Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 21348 times)

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Online Azdgari

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #435 on: November 19, 2013, 01:02:54 AM »
Driving a car is not a protected right...yet it is easier to do that in all 48 contiguous states than it is to exercise your rights in all the states.

Organizing a street-blocking protest is also a protected right, and it takes more legal hassle than buying a car, too.  There are good reasons for that.

Have you wondered why you consider the right to hold a gun to be more important than the privilege of owning[1] a vehicle?

What difference does it make if taking the Greyhound is more expensive or restricts your convenience? We don't have the right to drive our cars whenever and wherever we please. If we need to get somewhere we can rely on public transportation or commercial transportation.

The analogy was based on personal reactions, not on rights vs privileges.  Quoted from Pianodwarf:
Quote
And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

Read the post for context.

The analogy doesn't fail. Just your willingness to accept it.


Any religious nutjob can claim that about any analogy they use.  You saying it here is no different.  "You're just being closed-minded!  Open your heart!"

You don't need a car to travel cross country. Most people don't need a car period. And young people are starting to realize this fact.

You do need some sort of vehicle to travel cross-country.  I suppose to keep it analogous, one could always hire an assassin or armed bodyguard in a new state instead of carrying one's own firearms, too.  A matter of convenience.

Your "Edit" highlights the argument that taking a Greyhound complicates things and makes it more expensive for people. All the different state laws concerning guns complicate things and make it more expensive for responsible gun owners.

You've...never actually done both a bus-based road trip and a car-based road trip, in real life, have you?

If I wanted to give my brother a shotgun for Christmas but he live two states away from me, what is the easiest and least expensive way to get it to him legally?

Assuming he's legally capable of acquiring such firearms, semd him a gift certificate to GunMart or whatever store carries it.  That way he can purchase it himself and you've avoided an unnecessary transfer of dangerous materials across states.
 1. You said "driving" a vehicle - which would not be analogous to owning a gun, but to shooting a gun.  Owning vs owning, using vs using.
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Offline zvuv

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #436 on: November 19, 2013, 01:11:52 AM »
I take a weapon with me when I drive  and when I go hiking in the woods.

An important factor in discussing guns in civilian society is that it depends a great deal on local culture and the US is very heterogeneous.  What applies in NYC may not be relevant to the back woods of northern New Mexico where I live.  What works for Switzerland might not work in Somalia.

Just because you don't encounter violence in your area, doesn't mean that everybody else is equally secure.  There are about 10,000 homicides every year in the US (mostly committed with handguns).  This means that if you live in an area where the level of violence is below average, there are other regions where it is very high.  Compare NYC with Louisiana

Three people that I knew personally have been murdered here.  One was deliberately run down on the highway. Another was shot in the leg by an unseen shooter with a high power rifle.  He survived with a permanent limp but the passenger in his vehicle  was also shot and killed.    If you are a woman traveling alone and  break down on the highway at night or on a back road, you are in a very dangerous situation.

If you are hiking in the woods and you run across poachers you may be in serious trouble.   Then too, we have bear, cat and coyote here and if there has been a long drought, they get hungry and aggressive.   Not long ago a mountain came into my garage and took my cat.

I have no objection to limiting the capacity of magazines but it's a waste of political capital.  With just a little practice a semi automatic weapon can be reloaded in under two seconds,  about the length of time you might pause between shots to acquire a new target.  It's not worth fighting over.

Revolvers are lower capacity and slower to reload buuuut  here is Jerry Miculek firing 12 shots in 3 seconds out of a six shooter!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lLk1v5bSFPw

An anti gun fail :)
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:44:04 AM by zvuv »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #437 on: November 19, 2013, 01:12:10 AM »
If I wanted to give my brother a shotgun for Christmas but he live two states away from me, what is the easiest and least expensive way to get it to him legally?

Assuming he's legally capable of acquiring such firearms, semd him a gift certificate to GunMart or whatever store carries it.  That way he can purchase it himself and you've avoided an unnecessary transfer of dangerous materials across states.

So...when you want to give a personal gift to someone you love...you send them a gift card to some generic store?
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Offline zvuv

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #438 on: November 19, 2013, 01:25:51 AM »
If I wanted to give my brother a shotgun for Christmas but he live two states away from me, what is the easiest and least expensive way to get it to him legally?
[/quote]

The easiest and cheapest way is to purchase the gun online, e.g.  GunsAmerica.com or Buds Gun Shop, and have them ship it directly to a dealer with a Federal Firearms License near him.  He will have to pass an ATF background check which will take the dealer about 5 mins if there are no "issues".  And yeah,  send him a gift card to cover the $25  transfer  fee that the FFL dealer will collect.

If you already have possession of the gun,  you can ship it UPS or FedEx  (NOT USPS!)  to his FFL or take it to a local FFL and have him ship it.  An FFL is allowed to send guns through USPS.

Shipping and transfer fees will add $40 - $70 to the cost of the gun, which is why most prefer to buy privately without shipping or registration.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 01:28:42 AM by zvuv »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #439 on: November 19, 2013, 01:31:13 AM »
If you already have possession of the gun,  you can ship it UPS or FedEx  (NOT USPS!)  to his FFL or take it to a local FFL and have him ship it.  An FFL is allowed to send guns through USPS.

That is very interesting and helpful...thank you.

I guess carrying the present with me as I drive is out of the question.

