Author Topic: Why do atheists refer to the Laws of Moses, or the Torah Law to try to prove Ch  (Read 5256 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
The Laws of Moses or the Torah Laws are found mostly in the first five books of the Old Testament.  Laws like:  it's a sin to eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:12,Deuteronomy 14:10); or an uncircumcised Kohen must not eat Terumah (Exodus 12:48). There are many more examples and even the Jews admit these laws do not apply anymore. The Jews claim that since the destruction of the second Temple, many of the laws have gone away (their words (Jews) not mine).  But yet atheists continue to “beat the dead horse” claiming that the Bible is NOT true and there is NO God and cite these outdated laws as a source of reference. Why?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Mitzvot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/613_Commandments

Offline jetson

  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 7276
  • Darwins +170/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Meet George Jetson!
    • Jet Blog
You can't have the NT without the OT.  You can't have it both ways.  If a Christian is willing to throw out old OT laws, how are we to determine exactly which ones are no longer valid?  I can't disprove YHWH using the OT as a source, because it's a just a book full of stories.  But those stories are mostly pathetic when attached to a supreme creator of the universe with attributes of multi-omniness.

Can we ignore the world-wide flood story?  What about Jonah living in the whale/fish for three days and surviving?  Are you OK with Joshua's army slaughtering entire towns of women, children, and animals because YHWH commanded it in the OT?  I could go on and on, so I have no idea why you would isolate some dumb laws.  Do you remember which book in the OT outlined the rules for pooping in the camp before a battle?

Geez...you'd think modern Christians could find better ways to spend their time defending their myths.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
You can't have the NT without the OT.  You can't have it both ways.  If a Christian is willing to throw out old OT laws, how are we to determine exactly which ones are no longer valid?  I can't disprove YHWH using the OT as a source, because it's a just a book full of stories.  But those stories are mostly pathetic when attached to a supreme creator of the universe with attributes of multi-omniness.

Can we ignore the world-wide flood story?  What about Jonah living in the whale/fish for three days and surviving?  Are you OK with Joshua's army slaughtering entire towns of women, children, and animals because YHWH commanded it in the OT?  I could go on and on, so I have no idea why you would isolate some dumb laws.  Do you remember which book in the OT outlined the rules for pooping in the camp before a battle?

Geez...you'd think modern Christians could find better ways to spend their time defending their myths.
Why do you atheists make up your own rules when it comes to debate? I just gave you two clear references why the Torah Laws are not in effect. Then you say, yes they are, because you cant have one without the other. Then, you change the question by asking about Noah.
The question on the table is: Why do atheists continue to use these outdated references to attempt to disprove the Bible?

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6645
  • Darwins +527/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Not only atheists but any other reasonably intelligent person would have difficulty with your question as it makes an assumption that is not universally true. Yes there are some Jews who will eat Shellfish, pork, etc, but there are many who do not.

Pleases refer yourself to http://www.jewfaq.org/kashrut.htm After you have read that, you will see that your next post should be: "I apologisze for misleading you when I said, "even the Jews admit these laws do not apply anymore.", when it is clear that Jews do not say this although some of them do not take too much notice of them."

At this stage we will know that you have done some research, albeit too late.

I hope this helps.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10362
  • Darwins +183/-8
  • Gender: Male
I missed the part in the bible about "beating a dead horse".  What is that all about? ;)
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Greybeard,
Let's take your argument. According to the article you provided:
According to the 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), 21% of American Jews report that they keep kosher in the home.

That being said, what does 21% of the Jewish population eating kosher foods have to do with Jesus? Christianity? Jesus rising from the dead? I believe this is the point I was trying to make.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
The Laws of Moses or the Torah Laws are found mostly in the first five books of the Old Testament.  Laws like:  it's a sin to eat shellfish (Leviticus 11:12,Deuteronomy 14:10); or an uncircumcised Kohen must not eat Terumah (Exodus 12:48). There are many more examples and even the Jews admit these laws do not apply anymore. The Jews claim that since the destruction of the second Temple, many of the laws have gone away (their words (Jews) not mine).  But yet atheists continue to “beat the dead horse” claiming that the Bible is NOT true and there is NO God and cite these outdated laws as a source of reference. Why?

Sounds like you're saying that the laws in the bible--laws that, mind you, supposely were dictated by god-- are subjective.

You might want to have a little talk with mhaberling and other christains that subscribes to the "objective morality" arguement...
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12253
  • Darwins +663/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
even the Jews admit these laws do not apply anymore. The Jews claim that since the destruction of the second Temple, many of the laws have gone away (their words (Jews) not mine).

That is completely untrue.  For orthodox jews, all the laws still apply. They do not stone people to death for breaking the laws because there is no king, no high priest and there are no judges who are authorized to determine guilt.  If they had them, you can be sure they would be stoning harlots by the dozen.

Similarly, they do not sacrifice animals anymore because the temple in jerusalem has been demolished for about 2000 years.  Not because they don't need to sacrifice animals.

