Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 21088 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #232 on: September 16, 2013, 09:15:52 AM »
Actually the government had the most advanced weapons available.  The single shot muskets and rifles of the time were the state of the art.  The people could own weaponry equal to that of the government.
Non sequitur and thus fairly irrelevant.  Not only that, but as the Revolutionary War proved over and over again, a band of militia could not ever stand up to professionally-trained soldiers.  So saying that people had equivalent weapons to the government (which was not true, by the way, I don't think a single American owned a cannon, for example) is pretty meaningless.

Quote from: epidemic
I don't propose this but just sayin.
Good, because you would be insane to suggest that individual citizens should have the right to bear nuclear weapons, to pick one example of a weapon the government has and individual citizens don't.

Quote from: epidemic
I am not against a basic gun safety course.   It should be taught in kindergarten and every couple of years after should be more advanced courses throughtout your primary school years.   this way when a kid comes across a gun or sees one being played with at a party they could know to vacate the premises.
I don't think anyone with a sufficient number of functioning brain cells would be against gun safety classes.  The problem is the people who don't take the classes seriously, because they don't respect their weapons.

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as for the limit on the number of weapons???  what do you hope to accomplish with such a restriction.   I can carry a few weapons at one time but my 7 or 8 guns pose no more risk than my 1 or 2 guns.  They sit idle in my safe even when I go out shooting I usually don't bring but a few out.
I don't think she was talking about an individual gun owner having a half-dozen guns or so.  I think she was talking about someone stockpiling dozens or hundreds of guns.

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everyone who bashes guns really avoids the topic of my right to defend myself.   I can cite cases where limited magazines would have reduced survivability of the innocent in  encouters with would be criminals.  Large capacity magazines are rarely used in the comission of a crime.  I have read that the average number of shots fired by criminals is typically between 2 and 5 shots.   Of course notable exeptions would be the movie theater shooting and elementary shooting.
The right to defend yourself is not absolute.  It is in no way self-defense to shoot a fleeing man in the back, for example.

By all means, go ahead and cite those cases where limited magazines would have reduced survivability against criminals.  I find it more than a little doubtful, personally, since there aren't that many cases nowadays where individual citizens get into extended firefights with criminals.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #233 on: September 16, 2013, 03:07:15 PM »
As I said before, a lot of people get their ideas about guns, crime, violence and what it means to "defend themselves" from movies. The good guy is a great shot, never hesitates, always knows exactly where and how many bad guys there are, and of course, the music changes when the bad guys show up so everyone knows exactly who they are. Movie death is clean-- no brains and guts splatter on the good guy. And the good guy is totally cool about shooting people. He never freaks out, passes out or vomits.  He never makes a mistake and shoots the wrong person. And if the good guy does get shot, it is in the shoulder or arm, never the brain or spine so he is disabled for the rest of his life.

In real life, none of that is the case. You are coming home from work after dark and a man approaches you and demands your wallet. Where is your gun? If it is not loaded and in your hand already, you have zero chance of "defending yourself" with it. If you reach for your wallet and come out with a gun instead, you have just increased your chance of getting killed as well as robbed, because you don't know if he has a friend hidden nearby waiting.

You are leaving the ATM with your cash and a group of thugs surrounds you and demands your money. Same question: where is your gun? If you can get it out, how many of them can you shoot before they take your weapon away and kill or disable you with it? You would have to shoot first--before the people get close to you, and ask questions--like, were they really going to demand money, later.

As a woman, maybe I should carry a gun to protect myself from rapists. I would need to have my gun in my hand, ready to fire at a moment's notice, because by the time a man has grabbed me, it's too late. Any man who makes me nervous is fair game. Right?

As for the possibility of "taking out" a crazy gunman in a public place, like a movie theater, school, mall, or Naval base (!) again the reality is very different from the movies. Nobody really knows what is going on. People are running around and screaming. Broken glass is flying around, maybe there are wounded people bleeding in front of you. There is a lot of noise and a lot of smoke, maybe it is dark so you can't see clearly or hear exactly where the shots are coming from.

