Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 29946 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6879
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #29 on: May 30, 2013, 02:49:33 PM »
Theocratic States of America, or something like that.

united corporations of jesus?

Canada, here I come, eh.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #30 on: June 01, 2013, 08:52:47 AM »
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #31 on: June 01, 2013, 05:57:42 PM »
I don't know why in the hell anyone feels the need to possess a firearm at Disneyworld. Are Mickey and Goofy that threatening? Anyone who has taken a trip to Disneyworld knows how hot and humid it can be (even in early April, but try August for shits and giggles -- I've done both) and how much crap you have to bring with you (especially when you have kids). We always got a locker near the entrance. You wear only what you really need while going through the park. Some numbskull thinks he has to take a weapon along?  Really??   ????

And, on top of that he needs hollow-point bullets?  Really? Hollow-point? Did he expect to battle 8yo visitors with powerful weaponry?

The stupidity is astonishing, but once you consider that many of these people think that a sky daddy follows them and guides their lives, it's not such a stretch to see how they think that Osama bin Laden, Inc is going to show up and take down the Magic Kingdom by holding Snow White hostage in the tower and crashing the tram into it as an act of terrorism.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #32 on: June 01, 2013, 06:43:56 PM »
I don't know why in the hell anyone feels the need to possess a firearm at Disneyworld.

He may have forgotten he was carrying it -- that's easier to do than you might think.  Not saying that excuses it or anything, only that it's a possible explanation.

Quote
And, on top of that he needs hollow-point bullets?  Really? Hollow-point? Did he expect to battle 8yo visitors with powerful weaponry?

The hollowpoint design is specifically intended for combat, and just about anyone who carries a handgun for self-defense uses hollowpoints.  For various reasons, most other load types, such as full-metal jackets and lead semi-wadcutters, are not a good choice for a self-defense load for handguns.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2013, 09:18:51 AM »
I don't know why in the hell anyone feels the need to possess a firearm at Disneyworld. Are Mickey and Goofy that threatening?


Quote from: Rude Pundit
And he claimed that he had just accidentally left the gun in his back pocket and didn't realize it until he was on the tram from the parking lot, the inconvenience trumping common sense.

He forgot it was there, but realized it on the way.  And rather than go back and leave it in his hotel, or where ever, he just brought it along. 

The whole point here being all the talk about "responsible gun owners" is a little hard to take.  Sure, sure, there are responsible gun owners.  But they are akin to "moderate xians", providing support and cover for the extremists of their genre. 

Jackasses like Angelo Lista are irresponsible and make life more unsafe for the rest of us.  Yet, there is no penalty for them when they screw up.  Did he have a permit to have the gun?  Yes, but so what?  He took it into a theme park for children and then lost it.  And the only consequence was he was asked to leave. 

I liked the comments he linked where the gun nuts' paranoia was on display:
Quote
"My typical response is that while it may be safe in that location, getting to/from the parking lot (not to mention inside the parking lot itself) is not going to be as safe."

fucking crazy
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #34 on: June 02, 2013, 08:09:28 PM »
Jackasses like Angelo Lista are irresponsible and make life more unsafe for the rest of us.  Yet, there is no penalty for them when they screw up.  Did he have a permit to have the gun?  Yes, but so what?  He took it into a theme park for children and then lost it.  And the only consequence was he was asked to leave.

Good point, actually. Even though he has a permit to drive a car, if he drove a car onto a football field, for example, he would be cited for violating road rules ("leaving roadway", "operating vehicle in non-permissible area", etc). However, there are no particular "road rules" when someone has a conceal carry permit. We just have to trust that these individuals will be responsible; if they are not, there are no particular "tickets" for violations. These individuals might have their conceal carry permits revoked, but in today's climate of the rights offered by the Second Amendment, this will not happen unless someone is killed and maybe not even then.

We have more rules, regulations, licensing and testing for operating a motor vehicle than we do for possessing a firearm.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2013, 05:58:13 AM »
However, there are no particular "road rules" when someone has a conceal carry permit. We just have to trust that these individuals will be responsible; if they are not, there are no particular "tickets" for violations. These individuals might have their conceal carry permits revoked, but in today's climate of the rights offered by the Second Amendment, this will not happen unless someone is killed and maybe not even then.

This is not true.  Rules vary from state to state, but there are a variety of circumstances that can cause one to lose one's license.  In Florida, for instance, the state we're discussing here, a licensee is required to keep his handgun concealed at all times, and revealing it -- even by doing something as innocuous as allowing your jacket to sweep too far back when you're reaching into your pocket for your keys -- is punishable by prosecution and loss of license. Most other states have similar rules about concealment.

Quote
We have more rules, regulations, licensing and testing for operating a motor vehicle than we do for possessing a firearm.