Shame that.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #440 on: November 19, 2013, 01:37:47 AM »
I live in Montana. In my 25 years in this area, I remember two non-domestic murders. (Statewide, we have many more. But not many around here.) Granted, one included four deaths. It was drug related. They caught the guy eventually..  So, two incidents, five murders. Not bad for a quarter of a century. We have a few domestic murders now and then, but I ain't domestic, so I'm safe.

I don't know where the key to my cottage is. It is never locked. In a previous house I rented, I didn't have a key either. I left for three weeks to do some work our of state, and ended up being gone for seven months, because I got lots more work. My house was not locked at all during that period. Nothing was missing when I got home.

I go hiking without a gun. The likelyhood of being attacked by a wild animal big enough to hurt me (and there are several) is minimal. Certainly not enough to warrant spending money on something I don't want.

But I've lived in Boston without owning a gun too. I've lived in Portland, OR without owning a gun. I did volunteer work in a poor neighborhood of a mid-sized Indiana city without owning a gun.Even though, as a white guy, I was in the minority.

So each situation is different, I suppose. And fear levels differ from person to person. All I know is that I would rather not contribute to the profits of the firearms industry or add numbers onto accidental shooting statistical charts, and I sure as hell don't want to kill anyone. So I go gunless.

Basically, I refuse to go through life being frightened. As a large enough white guy, I can get away with it. Or at least I have so far. Were I short or female or a short female weighing half what I do now, I might have a different attitude. But that too what partially depend on where I lived and how dangerous I felt my environment was. If I were living where I do now, I wouldn't bother. I know lots of single women living alone near me who don't have a gun. And they're doing fine too.

I would prefer a world without guns. Not because I want to deprive people who enjoy guns of pleasure. But because I would like to see the number of meaningless, gun-related deaths drop to zero. But since I'm not the boss, it ain't gonna happen.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #441 on: November 19, 2013, 01:56:40 AM »

I don't know where the key to my cottage is.

Jetson lifted it, the sneaky Texan bastard.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #442 on: November 19, 2013, 02:37:16 AM »

I don't know where the key to my cottage is.

Jetson lifted it, the sneaky Texan bastard.

I hadn't thought of that. Now that I think about it…  :(



Nah, I lost the key while I was building the place, about three days after installing the new door. But even if I had the key I wouldn't lock it.

I do appreciate that I live in a safe area. I know not everyone does.

Also, it helps that we don't have spiders the size of space shuttles and snakes longer than a football field. If I lived in Australia, I'd be dead by now. Because that's all a person can do in that country. Die of something.

You must live somewhere else, magic. The actual population of Australia is zero. It has to be. The place is too dangerous.

I have yet to figure out why kangaroos don't have fangs. Poison fangs. Where were they when the badass was being handed out?
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #443 on: November 19, 2013, 02:44:56 AM »

I have yet to figure out why kangaroos don't have fangs. Poison fangs. Where were they when the badass was being handed out?

They may not have fangs but they can be bloody aggressive. Not this one though:



Better than shooting it...
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Offline zvuv

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #444 on: November 19, 2013, 10:49:00 AM »
I guess carrying the present with me as I drive is out of the question.
Shame that.

It really depends on the states you are driving through.  In many states, perhaps the majority, you are ok if the firearm is locked in the trunk of the vehicle.  Usually  a vehicle is considered private property like your house and if the state allows you to keep a shotgun in your house, then you can do so in your vehicle. 

You would have to do some research and then decide whether you trusted your understanding of the laws.   Were it me, I'd just lock it in the trunk and not worry.  As a middle class white guy, the chance of my vehicle being searched is miniscule,  but then, I'm a risk taker.

If you take it to an FFL or ship it yourself  (be sure to tell them it's a firearm so that you can do it right) then you know you are righteous legally but it costs money and time.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #445 on: November 19, 2013, 01:33:39 PM »
No, it is not the point.  Go thru the exercise as indicated, then ask yourself how you would feel if you had to deal with the same thing with regard to your driver's license.  You'd be outraged.

Are you saying you are outraged every state does not have the same gun laws as yours?  If so, I'm with you.  I find states will laws unlike mine to be outrageous.  If every state would adopt NJ gun laws, then we could put this whole thing to bed.

Also, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.  Yes, gun laws are different in different states.  Yes, it can be frustrating if you want to keep Gladys within your reach at all times.  But I still have a hard time accepting that premise - traveling with your gun.  Who are you, Paladin?[1]   

Sorry, I have no sympathy for your pain here, pd. 




Owning and driving your own vehicle across state lines is not a protected right under the constitution.

Technically, neither is owning a gun.  For one, it does not specifically mention guns, but the far more ambiguous "arms".  I know, I know, the SCOTUS ruled that it meant handguns, but the point stands.  It is not spelled out in the constitution, activist right-wing judges not withstanding.[2] 

Secondly, it does not say you have the right to take them wherever, whenever. 

Much of what you said in that post made sense, and I agree with.  Just sayin'.

 

You can't carry your gun with you into a bar.

actually, in NC you can.  links found elsewhere in this thread.

Driving is a privilege. Not a right.

How do we know?  Because Jefferson did not encode "driving a car" in the BoR?  If so, then that is madness.  We are relying on a 240 year old document written by men long dead to tell us the limits of what our fellow citizens can do to us.

Similarly, how do we know there is a right to own guns?  That's not solipsism, though I understand it is scary.