In all the confusion, you see a guy running by with a gun in his hand. Do you shoot at him? Maybe it's the shooter, or it could be an undercover cop or plainclothes security person, or even another private citizen trying to be a hero just like you. Bullets ricochet and go everywhere. Chances are good that more shooters will create even more chaos and death.

My grandfather, a mean, tough old bird, kept a loaded shotgun behind the front door of his home. I am not advocating this, because he was crazy paranoid, but I want to point out that he had only one gun. He never to my knowledge used it for anything other than hunting, and he did not feel the need to have lots of weapons to feel safe. I have another relative who is an NRA member. He collects guns. I don't know how many he has, but he never feels safe enough.

How does having more guns (say, more than 10 handguns and rifles) increase a person's ability to defend themselves against crime? Are you going to walk around 24-7 with all those guns? Are you going to have them loaded and hidden in various easily reached locations throughout your home? Does this seem like a safe thing to do?

The way for us to be safer is to make our society safer. There are many countries where people don't own guns and crime rates are very low.  What they do have: well trained and well paid police, health care for everyone, expanded social services-- especially for the military, drug counseling,  mental health care, good schools, jail for violent criminals and alternative programs for non-violent crime. 

In the US we seem to have decided to let everyone arm to the teeth and hope for the best. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nick

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #234 on: September 16, 2013, 03:23:51 PM »
Another shooting today at a US Navy Yard in DC.  The NRA is silent, as they always are for a few days, then they will come out and say "we need to arm teachers and this would not have happened at the navy yard".
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #235 on: September 16, 2013, 03:26:24 PM »
Another shooting today at a US Navy Yard in DC.  The NRA is silent, as they always are for a few days, then they will come out and say "we need to arm teachers and this would not have happened at the navy yard".

Yep. More guns is always the answer. :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #236 on: September 16, 2013, 03:47:47 PM »
Another shooting today at a US Navy Yard in DC.  The NRA is silent, as they always are for a few days, then they will come out and say ...

"...quit trying to politicize this issue!  That's not fair!" 

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #237 on: September 16, 2013, 08:04:13 PM »
Another shooting today at a US Navy Yard in DC.  The NRA is silent, as they always are for a few days, then they will come out and say "we need to arm teachers and this would not have happened at the navy yard".

The custodians and clerks at the Navy Yard should be armed with weapons because, well, you never know ...


Oh, wait a minute. Aren't there people at the Navy Yard that are armed? Hmmmm.

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Offline Nick

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #238 on: September 16, 2013, 09:25:20 PM »
Yes, they are armed.  Two cops were shot.  Guards have guns.  But the right wing press is saying it was a gun free zone.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #239 on: September 17, 2013, 05:38:12 AM »
Maybe there should be stations every 200 feet that contain automatic weapons with a sign that says "break glass in case of emergency".

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #240 on: September 17, 2013, 07:52:02 AM »
In real life, none of that is the case. You are coming home from work after dark and a man approaches you and demands your wallet. Where is your gun? If it is not loaded and in your hand already, you have zero chance of "defending yourself" with it. If you reach for your wallet and come out with a gun instead, you have just increased your chance of getting killed as well as robbed, because you don't know if he has a friend hidden nearby waiting.

Like or dislike the outcome of zimmerman case.  It does prove your statement as false.  However Zimmerman and Martin ended up on the ground.  It does prove your zero chance argument is false.  Zimmerman was able to take a life threatening situation and turn it around from the ground.

Lets say you comply with the robber and they begin to beat you, you have zero chance to defend yourself at this point.  A gun is not a perfect tool to defend yourself but it is better than nothing and better than most alternatives.

Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #241 on: September 17, 2013, 07:54:49 AM »
^nonsense reply.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #242 on: September 17, 2013, 07:57:29 AM »
Maybe there should be stations every 200 feet that contain automatic weapons with a sign that says "break glass in case of emergency".

cool idea, but I think it may be a little short sighted. 

considering that most people are generally good.  that would quickly result in overwhelming odds against any would be assailant.

But conversely it would create a situation that made it difficult to identify the bad guy. 

