think is important is that we first determine that there is or is not an objective moral good.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #41 on: May 17, 2013, 06:09:00 PM »
No, the subjective opinion of good would exist with that creator.[1]  That's what "only existing relative to a mind" means, even the mind of a god.  Given threats of hellfire and such, it would be an important opinion, one that we would do well to heed, but that's an entirely separate topic isn't it?

Sorry, by the way.  I realize you don't want this point to be discussed openly, as your position looks better without anyone doing so.
 1. Or non-creator.  What is the relevance of the god being, or not being, a creator?
On the Contrary... I feel now that we are on the same page... I like to argue just wasn't clear what you were talking about it. An here it goes. What I am saying is that for there to be an objective good, the only place it could exist is in the mind of an all knowing creator. I think maybe where we aren't meeting is what God is. You are using the word god to describe a super being. Maybe a god like Thor or Zues. I am talking about a one true god, A being that created all, knows all, and the laws of physics themselves are in and of themselves gods will. SO then by definition any Truth God knows is in fact objective.
Are you claiming that god establishes morality or simply knows objective morality?

If the former, I fail to see how that is at all 'objective'.  Morality, if established by decree of a willful, sentient being, is subject to the whims and proclivities of said willful, sentient being.  If the latter, then those objective moral truths exists independently of god and therefore the answer to the question "in an atheistic universe, why is murder wrong" would have the same answer to the question "in a theistic universe, why is murder wrong", which basically boils the question down to "why is murder wrong".

Counter question: is it immoral to melt an ice cube?  Why or why not?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #42 on: May 17, 2013, 06:09:47 PM »
On the Contrary... I feel now that we are on the same page... I like to argue just wasn't clear what you were talking about it.

That is not what you said before, and what earned the smite.  I took you to be saying that this very topic was off-limits and you would only talk about non-theistic paradigms.

An here it goes. What I am saying is that for there to be an objective good, the only place it could exist is in the mind of an all knowing creator.

If it only exists in a mind, then it is by definition subjective.  What you're saying is akin to "the only kind of triangular square is one with four sides".  You contradict yourself.

I think maybe where we aren't meeting is what God is. You are using the word god to describe a super being. Maybe a god like Thor or Zues. I am talking about a one true god, A being that created all, knows all, and the laws of physics themselves are in and of themselves gods will. SO then by definition any Truth God knows is in fact objective.

"Knowing all" really isn't relevant here, and I don't know why you keep bringing it up.  It would only be relevant if the information was encoded somewhere that this god somehow has access to.  If it is a quality of the deity, then its knowledge doesn't matter - the quality is what matters, it is the standard you're talking about.  The deity could be entirely ignorant of its own moral standard without that changing your argument whatsoever.  This I say not as something that supports or refutes either of our positions, but only for the sake of clarity.  You are citing many characteristics of this god, but most of them have no bearing on what you're talking about, so why bring them up?  They are distractions.  Creator?  Irrelevant.  All-knowing?  Irrelevant.

Anyway, to the meat of it.  The part that might actually be relevant is this:

... the laws of physics themselves are in and of themselves gods will. SO then by definition any Truth God knows is in fact objective.

The laws of physics are descriptive.  If you make a statement about them, you are making a statement about the universe.  This statement about the universe is either true or false (or incoherent, but let's ignore that).  Its truth value, relative to the physical universe, is objective.

The same would indeed go for statements about your god's values, moral or otherwise.  Does your god value human life positively or negatively?  This has an objective answer, relative to the standard you're talking about.

But - and here's the key point - it is only an objective statement about your god's morality.  Similar statements could be made about the moral positions of human minds.  "Mhaberling favors the death penalty for adultery" is an objective statement about your subjective mind state, with a true or false answer.  This is no different from statements about a god's subjective mind-state.  Only existing in a mind is the very defining characteristic of subjectivity, and that is how you've defined a godly universe's morality.