In most jurisdictions, yes, but not all of them.  New York City comes to mind, for example.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2013, 07:58:38 AM »
gunfail 20
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/06/01/1211536/-GunFAIL-XX

It was a slow week.  Only 45 incidents.  2 guns found at Charlotte airport.  A lot of minors were involved.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2013, 06:25:45 PM »
This is not true.  Rules vary from state to state, but there are a variety of circumstances that can cause one to lose one's license.  In Florida, for instance, the state we're discussing here, a licensee is required to keep his handgun concealed at all times, and revealing it -- even by doing something as innocuous as allowing your jacket to sweep too far back when you're reaching into your pocket for your keys -- is punishable by prosecution and loss of license. Most other states have similar rules about concealment.

I do understand that a variety of factors can cause one to lose a license to carry a weapon aside from the obvious commission of a felony or issuing a protective order against the holder; in some jurisdictions you have to periodically justify why you possess such a license. However, my point is that there are not any citations issued short of losing a license -- if there are, I am unaware of them. With driving regulations each state has a system in which drivers who accumulate a certain number of violations will either lose their license or be required to attend a remedial driving instruction program. It seems that there are two possible states for a carry permit: issued or revoked.

Now, even in that circumstance I can see some wisdom given that if someone has violated a law or regulation the carry permit is revoked instead of simply receiving a citation. The problem is that am not aware of cases in which someone has had their permit revoked due to revealing their firearm in a small, casual way as you describe. I searched for cases but I cannot find them, which doesn't mean that they don't exist. This makes me curious about two things: (1) do these cases in any significant numbers exist? and (2) why wouldn't the NRA trumpet these examples as actively making sure that people who possesses firearms are being properly monitored?

We have more rules, regulations, licensing and testing for operating a motor vehicle than we do for possessing a firearm.

In most jurisdictions, yes, but not all of them.  New York City comes to mind, for example.

Most people in NYC do not drive cars, much less possess them, so that doesn't seem surprising. Perhaps appropriate, even.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2013, 07:14:24 PM »
It seems that there are two possible states for a carry permit: issued or revoked.

In some jurisdictions, licenses can also be suspended.  In Virginia, for example, if you are arrested and charged with a felony (whether gun related or not), your license to carry a handgun can be suspended.  If you are acquitted, you can get your license back.  Not familiar with other jurisdictions offhand, but I doubt Virginia is the only state that has something like that, or other reasons for suspension.

Quote
The problem is that am not aware of cases in which someone has had their permit revoked due to revealing their firearm in a small, casual way as you describe. I searched for cases but I cannot find them, which doesn't mean that they don't exist.

I'm not aware of any, either.  Which brings us to:

Quote
This makes me curious about two things: (1) do these cases in any significant numbers exist?

There are a few things going on here.  First of all, in many states, information about who has a license to carry a handgun is not public record, and after that New York City newspaper had the brilliant idea of publishing an online interactive map of everyone in the area who had a license to own a firearm, several more states are changing the law to keep such records private as well.  In such states, information about a license revocation would also be confidential.

As it happens, though, Florida is one of the states where such things still are public record[1].  Since 1987, when Florida first became a "shall issue" state, it has issued some two million licenses, out which approximately 0.3% (that is, roughly one out of every three hundred or so, if my math can be relied upon) have ever been revoked.  This includes revocations for all causes; I'm not sure what the breakdown is between minor infractions, major infractions, which ones were gun-related or not, and so on.

Quote
(2) why wouldn't the NRA trumpet these examples as actively making sure that people who possesses firearms are being properly monitored?

The NRA does talk about the fact that people who have carry permits also commit crime at much lower rates than the general population.  That's not quite the same thing, of course, but like any other activist organization, the NRA has an agenda and is not anxious to publicize any incidents that would work against its goals (just as the Brady Campaign, conversely, is loathe to acknowledge any incident in which someone successfully uses a gun to protect himself).  I remember one incident from a few years back in Idaho, I think it was, where some dunce with a license deliberately used his handgun to shoot a toilet in a public restroom.  He lost his license, as you would probably imagine.  I'm sure you can also figure out which side talked about it and which side didn't.

Most people in NYC do not drive cars, much less possess them, so that doesn't seem surprising. Perhaps appropriate, even.

