Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 21404 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2319
  • Darwins +125/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #638 on: April 29, 2014, 07:58:12 PM »
He was trying to avoid hitting the car, so multiple shots in the same direction might cause one to lose count.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #639 on: May 02, 2014, 10:31:10 AM »
I saw the one with the exchange student.  There was another one in the news too.  This guy not only set it up, but he tape recorded it too:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/04/23/youre-dead-chilling-audio-of-minnesota-homeowner-repeatedly-shooting-unarmed-intruders/?tid=pm_national_pop

Quote
Then comes the sound of more shots. She falls down the stairs. “Oh, sorry about that,” Smith tells her. She screams, “Oh my God!”

Then more shots. Smith tells her, “You’re dying,” and calls her a “bitch,” the AP reported.

After more labored breathing and another dragging sound, Smith calls her “bitch” again. He told authorities that after he moved her, he noticed she was still gasping and didn’t want her to suffer, so he fired under her chin with a 22.-caliber handgun

Sean "Sedition" Hannity defended this guy.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/05/01/hannity-defends-vigilante-killer/199112


Also, Gun fail 67 
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/04/30/1293416/-Whaddya-mean-it-s-too-dangerous-for-me-to-drive-I-ll-show-you-dangerous-BLAM-GunFAIL-LXVII


Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #640 on: May 02, 2014, 11:02:38 AM »
I heard this story but forgot all about it.

His house was broken into more than once by the teen. Did he ever call the police? If so I partly blame the police for letting it escalate to this level. I know that if I caught someone in my home who didn’t belong there they might get shot. I would like to think of myself cool headed enough to use my words rather than my Mossberg but I have never been in that situation.

I am for people being able to defend themselves in their home but I think he set a trap to get those meddling kids. I am unaware of the events leading to this so I will not type out my final opinion. But I can think of many options right off the bat to keep my punk ass 18 year old neighbor from BREAKING INTO MY HOUSE.  Yet if those fail I know I don’t get to set a trap for the sole purpose of killing people. Oh wait, maiming them rendering them defenseless and then executing them. He deserves to go to jail for that.

I find it hard however to feel for the two kids. Yes they were killed in a horrible way but I kind of feel like "live by the sword die by the sword" applies to them. This is why you don’t break into people's houses. There is a strong chance you will get shot. And breaking and entering is not something that a curious, innocent, fun loving 18 year old kid does. 

I really hope I am not agreeing with Hannity. I won't be able to look myself in the mirror.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #641 on: May 05, 2014, 11:30:46 AM »
shocking, the SCOTUS allows my state to maintain a sane (saner than most states, anyway) approach to guns.

Quote
The court decided not to hear a challenge to a New Jersey state law that requires people who want to carry handguns to show they have a special reason before they can get a permit.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2014/05/05/supreme-court-declines-to-hear-challenge-to-new-jersey-gun-regulations/
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2319
  • Darwins +125/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #642 on: May 05, 2014, 12:38:56 PM »
All the people in NJ who need to carry one ... Just Do ItTM.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #643 on: May 06, 2014, 07:38:13 AM »
A company named Armatix made a smart gun that can only be fired in proximity to a special wristwatch as a safety feature.  Yay.  Except gun advocates freaked the heck out and threatend to shut down gun stores that sold them and even made numerous death threats.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/28/us/politics/smart-firearm-draws-wrath-of-the-gun-lobby.html?hp&_r=0

This one is even crazier. 
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookman/2014/may/05/just-when-gun-debate-could-not-get-crazier/
the guy who owns the gun store (and was threatened) makes the point that these people are being stupid hypocrites.  But then he goes on to say they ought to shoot the politicians in the streets.  "There's a $%$%@ reason why we got [guns]."

America, we are headed for bad times if we don't do something about people like this right quick.  This is a cry for help.  They are begging us to take their guns away.