If you respond that all of existence only resides within your god's mind, then you havn't said that morality is objective.  You'll have instead said that all of reality is subjective.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2013, 06:12:10 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline HAL

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #43 on: May 17, 2013, 06:10:54 PM »
Hal - my problem with your analysis is that you are justifying a moral with another moral... What you are saying is it is good to do what everyone thinks is good. Well for what logical reason is that true.

Well ... In your example you didn't say if it was good to murder, just that it was good to murder for $20 and not get caught. In the example is it good to murder for any reason if you can't get caught? If you think so, then by all means you will murder people - but - you will be in the minority. If you never get caught and believe it's morally OK to murder for $20 your whole life, then that's all there is to it as far as you are concerned. But we're starting t go in circles.

Quote
And just wondering are you an utilitarian?

I don't know, I've never been asked. I'll have to study up on it and get back to you.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #44 on: May 17, 2013, 06:17:31 PM »
are you an utilitarian?

Wheels - that's a tough question, that I don't know if I can answer in an absolute. But what I think is important is that we first determine that there is or is not an objective moral good.

Ah, but this is at least as important. If there is a being out there which encapsulates morals then this is only useful information to us if we can know about that being and know what the unchanging moral code is. If we cannot know what the moral code is, then its existence is useless and we are left to 'make it up as we go along' which isn't so far from what humankind has been doing for millennia.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #45 on: May 17, 2013, 07:56:43 PM »
Mhaberling,

   I wonder how you are arguing.  Are you questioning your own position , and trying to justify the "slipping away" existence of god, or are you utterly convinced that your belief is correct and still trying to get us to join you with your brand of logic?

What is the definition of the god you are arguing for?

   You do realize that we who are strongly convinced there has never been a deity at all, attribute what is defined as "good" to the total construct of evolution, and what has been working to keep evolution going.  Although I think it can be argued that the idea of a good god has helped homo sapiens, when our species still did not understand much - for example lightning.   And as an aside  -  Is lightning  good  or bad?    Is lightning evil?

   I just saw a special on the Mayans, and, with their culture disappearing, how they tried all kinds of religious wildness, getting as far as human sacrifice to appease whatever they worshipped.  I believe learning about these primitive cultures and what they put themselves through to survive, is exactly the thing that teaches us there is no god, and how important it is to the survival of homo sapien to discard the last of the primitive belief as soon as possible.
 
   Who are theists really trying to trip up with these "objective good"  threads?   It doesn't really work on an atheist, and as soon as one becomes atheist, it becomes  a frivolous argument, but theists cannot see it. 
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #46 on: May 17, 2013, 08:02:14 PM »
   Who are theists really trying to trip up with these "objective good"  threads?   It doesn't really work on an atheist, and as soon as one becomes atheist, it becomes  a frivolous argument, but theists cannot see it.

It should be an equally frivolous argument for theists.  I've met plenty of theists, including Christians, who acknowledge the subjectivity of value.  It has little or nothing to do with theism.
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Offline Betelnut

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #47 on: May 17, 2013, 08:17:19 PM »
I find the OP's question really odd because, well, we DO live in a world/universe without a god or some sort of absolute moral code.  And, as we all can see, "what is moral/good/right" has and does fluctuate through the years and through the different civilizations that have existed on this world.

That there is absolutely no evidence that there is an ultimate moral code, to me, this is just another example of the lack of evidence of a god itself. 

If there were some kind of "ultimate morality," how come nobody seems to know about it or practice it?  What is it really?  Agreed--most people think of murder as wrong.  Most people now. In Western civilization. Recently.  But that certainly wasn't always the case and isn't even the case in a lot of places that are right around the corner from where you live.

As everyone else has said, morals and ethics are based on what a group of people agree on what is right/good/okay. 

Offline Betelnut

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #48 on: May 17, 2013, 08:20:15 PM »
Snozzola:  That's hilarious that you mention the Mayans because I almost did the same.  Their society was very, very advanced but was based, religiously, on human sacrifice.  I'm sure they all would have said that their civilization was moral.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #49 on: May 17, 2013, 09:30:53 PM »
I find the OP's question really odd because, well, we DO live in a world/universe without a god or some sort of absolute moral code.  And, as we all can see, "what is moral/good/right" has and does fluctuate through the years and through the different civilizations that have existed on this world.

