Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 25836 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #667 on: May 07, 2014, 03:06:51 PM »
And do you think the shooter should have to prove that they made every reasonable attempt to avoid a felony conviction? I’m not sure I can get behind that. It’s too subjective, IMO.

Yes, but I think that is fairly easy to do.  For example, if you could not exit the house because, say, you were upstairs in your bedroom and it sounded like the bad guy was down stairs, it would be a reasonable action to avoid confrontation to lock your BR door and call the police at that point.  If the bad guy broke into your locked bedroom, it would be reasonable to shoot him.  It would be on record with the dispatcher and the door would be damaged.   

Because, like G-Roll said, it's a given that one takes a great risk, penalty of prison or death, when breaking into homes.

That does not give license to home owners to shoot.  I think the causal chain is backward.  That homeowners might under certain circumstances shoot is what makes it risky. 

It should be the State's duty to prove that the homicide wasn't justifiable.

That sounds suspiciously like stand your ground.  It is also the mindset that causes many of the gun fails reported here. Look at all the people who shot a friend or relative because they thought it was an intruder.  If they'd retreated instead of pulled the trigger, those accidents would be avoided.

Statistics are great, except when they're not. And when it involves you , you won't much care about what statistics show.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make or argue against.  For the record, based on the rather ambiguous story, I would say Dunlap would have been justified in shooting January.

But, yes, occasionally terrible things happen.  That is implicit in the statistics. 

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Offline Dante

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #668 on: May 07, 2014, 04:33:13 PM »
And do you think the shooter should have to prove that they made every reasonable attempt to avoid a felony conviction? I’m not sure I can get behind that. It’s too subjective, IMO.

Yes, but I think that is fairly easy to do. 

Is it easier than making it the duty of the State prove that they didn’t make a reasonable attempt? That was my point, so poorly expressed. Yes, it’s similar to Make My Day laws, but it seems logical to me that the homeowner/dweller should receive quite a bit more benefit of the doubt, considering they shot an intruder who was clearly breaking the law.

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For example, if you could not exit the house because, say, you were upstairs in your bedroom and it sounded like the bad guy was down stairs, it would be a reasonable action to avoid confrontation to lock your BR door and call the police at that point.  If the bad guy broke into your locked bedroom, it would be reasonable to shoot him.  It would be on record with the dispatcher and the door would be damaged.

In an ideal world, yes, of course. It irks me when some of these people claim self defense, but never even attempted to call the police, or even tell the intruder to leave, on penalty of being shot. Actually shooting someone should be a last resort.

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Because, like G-Roll said, it's a given that one takes a great risk, penalty of prison or death, when breaking into homes.

That does not give license to home owners to shoot.  I think the causal chain is backward.  That homeowners might under certain circumstances shoot is what makes it risky.

Well yeah! Of course the homeowner might shoot! So might the cops when they show up, but that’s your other thread. I don’t see how the chain is backwards. It’s reality. Engage in criminal behavior, risk death.

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It should be the State's duty to prove that the homicide wasn't justifiable.

That sounds suspiciously like stand your ground.  It is also the mindset that causes many of the gun fails reported here. Look at all the people who shot a friend or relative because they thought it was an intruder.  If they'd retreated instead of pulled the trigger, those accidents would be avoided.

Sure. But how does one prove that the guy lying dead on the floor was an imminent threat, if there’s no calls to the police, no broken down bedroom doors? Do you take him at his word, or do you throw him in prison for killing an intruder?

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Statistics are great, except when they're not. And when it involves you , you won't much care about what statistics show.

I am not sure what point you are trying to make or argue against.  For the record, based on the rather ambiguous story, I would say Dunlap would have been justified in shooting January.

But, yes, occasionally terrible things happen.  That is implicit in the statistics.

Of course.

Sorry, it was the only story I could find, for some reason, but I think the kid is either going to trial soon, or is on trial now, but nothing else showed up quickly on my Google search. Poor research on my part.

My point was that when you, Mr. Screwtape, encounter an intruder, you’d better hope that the statistics are in your favor, because they weren’t for the Dunlaps. And some of us would rather not be the outlier of your statistics.