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Boots

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1262
  • Darwins +95/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • Living the Dream
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #644 on: May 06, 2014, 08:25:19 AM »
A company named Armatix made a smart gun that can only be fired in proximity to a special wristwatch as a safety feature.  Yay.  Except gun advocates freaked the heck out and threatend to shut down gun stores that sold them and even made numerous death threats.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/28/us/politics/smart-firearm-draws-wrath-of-the-gun-lobby.html?hp&_r=0

This one is even crazier. 
http://www.ajc.com/weblogs/jay-bookman/2014/may/05/just-when-gun-debate-could-not-get-crazier/
the guy who owns the gun store (and was threatened) makes the point that these people are being stupid hypocrites.  But then he goes on to say they ought to shoot the politicians in the streets.  "There's a $%$%@ reason why we got [guns]."

America, we are headed for bad times if we don't do something about people like this right quick.  This is a cry for help.  They are begging us to take their guns away.

*sigh*

why are we, as a collective, so monumentally stupid??
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #645 on: May 06, 2014, 12:19:44 PM »
What disappoints me most is that an individual has the right to bear arms but voting is not a right. And that’s cool... Because owning a gun is more important than voting. You know the democratic system that the patriots want to use their second amendment rights to defend against tyranny. So they can shoot government and military personnel to protect the privilege (not right) to vote. FREEDOM! I wonder why you don’t hear about armed patriots protesting gerrymandering districts?
The gun paranoia is getting old. Everything from that unnamed shadowy government agency that is going to come around and take everyone's gun away to a government mandate on smart guns. I will give the nuts a point though that having to wear a wrist watch to use a gun in self-defense is a bit impractical, but in my opinion so is carrying your weapon all through your house at all times  in the off chance someone tries to break in. What I don’t get is how the mandate of smart guns is an unconstitutional thing. If it ran on something other than a wrist watch like a palm print or something like that I don’t see how that would be a bad idea. You could then close the door on second hand gun ownership and disarm criminals. Then only responsible gun owners could own a gun. Until people figure out how to jail break or hack a smart gun or print their own bazooka.

I would also like to toss in the idea that antigovernment individuals or people who don’t recognize the existence of the US government don’t get a say in  the policies or laws it pumps out. If you are a sovereign citizen you are a fucking tourist held to the host countries laws. You then have as much a say what goes on around here as what the goings are in Mexico or France. Surrender your citizenship and enjoy your stay. Go sightseeing or something.     *rant off

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #646 on: May 06, 2014, 01:39:22 PM »
I wonder why you don’t hear about armed patriots protesting gerrymandering districts?

That is a question I frequently ask - why is the second amendment the only right gun nuts want to violently defend?  Why do they not shoot a bunch of cops and tyrants over search and seizure laws? Why did they not shoot a bunch of cops and tyrants over "free speech zones"? 

The conclusion I come to is that they are full of beans.  They don't actually care about rights.  They just like playing with guns and this is the best excuse they can come up with. "To..uh... fight Tyrany!  FREEDOM!! WOOOOOO!" Imbiciles.  They aren't fighting shit.


I will give the nuts a point though that having to wear a wrist watch to use a gun in self-defense is a bit impractical,,

Is that why they are making death threats agains gun manufacturers and shop owners?  Because they find that particular gun impractical?
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #647 on: May 06, 2014, 03:02:08 PM »
I will give the nuts a point though that having to wear a wrist watch to use a gun in self-defense is a bit impractical,,
Is that why they are making death threats agains gun manufacturers and shop owners?  Because they find that particular gun impractical?

No.. Of course not...
I feel these individuals are hood winked by the gun lobby. They are zealots to the NRA. It’s a cult all their own rooted in many tangible and honorable things like country, duty, responsibility, patriotism, ect.. I say rooted in but it's actually just twisted political bullshit. For the sole purpose to sell guns while hiding behind the guise of all those wonderful characteristics.
The news recently said that the real strength of the gun lobby or NRA is its organization and ability to communicate. I think that is on display here. Just wait until one of those brain children read that there is some kind of chip in smart guns! Never mind they don’t know what kind of chip it is or what purpose it serves. The word chip alone is like a red flag or dog whistle for gun nuts. Computer chips are used by the government to track you. That is all. Future prediction... that is the next statement from the gun nuts. Smart guns track you with chips. Like a license plate on your car, GPS in your phone, or registering for anything. But you know tracking weapons is tyranny cuz guns aint dangerous, they don’t kill people.