That there is absolutely no evidence that there is an ultimate moral code, to me, this is just another example of the lack of evidence of a god itself. 

If there were some kind of "ultimate morality," how come nobody seems to know about it or practice it?  What is it really?  Agreed--most people think of murder as wrong.  Most people now. In Western civilization. Recently.  But that certainly wasn't always the case and isn't even the case in a lot of places that are right around the corner from where you live.

As everyone else has said, morals and ethics are based on what a group of people agree on what is right/good/okay.

Youre right, when they pose this view (if there is objective morality, there is god) proves that their god doesnt exist since it is demonstrable that morality changes over time even in their own religion. Its just another example of how they beat themselves. I think they would do better if they NEVER, EEEEEEEEEVER, brought up morality because its a debate they cannot and will never win. Its quite possibly the worst thing they could ever do.

Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #50 on: May 17, 2013, 09:52:37 PM »
I find the OP's question really odd because, well, we DO live in a world/universe without a god or some sort of absolute moral code.  And, as we all can see, "what is moral/good/right" has and does fluctuate through the years and through the different civilizations that have existed on this world.

That there is absolutely no evidence that there is an ultimate moral code, to me, this is just another example of the lack of evidence of a god itself. 

If there were some kind of "ultimate morality," how come nobody seems to know about it or practice it?  What is it really?  Agreed--most people think of murder as wrong.  Most people now. In Western civilization. Recently.  But that certainly wasn't always the case and isn't even the case in a lot of places that are right around the corner from where you live.

As everyone else has said, morals and ethics are based on what a group of people agree on what is right/good/okay.
You see though in there itself lies the problem. What your claiming is that what is moral is purely based on people's opinions of what is moral. So then the only moral you could logically have is to follow the morals of the majority. Which of course is in and of itself parodoxial because the Moral of the majority contradicts that Moral of follow the leader in the first place. And even if it the majority followed the only logical moral of following everyone elses, there wouldn't be any to follow. Leaving the idea moot.

My point is that everyone is demanding evidence, but evidence is meaningless unless it is logical. You could get 10 separate accounts that people saw Bob walking out of McDonalds the other day. You might say that is really weired because Bob has been dead for 5 years. BUT, until you go dig up Bobs body all the evidence supports that Bob was at McDonalds. But you wouldn't believe that off the bat because you know it defies logic. So how can you claim there is no Objective morals when it is illogical for there not to be any. I submit that until you find evidence substantial enough to overturn logic then one could only assume there is an objective moral code.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #51 on: May 17, 2013, 10:07:13 PM »
You see though in there itself lies the problem. What your claiming is that what is moral is purely based on people's opinions of what is moral. ...

That is the only kind of morality humans have ever known.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #52 on: May 17, 2013, 10:12:11 PM »
You see though in there itself lies the problem. What your claiming is that what is moral is purely based on people's opinions of what is moral. So then the only moral you could logically have is to follow the morals of the majority. Which of course is in and of itself parodoxial because the Moral of the majority contradicts that Moral of follow the leader in the first place. And even if it the majority followed the only logical moral of following everyone elses, there wouldn't be any to follow. Leaving the idea moot.

My point is that everyone is demanding evidence, but evidence is meaningless unless it is logical. You could get 10 separate accounts that people saw Bob walking out of McDonalds the other day. You might say that is really weired because Bob has been dead for 5 years. BUT, until you go dig up Bobs body all the evidence supports that Bob was at McDonalds. But you wouldn't believe that off the bat because you know it defies logic. So how can you claim there is no Objective morals when it is illogical for there not to be any. I submit that until you find evidence substantial enough to overturn logic then one could only assume there is an objective moral code.

