Author Topic: Gun Fails  (Read 17444 times)

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Offline Nam

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #406 on: November 14, 2013, 12:45:48 AM »
Anyone hear about the Idaho gun fail? I heard it on Rachel Maddow tonight. This "Constitutional Republican" just got elected to the State Congress in Idaho. Apparently he was arrested twice for rape (in Florida, I believe), he got off on one but plead guilty to another (assault with the attempt to rape). So, he moves to Idaho falsely registers for a gun (2007/2012) and when people find out he lied about the felony he had the Sheriff takes away his gun but then has to give it back because in Idaho any elected official doesn't have to obey the law when in concern to guns.

So, Idaho has a State Rep. Who is a felon of rape, which he was charged twice for, found guilty of one who because of Idaho's backwater laws gets to own a gun.

And people say Florida sucks. Seems today Idaho sucks. The kicker to that is, they don't seem to care. The future of the Republican party!

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #407 on: November 14, 2013, 09:24:09 AM »
So, Idaho has a State Rep. Who is a felon of rape, which he was charged twice for, found pled guilty of one who because of Idaho's backwater laws gets to own a gun.

A small but important correction. The fact that he pled guilty, even if pleading guilty was to get a lesser sentence, means that he acknowledged the crime rather than maintaining that he was never guilty of it but a jury decided differently. While that in and of itself is a minor difference, it just adds more reason for being against his possession of a firearm.

And, yes, I saw this on Maddow last night, as well, and as I was watching it I remembered that Idaho is the state that gives non-residents conceal carry permits after "qualifying" for the permit at an approved site. There was a story in the Baltimore news  about how a Marylander can get a conceal carry permit in Idaho, even though the Marylander has no ties to Idaho at all and may have never visited Idaho, by going to the approved site which is a gun shop in Glen Burnie.

Anyway, I am pretty sure it's Idaho that does this. I don't think it was Utah, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Utah.


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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #408 on: November 14, 2013, 04:31:37 PM »
Idaho is the state that gives non-residents conceal carry permits after "qualifying" for the permit at an approved site. There was a story in the Baltimore news  about how a Marylander can get a conceal carry permit in Idaho, even though the Marylander has no ties to Idaho at all and may have never visited Idaho, by going to the approved site which is a gun shop in Glen Burnie.

Anyway, I am pretty sure it's Idaho that does this. I don't think it was Utah, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was Utah.

There are quite a few states that issue carry permits to non-residents.  I myself, as a Maryland resident, have had licenses from New Hampshire, Florida, and Virginia.  Idaho and Utah also issue such licenses.  (By the way, Maryland does as well, although since Maryland is a may-issue state, your application will probably be denied whether you're a resident or not.)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #409 on: November 14, 2013, 04:32:31 PM »
Remember, the real west was not as wild and crazy as this sh!t. Can you imagine a guy confessing to rape and getting elected to public office and being given a gun in any civilized country :o

Un-frikken-believeable. We are so toast. And we have the nerve to go to other countries and tell people how to live.:P

The sooner the Chinese show up, take over, and start running things, the better. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #410 on: November 14, 2013, 08:45:06 PM »
There are quite a few states that issue carry permits to non-residents.  I myself, as a Maryland resident, have had licenses from New Hampshire, Florida, and Virginia.  Idaho and Utah also issue such licenses.  (By the way, Maryland does as well, although since Maryland is a may-issue state, your application will probably be denied whether you're a resident or not.)

Yet, you are not legally allowed to possess drivers licenses in more than one state.

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Offline shnozzola

Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #411 on: November 14, 2013, 09:36:25 PM »
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #412 on: November 15, 2013, 07:53:40 AM »
There are quite a few states that issue carry permits to non-residents.  I myself, as a Maryland resident, have had licenses from New Hampshire, Florida, and Virginia.  Idaho and Utah also issue such licenses.  (By the way, Maryland does as well, although since Maryland is a may-issue state, your application will probably be denied whether you're a resident or not.)