All the gun nuts always promote good guys with guns. "The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun" right? How is this not a step to keep guns out of the hands of bad guys? Or perhaps bad guys should be able to buy guns too, so that way the gun lobby makes money! Then they whip up fear about bad guys with guns and everyone decides they need to buy another gun. I know a few gun nuts and this seems to be the incoherent formula they follow.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6410
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #648 on: May 06, 2014, 04:01:08 PM »
Seems pretty straightforward-- make handguns that are supposedly for protection only fire when in the hands of the registered owner. (The good guy, if you will.) Do it by palm print or DNA or pheromones. Make it so that it has to be pointing away from the owner. A bad guy wrests it from you and aims it at you-- it jams and does not fire.

Have a giant exchange/buyback to collect all the old-style guns. Melt them all down into scrap, except a few for collectors and in museums. Anyone caught committing a crime with an old-style gun goes to jail for 20 years.

No more kids shooting kids at school. No more guns in backpacks or purses going off in stores. No more bad guys shooting good people with guns.

Objections to this kind of technology are the stuff of nightmares.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2319
  • Darwins +125/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #649 on: May 06, 2014, 05:38:12 PM »
I will give the nuts a point though that having to wear a wrist watch to use a gun in self-defense is a bit impractical,,

Is that why they are making death threats agains gun manufacturers and shop owners?  Because they find that particular gun impractical?

I thought I read that NJ had a law that said something like whenever another state begins to produce these kinds of guns then all guns in NJ must meet the same requirement. I got the impression is was some kind of "poison pill" legislation that causes gun owners to instantly freak out because these types of weapons would likely be foisted on them in other states. The whole thing sounded bizarre, but then again, when it comes to anything about firearms gun nuts just love bizarre.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #650 on: May 06, 2014, 06:08:10 PM »
http://www.northjersey.com/news/nj-state-news/nj-s-2002-smart-gun-law-could-take-effect-soon-limit-supply-1.576177

Quote
For years, they’ve existed only in science fiction and the archives of the New Jersey Legislature: handguns that fire only in the grip of an authorized user.

And yet these so-called smart guns soon could be the only kind sold legally in New Jersey under a state law that has languished on the books for a decade.

The law, which requires the state’s gun dealers to exclusively sell smart guns within three years after the first one hits the market, has been largely forgotten since the Legislature adopted it in 2002. But it could be dusted off as early as this year as technology finally catches up to the vision of lawmakers at a time when the debate over gun control is more combative and divisive than at any time in recent history.
Apparently NJ has been talking about smart guns for a while now. This article is from last year. This does make things much more interesting..

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2319
  • Darwins +125/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #651 on: May 06, 2014, 06:08:43 PM »
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Online penfold

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • Darwins +63/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • ...buzz buzz buzz...
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #652 on: May 07, 2014, 02:56:30 AM »
I find it hard however to feel for the two kids. Yes they were killed in a horrible way but I kind of feel like "live by the sword die by the sword" applies to them. This is why you don’t break into people's houses. There is a strong chance you will get shot. And breaking and entering is not something that a curious, innocent, fun loving 18 year old kid does. 

Teenagers do dumb things - that's part of being a teenager; no-one deserves to die like they did, an certainly not for something as comparatively trivial as housebreaking. More than that though, is everyone else, the ripples of grief that the death of the young cause; parents, friends - none of them deserved the heartbreak that Byron David Smith caused.

I hear he got life without parole; hope all that self-righteousness will keep him warm...
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #653 on: May 07, 2014, 07:53:41 AM »
Apparently NJ has been talking about smart guns for a while now. This article is from last year. This does make things much more interesting..

One of the few things NJ got right.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #654 on: May 07, 2014, 08:36:26 AM »
Teenagers do dumb things - that's part of being a teenager; no-one deserves to die like they did, an certainly not for something as comparatively trivial as housebreaking. More than that though, is everyone else, the ripples of grief that the death of the young cause; parents, friends - none of them deserved the heartbreak that Byron David Smith caused.

I hear he got life without parole; hope all that self-righteousness will keep him warm...