Why would anyone assume there is objective morality when there is no evidence for it. Morality clearly changes with the times, all you have to do is look at history. If there is an example of another type of morality let me know. Fact remains you cant find it in the bible or yahweh.

Offline mhaberling

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #53 on: May 17, 2013, 10:24:32 PM »
What I am demonstrating is a clear logical flaw in there NOT being an objective morality. Does someone have somekind of answer for that, all I have done is shown that a subjective morality makes no logical sense. So you must  demonstrate that as flawed logic, accept the existence of an objective morality, or claim there is no morality that coincides with a logical universe.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2013, 11:16:05 PM »
What I am demonstrating is a clear logical flaw in there NOT being an objective morality.

In which thread?  Please provide a link.

Does someone have somekind of answer for that, all I have done is shown that a subjective morality makes no logical sense.

In which thread?  Please provide a link.

So you must  demonstrate that as flawed logic, accept the existence of an objective morality, or claim there is no morality that coincides with a logical universe.

I suggest you either make, or link to, an argument before demanding others refute it.
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #55 on: May 17, 2013, 11:24:40 PM »
What I am demonstrating is a clear logical flaw in there NOT being an objective morality.
You might think that's what you're demonstrating, but you're wrong about it.  What you might be demonstrating is that you don't like the implication of there being no objective morality.  That remains to be seen.  But no, you are not demonstrating that there is a logical flaw in there not being an objective morality.  That's simply an incorrect statement. 

Does someone have somekind of answer for that, all I have done is shown that a subjective morality makes no logical sense.
I haven't seen you do that at all.  It makes 100% perfect logical sense.  It explains how the world actually works and incorporates all the facts, leaving none out. 

So you must  demonstrate that as flawed logic, accept the existence of an objective morality, or claim there is no morality that coincides with a logical universe.
No, we don't.  You summed it up completely in one simple sentence when you said, "What is moral is purely based on people's opinions of what is moral".  Thus it's an individual thing.  Stop there.  There is no logical contradiction.  It explains everything in great detail.  What does that NOT explain to you? 

But lets break it down a bit more so you get it. 

Here is what you posted. 
Quote
You see though in there itself lies the problem. What your claiming is that what is moral is purely based on people's opinions of what is moral. So then the only moral you could logically have is to follow the morals of the majority. Which of course is in and of itself parodoxial because the Moral of the majority contradicts that Moral of follow the leader in the first place. And even if it the majority followed the only logical moral of following everyone elses, there wouldn't be any to follow. Leaving the idea moot.

When you say, 'the only moral you could logically have is to follow the morals of the majority", you've already gone and dismissed what you said we're claiming in the previous sentence.  Morality is assessed at the individual level, not the majority. It is logical to follow one's own moral code, is it not?  If the majority of the people think it's right to keep homosexuals from marrying, and they make laws around that, that doesn't change my opinion of it.  I can still disagree with that.  In the exact same way, if the majority of the people think that killing people is a good thing, I can disagree with that too.  And if the majority of people think that killing people is a bad thing, I can also disagree with that.  I form my own opinions, and so does every single other person in the world (unless you're heavily religious and have had your opinions force fed to you).  I do believe that the society we live in has a large impact on our morality, but my opinions are still mine.  A creator being is not required to understand how that all works in our reality.   

When most people agree on a position, which happens a lot, we make laws around it.  That's how the whole thing works.   

If you want to murder someone, you are free to do so are you not?  Just think about it... If you wanted to go murder someone in your house right now, could you?  Of course you could.  Who's stopping you? God? LOL! No he's not.  You really do have the freedom to murder, and the only thing you have to fear is the law, retribution from the family or loved ones of those you murder, and how it's going to make you feel after you do it.  That is a fact, and if you don't like it, that's too bad for you.  Facts don't care about our opinions all that much.  You can either embrace that fact and take some personal responsibility to do what you think is right, or you can cry about it and try to claim that an invisible sky man tells us what's right and wrong.  The big question is...  Do you want to murder?  No?  Good.  Join the club.  The very idea of taking someone's life sits poorly with me.  I have no desire to do that.  Most humans feel the same way, don't you think?  And we act on the things we feel strongly about, don't we? 