I think the guns should be in every room.  This would give the people bunkered down in rooms the ability to defend themselves but I would suggest that no one leave the rooms with them.  this way all people in the room knows the person with the gun is in  a defensive role.  :)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #243 on: September 17, 2013, 08:00:24 AM »
^nonsense reply.

-Nam

Factual reply dispelling a false claim.

Offline Nick

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #244 on: September 17, 2013, 08:06:21 AM »
Maybe there should be stations every 200 feet that contain automatic weapons with a sign that says "break glass in case of emergency".

cool idea, but I think it may be a little short sighted. 

considering that most people are generally good.  that would quickly result in overwhelming odds against any would be assailant.

But conversely it would create a situation that made it difficult to identify the bad guy. 

I think the guns should be in every room.  This would give the people bunkered down in rooms the ability to defend themselves but I would suggest that no one leave the rooms with them.  this way all people in the room knows the person with the gun is in  a defensive role.  :)
Yeah, more guns for the swat team to try to figure out.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Nick

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #245 on: September 17, 2013, 08:07:43 AM »
It was reported this morning that the guy had some mental issues and heard voices in his head.  So we know he had a direct line to God like Pat Robertson and others.  I'm just glad his right to have a gun was protected.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #246 on: September 17, 2013, 08:31:14 AM »
Like or dislike the outcome of zimmerman case.  It does prove your statement as false.  However Zimmerman and Martin ended up on the ground.  It does prove your zero chance argument is false.  Zimmerman was able to take a life threatening situation and turn it around from the ground.

Lets say you comply with the robber and they begin to beat you, you have zero chance to defend yourself at this point.  A gun is not a perfect tool to defend yourself but it is better than nothing and better than most alternatives.
Didn't you just say that Zimmerman was able to turn the situation around from the ground?  He was knocked down and hit several times while on the ground; you could say that Martin had begun to beat him.  You might want to avoid contradicting yourself so obviously, it does nothing for your argument and makes your bias even more clear.

While it's true that NGFM exaggerated her statement a bit, if you had bothered to actually read her post rather than nitpicking that exaggeration, you might have realized that she was overall correct.  Instead, you fixated on her "false claim" and then managed to contradict yourself in your very next paragraph.  I think you're simply irrational about the use of firearms at this point - you were totally unable to recognize that Chronos was being facetious and acted as if he was making a serious suggestion, then made an even more ridiculous suggestion.

Having guns in every room?  Are you insane?  That would make it easier for someone with a grudge, or who lost their antidepressant meds, or who just got in a huge argument, or other people who probably shouldn't have easy access to guns to use them to do something they shouldn't.  I mean, these guns would have to be easily accessible - there would be no point in having them in each room if they were locked up securely, ammunition stored separately - and that means the person would have no difficulties getting their hands on a gun.  It would make violent crime more likely, not less.

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #247 on: September 17, 2013, 08:59:53 AM »
Sorry, fellow folks in America. Guns will be a problem for as long as we pretend we are free because we, as a country, have no viable mechanism, political or otherwise, to solve the problem.

Guns are one of the ways more people than necessary die. They are particularly odious to some of us (me included) and worshipped by others. This is not an easy chasm to bridge. Especially when most gun supporters aren't the least bit interested in any sort of compromise.

So like other pollutions that we as a society shrug our shoulders at, cafeteria's littered with dead bodies shall continue littering our country. And worse yet, minds that can justify such deaths as an acceptable byproduct of freedom will also continue to litter the country.

Someone needs to invent a solar powered filter that you can pour people into and have them come out both intelligent and compassionate on the other end. Until we can sustain a society capable of caring for more than the self, we are dead meat. Too often literally.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #248 on: September 17, 2013, 09:51:35 AM »
ParkingPlaces is right.  As long as we value that pesky thing called "freedom", there will be gun deaths in the USA.

Let's put this in perspective, though.  Somewhat in excess of 30,000 people die every year due to motor vehicle accidents, roughly the same number as who die from firearms; two-thirds of firearm deaths are suicides.  So as long as we allow people the freedom to own and drive cars, a lot of people will die.  And most of them will not be the person actually driving the car responsible for the accident, unlike firearm deaths.