Here is the problem I have with rights: they are an extension of morals.  And as such, they are subjective.  They are rooted in the culture from whence they came.  They only exist because we say they exist.[3]  I think today in the US, driving kind of is a right, mainly because it is a necessity in most places.  The problem is, we do not have an effective mechanism to adjust what our culture sees as rights.  So, while driving probably ought to be a right, and it is pretty much viewed as a right by most people, it has not been codified as a right. 

 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Have_Gun_%E2%80%93_Will_Travel
 2. that's kind of sarcasm. the activist part.
 3. conservatives are completely wrong when they say morals do not come from governement.  When the government is of/by/for the people, they absolutely do
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #446 on: November 19, 2013, 01:34:36 PM »
miles,  please keep it on topic. 
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #447 on: November 19, 2013, 05:05:08 PM »
Acknowledged.
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Offline zvuv

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Negligent Discharge.
« Reply #448 on: November 19, 2013, 06:47:55 PM »
There are a lot of idiots, drunks and mentally unstable people out there who shouldn't have guns but do.

However responsible gun owners follow the 4 Safety rules.

Always treat the gun as loaded unless you have just inspected it yourself.
Never point the muzzle at anything you care about.  Not even if you've just checked it.  Never ever.
Keep your trigger finger off the trigger at all times until you are ready to fire.
Be aware of your backstop, if you miss the target or penetrate it, where will the bullet land.

If you practice these religiously, to the point where you are uncomfortable pointing a water pistol at someone,  you are very unlikely to have a negligent discharge.  Your habits will protect you.

However, if you are around guns a lot,  you will almost certainly have one or two during your lifetime.  Even  experts,  law enforcement instructors,  almost everyone.  If you've followed the rule of keeping the muzzle pointed in a safe direction,  well you still  feel like shit, but there are no serious consequences.

There is some consolation in the fact that a large fraction of negligent discharges occur when the gun is being drawn or holstered  (trigger finger) and the owner rips himself a new asshole (muzzle).

Another  common accident, among people who are trying to be responsible, is handling a semi auto without a magazine and forgetting that there is a round in the chamber.  (treat as loaded)  Again, if the muzzle is pointed in a safe direction there will be no serious consequences.

The most serious, and tragic is when kids get a hold of a gun they find in the house. I found this article chilling:  http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/29/us/children-and-guns-the-hidden-toll.html?_r=0
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 06:50:03 PM by zvuv »
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #449 on: November 19, 2013, 08:08:32 PM »
Most cities do not allow the discharge of a weapon within their limits. I have seen people get arrested for "negligent" discharge.

My city doesn't allow discharge of firearms, either, which seems reasonable to me. A person firing a gun in self-defense of their person in their own home is not prohibited. Since the primary purpose of firearms, traditionally, and repeatedly told to us by the NRA, is for hunting. I don't think most citizens of most cities care to have people discharging firearms in crowded areas where more likely one will find humans rather than deer. Most citizens do not want firing ranges within their city boundaries, either, at least outdoor firing ranges -- all kinds of things can go wrong.

Of course, if you think the primary purpose of owning firearms is not for hunting animals to eat, then for what reason would you like to discharge your firearm within the city limits?


You can't carry your gun with you into federal buildings.

And neither can you carry knives, pepper spray or other personal defense/offense items like billy clubs or baseball bats, nor can you bring in your pets unless they are service animals trained to provide you assistance due to some disability. I think that means that the people who run the federal government want decorum and not chaos. Maybe they don't want accidents like bullets flying through the air or piles of feces on the floor.


You can't carry your gun with you into a bar.

Nor can you carry your open containers of legal beverages with you while you drive your car. I think the two equate to general safety for all concerned rather than being an affront to your desire to protect yourself in a bar from other patrons who may be armed drunks with two left hands and personal vendettas.

You can't just up and drive cross country with a gun in your car...etc. etc. etc. There are certain rules and regulations which go along with RESPONSIBLE  gun ownership.

There are plenty of people who operate vehicles which are not registered, tags expired, no insurance, bad emission control standards, faulty equipment...etc. etc. etc. 

And, as you point out, there are various rules and regulations regarding the responsible ownership and operation of a motor vehicle. I am unaware of massive numbers of people driving unregistered cars with no insurance. Certainly, some exist, but at least where I live the state puts a lot of teeth into the enforcement of the rules and regulations for vehicle ownership and operation. For example, the fines for a tagged vehicle that doesn't have insurance for a 30-day period are:

Maryland $150, Virginia $500, New York ($240), Texas ($350) (can't provide link because of assholishness of forum software), etc.

Don't want to pay the fine? That's okay. If you try to renew your registration/tags or your driver's license, you won't be able to. In fact, if you got pissed off with New York, didn't pay the $240 fine and fled to Alaska where True Liberties on The American FrontierTM exist, Alaska will refuse your attempt to get a driver's license (or renew an existing Alaska license that they gave you previously without knowing the skinny) when they look into the national driver database and see that New York has put the squeeze on your identity. Even 5 years later, you will likely have to trek back from Alaska to New York to settle up in motor court not only the fine that you failed to pay, but the fine for failing to pay the fine.

Do you see a lot of people driving cars without license plates? That's illegal and can result in a fine, suspension of privileges or confiscation of the motor vehicle. Don't like how your state is not enforcing it? That's a different matter entirely. Where I live, you won't get far down the road without a license plate on your car, and if you fail to meet the qualifications for renewal of your license plates the state police will be on the lookout for your vehicle and they will personally unscrew the plates to your car and take them back to headquarters.