There is no 'objective good', nor is there 'objective bad' in the sense you're using, and thus there need not be any sort of all knowing creator.  Good and bad are processed by the individual.  Laws are made by individuals who share lots of opinions about what is good and what is bad.  Can you think of any situation where that's not the case?  If I murder someone, could you not go from person to person, over the entire world, and get their opinion on it?  Do you think they would all agree?  Do you think there MUST be an ultimate judge of that, or can you actually fathom that there doesn't HAVE to be an ultimate judge in order to understand how it works in reality down here on Earth? 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2013, 02:58:52 AM »
OK... A lot to answer here. But I think I can answer a lot of this pretty simply. The morality in a universe with a god is not part of the OP, so I am not going to address it because I hate when threads get muddled.

I'll have to remember that - what a great excuse when you don't have an answer to a question!

If I could get away with killing someone no chance of getting caught, ZERO, zilch, not a possibility. And by killing said person I'll gain, lets say 20 bucks. So there is no disadvantage the murder can only help me. I would like to thingk most of you still would say I shouldn't kill that person, but I'm looking for some logical reason why.

I thought I gave that one - because this is the ONE LIFE we all have, and to kill is to take away the one thing that that person will be unable to get back.  Steal his car, his wife, his bank account....you can come back from that.  You can't come back from death.

On the logical reason why not killing is practical and justified, by your argument above, you are opening the door to say that it is okay for me to kill you in those circumstances, is that correct?

I am claiming in an atheistic universe there is no objective good ...

And we are saying that that is not necessarily true.  There is certainly no objective good in any created universe, since that creator would be saying "this is mortality", and thus imposing a subjective good on his creation.      An objective good in a created universe is equally as possible as objective good in an uncreated one, but the creator would in such a case simply be agreeing with those objective morals if they existed outside of him - hence a creator is not a necessary requirement of objective morality.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why is Murder Wrong? I need evidence...
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2013, 05:54:55 AM »
hey.... Been away from the forums for a while, got drawn back in about a week ago but this is my first post... So lets get down to it.

In a godless universe, I want to know what makes murder wrong. Everything in the universe is simply collections of atoms. Well, if I have a knife why is it OK to wing it through the air or stab it in dirt but so wrong to stab it into the atoms of another human being. From where does the idea that stabbing or shooting what is essentially a sack of complex chemicals is wrong come from. What evidence can you provide to validate morality

Well, there's a strange question. Or pehaps it is just poorly thought out. I was going to ask why Christians don't go around killing people in the manner that God instructs them:

2 Chronicles 15:13 Whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 "In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"


So, mhaberling,

There is God’s Word, and God’s Word is absolute and immutable. As I understand it, you kill atheist, Moslems, Hindus, etc.? If not why do you disobey your god?

Perhaps you believe just the bits of the Bible that agree with you? Perhaps you have constructed a little personal god, who is just like you? Perhaps you are worried why there are more Christians in jails and prisons than atheists?

Here's an examples of your god's morality:

*A woman who is raped must marry her rapist. (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
*A woman who is found to have lost her virginity before her wedding night must be put to death. (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)
*Anyone who strikes (Exodus 21:15) or curses (Leviticus 20:9) his parents must be put to death.
*Anyone who works on Sunday must be put to death (Exodus 31:12-15). That includes homework! ;-)
*Anyone who follows another religion must be put to death. (Exodus 22:19) Notice a pattern here?
*Soldiers may rape their enemies’ wives and enslave their children. (Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
*In some cases, even children and infants must be slaughtered. (1 Samuel 15:2-3)
*Women must never be teachers, and must obey men’s authority in silence. (1 Timothy 2:12)
*He who refuses to kill in the name of God is cursed. (Jeremiah 48:10)


« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 06:00:00 AM by Graybeard »
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