I wouldn't drive if I lived in NYC, either.  I remember the first time I saw the city streets in NYC.  I got scared just standing on the sidewalk.
 1. Which can be annoying if you have a Florida carry license; I speak from experience.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Online Azdgari

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12451
  • Darwins +293/-32
  • Gender: Male
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2013, 10:02:04 PM »
Information about specifically who has and doesn't have a carry license may not be public, and perhaps shouldn't be...but does that mean that the general statistics about them shouldn't be public record?[1]  Surely such information would be useful in drafting legislation, for example.
 1. In states where it's not a matter of public record, I mean
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #40 on: June 04, 2013, 05:19:31 AM »
There are a few things going on here.  First of all, in many states, information about who has a license to carry a handgun is not public record, and after that New York City newspaper had the brilliant idea of publishing an online interactive map of everyone in the area who had a license to own a firearm, several more states are changing the law to keep such records private as well.  In such states, information about a license revocation would also be confidential.

I think this information should be public. Permits issued for a wide variety of things are matters of public record. If you want to have a new electrical circuit installed in your home, you need a permit and it is a matter of public record. We can lookup online to see if our neighbors, for example, have gotten the proper permits for work they are doing. The reality is that hardly anyone goes online to lookup such information, but it is available to all. If I can lookup whether my neighbor has gotten a permit to rewire his house, why not whether he has a permit for a gun?


As it happens, though, Florida is one of the states where such things still are public record[1].  Since 1987, when Florida first became a "shall issue" state, it has issued some two million licenses, out which approximately 0.3% (that is, roughly one out of every three hundred or so, if my math can be relied upon) have ever been revoked.  This includes revocations for all causes; I'm not sure what the breakdown is between minor infractions, major infractions, which ones were gun-related or not, and so on.
 1. Which can be annoying if you have a Florida carry license; I speak from experience.

Why is it annoying? If I applied for such a permit, I would fully expect that information to be a matter of public record. I am shocked that it is not.

If the regulations are such that slight infractions can cause revocations of licenses, doesn't a 0.3% revocation rate seem low?


The NRA does talk about the fact that people who have carry permits also commit crime at much lower rates than the general population.  That's not quite the same thing, of course, but like any other activist organization, the NRA has an agenda and is not anxious to publicize any incidents that would work against its goals.

Actually, publishing such information wouldn't work against its goals, but would rather support them. One of the famous claims of the NRA is that existing laws are sufficient. Well, if so, prove it. The public's opinion of the NRA would be more positive.

However, the recent era agenda of the NRA is to eliminate all gun laws, apparently, at least ones that restrict access to firearms, which will never happen but which it supports by its words if not actions. Ergo, by asking for more than what you will get in order to negotiate for something that you actually want, providing actual data about such things would show that not only does the NRA have an interest in having the carry licenses revoked of poorly trained or inobservant permit possessors, but that they have valid data that it occurs at all.

The problem of the NRA agenda is that it is an ostrich sticking its head in the sand and thinking the rest of the world doesn't exist.


(just as the Brady Campaign, conversely, is loathe to acknowledge any incident in which someone successfully uses a gun to protect himself).  I remember one incident from a few years back in Idaho, I think it was, where some dunce with a license deliberately used his handgun to shoot a toilet in a public restroom.  He lost his license, as you would probably imagine.  I'm sure you can also figure out which side talked about it and which side didn't.

Well, individual cases shouldn't be cited in justifying positions. We should take them all into account. Otherwise, we should follow Wayne LaPierre's position that even 9 year olds should possess firearms: Boy, 9, Fights Home Invaders, Fires Gun: Police


Most people in NYC do not drive cars, much less possess them, so that doesn't seem surprising. Perhaps appropriate, even.

I wouldn't drive if I lived in NYC, either.  I remember the first time I saw the city streets in NYC.  I got scared just standing on the sidewalk.

My experience in NYC was quite the opposite -- I didn't encounter any circumstances in which I was almost hit by a passing car. I found being a pedestrian relatively unproblematic. However, as a driver, I found NYC to be a stressful place to operate a car. I witnessed pedestrians doing just whatever the hell they wanted to do wherever the hell they wanted to do it. I cannot tell you how many times pedestrians attempted to cross in front of me whenever I had the right of way.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #41 on: June 04, 2013, 07:21:11 AM »
I think this information should be public. Permits issued for a wide variety of things are matters of public record. If you want to have a new electrical circuit installed in your home, you need a permit and it is a matter of public record. We can lookup online to see if our neighbors, for example, have gotten the proper permits for work they are doing. The reality is that hardly anyone goes online to lookup such information, but it is available to all. If I can lookup whether my neighbor has gotten a permit to rewire his house, why not whether he has a permit for a gun?

Because there are no criminals who want to break into your house to steal your electrical wiring.

Quote
Why is it annoying?

Mainly because companies can pull the information and try to sell you something, although there can be other reasons as well.  For example, I once received a mailing from a company wanting to sell me a "Concealed Carry Badge" to attach to my holster.  (In case you're curious or anything, "Concealed Carry Badges" are a very, very bad idea.)