And to put it even more in perspective, there are over 440,000 tobacco-related deaths per year in the USA.  Of those, nearly 50,000 are from secondhand smoke exposure - meaning people who don't smoke cigarettes.  The rest are invariably the person actually smoking the cigarettes.

I'm certainly not trying to cheapen the deaths of those people.  Nor am I trying to suggest that dealing with firearm violence isn't important.  But from a rational perspective, the benefits of allowing people the freedoms to do things that are dangerous, like owning guns, driving cars, and smoking, outweigh the detriments of those freedoms.  Yes, sometimes those detriments involve innocent people being hurt or dying.  And that's wrong.  But...I think the detriments of not having those freedoms are worse.  Which doesn't make it any easier to deal with someone arguing that shooting a thief in the back is okay if he's running away with a cheap stereo or TV.

Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #249 on: September 17, 2013, 10:26:24 AM »
Don't forget 3rd and 4th hand smoking. Hell, cigarettes kill before even being lit.

Please...[1]

-Nam
 1. I'm not saying that smoking, or even being near the smoke from the cigarettes or cigars or pipes doesn't cause harm, perhaps even death but the average smoker lives for 75-80 years, the average non-smoker in the US lives about the same amount time.

I also notice how many advocates against smoking blame any and all cancer related illnesses to cigarettes whether they are, or not related. Some of the research should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #250 on: September 17, 2013, 10:28:30 AM »
ParkingPlaces is right.  As long as we value that pesky thing called "freedom", there will be gun deaths in the USA.

?  You kind of make it sound like a zero sum game here.  On the one hand we have FREEDOM!  On the other, gun safety.  I don't know if that is you intent, but that is what it sounds like. 

I think there is a middle ground.  We do not have any other freedom that is absolute.  There are limits to what you can say and print.  Your freedom from seach and seizure is limited.  But that does not mean we are not free.  Same with guns.

Let's put this in perspective, though. 

Okay, let's put that in perspective. We do not have absolute, unregulated freedom to drive.  Every car is registered.  Every driver is licensed. There are rules as to where cars can go.  There are strict safety standards to which cars must be built.  We do not let people under a certain age (varying from state to state) drive.  And over the years we have made driving safer. 

But from a rational perspective, the benefits of allowing people the freedoms to do things that are dangerous, like owning guns, driving cars, and smoking, outweigh the detriments of those freedoms.

?  I can see comparing smoking and guns.  But I don't see where driving fits in.  Driving has a productive goal - transportation.  Smoking, not so much.  The goal is to get high, initially, and then to feed an addiction, later.  The sole point of guns is to hurt or kill something or someone. If the only guns we are talking about are for hunting, then I see the point.  But that's not remotely what we are talking about.

But...I think the detriments of not having those freedoms are worse. 

I don't find this a convincing argument.  What are the detriments of not having the freedom to smoke cigarettes?  What are the benefits?  How about for guns?  Cars?

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #251 on: September 17, 2013, 10:29:28 AM »
Like or dislike the outcome of zimmerman case.  It does prove your statement as false.  However Zimmerman and Martin ended up on the ground.  It does prove your zero chance argument is false.  Zimmerman was able to take a life threatening situation and turn it around from the ground.

Lets say you comply with the robber and they begin to beat you, you have zero chance to defend yourself at this point.  A gun is not a perfect tool to defend yourself but it is better than nothing and better than most alternatives.
Didn't you just say that Zimmerman was able to turn the situation around from the ground?  He was knocked down and hit several times while on the ground; you could say that Martin had begun to beat him.  You might want to avoid contradicting yourself so obviously, it does nothing for your argument and makes your bias even more clear.


there is absolutely not contradiction there?  Please explain. 

The gun did not keep him from getting beaten, it kept him from getting beaten worse and or killed.  For Zimmerman that was a better outcome than the alternative.  As such the gun helped. 

Of course one could contend that his having the gun gave him the courage to get out of the car and go into the night after someone he thought was a threat.  But I don't know if that is true.  I have done both myself, gone out into the darkness to see if the person who robbed my sister had returned with a gun and I have gone out with out a gun as well.