There's an old saying; Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #669 on: May 07, 2014, 05:41:05 PM »
I have a young relative (aged 15) who has, in the past two years, embarked on a career of rampant stupidity. He sneaks out of his home at night to get high or drunk with his friends, has been kicked out of school several times, is having unprotected sex, and once, broke into a house where the family was at home. :o

What he is doing is waaaay self-destructive and his family is falling apart over his behavior. He will listen to nobody. His folks have spent a ton of money trying to straighten him out.  He has already done a stint in juvie--the house breaking incident. He is seeing a counselor. He is on probation. His dad wants to chain him to his bed. His mom's hair has gone completely white.[1]

He is an idiot, who actually blogs about all of his misbehavior on Facebook. I want to kick his a$$.  >:(

Having said all that, none of what he has done is worthy of the death penalty. He has not  gotten in any fights or hurt anyone. He has never (to our knowledge) been caught with a weapon. He has not (to our knowledge) stolen anything. The housebreaking was on a dare. Clearly, it was illegal and dangerous and he should not have done it. But he is an idiot.  &)

Again, he is an idiot. Did I tell y'all he was an idiot?

However, if he does not get shot by the next homeowner he and his buddies break in on, he will probably grow out of it. Most teenaged idiots do. Very few people in their 30's do the same stupid, dangerous and illegal things they did in their teens. Even gang bangers get tired and settle down.

But this is the USA, not Canada and not Europe. There are a lot of scared people with guns in their homes, and he might break in on one of them the next time.

We are all holding our breath. :P
 1. I know, I know it probably was not overnight, but it was pretty damn fast.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #670 on: May 08, 2014, 09:16:49 AM »
But how does one prove that the guy lying dead on the floor was an imminent threat, if there’s no calls to the police, no broken down bedroom doors? Do you take him at his word, or do you throw him in prison for killing an intruder?

I don't know.  That's a tough question.  I do not think there is enough circumstantial information to say.   

My point was that when you, Mr. Screwtape, encounter an intruder, you’d better hope that the statistics are in your favor, because they weren’t for the Dunlaps. And some of us would rather not be the outlier of your statistics.

Of course.  Nobody wants to be the outlier.  But I think the solution is more complicated than just having a gun.  Also, I don't see how that relates to the conversation.  My point of the statistics was to show how mosty unnecessary it is to shoot someone should you find them in your house.  How retreating and avoiding confrontation is a better and almost always safer option.

And even if an intruder is armed, it is still better to avoid confrontation.  Just because you are armed and righteous does not make you bulletproof.  You are as likely to get shot as the other guy.

There's an old saying; Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

No argument here.  But I also would rather not shoot anyone if I can avoid it. 

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Offline Dante

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #671 on: May 08, 2014, 09:46:57 AM »
But how does one prove that the guy lying dead on the floor was an imminent threat, if there’s no calls to the police, no broken down bedroom doors? Do you take him at his word, or do you throw him in prison for killing an intruder?

I don't know.  That's a tough question.  I do not think there is enough circumstantial information to say.   

Right, I don't think so either. But since the justice system in this country is allegedly set up to protect individual rights, I think it better to put the onus on the State to prove that the shooter was in the wrong and committed a crime. Hence, Make My Day laws.

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There's an old saying; Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6.

No argument here.  But I also would rather not shoot anyone if I can avoid it.

You and me both, brother.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #672 on: May 08, 2014, 11:15:45 AM »
I think it better to put the onus on the State to prove that the shooter was in the wrong and committed a crime. Hence, Make My Day laws.

I hope you are only speaking of situations where it involves a home owner shooting an intruder.

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Offline Dante

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #673 on: May 08, 2014, 11:20:08 AM »
I think it better to put the onus on the State to prove that the shooter was in the wrong and committed a crime. Hence, Make My Day laws.

I hope you are only speaking of situations where it involves a home owner shooting an intruder.

Well, I was, but actually that's the way it works for all shootings, or any other crime for that matter. The onus IS on the State to prove a crime was committed, in any situation. Innocent until proven guilty, and all that jazz.