Oh, did you go to college at Penn State and get caught by the police with an open container of legal beverage on the street once? Twice? Or did the police catch you at 19 drinking legal beverages at a party in an apartment because the noise got too loud and they came to calm down the party? Tsk, tsk. For up to 4 years You've Got a Friend in PennsylvaniaTM. Her name is Helen and she holds her finger on the computer button that marked you as ineligible for a driver's license -- even if you are not a Pennsylvania resident. You will be trying to schmooze Helen to get her to take that mark off your record, but trust me, Helen is a tough ole bird who disses you as being an irresponsible teenager, even when you are now 22!


Where are the fines for failure to register a firearm?
Where are the fines for failure to maintain the firearm?
Where are the fines for failure to restrict access to firearms to people without the license to use them?
Where are the fines for failure to periodically demonstrate competent use?
Where are the fines for failure to inform the state of medical incompetency?

Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot! There are no requirements for any of the above.

Do you have poor vision, poor motor skills, experience seizures or memory loss?

Driving is a privilege. Not a right.

Ask the local judge who just sentenced you for a felony if he thinks your ownership or use of a gun is a right or a privilege.

If the ownership and use of a gun is a personal right that shall not be infringed, then we should allow any inmate in a prison to have a gun if he/she wants one. Either limits can be placed on the right to do something or not.


Driving is a privilege. Not a right. Should someone with poor vision, poor motor skills, experience seizures or memory loss be restricted from voting? Should their right to privacy be revoked as well? Should someone who experiences seizures not be allowed to have an abortion?

You seem to be driving your car off the road and into a corn field.

I didn't compare the ownership or operation of a gun (or a vehicle) to that of voting, privacy or abortion.

But if you want to examine these things, okay ... the vote of an 88yo woman in a nursing home who has dementia can be contested. She likely didn't show up at the precinct on her own and filed by absentee ballot. Nobody but she can legally handle her ballot, and trust me, by the time she acts on her own to handle her ballot she will likely have written on it an order for eggs benedict for her breakfast, or some incomprehensible scribble. At that point, her ballot will not be honored for failure to follow directions. So, yeah, someone who has memory loss eventually becomes ineligible to vote.

Should whose right to privacy be revoked? Somebody with seizures or memory loss? I really don't get this question. With regard to the ownership and operation of a vehicle, the patient's physician is required to report any medical condition that would make it unlikely that the patient could safely operate a vehicle. That information goes to the state agency and stays there. Is that a violation of privacy? /shrugs/  Is your divorce filing private? No. Is your receipt of a driving violation private? No. Is the foreclosure on your home private? No. These are all public records in the state of Maryland, you can browse them here:

http://casesearch.courts.state.md.us/

The difference being Rights vs. Privileges. Rights should be treated equally across the land. If you are eligible to exercise your rights in Tennessee you should be able to exercise those same rights in California and everywhere in between. 

As shown in my previous responses, there have always been restrictions for the ownership and use of guns mostly because we agree that said ownership and use should be deemed responsible and not an absolute. Ergo, states can enact appropriate restrictions, just like they do for driving a vehicle. But again, the number of laws and regulations for the ownership and use of a firearm are quite sparse compared to the ownership and use of motor vehicles.


Is driving a First Amendment right? Is drinking alcohol a First Amendment right? Is yelling "FIRE!" in a crowded theater a First Amendment right? According to the courts, no. Aren't they examples of restrictions on the freedom of expression? Yes.


Responsible car owners and responsible gun owners are on the same par. It is 100% possible to purchase a vehicle without notifying the government of anything.

No, it is not possible. Even if you show up with a flatbed tow to snag that new car off the lot or that antique vehicle out of grandma's garage, you STILL have to notify the state that you purchased the car. What if you don't? All kinds of hell can descend upon you, but most importantly you have no proof that you are the owner of the vehicle. Oh, you have the previous title signed on the back and you have a bill of sale specifying that car was sold to you and the signatures are notarized? Great! You better report the sale to the state within 30 days or risk getting fined or confiscation of the vehicle.

All VIN numbers are registered somewhere by someone ...

Just like it is 100% possible to purchase a gun without notifying the government of anything. Where you take your chances is in how and where you choose to use the items you have purchased.

At least we agree on that.


... You can trace a list of all owners for a particular vehicle but you cannot trace all owners of a firearm.

I got nothing.

See, that's what I mean. This is why I asked the context of your assertion that firearms are more regulated than the vehicles and drivers. Firearms have nowhere near the amount of regulation as the privilege of driving.



Please explain to me the context of your assertion that vehicle ownership and operation is less prohibitive than the ownership and operation of firearms.

On a federal level....drivers licenses are issued by the state in which you live in. Yet, They are accepted in all states as long as your licence is current and valid.

Guns. Not so much. Gotta get special permission to carry them through certain states, even when you are just driving through.

Not to beat the horse again, but my daughter went through far more steps to achieve her drivers license than she would have to complete to purchase a firearm, or perhaps at 17, for me to legally gift one to her. There are no regulations whatsoever.

So, perhaps your freedom to drive is by virtue of the extraordinary regulations that exist almost equally in all states. The very thing the NRA despises -- national databases -- are the fuel for driving your car from New York to California.


There are definitely laws concerning the use of firearms in every single state of the union.

I never said there weren't any laws at all.

There may not be enough laws (in your opinion) about owning them ...