Yet, you are not legally allowed to possess drivers licenses in more than one state.

That's because you don't need more than one driver's license.  Your driver's license is automatically valid in all fifty states.  That's not even remotely true for handgun carry licenses.  If, for example, I wanted to be able to carry in West Virginia, I wouldn't be able to do so with a Maryland license (even if I were able to get one, which I can't, because Maryland turns down almost everyone) and West Virginia doesn't issue licenses to non-residents.  However, if I get a Virginia non-resident license, I can use that to carry in West Virginia.  It's a crazy patchwork quilt that drives gun owners bats.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline zvuv

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #413 on: November 15, 2013, 04:10:16 PM »
Many states have reciprocity agreements so that in effect a permit issued by one state may license you to carry in several other states.  Here in NM people often get a Utah permit,  yes they issue to non residents,  which  brings a lot of other states with it.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #414 on: November 15, 2013, 05:46:38 PM »
There has to be a national database, and there have to be nationwide laws. If someone commits a gun fail that results in serious injury or death, they should never get to carry a gun again. In any state.

Buh-bye Dick Cheney's gun rights. He is the poster boy for privileged drunken gun fail who never served a minute of time in police custody after shooting a 78 year old man in the face, neck and chest with lead shot. Famously, the man who got shot apologized for getting his face in front of Cheney's gun. To date, Cheney has never apologized.  :P >:(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline zvuv

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #415 on: November 15, 2013, 10:39:22 PM »
If you buy a new gun or a used gun from out of state,  ownership must be registered and transferred by someone with a Federal Firearms License.  The transfer must be approved by the ATF who will do a background check on the buyer.  A felony,  a record of domestic violence, a firearm violation,  will result in rejection.  It is hard for a criminal to buy a gun this way,  though of course it does happen some.

But in most states there is no control of private sales, unless the gun is being shipped.  I just bought a couple of pistols off my shooting buddy.  Gave him a check, picked up the guns and took them home.  It's easy enough to find classified ads in your state, meet the owner and buy a gun with no official notice.   To compound this,  many gun owners,  preppers etc, are extremely suspicious of any kind of govt involvement and are happy to transfer a firearm without any registration.

The NYTimes did a "sting"  offering guns for sale through classified ads.  A surprising number of felons showed up,  and  most of them admitted to having an arsenal of weapons.

There are similarly strict rules when applying for a Carry Permit  CCW.  In NM as in many states,  there is two days mandatory training and the permit can take 3 months to come through.   But,  that's only needed to carry a concealed weapon in public.  On private property,  in your vehicle or worn openly on your belt no permission is needed from the state.

I know several "law abiding citizens"  who carry concealed without a permit,  figuring,  they are very unlikely to get searched and if they do have to use it,  a weapons violation is small potatoes compared to what's at stake.  A surprising number of women do this.

Even with a permit, one is not allowed to bring a weapon into a post office, a school, a bar and various other federal buildings.   Every permit holder, including instructors for the police force, that I know routinely ignores this.

The permit allows only one concealed weapon,  many carry a backup gun anyway.   The permit forbids carrying a gun in .22lr caliber.  Most of the backup guns are in that caliber.  .22lr is also a favorite with the women.  The guns are small, inexpensive and easy to shoot.

To compound this,  many people carry significant amounts of ammo which I consider absurd.  The rule of thumb for civilian encounters is 3 3 3.   They happen within 3 yards,  last no more than 3 seconds and fire no more than 3 shots  (typically more misses than hits)..

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #416 on: November 16, 2013, 12:36:47 AM »
^^^^Thank you for this. You sound like you know your stuff.

My experience around guns included growing up with grandfather's never-fired shotgun by the door. There were also the random crazy ex-military relatives with the handgun hidden somewhere in the house.  :o

As an adult I knew many young urban men with virtually no training, packing illegally for self-defense from crime or gangs. Most of the time the weapons were never fired, and when they were, it was almost always a gun fail, accidental discharge or the wrong person was hit.

