Author Topic: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario  (Read 987 times)

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Offline Add Homonym

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Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« on: May 15, 2013, 10:04:19 AM »
The competition is to make the story of Genesis fit some real scenario that could have happened in Earth's history. Christians maintain that the story of Adam and Eve makes allegorical sense somehow, in some way, that Christianity makes sense.

The problem with the story is that there is always something fundamentally wrong with it.


The first human is not likely to have existed, since he is identified as someone who was singular, alone and non-reproducing, and had to give birth to a woman, out of his rib cage. Supposedly, he then rejected God, and now the rest of humanity has to suffer, because we continually reject God. Can you imagine a real scenario where this is likely?

You are a man and woman in an ideal state. God comes up to you and says "This fruit will make you wise, but if you eat it, I will chuck you out of the garden, and make you and all your children suffer, with reduced lifespans, and disease. Also, when they die, I will burn them in hell for eternity." Do you tick (a) yes, I would very much like to reject God, and experience this outcome, because I'm terribly bored today, or (b) no, I'd rather not.

If a person did tick box (a), you would have to think they were terribly heroic, to brave life alone, without God, while he persecutes you, so that you can pursue a true life and develop meaning for the species. Yet, Judaism does not portray "the fall" as heroic.

Consider a civilization that existed 1 million years ago, who attained spiritual enlightenment; say Atlantis, or the Silurians. Most likely, they would want to keep that hard-won state, just as we would want to keep democracy and freedom of speech. And yet, the Bible says that we fell from that state, because we were conned into eating a magic fruit, that made us wise. Now, I could imagine this being possible if the magic fruit was an all-you-can-eat sex buffet, that made you stupid. That would explain a lot. I can imagine man falling, because he was tempted by something, well, ... tempting. But, no, the Bible says humans were tempted by WISDOM, and that we existed in a virginal primal state, where we knew no evil, sin, or reproduction. This ideal state consisted of doing nothing: not even playing WoW. Notice how the Bible makes no mention of what Adam was doing for employment.

The Bible then deals, for a good zero verses, on what Adam was doing with himself, prior to the serpent coming along, and screwing it all up. This is how well God designed A&E, to withstand "temptation" for about 1 day. It was so shit boring, that the most interesting show in town, was a talking snake, who was selling something that neither of them wanted.

Then, God turns us out of our paradise, because he feared us eating from another strange tree, which would surprisingly give us true immortality. It's difficult to think of a real life scenario, where God(s) or we, would leave a tree like this lying around, or it was a tree that we hadn't already eaten from. The tree of life seems irrelevant to the story. It's also strange that God didn't want Adam and Eve to become Gods, like "us". No explanation is given. The underlying assumption is that Adam and Eve weren't good enough for it, even though they would have been "one of us", and have no magical powers, to create universes. Apparently, God loved Adam and Eve so much, that he didn't want to provide work experience training, to rehabilitate them.

There have been a few attempts in sci-fi, to imagine how a civilization could attain an innocent state. If they had forgotten all wisdom, then the civilization could be easily disturbed, by any outside force. But then, in this virginal civilization, there would be more than one man. So, something had already gone terribly wrong, if a perfect civilization reduced itself to one stupid man, who knew nothing, and did nothing.

I can't see how the story in Genesis is analogous to anything that could have existed, or was likely to have happened, even if it didn't exist. If it was an Indy movie, it would be reviewed on IMDB as:

1 Star. Really dumb story. I can't beleive god woudl do any of that shit.
1 Star. I would ahve given it zero, but there is no option for that.
1 Star. They didn't even have sex, How dumb is that? I don't think Brad Pitt was a good choise for Adam, even though he tried to bring the script alive, it was DOA. That was 2 hours I'll never get back.
1 Star. I'm giving it 1 star for the snake. The CGI on that was cool, but God looked a little stupid. Brad would have been better as God.
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Offline One Above All

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2013, 10:07:49 AM »
BM
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2013, 12:08:01 PM »
your reviews at the bottom reminded me of this:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,19563.0.html

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2013, 06:41:13 PM »
Aaron Copeland wrote a beautiful choral production called In The Beginning using the Genesis story.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Betelnut

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 08:28:19 PM »
Well, don't forget that Eve wasn't around when God warned off Adam from eating the fruit.  So I DO think it is a realistic scenario that Eve naturally thought Adam was a schmuck and decided to go ahead with the learning.  After all, SHE didn't get a lecture from her all-knowing and kind of scary Creator--just from a man.  Why should/would she listen to him?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 10:10:53 PM »
Well, don't forget that Eve wasn't around when God warned off Adam from eating the fruit.  So I DO think it is a realistic scenario that Eve naturally thought Adam was a schmuck and decided to go ahead with the learning.  After all, SHE didn't get a lecture from her all-knowing and kind of scary Creator--just from a man.  Why should/would she listen to him?