Did you listen to the interview he gave on the Hannity link? Byron David Smith is nuts. He is one of the many people who shouldn’t be armed in the first place.
As I posted earlier I don’t know the whole story. I don’t know what steps were taken (if any) before setting a trap to kill two teenagers. I won't argue that it isn’t a tragedy that could have been averted, but this isn’t a story about a kid that was minding his own business then he was racially profiled and wound up dead.
As the story goes the kid broke into Byrons house before and stole stuff (burglary?). This time he smashed the window and crept in. I am not saying he deserved to die  for trespassing but he took his life in his own hands. I am not defending Byron for executing two unarmed teens either. I wasn’t there and know nothing about the chain of events, yet I find it hard to believe he felt threatened enough to start shooting. Byron knew who was in the house and I don’t think I believe he thought the kid was armed. But...  when a lion tamer gets eaten by a lion it’s a tragedy.  When a base jumper smashes into a cliff and dies it’s a tragedy but both know their actions are dangerous. When you break into some crazy old man's house and he shoots you it’s a tragedy. Yes teens do dumb stuff but this is a step up from dumb. This is a criminal action that took place in someone's house. And unfortunately for everyone involved he broke into the wrong house at the wrong time and paid for it with his life.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #655 on: May 07, 2014, 08:48:11 AM »
As the story goes the kid broke into Byrons house before and stole stuff (burglary?).

As I understand (and I could be wrong), that is an allegation.  Byron was robbed before.  It may or may not have been the same people.

This time he smashed the window and crept in. I am not saying he deserved to die  for trespassing but he took his life in his own hands. I am not defending Byron for executing two unarmed teens either.

You kind of are.  Look at those two sentences, one right after the other.  You keep hedging and qualifying.  "Byron was wrong, BUT...."  what follows seems to say he wasn't all that wrong.  When you make a statement and follow with "but", it often negates the statement.  People non-apologize that way all the time.  "I'm sorry I was a jerk, but blah blah blah (excuses to justify jerkish behavior, so I'm not actually sorry)."

You are entitled to have your opinion.  But I think you may not understand what it is.  Maybe you are not articulating your meaning or I just do not understand. 


 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online penfold

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
  • Darwins +63/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • ...buzz buzz buzz...
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #656 on: May 07, 2014, 09:15:51 AM »
As the story goes the kid broke into Byrons house before and stole stuff (burglary?). This time he smashed the window and crept in. I am not saying he deserved to die  for trespassing but he took his life in his own hands.

Yeah but risk assessment exactly the thing that teenagers are sh*t at. I teach 16-17yo kids; you wouldn't believe the stuff they do without considering the possible consequences...

More than that though I find the notion that a homeowner is 'entitled' to shoot at trespassers grim. I've been burgled, and, yeah, it is really horrible and scary (fortunately my wife and I were not in when it happened, but we slept with the light on for a few weeks after the event), but at the end of the day it's just stuff, no one needs to die over it.

Theft tends to be driven by poverty and desperation; we live in a world where wealth inequality is increasing. To my mind if we've got to the stage where we need to keep the poor at bay with firearms then we've failed.

I just cannot agree with you that killing could ever be a justified response to trespass and theft.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn’t go away." - P.K.D.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #657 on: May 07, 2014, 10:40:03 AM »
You kind of are.  Look at those two sentences, one right after the other.  You keep hedging and qualifying.  "Byron was wrong, BUT...."  what follows seems to say he wasn't all that wrong.  When you make a statement and follow with "but", it often negates the statement.  People non-apologize that way all the time.  "I'm sorry I was a jerk, but blah blah blah (excuses to justify jerkish behavior, so I'm not actually sorry)."
   
You are entitled to have your opinion.  But I think you may not understand what it is.  Maybe you are not articulating your meaning or I just do not understand.

Actually I think you are right. Maybe I'm a dick.. I'm cool with that.
I totally understand and respect both Penfold and your stance and feelings on the story. I won't say your wrong. I even agree that Byron shouldn’t have shot anyone. I guess I am ok with people shooting people who break into their house. Not setting a trap or executing unarmed individuals, but defending your home. Perhaps that is the underlying cause of the but.

Theft tends to be driven by poverty and desperation; we live in a world where wealth inequality is increasing. To my mind if we've got to the stage where we need to keep the poor at bay with firearms then we've failed.
Is that what this is a case of though? You could be right but I figured it to be a hooligan who got caught hooliganizing. I made the assumption this was a "suburban gangster" who has never known poverty. I am well aware though what happens when you assume.