When I was a social worker in the crack-ravaged 1980's, bystander shootings of kids were so common. They never made the national news the way random school shootings do today.  :(

In the 90's, shots were fired in my Oakland neighborhood on a regular basis. An architect moved out when a bullet came through a wall and just missed him in his house. A guy was shot in the leg in my front yard, another killed in my back yard and another killed in the building next door. My husband and I ran through gunfire more than once. :o

I have never understood the idea that more guns make a community safer.  :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #417 on: November 16, 2013, 09:26:31 AM »
There are quite a few states that issue carry permits to non-residents.  I myself, as a Maryland resident, have had licenses from New Hampshire, Florida, and Virginia.  Idaho and Utah also issue such licenses.  (By the way, Maryland does as well, although since Maryland is a may-issue state, your application will probably be denied whether you're a resident or not.)

Yet, you are not legally allowed to possess drivers licenses in more than one state.

That's because you don't need more than one driver's license.  Your driver's license is automatically valid in all fifty states.  That's not even remotely true for handgun carry licenses.  If, for example, I wanted to be able to carry in West Virginia, I wouldn't be able to do so with a Maryland license (even if I were able to get one, which I can't, because Maryland turns down almost everyone) and West Virginia doesn't issue licenses to non-residents.  However, if I get a Virginia non-resident license, I can use that to carry in West Virginia.  It's a crazy patchwork quilt that drives gun owners bats.

In fact, expanding on this, if may, I'd like to offer a little thought experiment.

You're planning a cross-country road trip from Baltimore to Los Angeles, and you would like to be able to carry your sidearm with you on this trip.  For planning purposes as far as driving goes, all you need to do is make sure that your Maryland driver's license (which you probably already have anyway) is current.  For carrying your handgun, though…?

Here is a list of the states that you will need to travel thru, in order, according to Google Maps:  Maryland, Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio, Indiana, Missouri, Oklahoma[1], Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and finally California.

Now, using the various tools available to you at http://www.handgunlaw.us , please determine which of the various licenses and permits you will need to acquire to carry your handgun for your entire trip.  Be sure to read all of the caveats involved regarding things like whether any particular state will accept a non-resident license from a third state[2].

Once you've determined all of the various permits and licenses you'll need, contact the appropriate licensing agency in each pertinent state to confirm that the information at the HandgunLaw site is accurate, and once you've done that, ask them to send you all the information and forms and everything that you'll need to complete.  Each state's requirements will vary quite a bit, so be sure to examine the documentation thoroughly -- some states will require fingerprints, for example, while others won't, and some will not allow you to apply by mail, in which case you'll have to figure out how to handle that.  Most states will require their applications to be notarized, and there will be various fees and so forth on top of all of this.  Send in all the various forms and everything, then sit back and wait -- getting all of your licenses and permits is probably going to take over three months even if nothing goes wrong.

Now.  Do you still wonder why people want -- indeed, need -- to apply for carry licenses from several different states?  (Don't say "I'll travel without my handgun".  No doubt that's true, but that's not the point of this exercise.)
 1. missing Kansas by only about 1,000 feet, by the way, so be careful not to cross the border unless you're prepared for that as well
 2. Michigan, for example, will accept a Florida license only if you live in Florida.  Fortunately, you're not traveling thru Michigan, so that state need not concern you, but you'll need to check for the same kind of potential problem for the states you are traveling thru
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #418 on: November 16, 2013, 11:27:37 PM »
How about a basic national gun permit law? There is already the 2nd amendment, which is national. You could have some "basic" national firearms-- say three types of handguns and five types of hunting rifles or shotguns, that would be allowed in every state with the national permit. Then individual states, counties, cities could allow or ban whatever falls outside of the basics.