Realistic, like a parent leaving a pot of arsenic cookies in the middle of the dining room floor, and telling Johnny about it, but not telling his sister, and assuming that Johnny would tell his sister.  Of course, there was also a toy train, which zoomed around the cookies, saying "Choo choo... yummy cookies."

The story would have more realism, if it said that Adam was left to tell his wife, but he did not know of what language she did speaketh, so he used hand gestures. Then his wife, did become beguiled by the serpent, and she did feed Adam of the tree, without him knowing of it.

The story implies that Eve was given the same instructions as Adam, and that Adam ate the fruit, knowingly.

What is not particularly plausible about the story, is the reaction of God. Normally, a parent would blame themselves, if they left arsenic cookies on the dining room floor, and the police would charge them with homicidal neglect. I can imagine the court dialogue:

How do you plead to the charge of deliberately leaving arsenic cookies on the dining room floor, as bait, to kill your children.
Not guilty, your honour. I specifically warned one of my children about it, using a scary story, and he would have probably told the other one, whatever her name was.
What about this train, that was left in the dining room all day, saying "yummy cookies... eat eat". Do you think it was an error to leave it in action?
I never knew about such a train. When I came into the dining room, earlier, it was not there.
OK. Once you knew your children had been poisoned, did you take them to the hospital, immediately?
No, they were dead to me. I whipped Johnny, and cursed the other one, whatever her name was, and chucked them both out of the house, to starve. I no longer had any use for them, as test subjects. However, I did plan to pop in on them, as they grew up, and play psychopathic tricks on them

Maybe it's a better movie than I thought it was; only in the horror genre.

2 Stars. That parent was a real psycho. Reminds me of my drunk mama and her meth-head psycho boyfriend.

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Offline Samothec

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #6 on: May 16, 2013, 02:26:43 AM »
Okay, the following is not a genuine real scenario but I decided to have fun with it.

There was a flash of light as the time machine arrived. Dr. Adonai and his assistant stepped out of the vehicle and looked around.

"This is a lot greener than in our time," the assistant said.

Dr. Adonai ignored his snake of a subordinate and got to work finding suitable subjects. They checked many of the near-humans in the area but only found one young subject who had the genetic potential for Dr. Adonai's experiments. He had only been able to bring limited resources so he took cells from the young man's rib and cloned him as a her. He kept her in the artificial womb long past the normal birth point to age her so she would be close to the young man's age.

As she grew, Dr. Adonai engineered the components of the gene therapy he intended to use to create the super-race. He infused those components into the various trees in a cordoned off area. He warned the young man not to eat from any of the trees as the wrong combination could kill him.

Finally the female clone was ready. Adonai awoke her and used a neural induction device to give her the basic knowledge she would need to live. He introduced the two subjects to each other and went back to work on the components.

Unfortunately Adonai had ignored his first impulse of not bringing along his shifty assistant. While the doctor worked, the snake talked the young woman into eating the fruit from one of the trees. But rather than the soporific component he thought was in this tree – which would have facilitated his intentions to rufie her – she ate fruit containing a neural enhancement.

The young man arrived curious as to what was going on – having heard the voices. The snaky assistant didn't object to the young woman offering the fruit to the male since he would also be asleep and unable to protect the female. But neither fell asleep.

Then Dr. Adonai showed up. The neural enhancement should have been one of the last components due to the changes it would make and the toxicity of other components if introduced after it. Furious at his plans being ruined he killed his assistant and drove the young couple away. He burned down the grove of trees to prevent the other components from being consumed.

Adonai then left to return to his own time. To his surprise the vehicle stopped only a short while later with the temporal circuits fused. Finding the sabotage, he cursed his dead assistant. He could not tell when or where he was. Exiting the vehicle he found himself near a pair of towns that seemed to have expanded towards each other as they grew. He didn't understand the language enough to immediately grasp where he was – or when.

It was only as the time vehicle started making noise did the names of the twin towns leap out of the gibberish from the townspeople: Sodom and Gomorrah. Then the vehicle vehemently exploded wiping both towns off the map.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:28:45 AM by Samothec »
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2013, 04:27:37 AM »
Quote
Theorizing that one could time travel within his own lifetime, Dr. Sam Beckett stepped into the Quantum Leap accelerator and vanished... He woke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Al, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Sam can see and hear. And so Dr. Beckett finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home

*Sam wakes in Eden*
Oh boy!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 04:31:12 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Tonus

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2013, 09:02:03 AM »
Well, don't forget that Eve wasn't around when God warned off Adam from eating the fruit.  So I DO think it is a realistic scenario that Eve naturally thought Adam was a schmuck and decided to go ahead with the learning.  After all, SHE didn't get a lecture from her all-knowing and kind of scary Creator--just from a man.  Why should/would she listen to him?