Quote
I just cannot agree with you that killing could ever be a justified response to trespass and theft.
I see it as the last and worst option.
And the oddest part is that I am more ok with shooting people in one's home more so than on the street. I mean defending one's home or one's self inside the home. More so than defending one's self just out and about on the street. I realize ultimately you are killing someone in both situations and I can't explain why I feel it is more justified to kill a home intruder or invader. Maybe that’s because my home was broken into twice as well when I was young. They took everything and anything of value both times. Lol maybe that fucked me up or something. I dunno. 

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #658 on: May 07, 2014, 11:49:14 AM »
Yeah but risk assessment exactly the thing that teenagers are sh*t at. I teach 16-17yo kids; you wouldn't believe the stuff they do without considering the possible consequences...

As I understand, their brains still are not done developing.[1][2]  They are not actual people yet, though they do a good impression of it.  As you said, they cannot comprehend consequences.  I read a story about some teens who stole a Stop sign.  They thought it would be cool to have.  They did not think that a consequence might be that someone would not stop at the intersection and get killed in a crash with another vehicle, which happened.



Actually I think you are right. Maybe I'm a dick.. I'm cool with that.

I really hope that is not your takeaway from my post.  I neither said that nor think that.  Nor do I think you are wrong, exactly.  I am only saying at least one of us - you, me, maybe both of us - does not understand your position.  And to get clarification I have to point out the things you have written that confuse me, so you know what to address and say differently or explain more fully.

You've expanded on your answer, so I think I get where you are coming from.

 1. http://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/publications/the-teen-brain-still-under-construction/index.shtml
"The parts of the brain responsible for more "top-down" control, controlling impulses, and planning ahead—the hallmarks of adult behavior—are among the last to mature."
 2. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124119468
"It's the part of the brain that says: 'Is this a good idea? What is the consequence of this action?' " Jensen says. "It's not that they don't have a frontal lobe. And they can use it. But they're going to access it more slowly."
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #659 on: May 07, 2014, 12:04:59 PM »
Quote
really hope that is not your takeaway from my post.  I neither said that nor think that.
No I am not saying you called me a dick. Lol I am sure that if that was your intention you wouldn’t have any qualms with doing so.

I feel I am sticking up for the actions of a murderous nut job in a way. That or at least justifying people killing other people. I admit it’s a rather dickish stance.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #660 on: May 07, 2014, 12:10:32 PM »
Okay, good.

My take on your position (and please correct me if I am wrong):
- the baiting of a trap and summary execution was very wrong.
- breaking into someone's house was wrong.
- if you break into someone's house, you know you might be shot and killed. (these teens did not expect it because it was made to look like no one was home.)
- you feel people who have not laid traps should be able to shoot intruders and not face legal consequences.

Does that sum it up accurately?
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #661 on: May 07, 2014, 12:48:34 PM »
The last one is shady to me and to be honest I am not 100% sure how I feel about that. Like I said I am good with people defending their home but I am not good with just shooting unarmed people. I do not have any ideas off the top of my head to distinguish a justified home defense from an act of murder.

Also:
Quote
if you break into someone's house, you know you might be shot and killed. (these teens did not expect it because it was made to look like no one was home.)
I think the one you listed before this one covers it. You shouldn’t break into some ones house. Just because it looks like your crazy neighbor isn’t there doesn’t mean he isn’t.
Like this story from a few months ago,

http://www.elkharttruth.com/crime-fire-courts/2013/09/12/Teens-receive-sentence-on-murder-charge.html
Quote
They were accused of being responsible for the death of Danzele Johnson, 21, who died during an attempted burglary at 1919 Frances Ave. on Oct. 3, 2012.

The homeowner, Rodney Scott, was at his house when Layman, Sparks, Sharp, Johnson and Jose Quiroz broke into the house. He opened fire against the group when he heard movement on the first floor of his house, shooting and killing Johnson.

Quiroz was also charged with felony murder, and he pleaded guilty in November 2012.

He was sentenced to 45 years in prison.