If I were on the neighborhood watch zimmerman was I would have followed the person I thought was a criminal 50% of the time depending on how I evaluated the situation.  As such I might well have been assaulted by Treyvon for the crime of making sure my fellow tennants were safe.




PS I don't really recommend having a gun in a glass case in every room.  I was being silly based upon the comment above mine.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 10:31:45 AM by epidemic »

Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #252 on: September 17, 2013, 10:37:29 AM »
ParkingPlaces is right.  As long as we value that pesky thing called "freedom", there will be gun deaths in the USA.

?  You kind of make it sound like a zero sum game here.  On the one hand we have FREEDOM!  On the other, gun safety.  I don't know if that is you intent, but that is what it sounds like. 

I think there is a middle ground.  We do not have any other freedom that is absolute.  There are limits to what you can say and print.  Your freedom from seach and seizure is limited.  But that does not mean we are not free.  Same with guns.

We already have a middle ground on this subject.  Guns are not given out to children at school  grab bags.  There are laws regarding their use, ownership, and background checks.  There are laws that state you may not be a fellon, psycho... and own a gun.  How you carry them and how you use them, rate of fire, and size of bullet are all already regulated. 

I am not sure how you restrict them further with our infringing my right to own them and defend myself.  Do I have to go through an annual mental health exam at my own cost to keep them?  Do I need to explain why I need more than six shots while plinking on my shooting range?

Offline Dante

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #253 on: September 17, 2013, 10:53:30 AM »
I've used your quotes here, PP, but the post isn't a direct response to you, per se.

Someone needs to invent a solar powered filter that you can pour people into and have them come out both intelligent and compassionate on the other end. Until we can sustain a society capable of caring for more than the self, we are dead meat. Too often literally.

Yeah, if only everyone were both compassionate and intelligent. But they're not.

Oftentimes, I can rationalize my way to hoping there was a mechanism that could erase all guns from the world, all at once. Nobody would have any guns at all. No drive by shootings, no mass shootings, no shootings of any kind. But, since I don't believe in gods, I don’t think that it's possible. Further, I don't know if it would be beneficial to some individuals. And, like it or not, individualism is a key factor in this arena of debate.

While I understand some people don't feel threatened or insecure in their physical well being, the odds of an individual being the victim of a violent crime in the U.S. seems to be overwhelmingly higher than the odds of being struck by lightning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States 386/100,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_strike  1/500,000

Yeah, I know it's just wiki, so I'm prepared to retract the statement if anyone finds research counter to these claims.

Most individuals feel the need to try and protect themselves from being electrocuted during a lightning storm.

You see, some individuals prefer to try and protect themselves from violent crime too. They want an advantage, an equalizer. Yeah, perhaps the stats don't bear out that a gun is a great equalizer, or that everyone in every case is able to protect themselves with one when the time arises. But, it's a difference in mentality, for whatever reason.

http://lifesciencephdadventures.wordpress.com/2013/08/29/harvard-gun-study-less-guns-results-in-more-violence/

Is this better?

For society as a whole? Maybe. But for the individual? No individual wants to be on the receiving end of the violent crimes. No one.

Many of you are fond of proclaiming "paranoia" against gun rights supporters, but I don't think that's blanketly correct. It's not paranoia. Rather, it's planning ahead for one's personal safety, much like wearing a seat belt in a car, or going indoors during a lightning storm. It's taking proactive measures to not be a victim. Many people don't understand this mentality.

But many people don't understand yours either.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #254 on: September 17, 2013, 10:56:02 AM »
We already have a middle ground on this subject. 

We don't.  Not in any serious way.

Guns are not given out to children at school  grab bags.

Sorry.  This is a really stupid thing to say.  For one, it does not really address my point.  For two, it completely ignores the obvious.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/kentucky-shooting_n_3189828.html
Quote
Authorities in southern Kentucky say a 2-year-old girl has been accidentally shot and killed by her 5-year-old brother, who was playing with a .22-caliber rifle he received as a gift

FREEDOM!

There are laws regarding their use, ownership, and background checks.  There are laws that state you may not be a fellon, psycho... and own a gun.  How you carry them and how you use them, rate of fire, and size of bullet are all already regulated. 

