Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 132242 times)

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1508 on: March 05, 2018, 12:34:27 AM »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1509 on: March 05, 2018, 08:35:35 PM »
Some people simply do not want people to have guns period.

I half agree with that.  I certainly think there are some guns no one should have.  And I also think no one should have guns in public.  I think it is stupid to have guns at home, but as long as you keep them at home, meh, it’s your funeral.

They will deny that accusation flat out but they offer no solution to the problem. No guns, no gun clubs in high schools, no gun clubs in colleges, no NRA and no JROTC. period...all while assuring me that they themselves are a responsible gun owner who scoffs at the notion of redacting the 2nd amendment.

I don’t know anyone like that.  Even my most liberal friends. I wouldn’t mind a pre-1970 NRA, but the current one is toxic and Is love to see it burned to the ground.  Let’s face it, they are extremists and don’t even represent most gun owners’ attitudes.

I also think the 2nd amendment is an anachronism and should be tossed.  I also know that is unlikely to happen in my lifetime.  But it would not mean no one can have guns.  It would just mean no one has a right to them.  And it would allow us to have sane laws regulating them.


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Online Fiji

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1510 on: March 06, 2018, 06:41:49 AM »
I also think the 2nd amendment is an anachronism and should be tossed.  I also know that is unlikely to happen in my lifetime.  But it would not mean no one can have guns.  It would just mean no one has a right to them.  And it would allow us to have sane laws regulating them.

The original intent of the second amendment was to ensure that states could oppose this newfangled 'federal government' thingy.
But the states did not want their own populace to oppose THEM, hence the insistence on the (state) militia. There was never an intent to have the current all-the-guns-for-everyone scenario ... primarily because politicians back then weren't stark raving mad.
Actually, simply bringing back the original interpretation of the second amendment would solve a lot of things.
The instant you buy a gun you automatically become subject to state militia regulations. Fail to stick to those regulations and you lose your gun. Simple.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1511 on: March 06, 2018, 09:34:09 AM »
The original intent of the second amendment was to ensure that states could oppose this newfangled 'federal government' thingy.

I am deeply skeptical of this idea.  It makes no sense to me.  Why the hell would a brand- spankin’ new government give its constituents the right to violent rebellion?  That is suicidal and contrary to the whole point of democracy.  I do not believe the founders created a government which had every state pointing a gun at its head.  That’s not democracy.  That is a Mexican standoff.

And in any event, the whole militia thing was covered under the military militia act of 1903 (or somewhere thereabouts) and made them into the national guard.  The reason being, militias can’t fight for shit and you need an actual professional, trained army.

A big part of the original intent of the militias, according to an article I recently posted here thought I posted, were as slave patrols.  That is, to keep the slaves in line and track down runaways.

Quote
The instant you buy a gun you automatically become subject to state militia regulations. Fail to stick to those regulations and you lose your gun. Simple.

Well, yes, that would be a help.  But the right wing and NRA has kind of fucked that whole idea up.  I dunno how you unfuck it.

Edits in blue
Link to article I thought I posted:
https://m.dailykos.com/stories/1745741
Following the link therein has a more complete historical and constitutional explanation
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 11:00:48 AM by screwtape »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1512 on: March 06, 2018, 10:19:27 AM »
Man disarms shooter.  Man then shot by police.
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/he-disarmed-possible-church-shooter-then-police-arrived-shot-him-n851816

Quote
On the morning of Feb. 14 — the same day as the Florida school shooting that killed 17 kids and teachers — Garces wrestled a handgun away from a man who had entered the chapel at Faith City Mission and threatened to hold church attendees hostage.

But a responding officer fired at Garces, striking him twice — once in the back and once above his collar bone,...


“If this proves anything, it proves that when a situation is that tense and you’ve got officers trained to shoot first, and have been told by the law to shoot first if you’re remotely threatened, they’re going to feel threatened when they see a teacher with a gun,” Blackburn said.