Quote
If I applied for such a permit, I would fully expect that information to be a matter of public record. I am shocked that it is not.

The whole point of carrying the gun concealed is so that no one will know you have it.  Having CCW licenses public record defeats that purpose.

Quote
If the regulations are such that slight infractions can cause revocations of licenses, doesn't a 0.3% revocation rate seem low?

There are basically two possible responses to this:

1)  People with CCW permits are much more law-abiding than the general population.  Further, when you carry a gun, you tend to be aware of it, and you also tend to be aware of the consequences of things like letting your gun be exposed.

2)  As with any other law that gets broken, you can only face consequences for it if you get caught.  If you expose your gun and no one sees it, or no one complains, there is unlikely to be any kind of penalty.

Quote
Actually, publishing such information wouldn't work against its goals, but would rather support them. One of the famous claims of the NRA is that existing laws are sufficient. Well, if so, prove it. The public's opinion of the NRA would be more positive.

They actually talk quite a bit about that.  They also talk about existing laws that don't get enforced, most notably, the almost complete lack of prosecutions for prohibited persons who try to buy a gun on a 4473.

Quote
However, the recent era agenda of the NRA is to eliminate all gun laws, apparently

No -- again, one of the things they're constantly complaining about is criminals who try to buy guns and don't get prosecuted.

Quote
providing actual data about such things would show that not only does the NRA have an interest in having the carry licenses revoked of poorly trained or inobservant permit possessors, but that they have valid data that it occurs at all.

The problem is that the gun debate is so heated that each side thinks that if they give an inch, the other side will jump up and down screaming "Victory!"  It's the same reason that the Brady Campaign goes on at great length about what kind of gun safety training should be given to children, all the while very carefully refraining from mentioning that the largest program in the United States, by far, that provides such training is the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program.  Neither side feels it can concede anything positive about the other.  This is a common problem in many debates, of course, but it's more severe with some issues than with others.

Quote
My experience in NYC was quite the opposite -- I didn't encounter any circumstances in which I was almost hit by a passing car. I found being a pedestrian relatively unproblematic. However, as a driver, I found NYC to be a stressful place to operate a car. I witnessed pedestrians doing just whatever the hell they wanted to do wherever the hell they wanted to do it. I cannot tell you how many times pedestrians attempted to cross in front of me whenever I had the right of way.

Either way, it sounds pretty unpleasant.  I'd like to visit New York City sometime, but I'm not sure whether I'll ever have the nerve, frankly.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #42 on: June 04, 2013, 07:27:37 AM »
If the regulations are such that slight infractions can cause revocations of licenses, doesn't a 0.3% revocation rate seem low?

Either Florida gun owners are super responsible or Florida gun laws are extremely lax.

I find the former to be an order of magnitude less likely than the latter.



Also, interesting note, I did not see the Disney event on which the Rude Pundit commented in the Gun Fail list.  So while Gun Fails add up at about 50 incidents per week, we see that it is missing at least a few.  I wonder how many. 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #43 on: June 04, 2013, 07:43:57 AM »
Either Florida gun owners are super responsible or Florida gun laws are extremely lax.

The former is perhaps a bit difficult to quantify objectively.  The latter is more easily addressed.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0790/0790ContentsIndex.html&StatuteYear=2012&Title=-%3E2011-%3EChapter%20790

Have fun.   :D
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #44 on: June 04, 2013, 08:20:27 AM »
http://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=26492

Quote
The past decade has seen a large increase in the amount of Justifiable Homicide cases that are presented in the Florida courts by almost triple. There are also the murder cases that were committed using a gun that have increased by almost half.

Florida Gun Laws have changed a lot of the past decade. It is important to know what they are, so below is a list of some of the more recent laws:

It goes on to name some problematic laws that disqualifies Florida as a future home of Screwtape.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #45 on: June 04, 2013, 08:36:10 AM »
a little update on israel and switzerland.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2012/12/14/mythbusting-israel-and-switzerland-are-not-gun-toting-utopias/

Quote
Ezra Klein: Israel and Switzerland are often mentioned as countries that prove that high rates of gun ownership don’t necessarily lead to high rates of gun crime. In fact, I wrote that on Friday. But you say your research shows that’s not true.

Janet Rosenbaum: First of all, because they don’t have high levels of gun ownership. The gun ownership in Israel and Switzerland has decreased.

...
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #46 on: June 06, 2013, 07:32:35 AM »
http://www.wsfa.com/story/22512996/customers-fire-shots-at-shoplifter-running-from-prattville-belk

Quote
PRATTVILLE, AL (WSFA) - Two private citizens in Prattville took action against a crime they saw committed on Wednesday afternoon - now police are searching for the suspect.