As I have demonstrated already, they are inadequate.  It is like back when they first started to mandate putting seatbelts in cars, but before they required airbags, crash testing, mandatory seatbelt usage, etc.  Do those infringe on your right to transport yourself from one place to another?

I am not sure how you restrict them further with our infringing my right to own them and defend myself.

But you are not actually trying to figure that out, are you?  Because you do not care about the cost of guns to the rest of us.  You don't actually care how many 5 year old boys kill their 2 year old sisters.  You don't actually care whether mentally ill people get their hands on assault rifles.  Like Odin, you don't actually about how gang warfare affects everyone else.  You only care how it impacts you.


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Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #255 on: September 17, 2013, 12:57:52 PM »
We already have a middle ground on this subject. 

We don't.  Not in any serious way.

That is a matter of opinion.



Guns are not given out to children at school  grab bags.

Sorry.  This is a really stupid thing to say.  For one, it does not really address my point.  For two, it completely ignores the obvious.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/30/kentucky-shooting_n_3189828.html
Quote
Authorities in southern Kentucky say a 2-year-old girl has been accidentally shot and killed by her 5-year-old brother, who was playing with a .22-caliber rifle he received as a gift

FREEDOM!
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Four-Year-Old-Rolls-Over-And-Kills-16-Month-Old-Sibling-221013361.html



There are laws regarding their use, ownership, and background checks.  There are laws that state you may not be a fellon, psycho... and own a gun.  How you carry them and how you use them, rate of fire, and size of bullet are all already regulated. 

As I have demonstrated already, they are inadequate.  It is like back when they first started to mandate putting seatbelts in cars, but before they required airbags, crash testing, mandatory seatbelt usage, etc.  Do those infringe on your right to transport yourself from one place to another?

Actually I love seatbelts, (airbags?), crash testing.   The only one I think the government should be able to mandate is crash testing.  I am all for government demanding I be informed of unseen risks.  But I do not like when they demand I not take said risks.  If I can drive a motorcycle, then I most certainly should be able to drive a car from india that does not have airbags.



I am not sure how you restrict them further with our infringing my right to own them and defend myself.

But you are not actually trying to figure that out, are you?  Because you do not care about the cost of guns to the rest of us.  You don't actually care how many 5 year old boys kill their 2 year old sisters.  You don't actually care whether mentally ill people get their hands on assault rifles.  Like Odin, you don't actually about how gang warfare affects everyone else.  You only care how it impacts you.

I don't believe in laws that protect people from stupidity.  I did not give my son a gun when he was 4 that he could shoot his sister with.  I taught him about age 3 about guns and the dangers they pose in the hands of a child.  they are not accessible to him yet. 

But there is also not a law that says I can not have a car because some irresponsible parent will let their kid have access to the keys to run his sister over  either.

America has a murder rate that is higher than most of Europe even with out the advent of the gun.  If you could magically eliminate guns tomorrow do you think that all those people killed with guns would be alive?  or do you believe that many would still be killed by other means?

Suicide rates in many European countries exceed that of the USA even with less access to guns.   I am lucky to not need a gun for self defense, I am lucky to not live in an area with roving bands of youths who would beat you to death to join a gang.   But being a human being with empathy I would not strip someone of the right to defend against same.

800,000 to 2,500,000 times per year people use guns defensively to protect life and limb most often the mere sight of the weapon defuses the situation.  Some of those .8 to 2.5 million people would be dead today had they not had a gun.  You would have them surrender their lives for the potential of some small greater good.  I on the other hands would not.

I keep my guns for entertainment (and I am thankfull that is all I want them for).  I have carried my gun one time for defense when purchasing a car.  Turned out I did not need it.  Instead of skipping the purchase of the car that was too good to be true I was able to go out there with out incident and purchase an 8,000 dollar car for 2,300.  I thought this was a craigslist deal that was designed to liberate me of the 2,500 dollars I was carrying but in this case I did not need it.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #256 on: September 17, 2013, 01:25:05 PM »
Okay, I amend my statement about a gun giving you zero chance of defending yourself. You have more of a chance than that, as long as you are willing to kill or maim someone and live with the aftermath. Not everyone is ready to face that.