Your links do nothing for your argument.  You should read them before posting them.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
This may help

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_the_old_covenant

My point once again is that Christians do not live nor follow those laws that many atheists keep referring to. Many Jews do not follow those laws today either, and my references show that the Jewish faith claims that many of them are outdated and do not apply as well. This is the point I am trying to make.

Offline 12 Monkeys

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4599
  • Darwins +104/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • Dii hau dang ijii
Greybeard,
Let's take your argument. According to the article you provided:
According to the 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), 21% of American Jews report that they keep kosher in the home.

That being said, what does 21% of the Jewish population eating kosher foods have to do with Jesus? Christianity? Jesus rising from the dead? I believe this is the point I was trying to make.
Jesus was a Jew and I would expect that he require his followers to be faithful to the Jewish doctorines. Christianity has really nothing to do with Jesus,as it was "invented" long after his "death"
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 05:16:42 PM by 12 Monkeys »
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Greybeard,
Let's take your argument. According to the article you provided:
According to the 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), 21% of American Jews report that they keep kosher in the home.

That being said, what does 21% of the Jewish population eating kosher foods have to do with Jesus? Christianity? Jesus rising from the dead? I believe this is the point I was trying to make.
Jesus was a Jew and I would expect that he require his followers to be faithful to the Jewish doctorines. Christianity has really nothing to do with Jesus,as it was "invented" long after his "death"

Since you atheists are into proving what you say. Please give proof that Christianity was "invented" long after Jesus death. Secondly, how much sense does it make that Jesus required his followers to be faithful to the Jewish doctrine?

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6645
  • Darwins +527/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Many Jews do not follow those laws today either, and my references show that the Jewish faith claims that many of them are outdated and do not apply as well.


No, you still have it wrong. Judaism (or as you say "the Jewish faith") still states the laws. Some Jews don't bother with the laws.

Quote
This is the point I am trying to make.

Then you did not try hard enough.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 06:52:04 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6645
  • Darwins +527/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Greybeard,
Let's take your argument. According to the article you provided:
According to the 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), 21% of American Jews report that they keep kosher in the home.

That being said, what does 21% of the Jewish population eating kosher foods have to do with Jesus? Christianity? Jesus rising from the dead? I believe this is the point I was trying to make.

Then why did you not say that? I'm not at all sure you know what you are saying when you say it. You were the one who wrongly, or carelessly, claimed that all Jews ignore dietary laws.

Quote
Since you atheists are into proving what you say...

Unlike Christians and you holybuckets, eh?
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 06:40:50 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Greybeard,
Let's take your argument. According to the article you provided:
According to the 2000 National Jewish Population Survey (NJPS), 21% of American Jews report that they keep kosher in the home.

That being said, what does 21% of the Jewish population eating kosher foods have to do with Jesus? Christianity? Jesus rising from the dead? I believe this is the point I was trying to make.

Then why did you not say that? I'm not at all sure you know what you are saying when you say it. You were the one who wrongly, or carelessly, claimed that all Jews ignore dietary laws.

Quote
Since you atheists are into proving what you say...

Unlike Christians and you holybuckets, eh?
Graybeard, can you please allow 12monkeys to support his/her claim. Thank you.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6645
  • Darwins +527/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
|Firstly, this site is a combined effort, secondly, 12 monkeys is not barred from answering, thirdly, I have not answered for him, fourthly you seem to be making inaccurate claims.

As you seem careless as to what you mean, you ask "Please give proof that Christianity was "invented" long after Jesus death." just so that we do not get confused about what you mean by "long after Jesus's death." when do you say that Christianity was invented/started?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
|Firstly, this site is a combined effort, secondly, 12 monkeys is not barred from answering, thirdly, I have not answered for him, fourthly you seem to be making inaccurate claims.

As you seem careless as to what you mean, you ask "Please give proof that Christianity was "invented" long after Jesus death." just so that we do not get confused about what you mean by "long after Jesus's death." when do you say that Christianity was invented/started?
Graybeard,
Here is 12monkey's post: "Jesus was a Jew and I would expect that he require his followers to be faithful to the Jewish doctorines. Christianity has really nothing to do with Jesus,as it was "invented" long after his 'death'."

How am I careless to ask 12moneys to clarify or prove the statement? Am I misinterpreting the statement in referring to Christianity as "invented long after his death?"

Offline Tero

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 726
  • Darwins +18/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Christians do not even follow the NT. It is not compatible with capitalism.

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6645
  • Darwins +527/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?

How am I careless to ask 12moneys to clarify or prove the statement? Am I misinterpreting the statement in referring to Christianity as "invented long after his death?"

I have no idea how you are interpreting the statement, that is why I asked you to clarify. It would be helpful for you to state when Christianity started. If, for example you say, "After Paul's Letters" then we have an idea. This may be what 12 Monkeys means. If you mean the Council of Nicaea, then this too could coincide with 12 Monkeys claim.

It would thus be helpful to know when you think Christianity started. Of course, it could be you have never thought of the question before.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated

How am I careless to ask 12moneys to clarify or prove the statement? Am I misinterpreting the statement in referring to Christianity as "invented long after his death?"