“When you have officers who are ready to use lethal force they’re going to use it.”
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1513 on: March 06, 2018, 10:20:55 AM »
What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1514 on: March 06, 2018, 02:38:42 PM »
The original intent of the second amendment was to ensure that states could oppose this newfangled 'federal government' thingy.

I am deeply skeptical of this idea.  It makes no sense to me. 

Neither me.

The point of militias was for each state to contribute forces to the federal effort as needed because there was no such thing as full-time military in 1787, at least not in the way we have experienced it for the past 100-150 years. Very few people in the army were full-time, and they existed mostly to organize, train and lead the non-conventional personnel when conscripted in time of need. Today, we experience the reverse -- we have a large full-time force and even some of the national guard are full-time. Instead of conscripting non-coventional forces in time of need, our professional forces are often sent out to deal with domestic problems, most commonly as a response to natural disasters.



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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1515 on: March 11, 2018, 09:04:47 AM »
Interesting post on guns, AR-15s and teachers.  But mostly about gun handling.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/3/10/1748083/-I-m-Active-Military-Thoughts-on-the-AR-15-Arming-Teachers

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Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1516 on: March 12, 2018, 01:31:29 AM »
Hey, all. Haven't been here in a few years, nice seeing you all again. 

Sorry if this, or something similar to this, has been discussed already, I looked around for it and couldn't find anything. In the wake of another mass shooting, I've seen swaths of stuff for and against gun control. I'm all for gun control and most of the anti-gun control sounded like non-sense to me. Then I see this picture:



Looked up the sources and apparently they're all correct. I've been thinking about this so much that it made me want to come here and hear some opinions about it. While I still think mass shootings are a growing problem and enacting new laws for them certainly won't hurt anyone, it's made me wonder if they're as deadly as people have been making them sound. Most people never said they were the deadliest thing in the country, but after seeing this, it's hard for me to think that they're not over-hyped anymore. Are these stats being misconstrued in some way?

Then I've heard about mass stabbings Googled it and apparently there've been several in the last few years ( https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=794&ei=mhqmWrWsIo2BzwLJhorgBA&q=asian+mass+stabbings&oq=asian+mass+stabbings&gs_l=psy-ab.3...28757.29413.0.29841.5.5.0.0.0.0.83.290.5.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.59...0i7i30k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.BCbuqM2ULHI ). While not quite as many as the U.S. has been having lately with shootings, it all has made me wonder if they're not as big of a problem as so many people are acting like it is.... at least not yet. This post isn't anything about anti-gun control, that part seems common sense to me, even if we've only had a couple shootings lately. It's more about how people tend to over-hype certain things. Should it be treated as the national crisis people are acting like it is?

Offline stuffin

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1517 on: March 12, 2018, 09:05:26 AM »
Hey, all. Haven't been here in a few years, nice seeing you all again. 

Sorry if this, or something similar to this, has been discussed already, I looked around for it and couldn't find anything. In the wake of another mass shooting, I've seen swaths of stuff for and against gun control. I'm all for gun control and most of the anti-gun control sounded like non-sense to me. Then I see this picture:



Looked up the sources and apparently they're all correct. I've been thinking about this so much that it made me want to come here and hear some opinions about it. While I still think mass shootings are a growing problem and enacting new laws for them certainly won't hurt anyone, it's made me wonder if they're as deadly as people have been making them sound. Most people never said they were the deadliest thing in the country, but after seeing this, it's hard for me to think that they're not over-hyped anymore. Are these stats being misconstrued in some way?

Then I've heard about mass stabbings Googled it and apparently there've been several in the last few years ( https://www.google.com/search?biw=1440&bih=794&ei=mhqmWrWsIo2BzwLJhorgBA&q=asian+mass+stabbings&oq=asian+mass+stabbings&gs_l=psy-ab.3...28757.29413.0.29841.5.5.0.0.0.0.83.290.5.5.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..0.1.59...0i7i30k1j0i8i7i30k1.0.BCbuqM2ULHI ). While not quite as many as the U.S. has been having lately with shootings, it all has made me wonder if they're not as big of a problem as so many people are acting like it is.... at least not yet. This post isn't anything about anti-gun control, that part seems common sense to me, even if we've only had a couple shootings lately. It's more about how people tend to over-hype certain things. Should it be treated as the national crisis people are acting like it is?
I don't see handguns on the graphic you provided.