If Texas and Florida decide that anyone over the age of 10 should be able to carry a bazooka into a bar and a rocket launcher into a preschool, more power to them. And good luck getting any wealthy tourists or sane people to come there. (And make sure people who want out get to leave those crazy-a$$ states!)

I suppose that would entail a knock down drag out media battle with stupidity ruling the day, like with national health care, national education standards, national environmental policy and just about everything else that might make some sense.

I realize the benefits of a federal system of government, but there are times when I wish we had fewer states, like Canada's provinces. Maybe there could be ten regions and we could at least have only ten battles for rational gun permits, education standards, health care, gay rights and other laws instead of having to make sense of fifty different sets of laws that change every 2-4 years....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #419 on: November 18, 2013, 12:31:10 PM »
How about a basic national gun permit law? There is already the 2nd amendment, which is national. You could have some "basic" national firearms-- say three types of handguns and five types of hunting rifles or shotguns, that would be allowed in every state with the national permit. Then individual states, counties, cities could allow or ban whatever falls outside of the basics.

I like this.  Ok let me put in my vote for the choice of weapons.  Anything less powerful than or equal to Semi auto handgun with 17 round magazine, any shoulder fired semi auto rifle with a 30 round magazine or less powerful, any 10 gauge or less shotgun with a magazine capacity of 10 or less.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #420 on: November 18, 2013, 04:40:30 PM »
Now.  Do you still wonder why people want -- indeed, need -- to apply for carry licenses from several different states?  (Don't say "I'll travel without my handgun".  No doubt that's true, but that's not the point of this exercise.)

But that sort of is the point.  What kind of insecure sociopath cannot take a drive without his gun within convenient reach?  What terrors does he imagine await him out on the freeways of the nation?  Millions of people drive every single day without the aid of additional weaponry, and against all odds, virtually none of them need a weapon to do it.  Just leave the guns at home, fer chrissakes.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #421 on: November 18, 2013, 05:15:43 PM »
Now.  Do you still wonder why people want -- indeed, need -- to apply for carry licenses from several different states?  (Don't say "I'll travel without my handgun".  No doubt that's true, but that's not the point of this exercise.)

But that sort of is the point.  What kind of insecure sociopath cannot take a drive without his gun within convenient reach?  What terrors does he imagine await him out on the freeways of the nation?  Millions of people drive every single day without the aid of additional weaponry, and against all odds, virtually none of them need a weapon to do it.  Just leave the guns at home, fer chrissakes.

That is a hopeless position, although I agree with it. Most of the billions of people on the planet survive quite well without packing firearms with them to the store and to work. Having a gun does not make people safer in most modern industrial urban environments. Home invasions, workplace shootings and personal crime by strangers are statistically very rare in the US, and even more rare in Europe and Japan. [1]

But risk assessment is one of things that human beings are really lousy at. Fact is, there are millions of Americans who think they need guns, and want to own them. The present laws are a patchwork of illogical nonsense that encourage people to disregard them. I would rather have some rational gun laws that make sense than try to argue American out of their guns. And I would rather people who own guns know how to use them properly to reduce the gun fails. In that sense, I think we should treat guns the way we should treat alcohol, drugs and prostitution-- assume some people will indulge no matter what, and figure out how to reduce the harm.
 1. However, if I lived in Sao Paulo, Manila,  Johannesburg or Mexico City where stranger crime, kidnappings and gangland mayhem are rampant, I might be more inclined to own a firearm and to know how to use it properly.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #422 on: November 18, 2013, 05:51:10 PM »
Now.  Do you still wonder why people want -- indeed, need -- to apply for carry licenses from several different states?  (Don't say "I'll travel without my handgun".  No doubt that's true, but that's not the point of this exercise.)

But that sort of is the point.

No, it is not the point.  Go thru the exercise as indicated, then ask yourself how you would feel if you had to deal with the same thing with regard to your driver's license.  You'd be outraged.

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Just leave the guns at home, fer chrissakes.

And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #423 on: November 18, 2013, 05:57:58 PM »
And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

Or just stay put in your own state...unless you have "official" business.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #424 on: November 18, 2013, 06:55:59 PM »
And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

You can drive on a cross-country trip without a gun.  You cannot drive on a cross-country trip without a car.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #425 on: November 18, 2013, 07:05:25 PM »
And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

You can drive on a cross-country trip without a gun.  You cannot drive on a cross-country trip without a car.

Still not the point, sparky.
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #426 on: November 18, 2013, 07:05:38 PM »
I apologize if this was already covered but... 3D plastic guns are now old school printing technology.

Welcome to the first 3D printed metal gun that was capable of firing 50 rounds designed and manufactured (printed) by Solid Concepts located in........Texas.

http://mashable.com/2013/11/11/3d-printed-metal-gun/
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #427 on: November 18, 2013, 07:12:04 PM »
I apologize if this was already covered but... 3D plastic guns are now old school printing technology.

Welcome to the first 3D printed metal gun that was capable of firing 50 rounds designed and manufactured (printed) by Solid Concepts located in........Texas.

http://mashable.com/2013/11/11/3d-printed-metal-gun/

Right, I was reading about that the other day.  It's going to be a while before this has any kind of a practical impact on the gun control issue because the printer involved in creating that gun (the metal one, not the plastic one) is currently far too expensive to pose any kind of a problem.  The day will likely come, however, and when it does, it's probably going to be a mess.  In contemporary times, the law always lags far behind technology.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #428 on: November 18, 2013, 07:18:02 PM »
And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

You can drive on a cross-country trip without a gun.  You cannot drive on a cross-country trip without a car.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #429 on: November 18, 2013, 08:37:14 PM »
Greyhound

Last I checked, Greyhound doesn't let you drive the bus.  Or was this not meant to actually address what I said in my post?

Pianodwarf, why did you +1 such a stupid post?

EDIT:  Also, taking the bus would increase the cost of the trip, and restrict the times and locations one could go to.  This is not true of leaving the gun at home.  The whole analogy is retarded.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 08:42:01 PM by Azdgari »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #430 on: November 18, 2013, 10:20:52 PM »
Owning and driving your own vehicle across state lines is not a protected right under the constitution. It is a privilege granted so long as you follow the rules of the road and the rules for owning and operating a vehicle.

Owning and using your own gun IS a protected right under the constitution. There are certain rules and regulations which go along with responsible gun ownership.

The rules for owning and operating a car are far less prohibitive and complicated than owning a gun.

The standard for using your privilege to drive cross country does not involve getting permission or paying extra fees to the individual states across which you may travel.

However, you do not have the same universal RIGHT to have a gun in different locations across the very same land if you are just passing through.

Greyhound

Last I checked, Greyhound doesn't let you drive the bus.  Or was this not meant to actually address what I said in my post?

Pianodwarf, why did you +1 such a stupid post?

EDIT:  Also, taking the bus would increase the cost of the trip, and restrict the times and locations one could go to.  This is not true of leaving the gun at home.  The whole analogy is retarded.

Driving a car is not a protected right...yet it is easier to do that in all 48 contiguous states than it is to exercise your rights in all the states.

What difference does it make if taking the Greyhound is more expensive or restricts your convenience? We don't have the right to drive our cars whenever and wherever we please. If we need to get somewhere we can rely on public transportation or commercial transportation.

The analogy doesn't fail. Just your willingness to accept it. 

You don't need a car to travel cross country. Most people don't need a car period. And young people are starting to realize this fact.

Your "Edit" highlights the argument that taking a Greyhound complicates things and makes it more expensive for people. All the different state laws concerning guns complicate things and make it more expensive for responsible gun owners.


If I wanted to give my brother a shotgun for Christmas but he live two states away from me, what is the easiest and least expensive way to get it to him legally?


