Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 27497 times)

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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #754 on: July 26, 2014, 08:52:27 AM »
Indeed. What crime should Silverman be charged with? Obviously Plotts will get off on an insanity plea but what about the good conservative who ignored company policy and shot a patient?

Why do you assume he is conservative?

Why wouldn't I? It's the easiest assumption to make.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #755 on: July 26, 2014, 01:39:50 PM »
What really steams me is the guy's attitude. While I can understand (sort of) the use of a gun as self-defense, that was clearly not the case here as they were, by that point, fleeing the scene. And his comments were (and I may be paraphrasing, but I think I'm close) were, "she said, 'don't shoot me, I'm pregnant', but I shot her anyway", and "the woman wasn't running as fast as the guy was, so I shot her twice, and she's dead". It's as though he is bragging about it.

I didn't read that as bragging. I think the old man was just stating matter of factly what happened. He didn't have to tell the police that the woman told him she was pregnant. He was beat down pretty bad....she even broke his collar bone. Only after she felt that he was sufficiently incapacitated did she stop beating him to help the other guy pillage and plunder this old mans belongings.

According to the old man, he had already been robbed four times. He suspected it was the same couple each time. An obviously, the police could do nothing to stop it from happening. I don't know if he was beat down every time or if this was the first time because he walked in on them while it was happening.

I think he was tired and scared and lost faith in the system. So after the fall out, when the detectives were interviewing him, I believe he probably told them the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth...but I don't think he was bragging. At the age of 80, I doubt he even cares if he spends the rest of his life in jail at this point. He was just tired of being robbed and certainly not happy with getting beat down by the burglars. He would probably be safer in jail than in his own home at this point.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #756 on: July 26, 2014, 03:35:30 PM »
Oh yeah, I read some of those comments about congratulating him and wishing he had shot them both and stuff. It was a little disheartening, slightly comical but sad none the less. I did read a few comments which, to me, seem just as callous and unthinking...such as "If he is living in a bad neighborhood then he should just move."

Like it's just that easy for everybody to just move when bad shit starts happening in your neighborhood. 
« Last Edit: July 26, 2014, 03:38:12 PM by Mr. Blackwell »
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #757 on: July 26, 2014, 06:21:08 PM »
What really steams me is the guy's attitude. While I can understand (sort of) the use of a gun as self-defense, that was clearly not the case here as they were, by that point, fleeing the scene. And his comments were (and I may be paraphrasing, but I think I'm close) were, "she said, 'don't shoot me, I'm pregnant', but I shot her anyway", and "the woman wasn't running as fast as the guy was, so I shot her twice, and she's dead". It's as though he is bragging about it.

Interesting. I must have missed those quotes. While her pregnancy (actual or fake) should not have provided her any shield from taking a bullet during her burglary of a home, knowing that he could shoot her anyway is immoral and illegal. The slower runner will always get hit first, but I digress.

And now they are trying to charge her accomplice with her murder ...

As a legal precept, it is quite probable that her accomplice would be charged with her murder, but to a lesser degree. He didn't actually pull the trigger but his actions led to the act being completed. Whenever a crime is committed and someone is injured or dies the perpetrators of the crime are usually held responsible (in addition to anyone else who may be responsible). Their basic actions (committing a crime) were done with intent to harm and when harm occurs they must pay the price even when the victim of the harm was not the intended target.

... while the guy who actually shot her is lauded as some sort of hero...

Yes, everybody with a fully erect cock has gone online to channel their best Dirty Harry persona to defend a man shooting someone in the back just because the person he shot intended to rob him or physically harm him. I have said that it's too bad he didn't shoot them while they were still in his house. There would be little to investigate at that point. However, when the threat of harm has ceased (the perps are running away and/or off your property), the actions you take must reduce in tandem with the threat level. If you are not likely to be killed, then you shan't kill either.

Don't know how that is going to play out yet, from what I understand they are still reviewing the case, but while they were both clearly in the wrong for burglarizing the house and knocking the old man around, it doesn't make any sort of sense to me to totally exonerate him while pinning an actual murder on the accomplice.

