Gun Fails

[Jag]

More guns around mean more guns forgotten in schools, etc. And these are sometimes people trained to use guns properly....imagine the chaos as more people get guns who are not even trained in firearm safety.

We require a license to drive a car for the sake of public safety, but suggesting that gun training be required in order to own one is apparently going too far.

[nogodsforme]

More guns around mean more guns forgotten in schools, etc. And these are sometimes people trained to use guns properly....imagine the chaos as more people get guns who are not even trained in firearm safety.

We require a license to drive a car for the sake of public safety, but suggesting that gun training be required in order to own one is apparently going too far.

To be fair, you don't need a license to own a car, do you? Just to drive one.

[Jag]

Sigh. I suppose that's a legitimate argument. 

[Chronos]

To be fair, you don't need a license to own a car, do you? Just to drive one.

In Maryland, you at least need a state ID card which is just like a drivers license but without the privilege of driving.

[Chronos]

Not a gun fail, but a weapon fail, sorta ... just strange:

Florida man kills wife and son with crossbow, then slits throat

(CNN) -- A South Florida man killed his wife and son with a crossbow, drove 460 miles to try and kill his other son, and then slit his own throat.

...

"I knew them. They were good neighbors. I never heard anything from the house -- no screaming, no fighting, nothing," neighbor Ana Maldonado, who is not related to the family, told WSVN.

[screwtape]

Gunfail 46
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/04/1257984/-GunFAIL-XLVI

19 children accidentally shot last week. 
34 guns found at airports.
4 stories of guns and schools.
I particularly like this one: http://www.news-leader.com/article/20131126/NEWS01/311260039/?nclick_check=1
I really dig that pro-gun people don't seem to mind that a guy like this can get a gun. Or rather, that they cannot think of anyways to prevent him from getting them which are acceptable to them. 


off topic but, I like the question he asks in the intro:
"By the way, is "outlaw country" like "gangsta rap?" Are we supposed to be outraged by it? Or is it just good ol' All-American fun?"

[MadBunny]

That's because to them the ideal world is much like a video game, where you can randomly find guns, ammo packs and health kits just strewn about.

Probably goes a long way to explain their health care objections as well.  I mean, why bother with insurance when you can just run over a medkit and stimpak whenever you're injured.  Save them up and they'll bring you back from the edge of death to perfect health in moments.

[Graybeard]

Summary of the 173 children killed since the Newtown Massacre one year ago: interactive map

http://investigations.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/12/12/21865625-newtown-anniversary-the-us-children-shot-to-death-since-sandy-hook-massacre?lite

[screwtape]

gun fail 47
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/10/1259231/-Lowe-s-knows-I-have-a-gun-because-I-just-shot-myself-with-it-in-their-parking-lot-GunFAIL-XLVII

[Chronos]

Imagine US military members being told to leave their firearms at work when they go home over the weekend:

It’s Simple: Fewer Guns, Fewer Suicides

In Israel most 18- to 21-year-olds are drafted into the Israeli Defense Forces and provided with military training—and weapons. Suicide among young IDF members is a serious problem. In an attempt to reduce suicides, the IDF tried a new policy in 2005, prohibiting most soldiers from bringing their weapons home over the weekends. Dr. Gad Lubin, the chief mental health officer for the IDF, and his co-authors estimate that this simple change reduced the total suicide rate among young IDF members by a stunning 40 percent. It’s worth noting that even though you might think that soldiers home for the weekend could easily delay suicide by a day or two, the authors did not find an increase in suicide rates during the weekdays. These results are consistent with interviews with near-fatal suicide survivors, who often say their decision was spontaneous and who typically go on to live long lives.

[screwtape]

gun fail 48.  some of the best gun fails yet.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/18/1261009/--I-can-do-anything-I-want-on-my-property-he-screamed-and-fired-three-more-rounds-GunFAIL-XLVIII

[G-Roll]

Imagine US military members being told to leave their firearms at work when they go home over the weekend:

It’s Simple: Fewer Guns, Fewer Suicides

In Israel most 18- to 21-year-olds are drafted into the Israeli Defense Forces and provided with military training—and weapons. Suicide among young IDF members is a serious problem. In an attempt to reduce suicides, the IDF tried a new policy in 2005, prohibiting most soldiers from bringing their weapons home over the weekends. Dr. Gad Lubin, the chief mental health officer for the IDF, and his co-authors estimate that this simple change reduced the total suicide rate among young IDF members by a stunning 40 percent. It’s worth noting that even though you might think that soldiers home for the weekend could easily delay suicide by a day or two, the authors did not find an increase in suicide rates during the weekdays. These results are consistent with interviews with near-fatal suicide survivors, who often say their decision was spontaneous and who typically go on to live long lives.

What? You mean their personal firearms? Or do you think they go to their actual homes where they live with gov issued firearms? The weapons are kept in the armory. Not someone's house.
It is weird to me that the Israeli army allows soldiers to bring their weapons home up until 2005. But then again European force don’t even have to shave so...

[Chronos]

From what I have seen sidearms can go home, assault rifles don't.

[Spit]

Guns kill people. People kill people. Peepholes kill people. 

[epidemic]

Gunfail 46
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/12/04/1257984/-GunFAIL-XLVI

19 children accidentally shot last week. 
34 guns found at airports.
4 stories of guns and schools.
I particularly like this one: http://www.news-leader.com/article/20131126/NEWS01/311260039/?nclick_check=1
I really dig that pro-gun people don't seem to mind that a guy like this can get a gun. Or rather, that they cannot think of anyways to prevent him from getting them which are acceptable to them. 


off topic but, I like the question he asks in the intro:
"By the way, is "outlaw country" like "gangsta rap?" Are we supposed to be outraged by it? Or is it just good ol' All-American fun?"

74 million kids went through their daily lives with out getting shot.
60 millionish kids went to school with out finding a gun.


10 times as many kids will die today in the family pool pond or bathtub as will be shot.
5 times as many will die in house fires.

Hell 40 kids annually are run over by their own school bus annually. 

accidental gun deaths of children are sad but there are many other ways to die that are far more pressing.   Probably half of the children deaths by gun could be reduced by training children in firearm safety.

I don't want one child to die of a gunshot but with 60 times as many kids dying per day in auto accidents I think gun fall into the catagory of a minor problem that does not require the stripping of my right to self defense.  I have raised 4 kids in a house with guns and not one has shot themselves or come close.  Guns are dangerous and kids should be made aware of them and their dangers.

[Azdgari]

Ahh, the "there are bigger problems in the world so please ignore this one" plea.  Works for almost all problems in all contexts, really.

[screwtape]

I don't want one child to die of a gunshot...

You could have just stopped there.  In fact, I think you should have.  Why didn't you? 

As I have explained to you at least once already, this thread is about supposedly responsible gun owners and the damage they cause.  It is not about car safety or pool safety or home safety.  So, a productive contribution to this thread would have been one that offered some ideas on how to move closer to the goal of people not accidentally being shot.

Instead, we get this:

... but with 60 times as many kids dying per day in auto accidents I think gun fall into the catagory of a minor problem that does not require the stripping of my right to self defense. 

Minor problem.  That's great.  So, you don't want any kids to die of gun shots, but you're not willing to do anything or change anything in any way to ensure they don't.     

How many dead kids is your self defense worth?  My guess is you'll dodge that question.  I also guess that the honest answer would be "every last kid in the world except my own".  That is not because I think you are especially self centered or callous or stupid.  It is because that is human nature. We cannot actually care about that many people.

So how many dead kids would be worth it for you to give up your gun?

I have raised 4 kids in a house with guns and not one has shot themselves or come close.  Guns are dangerous and kids should be made aware of them and their dangers.

Oh, well, as long as your kids are safe...

[nogodsforme]

Even if your kids know about gun safety and would never mess around with your guns, can you say the same for all their friends? You can't prevent kids telling their friends about their dad and how he is all bada$$ with his guns. We have had several gun fails where a friend, neighbor or relative kid was the one firing the gun.

What other country-- relatively low in violent crime and not actively at war, claiming to be modern and civilized-- allows so many people to have access to so many weapons? From a world perspective, it is crazy to even be discussing an 18th century era "right to own a gun" versus people hurt and killed by guns. What made sense in scattered homesteads on the frontier with no police force and no communications system is an insane policy for most communities in the US today.[1]

The gun fails are the sad result of lots of normal people doing normal but stupid things with guns, like forgetting to unload it, forgetting that there were other people around, forgetting how powerful their gun is (can shoot through walls) and just plain forgetting it somewhere. It just seems way too easy to hurt or kill someone by accident. And that is a high cost for some people to have a psychological sense of safety and power.

I liken it to the people who think they need to drive a Hummer-- a tank-like vehicle designed for military use-- on city streets to feel safe and secure. Because they can.

1.

We don't let everyone today own horses, chickens, goats or pigs within city limits, just because people did it in the 18th century. Imagine if we had done that, but we now had genetically engineered super animals as big as buildings, that produced mountains of toxic waste and could shoot flames out of their eyes.....methinks we would be about changing those laws, don't you? We can change laws. We really can.

[pianodwarf]

What other country-- relatively low in violent crime and not actively at war, claiming to be modern and civilized-- allows so many people to have access to so many weapons?

There are several.  You can see for yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

If you sort by "gun ownership per capita", you will see that the relationship between "being civilized" and gun ownership rate is not quite so simple as you might think.  If you look at just the top ten, you can point out that Yemen, Saudia Arabia, and Iraq (not very civilized countries, in my opinion) are in there.  On the other hand, so are Switzerland, Finland, and Sweden.  For numbers 11 thru 20, the pattern continues to hold, a mixture of countries both backward and civilized.  (Iceland, France, and Canada; Kuwait, Bahrain, and Oman)

If you want to see a much more clear cut relationship regarding how civilized a country is, look up which countries still have capital punishment and how often they use it.  Ditto for corporal punishment, for that matter.