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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #431 on: November 18, 2013, 10:28:13 PM »
Now.  Do you still wonder why people want -- indeed, need -- to apply for carry licenses from several different states?  (Don't say "I'll travel without my handgun".  No doubt that's true, but that's not the point of this exercise.)

But that sort of is the point.  What kind of insecure sociopath cannot take a drive without his gun within convenient reach?  What terrors does he imagine await him out on the freeways of the nation? 

I do agree that I don't understand the necessity of carrying a gun while driving across the United States. When I was a kid, my family drove across the United States, from Washington DC to Los Angeles CA and there were no guns involved. We didn't feel threatened at all. This was during the oil crisis and we had our gas tank siphoned by thieves in Little Rock AR while we were asleep in our hotel (at least the thieves left us enough gas to get to a gas station).

The idea of carrying a gun with you on a drive across the United States caters to innate fears of ... ? ... things seen in movies?


No, it is not the point.  Go thru the exercise as indicated, then ask yourself how you would feel if you had to deal with the same thing with regard to your driver's license.  You'd be outraged.

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Just leave the guns at home, fer chrissakes.

And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

First, a drivers license is given to you for passing certain exams and it is maintained by monitoring of activity by police for moving violations or accidents, and it is kept by maintaining a good driving record. Depending on my age or medical conditions (for which significant medical conditions must be reported to the state administration for drivers), I may be required to pass additional exams, and I may be restricted in my use of a drivers license or I may have it revoked. As I have stated before, the qualifications for obtaining and maintaining a drivers license are far more strict than firearms.



According to the information at the CDC, the rate of deaths from cars versus firearms is relatively the same, but certainly the qualifications to obtain firearms are not, and the qualifications for a carry permit are less, as well (at least in most states). This doesn't even compare the requirements for qualifying the cars that are driven (safety inspection, emissions inspection, registration), as well.

Second, I am well aware of varying levels of restrictions on activities that one can or cannot do in another state. I hold various insurance licenses and securities licenses. I cannot conduct business in another state even though I am licensed in my home state. In certain circumstances, I can obtain licenses in other states (and I have), but I must follow all the requirements for obtaining those licenses (sometimes testing, mostly paperwork and definitely fees), and I must follow the requirements for renewing those licenses (continuing education, appointments from sponsoring insurance companies, etc.). I must sign forms attesting that I have not been charged (much less convicted) of a felony, and that I have no pending warrants, sanctions, levies, judgments, penalties, etc.

The laws and regulations of the insurance business are governed by each individual state, as well as coverages, requirements, notifications to customers, etc. Why do I have to obtain licenses for each state? Why not have a federal insurance license so that I can operate in every state, automatically? Yet, this is exactly how the business works. I do this for a living -- to put food on my table. I don't know of many people using guns to put food on the table (2013 compared to 1880, there are relatively few, out there, somewhere). If my client moves to California, Wisconsin or Texas, for example, I can't remain their agent, but if I wanted to remain as their agent I would have to jump through a number of hoops (and pay a number of fees periodically).

Furthermore, to obtain certain insurance licenses and all securities licenses, one has to go through fingerprinting and an FBI background check. I am subject to a new FBI background check at any time. I go through all of this to earn a living. I don't have to travel outside of my county and I go through this.

How many gun owners have their fingerprints on file with the FBI? How many gun owners have gone through an FBI background check? How many firearms sales are monitored by the state or federal government? How may firearms can be traced to a particular owner compared to vehicles?

While I can understand the requirements you endure for wanting to carry a firearm across the United States, I cannot sympathize with you. If I have to do more to justify my ability to continue in my career than the average gun owner to buy or possess a firearm, I cannot sympathize with the complaints.

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Offline Chronos

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #432 on: November 18, 2013, 10:59:57 PM »
Owning and driving your own vehicle across state lines is not a protected right under the constitution. It is a privilege granted so long as you follow the rules of the road and the rules for owning and operating a vehicle.