Found this at wiki

Quote
Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1518 on: March 12, 2018, 02:31:11 PM »
Are these stats being misconstrued in some way?

Yes. First off, they're total bullshit. Rifles are not the only type of firearm in existence, so to compare a single type of firearm to everything else fairly, you'd need to sort them by category, like different types of opiates, different types of blunt objects, different types of people hitting and kicking, and so on. I find it hard to believe this didn't cross your mind.
Second of all, firearms cannot be compared to literally any other item owned by the general population, because the sole purpose of firearms is to kill. No other item (or activity) owned (or performed) by the general population shares this feature. The "Guns kill" slogan should be "Guns are designed to kill".
Third of all, even if you ignore everything else I've said, the biggest difference between all of those examples and assault rifles is that everything else is properly controlled. You need a medical license for practicing medicine and will have it revoked if you kill someone due to malpractice. You need a license to drive a car and will have it revoked if you kill someone in a car crash. You need a prescription for opiates. You need registration to even be a citizen (thus, if you kill someone with your bare hands and anyone spots you, from your description, the cops can find you). Weapons, on the other hand, are so easily acquired in the USA, it's even more ridiculous than the fact that your ISPs still have data caps.

Weapons are designed to kill, or, failing that, severely injure your target. It's the definition of weapon. They need to be controlled, and those who own them need to be accountable. The fact that this even needs to be said is proof of how fucked up the USA's political atmosphere is.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1519 on: March 12, 2018, 08:44:47 PM »
We have guided missiles and misguided men.  ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1520 on: March 13, 2018, 09:44:51 PM »
A podcast worth a listen:  Sam Harris #19 The Riddle of The Gun or in original text form.




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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1521 on: March 14, 2018, 12:10:07 PM »
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1522 on: March 14, 2018, 02:16:42 PM »
Gun-trained teacher accidentally discharges firearm in California classroom, injuring student
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/14/teacher-accidentally-discharges-firearm-in-calif-classroom-he-was-trained-in-gun-use/?utm_term=.2e1ee63358d2

I knew that would happen, could you imagine them firing while being shot at? Accuracy? What accuracy?
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Offline stuffin

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1523 on: March 14, 2018, 02:32:48 PM »
So this morning at work we were discussing the student walkout set for today. I said the schools should get on board and organize the walkout with the students, this is great opportunity for them to demonstrate leadership. They could gather in the courtyard or around the flagpole and have a speaker or two and a moment of silence. One of my co-workers says, they can't do that, some one could be waiting out there for them and shoot them. I was dumbfounded and asked where did you get an idea like that? She said, that is what the Principal of the school told the students. I immediately thought my head would explode, I had to walk away and calm down. I came back a few minutes later and stated to her, your Principal is trying to control those students using fear, and if that is the logic he is using, he needs to cancel recess, soccer games and any other event where the student will gather in a predetermined time and place. She had no answer. I can't believe a full grown adult in her 40's with a daughter going to college for marine biology actually believes shit like that.
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Online One Above All

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1524 on: March 14, 2018, 02:45:09 PM »
Gun-trained teacher accidentally discharges firearm in California classroom, injuring student
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/14/teacher-accidentally-discharges-firearm-in-calif-classroom-he-was-trained-in-gun-use/?utm_term=.2e1ee63358d2

What a surprise.
If there's even a 0.1% chance of a fatal gun accident per weapon per year, just arming every teacher would result in an average 3500[1] dead students per year due to accidents alone.