This is one of the early contradictions in the Bible.

Quote
Genesis 1:29 Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food. 30 And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.” And it was so.

Quote
Genesis2:15 The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die.”

Genesis 1:26-28 tells us that god created both man and woman and gave them their marching orders, and then told them that they could eat the fruit of any plant on Earth.  No exceptions.  No mention of a tree of wisdom.  No mention of a Garden of Eden.  They had use of the whole planet (that round, flat, disc-shaped structure with a dome over it).  But Genesis chapter 2 tells us that god made man, placed him in Eden, and allowed him to eat from any tree in the garden, with the exception of one.

Sorry for the derail.  It's tough to make the creation story fit a real scenario because there are two conflicting stories being told.  The first one is very simple and plain.  God is this amorphous force that creates by decree.  He says "this will happen" and it happens, as if by magic.  He speaks a world into being, populates it with plants and animals, then creates man and presents the world as a gift.  Their only orders?  Fuck as much as you can!  Hollywood wouldn't touch this story, except as a porn film.  The second version features a creator who is very human in his thoughts and actions.  He works with his hands.  He "forms" man.  He "breathes" life into him.  He "places" man in the garden and "commands" him.  And so forth.  And he creates an environment that is ripe for mankind to fuck up in and then curses his unborn descendants with sin.

I guess the real scenario for that second one is one of those films where a malicious corporate boss tries to frame an innocent underling for his own crimes.  He hires the man, promotes him quickly, expresses full confidence in his abilities and gives him more and more power and responsibility.  Then, when he embezzles billions of dollars it appears as if the underling has done it.  The movie, though, would end with the boss's foul plans exposed and the underling becoming the hero who saves the day and rides off into the sunset with the gorgeous (if somewhat ditzy) secretary with the large tits.  The Bible version leads to several sequels where the boss hires additional underlings and has them murder, torture, and rape innocents and pillage entire towns.  The reason being that those people and towns did not buy HIS brand of deodorant, and that shit gets punished HARDCORE, motherfuckers!!!

Then he does that "hidden boss" show and turns out to have a real heart of gold, being generous and even fixing an elderly employee's pacemaker, thus saving his life.  Then he makes the ultimate sacrifice, handing the reigns of CEO to his kind and gentle son and retiring with the mother of all golden parachutes.  He gets a modest corner office where he can order the eternal torture of the people who didn't buy his brand of deodorant, because being a nice guy doesn't mean that you can't torture innocent people forever... motherfuckers!!!

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2013, 09:31:54 AM »
Quote
Theorizing that one could time travel within his own lifetime, Dr. Sam Beckett stepped into the Quantum Leap accelerator and vanished... He woke to find himself trapped in the past, facing mirror images that were not his own and driven by an unknown force to change history for the better. His only guide on this journey is Al, an observer from his own time, who appears in the form of a hologram that only Sam can see and hear. And so Dr. Beckett finds himself leaping from life to life, striving to put right what once went wrong and hoping each time that his next leap will be the leap home

*Sam wakes in Eden*
Oh boy!

"Ziggy says that you have to stop this girl from eating some fruit that a talking snake recommended.

Yeah...I think Ziggy's broken.  Let's just wait this one out."
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2013, 10:06:18 AM »
Well I won't be getting a prize - I don't think it can be done. The story is riddled with problems and unlike anything that ever was in the real world. For example
  • Creation of the world was not a world like we know and light came before any light-emitting objects and green plant before and light emitters too come to that.
  • The problem of the fruit is that the tree gave the knowledge of good and evil. Before eating the fruit, neither Adam or his wife/girlfriend (delete as appropriate) knew the difference between good and evil and so did not know that it was wrong to disobey what Adam had been told.
  • God tells lies - the snake knew better - that they would not die. In fact it turns out that everyone gets an afterlife or some sort so that death is just a portal - or that the crap one hears at funerals.

So, really the story make little sense and is obviously a collection of folk tales telling how people thought the world started that have been unhappily linked together to try and make one story - unsuccessfully in my opinion.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Lectus

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2013, 11:37:43 AM »
In that story the snake was telling the truth.

I don't know why they portray the snake as evil.
Religion: The belief that an all powerful God or gods created the entire universe so that we tiny humans can be happy. And we also make war about it.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2013, 11:58:47 AM »
I always had issues with this fable in my past life but the church wasn't into trying to answer any of those questions... and apparently you cannot be a good xian without believing it.

I cannot comprehend the way skygod acted to his "children" in light of having some of my own.  (insert mercy and grace stuff from NT)  If I set up arbitrary rules with no real impact on reality, why would I go all batshit crazy if they break one?  Does that really ruin them for all eternity that they broke one of MY established crazy rules?? 

It makes NO sense, there's no way to harmonize any of it...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2013, 12:19:25 PM »
I always had issues with this fable in my past life but the church wasn't into trying to answer any of those questions... and apparently you cannot be a good xian without believing it.