Prattville authorities say two customers followed an alleged shoplifter outside of the Prattville Belk location. When the suspect attempted to flee, police say the private citizens fired shots into the suspect's vehicle.

The shooter has been charged with a misdemeanor and released. 

I just don't get the thinking there.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline DumpsterFire

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 383
  • Darwins +61/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • The Flaming Duck of Death!
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #47 on: June 06, 2013, 08:02:10 AM »
http://www.wsfa.com/story/22512996/customers-fire-shots-at-shoplifter-running-from-prattville-belk

Quote
PRATTVILLE, AL (WSFA) - Two private citizens in Prattville took action against a crime they saw committed on Wednesday afternoon - now police are searching for the suspect.

Prattville authorities say two customers followed an alleged shoplifter outside of the Prattville Belk location. When the suspect attempted to flee, police say the private citizens fired shots into the suspect's vehicle.

The shooter has been charged with a misdemeanor and released. 

I just don't get the thinking there.
I agree, the "shoot first, ask questions later/wannabe hero" mindset some gun-toters have is frightening. Instead of endangering lives over what couldn't have been more than a few hundred dollars worth of merchandise, wouldn't it have made much more sense to whip out a pencil instead of a pistol and jot down the suspect's license number? If they had, the police would have found the guy within hours, but as it is they're still searching. Brilliant!
Providing rednecks with sunblock since 1996.

I once met a man who claimed to be a genius, then boasted that he was a member of "Mesa".

Think for yourself.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2013, 09:12:46 AM »
yes to all that. 

Plus, what absolutely makes me crazy is the yahoo with the gun only got a misdemeanor.  I do not understand why anyone would think he has shown himself to be a responsible gun owner?  Why does he get to keep his guns?  Why this menace even walking freely among us?  It was only luck that he didn't hurt or kill someone over what was at worst some stolen socks.

By getting a misdemeanor it only teaches this idiot that next time he has to make sure to stand in the way of the alleged shoplifter, that way he can consider him to be a physical threat and thus, justified in murdering him.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6879
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #49 on: June 06, 2013, 04:42:23 PM »
If I left a store and two random people started chasing me and shooting at my car, I'd probably flee, too.

Do we even know if the person they shot at was a shoplifter? Or was it just a guy in the same color jacket of the right race and height as someone they thought they saw steal something? And, why the hell would civilians feel entitled to shoot at someone suspected of a minor non-violent property offense anyway?

They should have their guns confiscated, at the very least.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #50 on: June 06, 2013, 11:29:26 PM »
I think this information should be public. Permits issued for a wide variety of things are matters of public record. If you want to have a new electrical circuit installed in your home, you need a permit and it is a matter of public record. We can lookup online to see if our neighbors, for example, have gotten the proper permits for work they are doing. The reality is that hardly anyone goes online to lookup such information, but it is available to all. If I can lookup whether my neighbor has gotten a permit to rewire his house, why not whether he has a permit for a gun?

Because there are no criminals who want to break into your house to steal your electrical wiring.

I think the number of criminals who supposedly are enticed to break into a house to steal guns is way overrated. Way overrated. I think it is the fantasy of gun owners that criminals roam neighborhoods looking for houses to case just to find firearms. Out of all the insurance claims for theft that we handle, I can only think of one claim in 20 years in which a firearm was stolen. Jewelry and electronics are the hottest tickets, and they are more often stolen from cars than homes.

And criminals do, in fact, want to steal your electrical wiring. There are far more claims for copper theft than firearms and they are almost equal to jewelry. Pulling electrical wiring out of a wall is too much effort. Stealing copper wiring from construction sites is soooo much easier. So is popping the hood on heat pumps and cutting out the copper tubes. The heat pumps in my building have been struck twice by copper thieves. We also get a lot of claims for theft of catalytic converters.


Quote
Why is it annoying?

Mainly because companies can pull the information and try to sell you something, although there can be other reasons as well.  For example, I once received a mailing from a company wanting to sell me a "Concealed Carry Badge" to attach to my holster.  (In case you're curious or anything, "Concealed Carry Badges" are a very, very bad idea.)

But I have companies trying to sell me things all the time due to information on file with the state. Whether it is a political party or PAC trying to squeeze donations from me for my political affiliation (or lack thereof), companies selling stamps, crimps and registry books for me being a notary public, other insurance companies soliciting me to work for them or trying to sell me leads because my insurance license is public, etc.

Quote
If I applied for such a permit, I would fully expect that information to be a matter of public record. I am shocked that it is not.

The whole point of carrying the gun concealed is so that no one will know you have it.  Having CCW licenses public record defeats that purpose.