I agree. I figure they will find him guilty of manslaughter and either greatly reduce the penalty or commute the sentence.

I am providing him with a lot of leeway by saying that at his age his thought processes and reactions may not have been as sharp as someone half his age. I also have considered that his statements may have been fostered by nervous hyperbole. Yeah, I got 'em! Finally! Yeah, I don't care if she was pregnant!  True. I don't, either. She chose to do the crime she was doing but being shot in the back while running away borders on barbarism. The victim becomes the perpetrator.

I was taken aback, as well, by reading the comments (this was yesterday, and I don't know whether it was the same source, or whether the reactions are any more balanced now), but probably at least 95% of what I was reading was along the lines of "Yay for the old guy, and good riddance for taking one scumbag out of the gene pool; too bad he didn't kill them both".  It was like a frenzy of congratulation for the guy, and no thought whatsoever that he might have done anything but a favor to the world. I guess the autopsy will show whether or not she was actually pregnant, but even if she was lying (as most of the comments seem to believe) doesn't make shooting her in the back any more right.

Nothing has changed, but I would say that about 80% were comments from the Thunderdome crowd. The 20% who were trying to make some sense of it were being drowned out by those beating sticks on rocks.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #758 on: July 28, 2014, 10:17:56 AM »
... what about the good conservative

Why do you judge him to be good? All you know about him is that he failed to follow his emploment terms and shot another man, who happened to be his own patient.  Sounds like a failure of the Hippocratic Oath.  You know, "First, do no harm..."

Also, how did a man with a history of arrests and mental illness get a gun?

It seems to me there is a lot of this story swept under the rug.

And hows about this guy: http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/man-shoots-teen-girl-after-she-asks-him-stop-riding-lawnmower-her-yard
"A Minnesota man who admitted shooting a 17-year-old girl multiple times because she asked him to stop trespassing on his riding lawnmower has been charged with attempted first-degree murder. "

good conservative too?  I think probably yes.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #759 on: July 28, 2014, 06:46:01 PM »
... what about the good conservative

Why do you judge him to be good?

I said that with my tongue in my cheek. Typically any conservative who uses a gun in defense of others is described as good. You know the old "how many more people would have died if he hadn't been there with his gun?" and all that jazz. It's not a completely invalid argument in this specific case.

Quote
All you know about him is that he failed to follow his emploment terms and shot another man, who happened to be his own patient.  Sounds like a failure of the Hippocratic Oath.  You know, "First, do no harm..."

That is why I am wondering what (if any) charges will be brought against him. I've read stories of people getting hit with a felony and loosing their right to own firearms for less.

Quote
Also, how did a man with a history of arrests and mental illness get a gun?

It seems to me there is a lot of this story swept under the rug.

Indeed. That story doesn't give us a whole lot to go on.

Quote
And hows about this guy:
good conservative too?  I think probably yes.

Now, why would you think he is a good conservative but question my description of the other guy using the same words? Is your tongue in your cheek too?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #760 on: July 29, 2014, 08:06:16 AM »
I said that with my tongue in my cheek.

ah.  Tough to tell subtle humor on the intertubes.

Now, why would you think he is a good conservative but question my description of the other guy using the same words? Is your tongue in your cheek too?

yeah, it is.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #761 on: July 29, 2014, 07:02:10 PM »
And hows about this guy: http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/man-shoots-teen-girl-after-she-asks-him-stop-riding-lawnmower-her-yard
"A Minnesota man who admitted shooting a 17-year-old girl multiple times because she asked him to stop trespassing on his riding lawnmower has been charged with attempted first-degree murder. "

good conservative too?  I think probably yes.

I'm glad that none of my neighbors have ever ventured into the fucknut territory.