I have no idea how you are interpreting the statement, that is why I asked you to clarify. It would be helpful for you to state when Christianity started. If, for example you say, "After Paul's Letters" then we have an idea. This may be what 12 Monkeys means. If you mean the Council of Nicaea, then this too could coincide with 12 Monkeys claim.

It would thus be helpful to know when you think Christianity started. Of course, it could be you have never thought of the question before.
Graybeard,
Please. I am not the one making the statement. Isn't it your opinion that the one making the claim must provide the proof? Do you see why I call atheists hypocrites?

Offline Willie

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Darwins +72/-1
  • Gender: Male
My point once again is that Christians do not live nor follow those laws that many atheists keep referring to. Many Jews do not follow those laws today either, and my references show that the Jewish faith claims that many of them are outdated and do not apply as well. This is the point I am trying to make.

Maybe you should take this up with the Christians who cite Leviticus in defense of their homophobic bigotry, or the ones who want to push their OT-based creationism into the public schools in place of science. Maybe you don't incorporate OT teachings into your version of Christianity the way that many other Christians do, but the world does not revolve around you.

Offline Willie

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
  • Darwins +72/-1
  • Gender: Male
But yet atheists continue to “beat the dead horse” claiming that the Bible is NOT true and there is NO God and cite these outdated laws as a source of reference. Why?

The objection that atheists most frequently raise in regard to the OT has little to do with trying to prove that there's no god. More often it is countering Christian claims of moral superiority and moral absolutism, despite the obvious hypocrisy of ignoring the inconvenient bits of their own Holy book's teaching, and claiming that some of those moral absolutes don't apply anymore.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Homosexuality is also condemned in the New Testament as well as the creation theory.

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6405
  • Darwins +757/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Holybuckets

Do you mean the same Book of Leviticus that christians today use to prove that God thinks homosexuality is a horrible, awful, icky thing? If so, why do you guys get to use it and then complain about us using it at the same time?

I'm of course referring to this old standard that gets repeated time and time again by religious conservatives:

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." (Leviticus 20:13).

Just wondering.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Holybuckets

Do you mean the same Book of Leviticus that christians today use to prove that God thinks homosexuality is a horrible, awful, icky thing? If so, why do you guys get to use it and then complain about us using it at the same time?

I'm of course referring to this old standard that gets repeated time and time again by religious conservatives:

"If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination." (Leviticus 20:13).

Just wondering.
Still bad. Condemned in the OT as well as the NT.

Offline Aaron123

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2733
  • Darwins +77/-1
  • Gender: Male
My point once again is that Christians do not live nor follow those laws that many atheists keep referring to. Many Jews do not follow those laws today either, and my references show that the Jewish faith claims that many of them are outdated and do not apply as well. This is the point I am trying to make.

There's a couple of things I want to ask, just so we're all clear on this.

1)   Do you believe that god himself dictated all those old testament laws? (mind you, the bible does say that he did)

2)   Either way, doesn't that mean the bible spends a significant chunk of itself dealing with subjective morality, rather than "objective morality", as many believers like to claim?


At any rate, I can't imagine it sits well with you that the bible wastes so much time on things that are now considered nonsense, even by believers.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2013, 08:57:19 PM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
My point once again is that Christians do not live nor follow those laws that many atheists keep referring to. Many Jews do not follow those laws today either, and my references show that the Jewish faith claims that many of them are outdated and do not apply as well. This is the point I am trying to make.

There's a couple of things I want to ask, just so we're all clear on this.

1)   Do you believe that god himself dictated all those old testament laws? (mind you, the bible does say that he did)

2)   Either way, doesn't that mean the bible spends a significant chunk of itself dealing with subjective morality, rather than "objective morality", as many believers like to claim?


At any rate, I can't imagine it sits well with you that the bible wastes so much time on things that are now considered nonsense, even by believers.
1. Christians are not Jews. If the Jews want to believe God dictated those laws to them, more power to em. It's hard to believe in this day and age, but most of them are common sense laws- for the day. Not our day. We have many ridiculous laws in America. I'm sure at one time you have looked them up. Do a Google search for ridiculous laws, you will find a bunch of antiquated laws that are funny now.
2. I believe morality is between you and God. There are many things in the Bible that are considered sin. But in the end, everyone is a sinner and will be judged.
3. I would not say the Bible wasted anytime, and I don't consider them nonsense. Those Mosaic Laws were beneficial back then.

Offline dloubet

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1374
  • Darwins +67/-1
  • Gender: Male
    • Denisloubet.com
If the OT is just a pack of lies to you, then what is it doing in the bible?
Denis Loubet

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2829
  • Darwins +175/-73
  • Gender: Male
Where did he refer them to as a pack of lies?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline holybuckets

  • Emergency Room
  • *****
  • Posts: 574
  • Darwins +3/-34
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
If the OT is just a pack of lies to you, then what is it doing in the bible?
This is another atheist misrepresentation and trying to put words in the other person's mouth. I thought you people were about facts?