Correct

... but you cannot legally carry one or fire one anytime or anywhere you please.

And neither can you own or operate a motor vehicle at anytime and anywhere you please.


You can't just use them however you see fit. 

Same for cars.

However, I think you would have to agree at this point that the regulations for cars and drivers are far more extensive than for guns and gun owners.


Owning and using are two different things. Owning and driving are two different things. I can own one clump of metal which requires a license to operate and as long as I have the license and insurance and registration, I can use that clump of metal in all the states without getting extra special permission. However, if I just keep it in my garage and never drive it, I need no license or registration if I never use it.

Incorrect. All vehicles require titling and registration -- you may not have to purchase plates for them, but you do have to tell the state you have them. Just try selling your car without a title --- a title that the state gives you --- the buyer will be reluctant to recognize that you have valid ownership, mainly because you never notified the state agency of your ownership and you lack valid documents.


The other clump of metal, I do not have to have a license but if I happen to have it on my possession in the wrong place without proper authority, I become a convicted felon...whether I have used it or not.

One is a protected right guaranteed by my constitution...the other isn't.

As we have discussed, your right is not guaranteed. It is not unconditional. Just ask any inmate in a prison. An inmate who never owned or used a gun -- one who simply got caught selling pot on three occasions and ended up in prison for life. No firearm for Mr High.

Is your freedom to travel unconditional? Nope. Try leaving the United States without a passport -- you won't get far. If you manage to enter another country, try returning to the US without a passport and see what kind of hassle you encounter. Citizens have been denied reentry into the US for many months or years even when they have valid birth certificates in hand. Is the freedom to roam not a right, as well?



So, in summary, the regulations for use of vehicles are greater than those of firearms. But, you don't like that circumstance because you think you have a Second Amendment right to go anywhere, unconditionally, with your firearm, concealed or not?  Why not just say that instead of debating about the greater amount of regulations for firearms that just don't exist?

I would much rather debate on what the Second Amendment really means rather than adhering to out-of-date, out-of-sync Supreme Court decisions that make firearms more available to citizens than fireworks or health insurance.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #450 on: November 19, 2013, 08:29:09 PM »
I take a weapon with me when I drive  and when I go hiking in the woods.

I do both quite often, never felt the need for a gun. Why do you feel a gun is necessary for these two activities?


An important factor in discussing guns in civilian society is that it depends a great deal on local culture and the US is very heterogeneous.  What applies in NYC may not be relevant to the back woods of northern New Mexico where I live.

Which is why NYC has more regulations for firearms than New Mexico, but the NRA vehemently HATES that. The NRA thinks that every NYC resident should possess a firearm at all times. Why?


Just because you don't encounter violence in your area, doesn't mean that everybody else is equally secure.  There are about 10,000 homicides every year in the US (mostly committed with handguns).  This means that if you live in an area where the level of violence is below average, there are other regions where it is very high.  Compare NYC with Louisiana

I drive alone into West Baltimore often. Ever see the television show The Wire? It wasn't only about West Baltimore, it was filmed there. I've never felt the need for a gun. However, I do recall that wearing a white shirt and tie, having a buzzcut and driving a black 4-door American sedan with a yellow raincoat hanging in the back window ... caused every black man in West Baltimore to flee whenever I entered their neighborhoods. Self-protection is as much about appearance and attitude as it is about possessing a firearm that nobody can see. Took me a long time to figure out why nobody would answer their doors when I knocked.

Three people that I knew personally have been murdered here.  One was deliberately run down on the highway. Another was shot in the leg by an unseen shooter with a high power rifle.  He survived with a permanent limp but the passenger in his vehicle  was also shot and killed.    If you are a woman traveling alone and  break down on the highway at night or on a back road, you are in a very dangerous situation.

Why would someone shoot a high-powered rifle at a stranger? Just for kicks? If so, you have a problem of general lawlessness. Getting rundown by another car on the highway can happen anywhere. That is often the case in Russia.

My second cousin was shot to death in her workplace by her husband who entered the building with his shotgun and decided he didn't want her to exist any longer. My sister was a witness. This occurred in a state that is loaded with guns (no pun intended). Oh, and the husband possessed this firearm legally, but of course it wasn't registered, didn't have to be, and he didn't have to periodically prove that he was not mentally incapacitated -- though of course his defense attorney argued that very issue in court. He got out in 8 years for good behavior (justice was not served).


If you are hiking in the woods and you run across poachers you may be in serious trouble.

I grew up in a very wooded place where idiots poached deer, turkey and bears, frequently. The only fear that we had was that these idiots will mistake us for game. My brother used to be a DNR officer -- they never messed with him.


Then too, we have bear, cat and coyote here and if there has been a long drought, they get hungry and aggressive.   Not long ago a mountain came into my garage and took my cat.

Fair enough --- but you don't have to leave your property to use your firearm to defend yourself or your property from thieves or dangerous animals.


I have no objection to limiting the capacity of magazines but it's a waste of political capital.  With just a little practice a semi automatic weapon can be reloaded in under two seconds, about the length of time you might pause between shots to acquire a new target.  It's not worth fighting over.

Revolvers are lower capacity and slower to reload buuuut  here is Jerry Miculek firing 12 shots in 3 seconds out of a six shooter!

I think it all should be limited. I don't care how talented or inept the user might be.