Long ago in my youth I rented a house with 2 other people and my job was to mow the lawn. The neighbor got upset because I was mowing the lawn with a manual lawnmower, my cutting setting was lower than his (not discernible with common eyesight) and I was mowing 3 inches into his yard (probably discernible by common eyesight but who gives a shit?). So, I was mowing 3 inches of his lawn a centimeter shorter than he did and he asked me not to mow his lawn. Mmmmkay. I made sure to never fucking mow his yard at all. I placed stakes along the line he claimed and I never cut across it. If somebody is going to get that worked up about a 3" cross-over into his yard, he is a fucknut. I assumed he owned guns but I didn't want a confirmation. 


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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #762 on: July 30, 2014, 11:21:18 AM »
^^^^My social worker spidey sense suggests that this guy, who experienced you mowing three inches of his lawn as a serious violation, was a victim of child abuse.[1]

I had a putz neighbor like that. He manicures his lawn to the centimeter. He came out with a ruler to show me that my newly built fence was 1.5 inches into his property line. I had tried to get him to go in halvsies on the fence after a tree had fallen on the old one. After all, a nice fence improves the property values of both homes, right? Plus, I had kids playing in my yard who would no doubt venture into his yard without a fence. He had refused, saying he didn't care if there was fence or not. So I paid for it all and then afterwards, here he comes over to show me his 1.5 inches. :angel:
 1. A severely abused lady I know has been fighting her neighbor in court for years over minor boundary sh!t like this, costing them both thousands in court fees. She probably doesn't realize that her boundaries were violated years ago, and it was not her neighbor's fault. :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #763 on: July 30, 2014, 11:33:55 AM »
So I paid for it all and then afterwards, here he comes over to show me his 1.5 inches. :angel:

You should have shot him.  Or at least threatened to shoot him. 
"Well, see, that inch and a half?  That's my proper-tay now.  You got a problem with that, you talk to my friends: Smith and Wesson.  We clear?"

There are literally no problems a gun cannot solve.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #764 on: July 30, 2014, 02:18:57 PM »
^^^^ ;D

Yeah. But he was clearly crazier than me and probably more than willing to introduce me to his friends, Shoulder Mounted and Rocket Launcher. Besides we know what the outcome would be if there was gunplay between a god-fearing flag-waving Second Amendment rights exercising white male homeowner and a black dreadlocked atheist commie mommy.

I would go to jail for 20 years for getting in the way of his good honest conservative American bullets.

He was so annoying. He loved his lawn more than anything. He would leave his sprinkler running to water his grass for hours, until the water ran down the road. And he would set it to spray all over my fence and into my yard so I could not hang clothes out on the line.

Water wasting a$$hole. :P

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 02:24:41 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #765 on: July 30, 2014, 03:19:29 PM »
then afterwards, here he comes over to show me his 1.5 inches. :angel:

No wonder he's crabby if that's all he's got :)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #766 on: July 30, 2014, 03:53:44 PM »
He loved his lawn more than anything.

nothing a few cans of RoundupTM cannot cure.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #767 on: July 30, 2014, 04:18:49 PM »
Now, now, he has his issues. I understand that he cares for a disabled wife. However, I never, not in many years, ever saw any sign of her. I have heard him playing what sounded like a loud pornography movie, though.

Rear Window, anyone? Mute the annoying music and you have the entire movie in less than 3 minutes. Then go watch the whole thing.

« Last Edit: July 30, 2014, 06:38:49 PM by Chronos »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #768 on: July 30, 2014, 06:34:55 PM »
^^^^My social worker spidey sense suggests that this guy, who experienced you mowing three inches of his lawn as a serious violation, was a victim of child abuse.

The gift that keeps on giving.