And if you think 0.1% is too high, well... it's actually pretty accurate. 1.3% of all deaths in the USA in 2015 were due to firearms, and of those, 1% (or 0.13% of all deaths) were due to accidents.
 1. https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=28 - In 2015 there were about 3.5 million teachers across the USA. With an assumed 0.1% chance of a fatal gun accident, the expected outcome is 3500 deaths.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2018, 02:52:07 PM by One Above All »
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Offline wright

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1525 on: March 14, 2018, 04:45:17 PM »
So this morning at work we were discussing the student walkout set for today. I said the schools should get on board and organize the walkout with the students, this is great opportunity for them to demonstrate leadership. They could gather in the courtyard or around the flagpole and have a speaker or two and a moment of silence.

The local student walkouts in my area seem to have happened without incident and mostly with the cooperation of the various administrators. I was with some other supporters near my old HS: the kids came out of the buildings around 10 am, some hundreds of them, a few with signs and placards, and made their point for about 20 minutes. There may have been some speeches made; I heard conflicting things from other bystanders in touch with the students.

All in all it was pretty low key, but still encouraging. I haven't been to an event like that in a long time: the sight and sound of a crowd (fairly quiet, considering the number of them) gathered to make their opinion on this issue known was stirring.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1526 on: March 14, 2018, 05:07:03 PM »
So this morning at work we were discussing the student walkout set for today. I said the schools should get on board and organize the walkout with the students, this is great opportunity for them to demonstrate leadership. They could gather in the courtyard or around the flagpole and have a speaker or two and a moment of silence. One of my co-workers says, they can't do that, some one could be waiting out there for them and shoot them. I was dumbfounded and asked where did you get an idea like that? She said, that is what the Principal of the school told the students. I immediately thought my head would explode, I had to walk away and calm down. I came back a few minutes later and stated to her, your Principal is trying to control those students using fear, and if that is the logic he is using, he needs to cancel recess, soccer games and any other event where the student will gather in a predetermined time and place. She had no answer. I can't believe a full grown adult in her 40's with a daughter going to college for marine biology actually believes shit like that.

As if being inside the school is a safer place ...   *eyeroll*

How does the principal even proclaim that with a straight face?

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1527 on: March 14, 2018, 08:07:20 PM »
Gun-trained teacher accidentally discharges firearm in California classroom, injuring student
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/14/teacher-accidentally-discharges-firearm-in-calif-classroom-he-was-trained-in-gun-use/?utm_term=.2e1ee63358d2

Lest I need to remind anyone here, THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS WITH GUNS.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2018/03/bang-bang-crazy-part-12-excuses-excuses.html
Quote
There are no accidents with guns.

Guns are killing machines. When you pick one up, you and you alone are responsible for happens next. No excuses. No exceptions.

And if you don’t understand that in your bones, then you will never be allowed on my range or at my back. Ever.

There are no accidents with guns.

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1528 on: March 15, 2018, 03:51:25 AM »
Gun-trained teacher accidentally discharges firearm in California classroom, injuring student
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/03/14/teacher-accidentally-discharges-firearm-in-calif-classroom-he-was-trained-in-gun-use/?utm_term=.2e1ee63358d2

Lest I need to remind anyone here, THERE ARE NO ACCIDENTS WITH GUNS.
http://www.stonekettle.com/2018/03/bang-bang-crazy-part-12-excuses-excuses.html
Quote
There are no accidents with guns.

Guns are killing machines. When you pick one up, you and you alone are responsible for happens next. No excuses. No exceptions.

And if you don’t understand that in your bones, then you will never be allowed on my range or at my back. Ever.

There are no accidents with guns.

No need to remind me, personally. I completely agree.

I could've sworn I put quotes around the word "accident" in my previous post, but it seems I forgot. If a mod could take care of that in my previous post, I'd appreciate it.
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Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1529 on: March 16, 2018, 09:09:07 PM »
Quote from: stuffin
I don't see handguns on the graphic you provided.