During the trial the teens’ attorneys argued their clients had attempted to commit burglary, — a felony that is not considered a violent crime — in what they thought was a vacant house.

You don’t break into people's houses. It seems society feels stronger than I do that it is ok to shoot home invaders... period.

Online Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
  • Darwins +71/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #662 on: May 07, 2014, 12:52:03 PM »
Pardon the interruption, slight thread derail coming, because I just couldn't keep it to myself.

I won't say your wrong.

You just did  ;)

Please continue.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline G-Roll

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 360
  • Darwins +40/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #663 on: May 07, 2014, 12:54:46 PM »
Bah I am a shitty communicator!

Online Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
  • Darwins +71/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #664 on: May 07, 2014, 12:57:09 PM »
- you feel people who have not laid traps should be able to shoot intruders and not face legal consequences.

I dunno G-Roll's stance exactly, but here's mine:

 People who have not laid traps and shoot an intruder should not automatically face consequences, unless it can be proven beyond a doubt that the shooter knew he wasn't in imminent and immediate physical danger.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12131
  • Darwins +646/-27
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #665 on: May 07, 2014, 01:10:38 PM »
People who have not laid traps and shoot an intruder should not automatically face consequences, unless it can be proven beyond a doubt that the shooter knew he wasn't in imminent and immediate physical danger.

I go the other way, as does the law in a dwindling number of states.  I say, you should make every reasonable attempt to avoid shooting someone, up to and including getting out of the house, though I'm not talking about jumping out of a 2 storey window.  If you've shown that you attempted to avoid confrontation, and shot only as a last resort, you're good. 

In the overwhelming majority of cases, burglars are not armed.  In the majority of cases, they also know the victim.
http://www.stateoftheusa.org/content/new-approach-to-burglary.php
Quote
What researchers found was that violence was used on average in seven percent (266,560) of the 3.7 million burglaries each year. Of those 266,560 violent burglaries, offenders had a firearm just 12 percent of the time, and victims knew their attackers beforehand 65 percent of the time. 

bold mine.  That's 12% of 7% which is ... just under 1%.  So only 7% of burglaries are violent and .8% of them the burglar has a gun.  Killing someone you likely know and is almost certainly unarmed does not seem to be a justified default response to me.

more data for anyone who is interested:
https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2010/09/30/burglary-violence-and-the-armed-career-criminal-act/

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2179
  • Darwins +71/-9
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #666 on: May 07, 2014, 01:23:52 PM »
People who have not laid traps and shoot an intruder should not automatically face consequences, unless it can be proven beyond a doubt that the shooter knew he wasn't in imminent and immediate physical danger.

I say, you should make every reasonable attempt to avoid shooting someone, up to and including getting out of the house, though I'm not talking about jumping out of a 2 storey window. 

And do you think the shooter should have to prove that they made every reasonable attempt to avoid a felony conviction? I’m not sure I can get behind that. It’s too subjective, IMO.

Because, like G-Roll said, it's a given that one takes a great risk, penalty of prison or death, when breaking into homes. It should be the State's duty to prove that the homicide wasn't justifiable.

Quote
In the overwhelming majority of cases, burglars are not armed.  In the majority of cases, they also know the victim.
http://www.stateoftheusa.org/content/new-approach-to-burglary.php
Quote
What researchers found was that violence was used on average in seven percent (266,560) of the 3.7 million burglaries each year. Of those 266,560 violent burglaries, offenders had a firearm just 12 percent of the time, and victims knew their attackers beforehand 65 percent of the time. 

bold mine.  That's 12% of 7% which is ... just under 1%.  So only 7% of burglaries are violent and .8% of them the burglar has a gun.  Killing someone you likely know and is almost certainly unarmed does not seem to be a justified default response to me.

more data for anyone who is interested:
https://law.marquette.edu/facultyblog/2010/09/30/burglary-violence-and-the-armed-career-criminal-act/

Statistics are great, except when they're not. And when it involves you , you won't much care about what statistics show.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2013/01/19/another-17-year-old-another-brutal-robbery-and-killing-woman-child-husband-killed-by-armed-house-intruderrobber-in-colorado/

« Last Edit: May 07, 2014, 01:29:32 PM by Dante »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.