I had a putz neighbor like that. He manicures his lawn to the centimeter. He came out with a ruler to show me that my newly built fence was 1.5 inches into his property line. I had tried to get him to go in halvsies on the fence after a tree had fallen on the old one. After all, a nice fence improves the property values of both homes, right? Plus, I had kids playing in my yard who would no doubt venture into his yard without a fence. He had refused, saying he didn't care if there was fence or not. So I paid for it all and then afterwards, here he comes over to show me his 1.5 inches. :angel:

The current fencing for my yard is shared by neighbors and the fencing sits directly on the property lines. However, if I replace the fencing I plan on involving every adjacent property owner in the process to such an excruciating detail that they will be begging me to leave them alone. I will have them sign paperwork that the job is being done right at every step along the way. I will engage in role reversal on that issue. I have three neighbors who are unlikely to say a peep about it -- the 4th neighbor with whom I share about 6 feet of fencing, I think he will be a problem. He seems nice but a little odd at the same time. It's always the small things that people get worked up about.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #769 on: July 31, 2014, 10:54:07 AM »
back to guns...

a pretty sensible (I think) OP-Ed on guns

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/opinion/nicholas-kristof-our-blind-spot-about-guns.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region%C2%AEion=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=0

Quote
If we had the same auto fatality rate today that we had in 1921, by my calculations we would have 715,000 Americans dying annually in vehicle accidents.

Instead, we’ve reduced the fatality rate by more than 95 percent — not by confiscating cars, but by regulating them and their drivers sensibly.

We could have said, “Cars don’t kill people. People kill people,” and there would have been an element of truth to that. Many accidents are a result of alcohol consumption, speeding, road rage or driver distraction. Or we could have said, “It’s pointless because even if you regulate cars, then people will just run each other down with bicycles,” and that, too, would have been partly true.

Yet, instead, we built a system that protects us from ourselves. This saves hundreds of thousands of lives a year and is a model of what we should do with guns in America.

...
continued
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #770 on: July 31, 2014, 12:15:51 PM »
^^^Very sensible article. Regulate guns like we gradually came to regulate cars. Would be considered enough to persuade people in most any other country.

But there are American people-- a minority but a vocal minority-- who don't even think the government should regulate cars. Or food. Or drugs. Or anything. Especially not guns. I have not found that mentality in any other country but the US.

Even in places with similar gun-loving pioneer/hunting cultures like South Africa and Australia, the people don't have the same adversarial relationship with government regulation of firearms.

We are a curious people.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Backspace

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #771 on: July 31, 2014, 01:52:51 PM »
a pretty sensible (I think) OP-Ed on guns

Thanks for posting that ST.  Curious, the author mentions an 1850s photo of Dodge City, KS sign saying “The Carrying of Fire Arms Strictly Prohibited.”  However, no link to that photo was provided.  I searched for the photo on the intertubes, and while many articles refer to the same Dodge City photo, none provide or link to it (that I could find).

Anyone have a link to this photo?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #772 on: July 31, 2014, 02:10:05 PM »
Anyone have a link to this photo?

I believe it is linked in this thread somewhere.  If not, it may be in the "guns again" thread.  I am pretty sure I linked it or a story about it.

But here ya go.  I searched "wild west gun control".  First image link.  Truth #7, which is the third one down.
http://listverse.com/2013/02/18/9-crazy-truths-about-the-wild-west/

more on that here:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/06/05/1304765/-The-Mild-Mild-West
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #773 on: July 31, 2014, 02:20:29 PM »
Ah - there it is.  Thank you sir.
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Offline Tero

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #774 on: July 31, 2014, 04:53:11 PM »
« Last Edit: August 01, 2014, 09:18:24 PM by Chronos »

Offline atheola

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #775 on: July 31, 2014, 10:18:16 PM »
I read gun fails almost every week or however it's published and suggested they change the name to The Irresponsible Gun Owners Lobby.  ;)
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #776 on: August 04, 2014, 08:42:01 PM »


   I realize that those who dislike president Obama can't imagine he has no horrible hidden agenda.  I see a man who objectively can't imagine the U.S. society has the view of gun control it has.  Not that he is attempting to change it, but as a politician who basically does society's bidding and watches the congress reflect what constituents want, is surprised that after plus Newtown plus plus people did not demand stronger national gun laws.  The argument now becomes whether gun control trumps all other policies as the thing that will keep the right in power and scare the left from asking for changes. It must be an interesting dynamic for the world to watch - what US society demands.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #777 on: August 13, 2014, 09:08:39 PM »
Excellent contrast about guns and race:

The True Stereotypes Behind Michael Brown's Death

Quote

A few weeks ago, white 18-year-old Steve Lohner could tote a gun around in Aurora, Colorado (where in 2012 James Holmes gunned 12 people to death and injured 70 others), practically taunting law enforcement  to mess with him, in a quest to make a showy point about gun rights. Who among us can pretend that if a black kid was doing the same thing he wouldn’t be much more likely to wind up killed? Those inclined to pretend might note that meanwhile, black 22-year-old John Crawford was killed two weeks later for holding a toy gun at a Wal-Mart in Ohio.