And that is reasonable.


Owning and using your own gun IS a protected right under the constitution. There are certain rules and regulations which go along with responsible gun ownership.

Being a convicted felon or a person judged by a court as psychologically incapable, yes. That's about it as far as I can tell.

Do you have poor vision, poor motor skills, experience seizures or memory loss? A letter from your physician to the local state agency can cause your drivers license to be suspended or revoked. Does the physician do the same for a firearm? Is the physician required to?  Nope.  A person with poor vision, poor motor skills, seizures or memory loss should also be restricted in the use of firearms -- but they aren't.


The rules for owning and operating a car are far less prohibitive and complicated than owning a gun.

That is demonstrably untrue, starting with my immediately reply above. The regulations for the design, manufacture and maintenance of vehicles are extensive, and the government can require recalls of defective vehicles and drivers. In fact, because vehicles are registered with the state, each manufacturer knows who owns each car and the recall notice can be sent directly to you, the owner, to act upon the notice as a responsible vehicle owner.

You can buy a gun without the government approving the purchase, much less being aware. Try to buy a car and operate it without the government being aware -- you won't be flying under the radar for very long.


The standard for using your privilege to drive cross country does not involve getting permission or paying extra fees to the individual states across which you may travel.

Duplicating effort in governing the use of vehicles is pointless. That's because the government has already monitored the manufacture, sale/purchase, inspection/maintenance and operation of vehicles, as well as the people who operate them. There is a national database of VINs to track where particular cars are registered and who owns them. You can trace a list of previous drivers licenses. In fact, there is a national driver database accessed by all states that can allow one state to notify all other states that this one state thinks you shouldn't be able to driver any longer, and let me tell you something solid -- your state will take notice of an entry in the national driver database and restrict or revoke your drivers license. The same cannot be said for the purchase, maintenance or operation of firearms. You can trace a list of all owners for a particular vehicle but you cannot trace all owners of a firearm.

Please explain to me the context of your assertion that vehicle ownership and operation is less prohibitive than the ownership and operation of firearms.


However, you do not have the same universal RIGHT to have a gun in different locations across the very same land if you are just passing through.

Perhaps because the laws and regulations for the purchase, possession and operation of firearms are inconsistent if not at times absent.


« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 11:17:20 PM by Chronos »
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #433 on: November 19, 2013, 12:43:36 AM »
Owning and using your own gun IS a protected right under the constitution. There are certain rules and regulations which go along with responsible gun ownership.

Being a convicted felon or a person judged by a court as psychologically incapable, yes. That's about it as far as I can tell.

Most cities do not allow the discharge of a weapon within their limits. I have seen people get arrested for "negligent" discharge. You can't carry your gun with you into federal buildings. You can't carry your gun with you into a bar. You can't just up and drive cross country with a gun in your car...etc. etc. etc. There are certain rules and regulations which go along with RESPONSIBLE  gun ownership.

There are plenty of people who operate vehicles which are not registered, tags expired, no insurance, bad emission control standards, faulty equipment...etc. etc. etc. 

Do you have poor vision, poor motor skills, experience seizures or memory loss?

Driving is a privilege. Not a right.

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A letter from your physician to the local state agency can cause your drivers license to be suspended or revoked. Does the physician do the same for a firearm? Is the physician required to?  Nope.  A person with poor vision, poor motor skills, seizures or memory loss should also be restricted in the use of firearms -- but they aren't.

Driving is a privilege. Not a right. Should someone with poor vision, poor motor skills, experience seizures or memory loss be restricted from voting? Should their right to privacy be revoked as well? Should someone who experiences seizures not be allowed to have an abortion?

The difference being Rights vs. Privileges. Rights should be treated equally across the land. If you are eligible to exercise your rights in Tennessee you should be able to exercise those same rights in California and everywhere in between. 

The rules for owning and operating a car are far less prohibitive and complicated than owning a gun.