I don't think that TM was trying to rape or rob Zim. (or vice versa).  They had an altercation, ended up fighting, and Zim. shot TM. That is all we know for sure. If Zim. had been arrested and charged with manslaughter and served a few years in jail, there would have been no problem, IMHO. The problem comes when the law allows me to get into it with someone who is not armed, shoot them dead, tell a convoluted story, and walk away free.

It might be useful to carry a gun. If you are attacked, and if you can get to your gun, and if you are able to get off a shot and hit the bad guy, and if the assailant does not have a gun and get to theirs first. And if the attacker does not get the gun away from you and use it on you. And if the attacker does not have a friend hiding nearby. And so on. Many variables that nobody can know in advance.  Real life is not like a movie. There is no script.

I have lived in rough areas full of gangs[1], and have experienced crime. In the 90's I lived next to a crack house in Oakland. What bothered me far more than the open-air drug dealing itself was the fact that the dealers frequently shot up the neighborhood with their guns. Sometimes the bullets went through the walls of neighboring apartments. Once my husband and I ran down the street as bullets flew over our heads. Twice people were shot literally on our doorstep. Would getting more guns into the hands of people in the neighborhood have improved things? Or would the criminals have had more incentive to break into houses and look for the guns?

If there was a way for guns to be secured to keep them away from little kids, angry spouses, disgruntled workers,  drunken people, religious fanatics, racist separatists, depressed teenagers and random crazies [ie all of my relatives], I would have far less of a problem with them. If I thought being armed would protect folks from violence, I would advocate that people be armed.  I am not an "anti-gun activist". I am a "common sense about deadly weapons" activist.

But we keep avoiding the obvious--the US is an anomaly in terms of gun violence.  Fear of the statistically rare attack by armed, dangerous criminals (and/or the idea that guns will somehow protect us from a dictatorship) is making us go effing nuts. People who live in other crowded ethnically diverse urban areas similar to cities in the US--much of Europe, Japan, Australia, Canada-- don't feel the need to carry guns to be safe. They live in democracies where they could vote to allow freer access to weapons if they wanted to.

But for some reason they don't do that. They deal with violent crime in other ways besides giving every citizen "the right to bear arms". And they have lower violent crime rates than we do in the US. They also have far, far fewer deaths and injuries (accidental and intentional) caused by guns. For some strange reason, they think it is more important to give everyone health care than to give everyone guns.

Go figure.


 1. ironically, what protected my older brother from being jumped into gangs back in the '60s was being a JW--nobody wanted them :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #257 on: September 17, 2013, 01:40:33 PM »
again,  guns are not the problem society is the problem. Knives, fists, clubs, poisons kill more people than in  Europe.  This is not a gun problem it is a society problem. 

As for the statistical nature of my likelihood of being involved in a life threating violent confrontation,  that really depends on who I am and where I live.

The person in 1995 spanish Harlem coming home with their social security check or 20 dollars in their wallet and groceries is far more likely than me to be killed for their stuff than me.  That is why I don't feel the need to carry a weapon.  But again I defer to that person as the the risks they are willing to endure. 

« Last Edit: September 17, 2013, 01:50:03 PM by epidemic »

Offline Nick

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #258 on: September 17, 2013, 02:50:46 PM »
Yes, we must protect FREEDOM.  We don't want to end up like England, Denmark, Finland, or any other country like that. 
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #259 on: September 17, 2013, 04:09:27 PM »
If there are aspects of having guns available in a society that are undesirable, all involved should be working together to reduce, or better yet, eliminate, said problems. That takes cooperation. A bunch of those involved don't want to cooperate.

Gun advocates appear most concerned with their freedom to bear arms. The rest of the stuff, like unnecessary deaths, on a daily basis, not so much.

So I have a suggestion. The second amendment says this:
Quote
A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

Hence I think that every time we decide to go to war, we should just draft all NRA members and other gun owners and send them off to fight, instead of the kids we usually send. If they wanna be the frickin' militia, let 'em.


Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #260 on: September 17, 2013, 04:15:50 PM »
That is a matter of opinion.