But I feel I may be missing your point.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #674 on: May 09, 2014, 02:02:35 PM »
gunfail 68
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/07/1294922/-Poor-etiquette-firing-into-a-neighbor-s-home-while-pistol-whipping-one-s-girlfriend-GunFAIL-LXVIII

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an 11-year-old boy, stands out as one of the most egregious, and yet in many ways, the most routine of our GunFAIL stories. He and his 11-year-old cousin had asked to see his uncle's gun collection, which the uncle dutifully unlocked from his gun safe, suggesting he was perhaps a rather responsible gun owner after all, though the benefit of hindsight tells us that time was quickly coming to an end. In demonstrating the coolness of the laser sight attached to his Glock 27, the uncle fell prey to the old "there's no magazine in it" trick, trained the laser sight on his nephew's forehead, and then threw a lifetime of responsible gun ownership away in a split second. He also killed his nephew, of course. But the real tragedy is that now the uncle looks like a simple "gun nut," which is politically difficult.


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5.MCINTOSH, AL, 4/25/14: Sexton Adams, of McIntosh, Ala., said he accidentally shot his 17-year-old son Darius Friday morning after the boy allegedly came home behaving in a bizarre and aggressive manner. Adams said he tried scaring him with a gun, but it went off by mistake.

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12.AMARILLO, TX, 4/26/14: Amarillo police are investigating a Saturday morning aggravated assault in which a man pistol-whipped a woman, causing the gun to fire a bullet through the front door of an apartment.


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20.WEST ORANGE, NJ, 4/27/14: A federal air marshal accidentally shot himself in the leg with his service weapon inside of a West Orange office building this morning, police said.


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33.BRONX, NY, 4/30/14: An off-duty New York City corrections officer accidentally fired his weapon and the bullet went into his neighbor's apartment. The 52 year old corrections department captain accidentally fired a shot from his service revolver
(A captain!!)

« Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 02:11:19 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #675 on: May 09, 2014, 07:47:17 PM »
Quote
an 11-year-old boy, stands out as one of the most egregious, and yet in many ways, the most routine of our GunFAIL stories. He and his 11-year-old cousin had asked to see his uncle's gun collection, which the uncle dutifully unlocked from his gun safe, suggesting he was perhaps a rather responsible gun owner after all, though the benefit of hindsight tells us that time was quickly coming to an end. In demonstrating the coolness of the laser sight attached to his Glock 27, the uncle fell prey to the old "there's no magazine in it" trick, trained the laser sight on his nephew's forehead, and then threw a lifetime of responsible gun ownership away in a split second. He also killed his nephew, of course. But the real tragedy is that now the uncle looks like a simple "gun nut," which is politically difficult.

That's beyond heinous. And, yes, he is a GUN NUT if he is stupid enough to aim a gun at anyone and pull the trigger -- he is a nut holding a gun, I don't give a damn whether he's nuts about guns or just nuts.

What would he think of somebody carrying a plastic container for gasoline inside a house and then turning it upside down to see if there is any kerosene in the container? Wouldn't he freak out about that? What about kids playing with matches? Is that okay? They can't burn the house down, right?


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5.MCINTOSH, AL, 4/25/14: Sexton Adams, of McIntosh, Ala., said he accidentally shot his 17-year-old son Darius Friday morning after the boy allegedly came home behaving in a bizarre and aggressive manner. Adams said he tried scaring him with a gun, but it went off by mistake.

GUN NUT.  Gotta call 'em as I see 'em. A gun nut thinks that guns can solve just about anything. I'm sure he has a 4x4 and thinks he can drive at 50mph on a highway covered with ice.


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20.WEST ORANGE, NJ, 4/27/14: A federal air marshal accidentally shot himself in the leg with his service weapon inside of a West Orange office building this morning, police said.

Why was his hand even on his firearm while inside an office building? Not a court house, no attempted arrest? Showing off?




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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #676 on: May 15, 2014, 12:54:52 PM »
Some groups of women - mostly mothers - have gotten together to promote safer gun ownership.  They advocate things like background checks and technological features on guns to make them safer.  In return, pro gun people have spit on them (literally) generally bullied them and threatened their lives.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-bullying-open-carry-women-moms-texas
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After a fundraiser one night during the program, Longdon returned home around 10 p.m., parked her ramp-equipped van and began unloading herself. As she wheeled up to her house, a man stepped out of the shadows. He was dressed in black and had a rifle, "like something out of a commando movie," Longdon told me. He took aim at her and pulled the trigger. Longdon was hit with a stream of water. "Don't you wish you had a gun now, bitch?" he scoffed before taking off.