Found this at wiki

Quote
Gun violence in the United States results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually.[1] In 2013, there were 73,505 nonfatal firearm injuries (23.2 injuries per 100,000 U.S. citizens),[2][3] and 33,636 deaths due to "injury by firearms" (10.6 deaths per 100,000 U.S. citizens).[4] These deaths consisted of 11,208 homicides,[5] 21,175 suicides,[4] 505 deaths due to accidental or negligent discharge of a firearm, and 281 deaths due to firearms use with "undetermined intent".[4] Of the 2,596,993 total deaths in the US in 2013, 1.3% were related to firearms.[1][6] The ownership and control of guns are among the most widely debated issues in the country.

Yes, the image only showed rifles because I think the intent was to point out that assault-style semi-automatic rifles (AR-15s, etc) used in a lot of shootings and like the ones a lot of people want a ban on aren't as dangerous as people are acting like they are. I thought they were until I saw the picture, then I thought it all was over-hyped and not such a national crisis. Now after thinking about it more, I still think it's over-hyped but it doesn't matter if it is because it's a growing problem that's dangerous enough for some new laws put in place and has the potential to be a lot worse if nothing is done about it.

That same FBI source in the picture says 7,105 homicides were with handguns and 11,004 in total with all firearms ( https://ucr.fbi.gov/crime-in-the-u.s/2016/crime-in-the-u.s.-2016/tables/expanded-homicide-data-table-4.xls ).

Offline Sleeping Shadow

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1530 on: March 16, 2018, 09:30:53 PM »
Quote from: OneAboveAll
Quote from: Sleeping Shadow
Are these stats being misconstrued in some way?


Yes. First off, they're total bullshit. Rifles are not the only type of firearm in existence, so to compare a single type of firearm to everything else fairly, you'd need to sort them by category, like different types of opiates, different types of blunt objects, different types of people hitting and kicking, and so on. I find it hard to believe this didn't cross your mind.

It crossed my mind that it was odd that only rifles were used, but I shrugged it off for the reason in my above post. But it might not matter anyway since gun control is about more than an assault weapons ban and mass shootings. It's about regulations to make things safer with the rest of the guns too. What didn't cross my mind was how they clumped a lot of specific things into one category and gave them a general name while only putting down rifles specifically. It actually changes most of any effectiveness it had. Thanks for pointing that out.

Quote from: OneAboveAll
Second of all, firearms cannot be compared to literally any other item owned by the general population, because the sole purpose of firearms is to kill. No other item (or activity) owned (or performed) by the general population shares this feature. The "Guns kill" slogan should be "Guns are designed to kill".
Third of all, even if you ignore everything else I've said, the biggest difference between all of those examples and assault rifles is that everything else is properly controlled. You need a medical license for practicing medicine and will have it revoked if you kill someone due to malpractice. You need a license to drive a car and will have it revoked if you kill someone in a car crash. You need a prescription for opiates. You need registration to even be a citizen (thus, if you kill someone with your bare hands and anyone spots you, from your description, the cops can find you). Weapons, on the other hand, are so easily acquired in the USA, it's even more ridiculous than the fact that your ISPs still have data caps.

Weapons are designed to kill, or, failing that, severely injure your target. It's the definition of weapon. They need to be controlled, and those who own them need to be accountable. The fact that this even needs to be said is proof of how fucked up the USA's political atmosphere is.

Absolutely. I've been on this boat the whole time. My first post was never anti-gun control and more about anti-overhyping mass shootings. What I didn't realize then that I do now is that it doesn't matter if it's overhyped because it's bad enough to do something about it and sometimes you have to overhype it to get it the attention it needs.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1531 on: March 18, 2018, 01:17:51 PM »










John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1532 on: March 31, 2018, 09:56:08 PM »
4 wounded in ‘running gun battle’ on North Carolina highway

^^^ This is a good reason to take away a citizen's gun rights.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Nick

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #1533 on: April 01, 2018, 07:47:47 AM »
4 wounded in ‘running gun battle’ on North Carolina highway

^^^ This is a good reason to take away a citizen's gun rights.
Just another day in America.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!