And?  You stated your opinion, I stated mine. 


http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Four-Year-Old-Rolls-Over-And-Kills-16-Month-Old-Sibling-221013361.html

You miss the point.  I even quoted it.  You said they don't hand out guns to school children.  I pointed out they did in fact give a gun to a 5 year old.  It was his gun.  No sane person would give a car to a preschooler, but some dumb, cornpone asshat gave a gun to one.  And a 2 year old girl died as a result.  So, as so often happens, an innocent person had to die for the rights of a "responsible" gun owner.

The only one I think... I am all for... I do not like... I most certainly should...

1. you keep voicing your opinions, as if it is self evident that your opinions are how the rest of us should operate.  I find that...tiresome.  I have put effort into making the case that my opinions are better opinions because they would lead to a maximally happy and safe country.  You are only making a case that you have lots and lots of opinions and they happened to be kinda selfish and egotistical.  Opinions are like assholes.  Everyone has one, and they all stink.  So, do better.

2. You seem to be advocating for some kind of anarcho-libertarian feverdream, where there are no rules and no society and if someone happens to be hurt or injured, well, fuck him, that's his own fault.  Well, that's great.  But unfortunately for you, senator AquaBuddha and the Tea Party nightmare have not yet overthrown our government.  So if you want that kind of freedom, I recommend Somalia as your new residence.  Or possibly Afghanistan.  That is what a country looks like when a whole society takes on your governmental philosophy.

I don't believe in laws that protect people from stupidity.

There you go again with your opinions. 

Try this out: If the problem were only idiotic gun owners hurting themselves, I would call it natural selection.  But that is not the case.  As often as not, someone else pays for their stupidity.  So this is not about laws to protect you from your own stupidity.  It is about laws to protect me and the rest of us from your stupidity.  Why should I - or my wife, or my kid, or my friends - have to pay because some gun owner is an irresponsible asshole?

Look at the title of this thread.  The whole point of it is to show the stupid accidents supposedly responsible gun owners make.  Look at all the people who have to pay for it. 

But there is also not a law that says I can not have a car because some irresponsible parent will let their kid have access to the keys to run his sister over  either.

Because death from a car by a kid is a lot harder to come by than death from gun by a kid.  Do a search on kids who accidentally killed someone with a gun this year.  Search the links in this thread.  Then do a search onkids who accidentally killed someone with a car.   

America has a murder rate that is higher than most of Europe even with out the advent of the gun.

?  I do not know what you are trying to say, but I do not think that means what you think it means.

  If you could magically eliminate guns tomorrow do you think that all those people killed with guns would be alive?  or do you believe that many would still be killed by other means?

I believe the overwhelming majority of them would still be alive.  The statistics bear this out.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/13/gun-violence-study_n_3924063.html
fresh off the press.

Suicide rates in many European countries exceed that of the USA even with less access to guns.

this is an unsupported claim.  links or gtfo. 

But being a human being with empathy

Whom are you talking about?  Not yourself, I hope.

800,000 to 2,500,000 times per year people use guns defensively

this is an unsupported claim.  links or gtfo.  You make a lot of bold claims, without any reason to do so. 

Some of those .8 to 2.5 million people would be dead today had they not had a gun.  You would have them surrender their lives for the potential of some small greater good.

this^ is a mess. 


Turned out I did not need it.  Instead of skipping the purchase of the car that was too good to be true I was able to go out there with out incident and purchase an 8,000 dollar car for 2,300.  I thought this was a craigslist deal that was designed to liberate me of the 2,500 dollars I was carrying but in this case I did not need it.

You are an idiot.  You walked into a situation you thought was potentially life threatening over a couple thousand dollars.  And you thought you'd be safe by carrying.  Stone. Cold. Stupid.   
http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-truth-about-violence
Quote
Principle #1: Avoid dangerous people and dangerous places.

Everyone involved in that deal was lucky no one was hurt.  I've sold cars over the internet before and met perspective buyers.  I've felt completely safe and never once felt I wanted a gun.  Do you know where we meet?  Across the street from the police station.   If any of them had showed up with a gun, I would have assumed they were there to steal my car.   

You probably should not own a gun.   

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