Just because you have a conceal carry permit doesn't mean you carry a firearm every moment of the day. Just because someone has a drivers license doesn't mean that they own a car, much less drive one. Just because I am a notary doesn't mean that I have my kit with me all the time or that I will even be willing to notarize your documents.

On the contrary, I think knowing that someone does have a conceal carry permit would provide extra protection. If somebody wants to do you harm, they are less likely to do so if they think they are going to be met with deadly force.


Quote
If the regulations are such that slight infractions can cause revocations of licenses, doesn't a 0.3% revocation rate seem low?

There are basically two possible responses to this:

1)  People with CCW permits are much more law-abiding than the general population.  Further, when you carry a gun, you tend to be aware of it, and you also tend to be aware of the consequences of things like letting your gun be exposed.

2)  As with any other law that gets broken, you can only face consequences for it if you get caught.  If you expose your gun and no one sees it, or no one complains, there is unlikely to be any kind of penalty.

While people who have the permits might, and probably are, more law-abiding, I think that most people with permits likely don't carry their firearms as much as we might think. Some of the people I know with conceal carry permits like to tout their success in obtaining such a permit moreso than actually carring a firearm at all times. More often, the firearm is stored in a desk drawer or underneath a car seat.


Quote
Actually, publishing such information wouldn't work against its goals, but would rather support them. One of the famous claims of the NRA is that existing laws are sufficient. Well, if so, prove it. The public's opinion of the NRA would be more positive.

They actually talk quite a bit about that.  They also talk about existing laws that don't get enforced, most notably, the almost complete lack of prosecutions for prohibited persons who try to buy a gun on a 4473.

Probably a lack of funding for prosecutions that would be costly, but I agree that we should be doing it. If we are going to have a law, we should enforce it. The same people who proclaim the lack of prosecutions are often intersected with the same people who complain about higher taxes or overzealous prosecutions for people who "just made a mistake". Sometimes the issue is a matter of who is doing the complaining and when.

Quote
However, the recent era agenda of the NRA is to eliminate all gun laws, apparently

No -- again, one of the things they're constantly complaining about is criminals who try to buy guns and don't get prosecuted.

I must disagree here. The NRA has shown to be against legislation that the organization previously supported. While there may be nuances to a piece of legislation from 10 years ago compared to today, the NRA makes no attempt to publicize which parts of the legislation have changed to cause them to withdraw support and thereby encourage a change in the legislation itself to make it more acceptable. While the NRA may be relying on the offenders-don't-get-prosecuted defense, it is a smokescreen to avoid explaining why their positions have changed on the major points of previous legislation.


Quote
providing actual data about such things would show that not only does the NRA have an interest in having the carry licenses revoked of poorly trained or inobservant permit possessors, but that they have valid data that it occurs at all.

The problem is that the gun debate is so heated that each side thinks that if they give an inch, the other side will jump up and down screaming "Victory!"  It's the same reason that the Brady Campaign goes on at great length about what kind of gun safety training should be given to children, all the while very carefully refraining from mentioning that the largest program in the United States, by far, that provides such training is the NRA's "Eddie Eagle" program.  Neither side feels it can concede anything positive about the other.  This is a common problem in many debates, of course, but it's more severe with some issues than with others.

Although I am not familiar with the NRA program or how many young adults it touches, I don't have any reason to disagree with this. Here is the basic problem, however -- the NRA has won more and more concessions about the when, where and how of use of firearms and those who wish to restrict them have won less and less. The NRA doesn't seem to want to come back from the edge of the cliff. While you can point to certain jurisdictions that have tried to provide limits, most of those limits were re-establishing previous limits that were in place before the limits were removed. Only a few actually provided new limits that exceeding anything they previously had, most notably Washington DC, which had its law undone by SCOTUS. However, do we see the NRA stepping in to say what might restrictions might be better to match what the citizens of DC want or hope to have to help reduce crime? No. Even after children in Connecticut were shot in their schoolrooms, the only thing Wayne LaPierre can say is Teachers should be armed. We need more guns in schools. That is not only tone deaf, it's stupid. The only thing -- the only thing -- LaPierre said that made any sense was that we don't have sufficient resources in place to detect and treat mental health problems. That part was very true. But guess what? At the intersection of Second Amendment Solutions is the Tea Party that doesn't want to pay one thin dime for anything else. His concession was to identify something for which he knew there would be no hope in passing legislation -- additional spending on mental health care.

I think an assault weapons ban, per se, is not a solution. It's a band-aid because most people don't die as the result of the use of assault weapons. But when legislators cannot enact laws for requiring background checks for gun shows because the NRA is opposed to it, the NRA is a major loser in that argument -- public relations, common sense, human decency ...