I cannot comprehend the way skygod acted to his "children" in light of having some of my own.  (insert mercy and grace stuff from NT)  If I set up arbitrary rules with no real impact on reality, why would I go all batshit crazy if they break one?  Does that really ruin them for all eternity that they broke one of MY established crazy rules?? 

It makes NO sense, there's no way to harmonize any of it...

Don't forget that the book of Genesis is a fusion of at least 4 separate texts and not that well edited either. That's why it sometimes doesn't seem to make any sense.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline neopagan

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2013, 12:25:05 PM »
Very true. 

Looks like there are a couple accounts merged together at the very least.

If you really want to get confused, follow the story as if adam and eve never "sinned" - it gets way weird then
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline One Above All

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2013, 12:26:48 PM »
In that story the snake was telling the truth.

I don't know why they portray the snake as evil.

It's just one of the many contradictions involving what christians believe and what the Bible actually says.
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« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 12:38:53 PM by One Above All »
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We choose our own gods.

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Offline neopagan

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2013, 12:36:22 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but that whole snake part of the story would have made more sense without the snake.

Why add in the snake, if the children are really that full of themselves to "shake their fist at god" why add it in there?  A prehistoric literary device??

Easy answer is satan, but the Genesis story never calls the snake satan.  That never comes up until the last book of the encyclopedia set...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2013, 03:07:46 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but that whole snake part of the story would have made more sense without the snake.

Why add in the snake, if the children are really that full of themselves to "shake their fist at god" why add it in there?  A prehistoric literary device??

Because if you understand why the story exists, then it makes no sense at all without the snake.

Excellent essay by the esteemed kcrady:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,18666.msg532733.html#msg532733
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2013, 03:39:52 PM »
screwtape -

I will read that. Thanks for the link.  Bottom line, whole thing doesn't make sense to me...
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2013, 06:54:24 PM »
A complete effing setup. I figured this one out as a young child. First nail in the religious coffin. Adam and Eve was entrapped, framed, set up! >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2013, 09:49:37 AM »
I think Samothec came pretty close. All it needs is an extra time travel jump, to inform Moses of what happened.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2013, 06:35:21 AM »
once you read the history(s) of all this non-sense the words make a little more sense, just not from the lens of Christianity. For example once you read up on where this idea of yahweh came from, you can stop trying to shoehorn the trinity into "he has become like one of US" and then the "Us" makes sense... Once you read about Ba'al and golden calfs then the stories about it make sense, and also render yahweh worthless and non-existant... all you have to do is realize these people felt Ba'al was at least as real as yahweh (or the other way around even) which means AT THE TIME HE WAS SUPPOSEDLY DOING MAGIC he had no more evidence than a god yahweh believers know is imaginary. rinse repeat

Offline Samothec

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Re: Competition for anybody: make Genesis fit a real scenario
« Reply #22 on: May 24, 2013, 02:15:54 AM »
I think the best way to make it a "real" scenario would be to have an old man telling the story. He sometimes forgets where he was in the story so he repeats part of it, although the details change a bit. It would help a lot to resolve the doubling rife in Genesis. Even the geneologies of the children of Cain and Seth seem like a mangled retelling of each other.

Going about it that way you're left with just one (big) problem: the talking snake. An animal that talks. Hmmm, how to explain that? Heck if I know - unless you do the "snake of a man" thing I did above. It's amazing that anyone buys that load of crud with the talking snake in there. Saying it was Satan in disguise is the only way to sell it and not have everyone calling it BS.

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Epilogue to my above tongue in cheek story (sort of requested by Add Homonym):

As they fled from Egypt they took an indirect route to avoid any forces following. The Egyptians were rather irate that Moshy caused the plague over a labor dispute. As they walked – endlessly it seemed – Moses kept tapping on the metal tablet that had fallen out of the blast of light with the "staff" which contained the plague.

He had no idea that the explosion of the time machine had propelled those few things through time to land near him. On the fifth day of travel he got more moving images to appear – like the ones that showed him how to open the "staff" and remove the "protection" and the "plague". Or so he thought of them.

He saw the old man, the snaky assistant and the young couple on that last day. The events amazed and terrified him. As they wandered he watched more of Dr. Adonai's vlog. His mind swam with strange images and he led his people nowhere.

"Moshy! It's like we've been out here for forty years! Get us somewhere already!"

Later, after finding a new home and telling his people about what he saw – as best he was able – he encased the metal tablet in clay, wrote the commandments he felt they needed to follow on it and left it to harden in the sun. He could not get rid of it but he also did not want to see it again. Later, as he considered trying to look at it again, he had the ark made to contain it.

So if you find and open the arc, amongst the dust of the clay tablet you will find a computer tablet from the future.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther