Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 24349 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #812 on: August 29, 2014, 11:05:22 PM »
Then you would have to arrest hundreds, perhaps thousands, of parents in New York City who routinely allow their 11yo children walk to school alone or catch a ride on a city bus alone to travel to their schools every day. The travel home the same way.

I'm not saying people should be arrested; I'm just saying all standards should be applied or what's the point of having standards?

A parent leaves their child alone[1] in a park, gets arrested.

A parent allows their child to fire an Uzi where a person gets killed yet no charges filed against anyone.

The latter being legal, the former not. However if the standard is to prosecute the one then both should be prosecuted or neither should be.

That's what i'm saying.

-Nam
 1. without an actual designated person to watch them
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Offline atheola

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #813 on: August 31, 2014, 07:49:57 PM »
Our society is far more protective of kids than when I was a kid. The difference is now there's a 24 hour news thing and a reporter monitoring things so it looks worse when in fact when I was a kid child rape was fairly common and fairly unreported. Back then the crime rate was much higher, but it went largely unreported. As the nation mag reports this is a golden age of investigative reporting, but so much is going on it's tough to keep up with it all.
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #814 on: September 01, 2014, 01:09:41 AM »
^^^I think that is true. Crime rates are lower, kids overall are safer, we are healthier and live longer-- but we have twitter and other social media keeping us all alerted and alarmed about every possible negative thing nowadays. And the crime news gets hyped and repeated over and over until we know every single little detail.

Maybe that is one of the reasons so many people think they need guns.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #815 on: September 01, 2014, 01:40:56 PM »
When you hear the same story 100 times it makes it sound like it is happening 1,000 times.
John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #816 on: September 01, 2014, 07:57:10 PM »
^^^^Yes. When it was only the newspaper and one nightly news program, it was bad enough. Now you have to be exposed to the same awful news about racial violence in Ferguson, ISIS beheading a reporter or whatever, 100 times from different people all giving their two cents and "covering" the different angles.

And it is hard not to assume that "for every one you hear about, there are 10 more you don't hear about" as in plural of anecdote equaling data. I have had so many black folks tell me that <insert awful conspiracy story here> was true and moreover, it had to be ten times as bad as the news let on.

The most recent one was "people in China eat human babies in restaurants". Based on this one online photo of a Chinese performance artist pretending to eat a baby doll. I think  it got re-circulated by Christian groups with a different caption talking about how the Chinese have no religion and therefor no morality and therefore anything goes and see this businessman is in a restaurant eating an actual baby like it is a normal food. And this has to mean that everyone in China sits down to an everyday meal of baby soup....

WTF?

I realize that there are some people openly doing crazy awful illegal sh!t, bragging about it and putting photos of it online, but they tend to be terrorists and psychos, folks with nothing to lose or who want to be caught. Restaurants where casual cannibalism, and of babies yet, is openly practiced, is one business opportunity that I can't see catching on. Certainly not advertised online!

As I said to the person who showed me the baby eating guy on her phone (and explained the story to me in breathless horror), "Killing babies and eating them for food is illegal in every single society on the planet. People everywhere would be as horrified and disgusted as you are. What does that tell you?"
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #817 on: September 01, 2014, 09:19:12 PM »
The irony about the Chinese baby eating rumors is that if American corporations could figure out how to make a buck serving kiddie au gratin, we would all be one Madison Avenue ad campaign away from a new fad.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline atheola

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #818 on: September 02, 2014, 05:08:41 AM »
For some reason it makes me think of the phrase, 'Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.'...  :P
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Offline atheola

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #819 on: September 02, 2014, 05:18:45 AM »
Unrelated, but another news goodie was CNN's interview with the detainees in NK and the guy who left his bible in his hotel room..
We need Saturday morning cartoons now to remind these dipshits to leave their bibles at home when traveling to NK?  :o
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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #820 on: September 02, 2014, 07:54:45 AM »
For some reason it makes me think of the phrase, 'Don't throw the baby out with the bath water.'...  :P

I was trying to work in the phrase "mom and pop restaurants", but decided against it.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #821 on: September 02, 2014, 12:11:12 PM »
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #822 on: September 02, 2014, 06:39:27 PM »
Quote
County prosecutors say the instructor was probably the most criminally negligent person involved in the accident for having allowed the child to hold the gun without enough training. They also said the parents and child weren't criminally culpable.

You can give your 9yo daughter an Uzi that she can't handle and subsequently kill someone (however unintentionally), but allowing your child to go alone to a park and play can land you in jail.

All brought to you be reactionary people who are interested in child welfare unless the child is holding an Uzi because she is exercising her Second Amendment rights.

Lunacy.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #823 on: September 02, 2014, 07:06:42 PM »
Quote
County prosecutors say the instructor was probably the most criminally negligent person involved in the accident for having allowed the child to hold the gun without enough training. They also said the parents and child weren't criminally culpable.

You can give your 9yo daughter an Uzi that she can't handle and subsequently kill someone (however unintentionally), but allowing your child to go alone to a park and play can land you in jail.

All brought to you be reactionary people who are interested in child welfare unless the child is holding an Uzi because she is exercising her Second Amendment rights.

Lunacy.



The parents can sue the gun range for emotional distress. So can the instructor's family. It's a win/win for everyone if you think insanely enough.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #824 on: September 03, 2014, 02:20:49 PM »

The parents can sue the gun range for emotional distress. So can the instructor's family. It's a win/win for everyone if you think insanely enough.



Unless Arizona has a law that the gun range violated, there can be no infliction of emotional distress because there was no obligation for the instructor to stop. Also, since the adult instructor and both parents agreed to allow their 9yo to fire an Uzi, and the parents were gun owners seeking to fire arms on a course and have the capability to understand the consequences, I cannot find where a tort occurred.

I think it should be against the law for anyone under 16 to own or possess firearms. Period. If they aren't sufficiently responsible to drive a car then they aren't sufficiently responsible to handle firearms.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #825 on: September 03, 2014, 02:54:54 PM »
^^^^That sounds like a good idea to me. Let's act like grownups. Motor vehicles, alcohol, drugs where legalized, working a job, getting married, voting, serving in the military all have a minimum age/maturity level applied.

Guess what's missing from the list? The only one that a child can accidentally kill someone with across the street.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #826 on: September 04, 2014, 08:51:03 AM »
Idaho professor accidentally shoots himself in the foot in chemistry class

Quote
(Reuters) - An Idaho State University assistant professor with a concealed-carry gun permit shot himself in the foot with a semiautomatic handgun that accidentally discharged from inside his pocket in a chemistry classroom full of students, police said on Wednesday.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #827 on: September 04, 2014, 10:00:00 AM »
Let's put the explosives next to dangerous chemicals.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline One Above All

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #828 on: September 04, 2014, 10:08:20 AM »
Let's put the explosives next to dangerous chemicals.

What could go wrong? ;D &)

-Nam

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #829 on: September 04, 2014, 10:24:40 AM »
I think it should be against the law for anyone under 16 to own or possess firearms. Period. If they aren't sufficiently responsible to drive a car then they aren't sufficiently responsible to handle firearms.

I would love to take my kids to a fully auto range.  But I think that a barrel tether might be required for first time shooters.  Especially first time shooters of unwieldy weapons like a light weight  machine pistol. 

I am sure that there have been other 9 year olds who have fired this thing.  After the first two or three spray ammo dangerously in all directions I would think changes would  be made to limit risks.  I think it could be made safe with out banning it completely. 

Now does a 9 year old need to be shooting a 9mm Uzi?  No, But it is a heluva lot of fun. 

do 9 year olds need to be climbing trees and mountains?  No but it is a heluva lot of fun.  (kids die in tree  related events daily)  I am all for making things safer but I don't see any reason shooting a machine gun could not be made reasonably safe.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #830 on: September 04, 2014, 10:31:03 AM »
I am all for making things safer but I don't see any reason shooting a machine gun could not be made reasonably safe.

It can be made safe simply by keeping it out of the hands of people who can't safely wield it. That's just the first step, obviously.
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Offline Boots

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #831 on: September 04, 2014, 10:35:02 AM »
Now does a 9 year old need to be shooting a 9mm Uzi?  No, But it is a heluva lot of fun. 

do 9 year olds need to be climbing trees and mountains?  No but it is a heluva lot of fun.  (kids die in tree  related events daily) 

I'm frowning, epidemic.  Trees and mountains weren't crafted with the express purpose of killing as many humans in as short an amount of time as possible.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #832 on: September 04, 2014, 10:59:44 AM »
Now does a 9 year old need to be shooting a 9mm Uzi?  No, But it is a heluva lot of fun. 

do 9 year olds need to be climbing trees and mountains?  No but it is a heluva lot of fun.  (kids die in tree  related events daily) 

I'm frowning, epidemic.  Trees and mountains weren't crafted with the express purpose of killing as many humans in as short an amount of time as possible.

What they were crafted for is really irrelevant.  A bow and arrow was specifically created as a killing tool.  would you ban children from holding them because an 8 year old shot his neighbor under close supervision? 

Most human activity including risky ones can be boiled down to The simple equation is what is the risk of the activity vs benefit/entertainment value.   

No kid needs to climb trees or mountains.  If a moments inattention can and does result in deaths occasionally then you need to evaluate the value of the activity?

Yes you are right we could ban the activity.  Should we ban all pointless dangerous leisure activities? 

Now seriously I have never shot a fully automatic uzi.  I do not know if it is beyond the physical capability of an 8 year old girl or not.  I am only guessing that other 8 year olds have accomplished this feat with out incident.  Assuming most are able to reign in the power of the gun then we are probably dealing with an outlier.  To insure accidents like this don't happen we might need to modify the training to insure safety.

Tethers bars or something to restrict range of motion (protecting shooter and audience)
You wouldn't put your kids on the foot ball field without helmet and pads.
you would not allow your kid to ride his bike without a helmet!

Safety precautions should be observed.

PS do you know why kids wear bike helmets today?   BEcause a whole lot of kids died and had TBI's.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #833 on: September 04, 2014, 11:20:03 AM »
Now seriously I have never shot a fully automatic uzi.  I do not know if it is beyond the physical capability of an 8 year old girl or not.  I am only guessing that other 8 year olds have accomplished this feat with out incident.

Let me put it this way: an Uzi weighs 3.5 kilos. Ever met a 9 year-old who could carry a small flailing animal without dropping it? Yeah, me neither. And that's without taking into account the recoil.
EDIT: By "that's without taking into account the recoil", I meant the 3.5 kilos a child would have to bear. The recoil introduces a new variable that makes the situation even more insane.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2014, 12:39:32 PM by One Above All »
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #834 on: September 04, 2014, 11:22:44 AM »
^^^^ edit not you One Above All this is meant for epidemic's post

The point is though you're talking about giving a kid a weapon.
Why not just give them broadswords and set them off playing braveheart? What about the my-little-executioner set for those wanna be headsmen/women?

The reason why is because it is incredibly dangerous. Yeah kids may die climbing trees but as boots said, trees aren't leathal killing machines and we are kind of adapted to make use of them...
Take a look at the title of this thread, it isn't "Tree Fails".

Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #835 on: September 04, 2014, 12:34:35 PM »
^^^^ edit not you One Above All this is meant for epidemic's post

The point is though you're talking about giving a kid a weapon.
Why not just give them broadswords and set them off playing braveheart? What about the my-little-executioner set for those wanna be headsmen/women?

The reason why is because it is incredibly dangerous. Yeah kids may die climbing trees but as boots said, trees aren't leathal killing machines and we are kind of adapted to make use of them...
Take a look at the title of this thread, it isn't "Tree Fails".

I don't find the weapon thing key to the conversation, at least not  in and of itself.  Knives, clubs, bows an arrows are all weapons capable of causing death.  Would I give a kid a broad sword to play braveheart with???  No!!!  Would you give a kid a club to play caveman with his friends? 

I don't think anyone is suggesting giving a kid a machine gun to go play army with his friends and their super soakers.  We are talking about a controlled environment that may have had a flaw in the controls and safety measures. 

I am not even suggesting that kids be allowed to fire this gun.  I don't know enough about the reasonable safety measures that can be implemented to accomplish this in 99.9999% safety  Or at safety associated with other activities kids get involved in.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #836 on: September 04, 2014, 12:49:19 PM »
I think people are reacting to this in a bit of the wrong way.  Yes, the girl will be traumatized/hardened somewhat by the experience of killing her instructor.

But isn't that kind of the point?  I mean, other than to train her to be a killer, what reason would there possibly be to introduce this girl at a young age to that kind of weapon?  What is the motivation, if not to make her more comfortable with handling the means of mass killing?

If anything, killing the instructor will help her on her way.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #837 on: September 04, 2014, 02:12:54 PM »
I think people are reacting to this in a bit of the wrong way.  Yes, the girl will be traumatized/hardened somewhat by the experience of killing her instructor.

But isn't that kind of the point?  I mean, other than to train her to be a killer, what reason would there possibly be to introduce this girl at a young age to that kind of weapon?  What is the motivation, if not to make her more comfortable with handling the means of mass killing?

If anything, killing the instructor will help her on her way.

Why introduce a kid to anything fun and exciting.    you could just keep them home reading books that would be safe.

I enjoyed my firearms training as a kid.  it was a semi right of passage.  I would have been thrilled to include an UZI in the list of guns I got to fire as a kid.  I have yet to kill another human being or even seriously consider it:)  3 of my 4 kids have all shot guns of varying flavors 1 is graduated and has not shot up a school,  another is a senior and she has not shot up a school or killed anyone and my 15 year old is a nice kid who knows right from wrong and is an all around nice guy.    my youngest at 6 has not yet fired a gun Probably in the spring when he turns 7.  But he still has some growing up before I let him handle the gun.


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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #838 on: September 04, 2014, 06:47:47 PM »
As someone who has lived overseas a lot, this kid with a gun thing is hurting my brain.

Sure every culture reckons risk and danger versus fun and excitement differently. Ziplining, scuba diving, rock climbing, ice fishing, riding dirt bikes are all risky. Martial arts training, riding horses, camping, rugby and wrestling are risky. Using power tools is risky. Kids in some countries learn to handle knives and machetes as tools well before age ten-- sometimes losing fingers in accidents. 

But I can't think of a single country other than the US where children of that age are handed firearms by their parents, not to hunt for food, but to shoot for fun, or to shoot at people for self defense. I know several US families, some highly Christian, usually military background, where the children have been handling guns since they were 7 or 8.

Most of us would agree that kids under 10 are not mature enough to comprehend what taking a life means. That is why the child soldier phenomenon is such a profound tragedy. But where there is no war or disaster, why does normal urban middle class family life involve children shooting guns?
 
Why is there not some kind of mandatory insurance rider along with the purchase of a firearm, or use at a gun range? Do gun ranges have waivers of liability that people sign?[1]

Can any legal eagles here explain why toys and games can get taken off the market if a kid gets hurt or almost gets hurt, and someone sues, but people can hand an automatic pistol to a child to fire? And there is no possibility of a lawsuit or removal of the item from the market, even if a child dies or kills someone else? Is it that an adult has to obtain the weapon first? Is it that the guns are not marketed directly to children?

I imagine it is only a matter of time before someone does just that. Babies have their own computers now. The Little Shooter, Baby's First Firearm.  :( :P
 1. I went horseback riding and the amount of paperwork and release forms they made you sign would have choked aforementioned horse. Basically, if Old Widebottom bucks you off, tramples you to death and kicks your bloody remains off the trail a mile down into the canyon, don't come crawling to us.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #839 on: September 04, 2014, 09:32:43 PM »
Why introduce a kid to anything fun and exciting.    you could just keep them home reading books that would be safe.

Unless you wish to make the case that at 9 years old there are no viable "fun and exciting" alternatives to firing off a machine gun, this point of yours is irrelevant to the topic.  But you knew that, didn't you?
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #840 on: September 04, 2014, 10:56:23 PM »
Why introduce a kid to anything fun and exciting.    you could just keep them home reading books that would be safe.

That statement is vapid. There are plenty of things that are fun and exciting that children do all the time, and 99.99% of them do not involve guns. You are also assuming that all kids would find guns exciting. Many don't.

I enjoyed my firearms training as a kid.  it was a semi right of passage.  I would have been thrilled to include an UZI in the list of guns I got to fire as a kid. 

I keep hearing that this firing of a gun is a right of passage.  Why?  Because we have a macho culture in which the firearm is the next best thing to a penis? That's what I am guessing. You aren't a man until you can shoot something.   Just idiotic.    Okay, so you have now fired a gun by age ____ (9?), then what? What was the point?  It's like saying that you had a rite of passage because you learned to use a hammer and you tried all kinds of different hammers and went and hammered everything ...



I have yet to kill another human being or even seriously consider it:)  3 of my 4 kids have all shot guns of varying flavors 1 is graduated and has not shot up a school,  another is a senior and she has not shot up a school or killed anyone and my 15 year old is a nice kid who knows right from wrong and is an all around nice guy.    my youngest at 6 has not yet fired a gun Probably in the spring when he turns 7.  But he still has some growing up before I let him handle the gun.

... yet? ... to seriously consider it?  Humor, I suppose.

Just because you have kids who know right from wrong doesn't mean that everyone else does. Kids have all kinds of wild ideas, interpretations and peer pressures. And, their behavior can change rapidly. Kids are, more or less, psychiatric patients under the care of their parents until age 18 when they are legally required to be released from their inpatient stay.


I didn't fire a gun until I was 19 or 20. My brother (a police officer at the time) offered to let me shoot his Beretta at bottles. I thought I would try it to see what all the fuss was about. I wasn't impressed. I didn't fire a gun again until I was about 37 when I fired a Beretta shotgun at clays. Slightly more fun but still not impressive. At 43, I then fired a Glock and a Springfield at an indoor range. I became curious as to how well I could improve and I momentarily thought about buying a gun, but then I returned to the realization that it would be another thing in my house, rarely being used, taking up space and potentially causing serious harm or death to someone -- and I dismissed the purchase of a gun because it would just be silly all around.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.