Quote
My experience in NYC was quite the opposite -- I didn't encounter any circumstances in which I was almost hit by a passing car. I found being a pedestrian relatively unproblematic. However, as a driver, I found NYC to be a stressful place to operate a car. I witnessed pedestrians doing just whatever the hell they wanted to do wherever the hell they wanted to do it. I cannot tell you how many times pedestrians attempted to cross in front of me whenever I had the right of way.

Either way, it sounds pretty unpleasant.  I'd like to visit New York City sometime, but I'm not sure whether I'll ever have the nerve, frankly.

Actually, I was impressed with NYC when I visited. As I told Quesi elsewhere, New Yorkers are far less fearful of all kinds of things. They have distinct neighborhoods and they do, indeed, know their neighbors -- most of them, anyway. Unfortunately, my last visit there was many years ago and it was not a trip for pleasure. I was there for obtaining a body from the morgue, planning a wake/funeral and dealing with the estate of the deceased. At the same time, I had a major head cold and my wife was 8 months pregnant. We drove into the city and parked at a Kinney garage for $35/day (that should indicate how long ago that was). I went through parts of NYC that no tourist ever sees. I was quite shocked at how pleasant many New Yorkers were -- many of whom had no idea why we were in their city.

There was one exception, however. The bitch answering the phone for the Bronx Circuit Court. She wasn't just unhelpful, she was testy, arrogant and rude. I was just asking questions about how to proceed with matters of an estate and she hung up on me. She rattled off information all at once ... like an assault weapon ... and expected me to write and understand at light speed. If I didn't get everything the first time, well fuck me and the mother who bore me. Oh, yeah, and her mother, too. *CLICK* She was even less pleasant on my second call ...

The biggest problem with NYC is exactly that -- it's too damn big. It's sometimes easier to travel between boroughs than to move within a borough. Most of my time was spent in Manhattan, and the only borough I missed was Staten Island. Hailing a taxi in Manhattan is easy until you get to about 132nd Street (if I remember correctly, or is it 123rd Street?) -- that's no man's land, or at least it was back then. You're not likely to go there anyway. The Bronx has some old, wonderful apartment buildings that are in dire need of rehab. I'm sure rent control prevents that.

Do yourself a favor and don't go to Times Square. When I was there it was not as fancy as it is now. It was a urine collection location back then. Now, it appears to be an urban version of Disneyland. If you go, pick something specific to go see -- if you like museums or shows, stay in that general area and walk it -- enjoy it like the neighbors do. If you don't, then you are just going to see tourist sites with other tourists and you won't be enjoying NYC, you will just be in it. There's a big difference.

NYC and DC have a lot of similarities. The problem with DC is that people are not typically rude, but they aren't typically friendly, either.



John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #51 on: June 06, 2013, 11:36:46 PM »
This is not Gun Fail as much as Justice Fail (a gun was used):

Jury Acquits Texas Man For Murder Of Escort Who Refused Sex

Quote
A Texas jury acquitted a man for the murder of a woman he hired as an escort, after his lawyers claimed he was authorized to use deadly force because she refused sex.

...

This shockingly broad statute authorizes individuals to take not just law enforcement, but punishment, into their own hands and impose death for alleged offenses that would never warrant the death penalty even if the person were convicted in court.

Apparently the jury decided that, by golly, she should have given back that $150 he gave her in the first place.

I'm guessing the "open for business" sign in Texas just got flipped to "CLOSED" for whores, prostitutes and call girls.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #52 on: June 07, 2013, 06:26:54 AM »
Did this make the list of Gun Fails?

http://www.wusa9.com/news/article/262318/373/Md-Teen-To-Serve-7-Years-For-Shooting-Friend

Man, 18, sentenced in December shooting of friend

Quote
Gray told police he became annoyed with the 16-year-old. He grabbed a .32-caliber semi-automatic handgun from his bedroom and went to the front door, according to charging documents.

Gray believed the gun was not loaded and intended only to scare the friend, but instead fired a shot into his upper right chest, according to court records and testimony.
...
Another of Gray's friends, Cory Aaron Nowalk, brought the gun to Gray's home, and disposed of it after the shooting, prosecutors said.


A loaded gun within reach is the only way to defend yourself in a home invasion, but it's also the easy way to let your 17yo take it over to a friend's house for an afternoon of video games and reckless endangerment.




« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 06:46:29 AM by Chronos »
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12573
  • Darwins +703/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #53 on: June 07, 2013, 11:28:52 AM »
I'd like to visit New York City sometime, but I'm not sure whether I'll ever have the nerve, frankly.

NY is great.  I find the rep it has to be anachronistic.  Sure, NY was dangerous and dirty back in the 70s.  But it has not been like that in at least 20 years.  Every time I go there I find NYers friendly and helpful, particularly when I need help finding the right subway line. 