I'd go into this in more depth, but I don't have time right now.  I'm in the middle of finals -- I have a term paper to finish today, then preparation for a final on Saturday and another on Sunday.  I had forgotten what it's like to be in college.  Whuff!

[nogodsforme]

Thanks for the data. Interesting list. The US is still such an outlier with so many more guns per capita, almost twice as many as the next top ten. And I would not think that #2 Serbia is as safe from crime as the US but I may be wrong.

[pianodwarf]

Thanks for the data. Interesting list. The US is still such an outlier with so many more guns per capita, almost twice as many as the next top ten. And I would not think that #2 Serbia is as safe from crime as the US but I may be wrong.

I haven't looked into the crime rate in Serbia (too busy working on criminology in Puerto Rico for this term paper I'm supposed to be writing instead of posting here).  I'm sure there's data out there, though.

Yes, you're right, the United States per capita gun ownership rate is incredibly high.  I wonder what makes us so unusual in that regard.  It can't be simply because we have permissive gun laws -- there are other countries on that list with gun laws that are pretty permissive, and they don't have rates anywhere near as high as ours.

The one in particular on that list that always gets me, as I've mentioned before, is Iceland.  Handguns prohibited, long guns legal with a license that is pretty straightforward to get, per capita gun ownership rate about 30 guns per hundred people (on the high side, comparatively speaking), and arguably the most peaceful nation in the world.  I do wish we could figure out whatever it is that Iceland has, or is doing right, that we don't, so that we might be able to try to emulate it.

I'm going back to work on this paper now.  Really.  It's due tomorrow, so I have to finish it.  *grr*

[magicmiles]

What other country-- relatively low in violent crime and not actively at war, claiming to be modern and civilized-- allows so many people to have access to so many weapons?

There are several.  You can see for yourself here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number_of_guns_per_capita_by_country

Perhaps I'm too sceptical, but I suspect this list is hugely inaccurate. For starters, it has Colombia listed as only 6 guns per 100 people. Somehow I doubt that.

[Azdgari]

How many people in Columbia can afford a gun?

[magicmiles]

I've no idea what guns cost in Colombia, but I suspect those involved with drugs and associated crime can afford plenty. I'm not suggesting more than 6 people in 100 own guns (although they might), but I suspect those who own guns own several. Of course, this is all just opinion, I haven't done any research.

[pianodwarf]

I've no idea what guns cost in Colombia, but I suspect those involved with drugs and associated crime can afford plenty. I'm not suggesting more than 6 people in 100 own guns (although they might), but I suspect those who own guns own several. Of course, this is all just opinion, I haven't done any research.

You may find this interesting.

http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/colombia

[magicmiles]

^^ Yep, chances are I'm completely wrong. Influenced by reports of constant drug related crime etc.

Now get back to your study and stop procrastinating.

[pianodwarf]

^^ Yep, chances are I'm completely wrong. Influenced by reports of constant drug related crime etc.

Colombia is a screwed-up mess in quite a few ways.

Now get back to your study and stop procrastinating.

I'm trying, dad!

[Chronos]

A sideshow on gun fails:

Dan Savage: Good Grief and Great Tits
Sitting Down to Read Sarah Palin's Christmas Book While I Bake Christmas Cookies for My Family

This paragraph about gun shopping in December of 2012—one first grader at Sandy Hook was shot 11 times—ends with Palin bragging about her tits. I'm not kidding.

[pianodwarf]

Thanks for the data. Interesting list. The US is still such an outlier with so many more guns per capita, almost twice as many as the next top ten.

Looking into this a little more before getting ready to hit the shower and get started reviewing for my criminology final today, I found the Global Peace Index.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Peace_Index

If you sort the list by peacefulness and look at the ten most peaceful, you will find that only one of those ten countries (Japan) has highly restrictive gun laws.  The other countries' gun laws are mostly pretty permissive, with almost all of them falling in the top twenty of per capita gun ownership rate.  Iceland, in particular, which I've mentioned before, has somewhere around the 15th highest per capita gun ownership rate in the world, and it has consistently sat at number one on the GPI for the past several years.  Colombia, with its relatively low gun ownership rate, is at number 147.  Then, of course, there's the United States, which as we all know has the world's highest per capita gun ownership rate and checks in at number 100 on the GPI.  Yemen doesn't have a very proud showing, either.

All of which means that the relationship between gun ownership and violence in society is significantly more complicated than most people think.  Criminology in general is more complicated than most people think, as just one criminology course has already taught me -- my term paper, in fact, is on the insanely high homicide rate in Puerto Rico, and of all the research that I've done in various journals and newspapers and so on about how to address the problem, nobody is talking about gun laws.  They're talking about a hell of a lot of other things, though; there are various theories of homicide, and there is widespread disagreement among them.

And I need to get back to my own work on the subject.  Leaving now.  (Semester is over tomorrow night.  Looking forward to having this done with.  Bleah.)