Are these the people we really want to have guns?

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Offline Boots

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #677 on: May 15, 2014, 02:12:16 PM »
Some groups of women - mostly mothers - have gotten together to promote safer gun ownership.  They advocate things like background checks and technological features on guns to make them safer.  In return, pro gun people have spit on them (literally) generally bullied them and threatened their lives.

http://m.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-bullying-open-carry-women-moms-texas
Quote
After a fundraiser one night during the program, Longdon returned home around 10 p.m., parked her ramp-equipped van and began unloading herself. As she wheeled up to her house, a man stepped out of the shadows. He was dressed in black and had a rifle, "like something out of a commando movie," Longdon told me. He took aim at her and pulled the trigger. Longdon was hit with a stream of water. "Don't you wish you had a gun now, bitch?" he scoffed before taking off.

Are these the people we really want to have guns?

One of the comments on this article had an excellent question, which I think is a brilliant idea that someone should try: would the Open Carry folks react the same way if a large group of African-American young men armed with semi-automatic rifles descended upon a public place?
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #678 on: May 15, 2014, 03:00:34 PM »
Let's try it! Maybe stand around polling places in white communities on election day brandishing weapons. New Black Panther Party, anyone?

I remember when inner city black folk started arming themselves against police brutality in the 1970's. White conservatives did not exactly respond by expressing support for citizens' Second Amendment rights. As I recall, they supported the police and voted for "law and order" politicians.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #679 on: May 15, 2014, 03:08:50 PM »
I wanted to add, that while these gun nuts stress their rights, they are working very hard at denying other people's right to free speech.  So when they talk about fighting tyranny, they are clearly deluded hypocrites.  They promote tyranny.




Let's try it! Maybe stand around polling places in white communities on election day brandishing weapons. New Black Panther Party, anyone?

didn't that happen recently?  A black panther in fatigues was handing out flyers and the right wingers freaked out.  Can't find the article...
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #680 on: May 20, 2014, 08:12:03 AM »
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #681 on: May 20, 2014, 09:08:58 AM »
The weekly carnage: gunfail 69
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/17/1296899/-What-part-of-the-right-to-light-a-forest-on-fire-do-you-not-understand-GunFAIL-LXIX?showAll=yes

Highlights:
#7 A man accidentally shot himself in the leg while re-holstering his gun at a firing range
#11 An accidental shooting has occurred during a SWAT training conference at a shooting range
#12 The Peewink Fire...was started by a "homemade exploding target"
#16 Authorities say the police chief of a central New Jersey town was shot in the leg when his service weapon accidentally discharged inside the town’s municipal building.
#19 A loaded handgun found in the parking lot of East High School on Monday belongs to a former city councilman, ... who is a substitute teacher at the school.
#23 "It's one of those things where, when it happens to someone else, you think, 'How stupid can they be?'" he said. "And then you do it yourself."
I think this one perfectly summarizes the problems with having a gun.  No matter how careful and responsible you are, you are still just a person.  And people make mistakes.  And with guns, the potential cost of the mistake is so much higher than most mistakes.



sure to be on next week's gunfail: guy finds a kevlar vest, puts it on and says, "hey, someone shoot me!"  Hilarity ensues.
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/15/sc-woman-fires-shot-at-friend-to-test-his-bulletproof-vest-but-she-misses-and-hes-dead/

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #682 on: May 20, 2014, 09:16:25 AM »
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #683 on: May 20, 2014, 06:42:36 PM »
Or that the majority of patrons of Chipotle do not want guns in public ... in Texas ...
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Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #684 on: May 21, 2014, 11:29:14 AM »
Idiots.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #685 on: May 24, 2014, 07:14:47 PM »
Another crazy person with a gun ...