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline zvuv

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #451 on: November 19, 2013, 09:21:32 PM »
I take a weapon with me when I drive  and when I go hiking in the woods.
I do both quite often, never felt the need for a gun. Why do you feel a gun is necessary for these two activities?


I explained this in that same post.






An important factor in discussing guns in civilian society is that it depends a great deal on local culture and the US is very heterogeneous.  What applies in NYC may not be relevant to the back woods of northern New Mexico where I live.

Which is why NYC has more regulations for firearms than New Mexico, but the NRA vehemently HATES that. The NRA thinks that every NYC resident should possess a firearm at all times. Why?

I carry no water for the NRA.  They can explain their own positions.




Three people that I knew personally have been murdered here.  One was deliberately run down on the highway. Another was shot in the leg by an unseen shooter with a high power rifle.  He survived with a permanent limp but the passenger in his vehicle  was also shot and killed.    If you are a woman traveling alone and  break down on the highway at night or on a back road, you are in a very dangerous situation.

Why would someone shoot a high-powered rifle at a stranger? Just for kicks? If so, you have a problem of general lawlessness. Getting rundown by another car on the highway can happen anywhere.

No one ever got to interview the shooter so all I have is speculation. It doesn't make sense to even ask this question unless it was rhetorical. I don't care why he was shot.  Point is, it's the sort of thing that happens here. This is a very rural area with considerable ethnic tension.  In addition a nearby town is a major staging point for drug traffic on its way north. 

My friend was murdered.  The driver had just run over his pregnant girl friend and when my friend stopped to help her, the driver turned around and ran him down.  It was quite deliberate.  The driver was convicted of murder. 

Yeah, we have a problem with lawlessness.  Duh!

If you are hiking in the woods and you run across poachers you may be in serious trouble.

I grew up in a very wooded place where idiots poached deer, turkey and bears, frequently. The only fear that we had was that these idiots will mistake us for game. My brother used to be a DNR officer -- they never messed with him.

People get murdered in the woods here.  It's especially dangerous if you happen across poachers.  My woods are not your woods.  Just because there is a forest in both places it does not mean the culture is the same. 


Then too, we have bear, cat and coyote here and if there has been a long drought, they get hungry and aggressive.   Not long ago a mountain came into my garage and took my cat.

Fair enough --- but you don't have to leave your property to use your firearm to defend yourself or your property from thieves or dangerous animals.

That cat, actually a mother and a juvenile, live in the canyon immediately behind the house.  There are more in the forests.  I would like to be able to leave my house on occasion  and perhaps even go for a hike.  I have in fact fired a shot in self defense to fend off an animal attack while hiking and I believe that had I not had a weapon with me,  I would have been badly hurt or killed.

This is a large country with a wide range of cultures and socio economic conditions,  it is rather parochial to extrapolate from  personal  experience in one area to  conditions in a  very different part of the country.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2013, 09:31:24 PM by zvuv »
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #452 on: November 19, 2013, 10:15:59 PM »
No one ever got to interview the shooter so all I have is speculation. It doesn't make sense to even ask this question unless it was rhetorical. I don't care why he was shot. 

Somebody getting shot with a high-powered rifle (from a distance greater than just across the street?), begs the question of why it happened in the first place. To disregard the cause of a crime is to disregard the prevention of it. Carrying a firearm will not prevent someone from shooting you with a high-powered rifle from 100, 200 or 300 yards away. That is not a death by chance.

Point is, it's the sort of thing that happens here. This is a very rural area with considerable ethnic tension.  In addition a nearby town is a major staging point for drug traffic on its way north.

I will cancel my plans to move to New Mexico.


My friend was murdered.  The driver had just run over his pregnant girl friend and when my friend stopped to help her, the driver turned around and ran him down.  It was quite deliberate.  The driver was convicted of murder.

Would a firearm have prevented this? Unless you are Mrs Smith shooting at 3 specially modified BMWs while traveling on a freeway at 80mph, I don't think a firearm would accomplish all that much against a vehicle in motion.


People get murdered in the woods here.  It's especially dangerous if you happen across poachers. 

But why? Do people get murdered in the woods because they are intentionally taken there for disposal?

Are poachers really drug dealers that just seem like poachers? I don't understand why a poacher would shoot a human except to mistake that human for game. Dismissing the reason for these incidents just fosters confusion and fear.


My woods are not your woods.  Just because there is a forest in both places it does not mean the culture is the same. 

Considering the gun/hunting culture that was ever-present where I grew up, I don't know why the outcomes would be tremendously different. The problem of drug-running must be the proximate cause of the issues you cite.


That cat, actually a mother and a juvenile, live in the canyon immediately behind the house.  There are more in the forests.  I would like to be able to leave my house on occasion  and perhaps even go for a hike.  I have in fact fired a shot in self defense to fend off an animal attack while hiking and I believe that had I not had a weapon with me,  I would have been badly hurt or killed.

Okay. Fine.


This is a large country with a wide range of cultures and socio economic conditions,  it is rather parochial to extrapolate from  personal  experience in one area to  conditions in a  very different part of the country.

"Culture", per se, is an overarching theme among the local residents. You are saying that New Mexico residents are generally lawless. I have to wonder whether the easy availability of firearms magnifies this problem rather than reducing it.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #453 on: November 20, 2013, 12:40:27 AM »
Responsible car owners and responsible gun owners are on the same par. It is 100% possible to purchase a vehicle without notifying the government of anything.

No, it is not possible.

I have lost the desire to argue any of the other finer points. And I didn't bother to read the rest of your post after this. I just want to say that you are flat fucking wrong about having to notify the government when you purchase a vehicle.

I can and have bought and sold vehicles between individual people. Yeah, we went through the motions of signing the title after the money was exchanged but after that either party could have ripped the title up and put the car in a garage and never registered it and no laws are broken unless we try to drive it down the road.

The government is not going to come knocking on our door asking us why neither of us registered the vehicle purchased/sold.

It simply doesn't happen.

Maybe I'll address the rest of your points tomorrow...but tonight...I'm not in the right frame of mind. I just want you to understand that you can buy a car from your neighbor or family member or complete stranger and never ever register the vehicle or report the purchase with the government.

As for my own registered vehicle. My tags expired in September. I still drive it roughly 50 miles everyday of the week.

How is that even possible considering how close an eye, you say, the government keeps on vehicles?

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #454 on: November 20, 2013, 01:50:09 AM »
Law breaker!

-Nam
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #455 on: November 20, 2013, 06:43:30 AM »
I can and have bought and sold vehicles between individual people. Yeah, we went through the motions of signing the title after the money was exchanged but after that either party could have ripped the title up and put the car in a garage and never registered it and no laws are broken unless we try to drive it down the road.

Then you don't own the car. A car title in your name is proof that you own the car, and the state is the one who gives you a title.

If you tear up the title for sale or otherwise lose it without getting a new one, or if you tear up the bill of sale or otherwise lose it (assuming one was even written), then you don't have any proof that you own the car. If you don't have proof that you own the car, you cannot title, register or use it. You would be in violation of the law of your state.

While a title can be "sold" a number of times to other individuals before reporting the sale(s) to the state, the only circumstance I know in which that can happen in excess of a 30-day period and still be legal is if you have a license from the state to be an automobile dealer.


The government is not going to come knocking on our door asking us why neither of us registered the vehicle purchased/sold.

It simply doesn't happen.

If the car is parked in your garage, unseen, unused, of course the government won't come after you. How many people buy cars, don't register them, park them in their garages and never use them? I'm not aware of any. Even my clients who like to collect cars, even Model Ts, get the titles transferred to their names so that they can prove they own the car even if the car sits untagged in a giant warehouse/museum.

I just want you to understand that you can buy a car from your neighbor or family member or complete stranger and never ever register the vehicle or report the purchase with the government.

I guess it is okay with you that you can buy cars, never title them, never use them and run the risk of not being the owner when you try to sell them?


As for my own registered vehicle. My tags expired in September. I still drive it roughly 50 miles everyday of the week.

How is that even possible considering how close an eye, you say, the government keeps on vehicles?

Mr Blackwell, I don't know where you live as it sounds like your state doesn't care at all about the ownership and operation of vehicles, which I find more than odd. I guess they don't care about collecting their taxes and fees for inspection, which is a whole lotta odd.

However, in all the states where I have lived the police watch for vehicles without plates or with expired plates. You will be pulled over, you will be checked out and you will be fined. The ability to drive around for a long time on non-existent/expired plates without being noticed is very rare -- we call that "lucky". Also, if the previous owner allows the insurance to lapse on a previously registered vehicle, the state starts contacting him to ask him all kinds of questions. I hope he has a copy of the bill of sale (unlikely one was completed on a private purchase) because the state is going to give him problems. Those license plates that he never removed from the car he sold? He will have to declare them stolen, which means that the car will be declared stolen. He can't prove that he sold the car, so he remains responsible for it until he can prove that it was sold or it was stolen.


So, you have a car or two in your garage, un-titled, un-registered, un-used? I don't see the point of that and I don't know anyone else who would see the point of that, either. But if that's what floats your boat go right ahead and keep doing it. That doesn't mean you are not in violation of state laws -- except, apparently, in your own state.


John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #456 on: November 20, 2013, 09:32:46 AM »
As for my own registered vehicle. My tags expired in September. I still drive it roughly 50 miles everyday of the week.

As the gun proponents like to say, criminals are going to break laws.  Nothing you can do about it except shrug your shoulders and arm yourself...
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Offline Jag

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #457 on: November 20, 2013, 10:30:12 AM »
Responsible car owners and responsible gun owners are on the same par. It is 100% possible to purchase a vehicle without notifying the government of anything.

No, it is not possible.

I have lost the desire to argue any of the other finer points.
We get that a lot here.
Quote
And I didn't bother to read the rest of your post after this.
It's obvious. Really, really obvious.
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I just want to say that you are flat fucking wrong about having to notify the government when you purchase a vehicle.
Where do you live?
Quote
I can and have bought and sold vehicles between individual people. Yeah, we went through the motions of signing the title after the money was exchanged but after that either party could have ripped the title up and put the car in a garage and never registered it and no laws are broken unless we try to drive it down the road.
Isn't the most common reason people buy cars to drive them? Have you ever taken the series of actions you describe - bought a car, didn't register it, shredded the documentation that proved ownership, and drove it anyway? How long did you do this without getting pulled over and ticketed? You could have ended up in jail for driving a stolen vehicle and you are not so stupid as to not know this. This whole line of defense for your position is ridiculous - there are tons if things that people CAN do that are illegal, most of us don't so them and I bet you don't either.
Quote
The government is not going to come knocking on our door asking us why neither of us registered the vehicle purchased/sold.

It simply doesn't happen.
No one but you is suggesting that it would. Try responding to what IS being said.
Quote
Maybe I'll address the rest of your points tomorrow...but tonight...I'm not in the right frame of mind.
Yeah, see above: we get that a lot here.
Quote
I just want you to understand that you can buy a car from your neighbor or family member or complete stranger and never ever register the vehicle or report the purchase with the government.
This is hilarious. You have no clue, but are prepared to explain it to Greybeard of all people.
Quote
As for my own registered vehicle. My tags expired in September. I still drive it roughly 50 miles everyday of the week.
According to you, you never needed to do this in the first place, so why did you bother spending the money on tabs? You're contradicting yourself.
Quote
How is that even possible considering how close an eye, you say, the government keeps on vehicles?
Good luck with that "not renewing my tabs" idea you've got going there. The police are government employees at a local level of government in most municipalities that I'm aware of - go ahead and explain the nonsense you've posted here to the first one to pull you over. In fact, film it and share it with us once it happens. I'd love to see the expression on the officer's face when you tell him you don't need to follow the law because.... why? I haven't actually been able to locate a rationale in the nonsense you've posted so far.

You're arguing bullshit for the sake of arguing bullshit, and not very well.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2013, 10:32:04 AM by Jag »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #458 on: November 20, 2013, 06:37:14 PM »
The parking lot outside where I work is shared between several business in the downtown area. One day, a young couple came inside asking if anyone drove that little black car parked outside because a van just side swiped it as it pulled out and kept driving. They wrote down the tag number.

Turns out, it was my co-worker's car that got clipped. So we called 911 non emergency and an officer showed up about 25 minutes later to take a report.

The young couple gave a description of the vehicle and the tag number and told them what they had seen.

The officer ran the number through his data base and it came up expired and the last vehicle it was registered to didn't match the description of the vehicle the young couple gave.

Officer said "sorry bout your luck" because there was nothing they could do.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #459 on: November 20, 2013, 08:15:15 PM »
^^^I don't understand the significance of that to the car registration vs gun laws discussion.....

Anyway, back to the point. If laws are cumbersome and don't make logical sense, then otherwise law-abiding people are less likely to follow them. The state by state laws about guns don't seem to make a lot of sense. What do the gun owners on the site think of having a basic national gun registration/license law, covering some set of weapons, requiring a certain amount of training and expertise, that would be valid in every state?

I would also like to see some insurance fee or surcharge to cover the cost to society of gun fails. It is not fair to charge responsible gun owners for the stupid actions of the stupid people, but that is what it means to live in a society. That is what insurance always does. You share the risk and the costs. More guns=more gun fails=more costs to everyone.
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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #460 on: November 20, 2013, 09:18:37 PM »
The parking lot outside where I work is shared between several business in the downtown area. One day, a young couple came inside asking if anyone drove that little black car parked outside because a van just side swiped it as it pulled out and kept driving. They wrote down the tag number.

Turns out, it was my co-worker's car that got clipped. So we called 911 non emergency and an officer showed up about 25 minutes later to take a report.

The young couple gave a description of the vehicle and the tag number and told them what they had seen.

The officer ran the number through his data base and it came up expired and the last vehicle it was registered to didn't match the description of the vehicle the young couple gave.

Officer said "sorry bout your luck" because there was nothing they could do.
So? What does this have to do with anything?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #461 on: November 21, 2013, 08:16:26 AM »
gunfail 44
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/11/19/1254692/-Responsible-gun-owners-are-safe-because-they-know-what-they-re-oops-BLAM-GunFAIL-XLIV

Quote
Another unusually active week in the categories of home invasion shootings (five) cop-involved GunFAILs (four), and hunting accidents (five). And there were three accidental discharges in retail stores this week, though one was in a gun shop, so that's either a little less of a surprise (since lots of people bring guns to gun shops) or perhaps more (since they're supposed to know what they're doing), depending on how you look at it. But I'm pretty sure gunfire at a Target store and a GNC are mostly unexpected. The second of those two incidents deserves special mention this week, since it took place in the context of an impromptu Second Amendment rights discussion. I might be assuming too much, but I'm guessing the discussion included a bit about being a law-abiding citizen and Responsible Gun OwnerTM, which makes it all the more surprising that the story ends, after the accidental discharge, with the perpetrator exclaiming that he "could not go down for this," before fleeing the store.

...continues
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #462 on: November 21, 2013, 06:37:51 PM »
The parking lot outside where I work is shared between several business in the downtown area. One day, a young couple came inside asking if anyone drove that little black car parked outside because a van just side swiped it as it pulled out and kept driving. They wrote down the tag number.

Turns out, it was my co-worker's car that got clipped. So we called 911 non emergency and an officer showed up about 25 minutes later to take a report.

The young couple gave a description of the vehicle and the tag number and told them what they had seen.

The officer ran the number through his data base and it came up expired and the last vehicle it was registered to didn't match the description of the vehicle the young couple gave.

Officer said "sorry bout your luck" because there was nothing they could do.
So? What does this have to do with anything?

No, it is not possible.

I don't understand why You or Chronos or anyone else can't imagine a world where people do not always follow the laws. Or why Chronos argues that it is not even possible to violate the law in the first place.

That is all.

It's an argument fail in my book because if it was not possible to break the law....we wouldn't have any fucking criminals.
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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #463 on: November 21, 2013, 06:58:33 PM »
It's a very convenient way of avoiding all the other stuff in his post that you want to pretend doesn't exist, isn't it?
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