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Offline atheola

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #778 on: August 15, 2014, 04:33:22 PM »
Often overlooked is the correlation between income and gun ownership. The vast majority of guns in the US are not in the poorest communities mainly because in the poorest communities guns usually end up in pawn shops or an absurd number of people in those communities are prohibited from possessing guns because of felony records, usually drug charges.. Most gun are in middle and upper class neighborhoods because they've been convinced the poor are coming to steal all their crap..
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #779 on: August 15, 2014, 10:12:12 PM »
In my experience the most common firearm owners are people who would qualify as lower-middle to middle class incomes and they usually have multiple firearms. Of course, those with more money can purchase a greater number of firearms at greater expense. Far fewer high-income earners have firearms in comparison to lower income classes. I have not heard a different reason among the classes for why they possess firearms.

Certainly, this could be dependent on the area of the country. I assume everyone in Texas has a closet in their homes dedicated to holding multiple firearms. Not so in Maryland.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #780 on: August 18, 2014, 02:10:46 PM »
good point: where is the NRA in light of the police actions in Ferguson?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/17/1321819/-Ferguson-Clive-Bundy-and-the-Second-Amendment?showAll=yes

Isn't this the tyranny the gun-guys claim the 2nd amendment is for?  Why are the oath keepers not showing up to protect the community of Ferguson from the police, as they did Cliven Bundy?[1]
 1. http://crooksandliars.com/2014/04/back-bundy-ranch-it-s-oath-keepers-vs
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Offline Dante

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #781 on: August 18, 2014, 02:33:15 PM »
good point: where is the NRA in light of the police actions in Ferguson?

Not exactly the NRA, but pretty close. Apparently, they're against the militarization of the cops. For now, at least.

Quote
“Why are those guns available to the police?” asked Erich Pratt, spokesman for the conservative Gun Owners of America. “We don’t technically have the military operating within our borders, but they’re being given the gear to basically operate in that capacity.”

Gun Owners of America and the ACLU are both backing a forthcoming bill from Rep. Hank Johnson (D-Ga.) that would curtail the sale of DOD weapons to local police departments.

http://www.salon.com/2014/08/18/tear_gassing_cops_new_opponent_why_gun_owners_of_america_wants_reform/
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #782 on: August 18, 2014, 03:40:51 PM »
Not exactly the NRA, but pretty close. Apparently, they're against the militarization of the cops. For now, at least.

I don't understand.  They are participating in the democratic process.  First amendment kind of stuff. 

I was looking for something more second amendmenty.  You know, set up their own defensive perimeter, put snipers in the area targeting police, threaten to shoot cops, use their wimmin and children as human shields, etc.  Like they did in Bundyland. Why the more hands off approach on this one?

And it is really lacking in bombastic rhetoric.  I see them talking about demilitarizing the po-po, which is good, but I definitely do not see them talking about arming the residents of Ferguson.  They've not said anything directly about the shooting.  No talk about tyranny blah blah blah. 

Why the difference?     

Plus, they are not the NRA and do not have anywhere near the kind of pull the NRA has.  They were (rightly) described in the article you linked as "a crazy group to the right of the NRA". 

Quote
Larry Pratt, executive director of the group Gun Owners of America, was quoted Tuesday as saying he’s “kind of glad” if lawmakers fear violence from members of his organization.
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/gun-owners-america-director-kind-glad-lawmakers-feared-violence-members-article-1.1868425


more on this idea here:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tures/the-group-gun-owners-of-a_b_5677182.html



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