Transcript of the disturbing video 'Elliot Rodger's Retribution'

Quote

"You girls have never been attracted to me. I don't know why you girls aren't attracted to me but I will punish you all for it. It's an injustice, a crime because I don't know what you don't see in me, I'm the perfect guy and yet you throw yourselves at all these obnoxious men instead of me, the supreme gentleman. I will punish all of you for it. [laughs]

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline shnozzola

Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #686 on: May 24, 2014, 07:56:15 PM »
The dynamics of this latest shooting should again make us look at ourselves.  College kid with problems goes off the deep end and shoots, murders and injures several.  Certainly not the first male that feels ignored, but the rage, the ego, and the ability to act on it.  Mental problems, guns, video.  What are the differences these days?  Is it more mental problems?  Is it that the support of family and friends has changed?  Is it the access to guns by those with mental problems? Is it that mental health laws prevent the support needed due to privacy?   Is this always going on and cable news keeps us bombarded?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #687 on: May 25, 2014, 05:09:10 AM »
If having 20 children and 6 adults killed in an elementary school massacre doesn't result in any real reform, but rather adamant recommendations that teachers should be equipped with firearms, this case of the crazed virgin won't do anything at all.


Nada.


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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #688 on: May 25, 2014, 05:12:12 PM »
Our country is screwed.  >:(

In Canada, England and Australia, they had one mass shooting by a crazy person. And they overwhelmingly reformed their gun laws. In the US we just hold our breath and wait for the next one. Because freedom.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #689 on: May 26, 2014, 09:39:47 PM »
In Canada, England and Australia, they had one mass shooting by a crazy person. And they overwhelmingly reformed their gun laws. In the US we just hold our breath and wait for the next one. Because freedom.

Without mass shootings cable news would have to layoff a lot of employees.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #690 on: May 27, 2014, 07:23:15 AM »
Good editorial:
I was the NRA
http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/25/i-was-the-nra/
Quote
...
I used to hunt and I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the hell out of it. But I wouldn’t consider attempting it now, in an age where gun-owners lump AR-15?s in with sporting guns. Where a lousy shooter can disguise his inability to shoot with an extended clip that allows him to keep shooting until he finally hits something, anything. Where hunters feel the need for silencers for God knows what reason.

...
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #691 on: May 27, 2014, 08:26:20 AM »
gun fail 70 (and 71 all rolled into one)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/26/1298679/-Welcome-to-WalMart-Shoot-1-customer-this-week-get-another-of-equal-lesser-value-FREE-GunFAIL-LXX

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26 people accidentally shot themselves, six accidentally fired their weapons while cleaning them, five dropped them while out in public (though they didn't always discharge), four accidentally blasted through into their neighbors' homes (what we call "home invasion shootings"), three shot themselves or others while at the practice range, two shot themselves or others while trying to shoot dogs they claimed were attacking them (both missed the dogs, incidentally), and one person was shot in a hunting accident.
...
Four law enforcement officers were involved in various GunFAILs, and four other Responsible Gun Owners had GunFAILs while out and about among the consuming public—two of which were at WalMarts—and both involving injury.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #692 on: May 27, 2014, 10:48:52 AM »
The NRA and their crazy followers have created the situation where, one day ... some day in the future, somebody will be coming after their guns. Paranoia fulfilled.

But exactly what will occur to make that day arrive?

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #693 on: May 27, 2014, 10:54:40 AM »
Not a gun fail, but are police always sufficiently responsible to possess a gun?

Veteran New Jersey cop arrested for allegedly masturbating at Starbucks

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Lt. Benito Gonzalez Jr. of the Camden County Police Department was off-duty at the time of the May 7 incident, when he was allegedly seen at a Cherry Hill Starbucks, pulled down his shorts and engaged in the lewd act — prompting an employee to call the police. Gonzalez has been removed from duty and suspended without pay while the incident is being investigated.

After background checks, job training and on-the-job experience do not prevent a police officer from masturbating in public, then why would a background check, firearms training and a few years of possession of a firearm suddenly mean that a person is a "good guy with a gun"?



John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #694 on: May 28, 2014, 10:33:30 AM »
More adventures of the Open Carry nuts in Texas
http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/05/guns-open-carry-chilis-sonic-videos

restaurants are kicking them out.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #695 on: May 28, 2014, 03:18:21 PM »
I don't know if someone posted this but I just read at cbsnews that a 3 year old fatally shot his 18 month old brother:

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/cops-boy-three-fatally-shoots-18-month-old-brother-in-arizona/

How does a three year old get a gun? That's what I call neglectful parents.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

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