You want to talk about dangrous and awful cities, try Baltimore. 

Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #54 on: June 07, 2013, 11:51:42 AM »
You want to talk about dangrous and awful cities, try Baltimore.

A friend of mine from college was born and raised there.  He said he could never overemphasize what a shithole that place was.  I have to pass thru it several times a year -- get off the train at Penn Station, then get a cab to get to my conventions.  Just what little portion of the city I've seen that way really does look mind-bogglingly disgusting.  In the immortal words of Ted Striker, "It was worse than Detroit."

I do want to see NYC at some point.  Apart from the obvious tourist stuff, I'd also like to see a shoot for one of the "Law and Order" shows.  Or even just some of the filming locations.  No money this year, though... long and expensive trip to Ireland coming up, plus I got a love letter from the IRS a couple of days ago claiming that I owe them $1,800.  I plan to dispute it, since I'm pretty sure they're wrong, but I have to prepare for the worst.   Fortunately, the stock market has been pretty good to me lately, so I can cover it if I absolutely have to.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6879
  • Darwins +925/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #55 on: June 07, 2013, 04:01:56 PM »
This is not Gun Fail as much as Justice Fail (a gun was used):

Jury Acquits Texas Man For Murder Of Escort Who Refused Sex

Quote
A Texas jury acquitted a man for the murder of a woman he hired as an escort, after his lawyers claimed he was authorized to use deadly force because she refused sex.

...

This shockingly broad statute authorizes individuals to take not just law enforcement, but punishment, into their own hands and impose death for alleged offenses that would never warrant the death penalty even if the person were convicted in court.

Apparently the jury decided that, by golly, she should have given back that $150 he gave her in the first place.

I'm guessing the "open for business" sign in Texas just got flipped to "CLOSED" for whores, prostitutes and call girls.

Remind me to stay out of Texas. Not only because I could be shot dead if I refused to deliver services previously arranged for. Just on principle. BTW is prostitution legal in god-humpin' Texas these days?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #56 on: June 07, 2013, 08:07:29 PM »
You want to talk about dangrous and awful cities, try Baltimore.

Baltimore is not awful, nor quite as dangerous as it is made out to be. It certainly has its problems. Most people are not likely to venture into the areas that are bad anyway, like the west side. I go all over the city for various things. The biggest problems Baltimore has are the large tracts of dilapidated or abandoned housing. Baltimore does have some rather nice sections. The city has gone through a major renaissance that prevented it from becoming what Detroit is today and people are moving into the city every day. Baltimore just needs a lot more of the renaissance.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 2428
  • Darwins +130/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Born without religion
    • Marking Time
Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #57 on: June 07, 2013, 08:19:39 PM »
You want to talk about dangrous and awful cities, try Baltimore.

A friend of mine from college was born and raised there.  He said he could never overemphasize what a shithole that place was.  I have to pass thru it several times a year -- get off the train at Penn Station, then get a cab to get to my conventions.  Just what little portion of the city I've seen that way really does look mind-bogglingly disgusting.  In the immortal words of Ted Striker, "It was worse than Detroit."

I have to disagree on it being worse than Detroit. It really isn't. However, kudos to Detroit for actually razing housing that was not being used or had become a hazard. Baltimore rarely does that. Whether it is for historic reasons (doubtful) or stupid pride (more likely), they should just eradicate some of the entire blocks of housing that is not being used and build something more attractive. They have, in fact, done exactly that in a few places, but they need to do a lot more. One large block in/near the west side was transformed into new energy-efficient LEED housing with passive and active solar energy, geothermal heating, strategic lighting, etc. The homes were quite expensive and they were bought up quickly by young professionals. There is demand for this type of activity, but for some reason a system that is choking it. Baltimore City government? That stubborn pride for marble stoops? I dunno.


I do want to see NYC at some point.  Apart from the obvious tourist stuff, I'd also like to see a shoot for one of the "Law and Order" shows.  Or even just some of the filming locations. 

Hell, on too many occasions I got stranded between streets on Baltimore's west side when The Wire was filming (I'm glad it's off the air), not to mention more than a few movies. Some famous filming locations just up the road from you ... VEEP is shot in a nondescript warehouse in Sykesville -- of all places.


No money this year, though... long and expensive trip to Ireland coming up, plus I got a love letter from the IRS a couple of days ago claiming that I owe them $1,800.  I plan to dispute it, since I'm pretty sure they're wrong, but I have to prepare for the worst.   Fortunately, the stock market has been pretty good to me lately, so I can cover it if I absolutely have to.

NYC is an expensive place to stay, but not that much more than DC, really. It does depend on what level of accommodations you want. One of my old co-workers could masterfully find/make great deals on hotel rooms in NY. I have no idea how she did it.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.