That is demonstrably untrue, starting with my immediately reply above. The regulations for the design, manufacture and maintenance of vehicles are extensive, and the government can require recalls of defective vehicles and drivers. In fact, because vehicles are registered with the state, each manufacturer knows who owns each car and the recall notice can be sent directly to you, the owner, to act upon the notice as a responsible vehicle owner.

You can buy a gun without the government approving the purchase, much less being aware. Try to buy a car and operate it without the government being aware -- you won't be flying under the radar for very long.

Responsible car owners and responsible gun owners are on the same par. It is 100% possible to purchase a vehicle without notifying the government of anything. Just like it is 100% possible to purchase a gun without notifying the government of anything. Where you take your chances is in how and where you choose to use the items you have purchased.


The standard for using your privilege to drive cross country does not involve getting permission or paying extra fees to the individual states across which you may travel.

Duplicating effort in governing the use of vehicles is pointless. That's because the government has already monitored the manufacture, sale/purchase, inspection/maintenance and operation of vehicles, as well as the people who operate them. There is a national database of VINs to track where particular cars are registered and who owns them. You can trace a list of previous drivers licenses. In fact, there is a national driver database accessed by all states that can allow one state to notify all other states that this one state thinks you shouldn't be able to driver any longer, and let me tell you something solid -- your state will take notice of an entry in the national driver database and restrict or revoke your drivers license. The same cannot be said for the purchase, maintenance or operation of firearms. You can trace a list of all owners for a particular vehicle but you cannot trace all owners of a firearm.

I got nothing.

Please explain to me the context of your assertion that vehicle ownership and operation is less prohibitive than the ownership and operation of firearms.

On a federal level....drivers licenses are issued by the state in which you live in. Yet, They are accepted in all states as long as your licence is current and valid.

Guns. Not so much. Gotta get special permission to carry them through certain states, even when you are just driving through.


However, you do not have the same universal RIGHT to have a gun in different locations across the very same land if you are just passing through.

Perhaps because the laws and regulations for the purchase, possession and operation of firearms are inconsistent if not at times absent.

There are definitely laws concerning the use of firearms in every single state of the union. There may not be enough laws (in your opinion) about owning them but you cannot legally carry one or fire one anytime or anywhere you please. You can't just use them however you see fit.  Owning and using are two different things. Owning and driving are two different things. I can own one clump of metal which requires a license to operate and as long as I have the license and insurance and registration, I can use that clump of metal in all the states without getting extra special permission. However, if I just keep it in my garage and never drive it, I need no license or registration if I never use it.

The other clump of metal, I do not have to have a license but if I happen to have it on my possession in the wrong place without proper authority, I become a convicted felon...whether I have used it or not.

One is a protected right guaranteed by my constitution...the other isn't. 
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Gun Fails
« Reply #434 on: November 19, 2013, 01:02:54 AM »
Driving a car is not a protected right...yet it is easier to do that in all 48 contiguous states than it is to exercise your rights in all the states.

Organizing a street-blocking protest is also a protected right, and it takes more legal hassle than buying a car, too.  There are good reasons for that.

Have you wondered why you consider the right to hold a gun to be more important than the privilege of owning[1] a vehicle?

What difference does it make if taking the Greyhound is more expensive or restricts your convenience? We don't have the right to drive our cars whenever and wherever we please. If we need to get somewhere we can rely on public transportation or commercial transportation.

The analogy was based on personal reactions, not on rights vs privileges.  Quoted from Pianodwarf:
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And if the situation were the same with driver's licenses, and someone told you to "just don't drive a car, fer chrissakes", how would you react?  (Please be honest, and please don't dodge the question.)

Read the post for context.

The analogy doesn't fail. Just your willingness to accept it.


Any religious nutjob can claim that about any analogy they use.  You saying it here is no different.  "You're just being closed-minded!  Open your heart!"

You don't need a car to travel cross country. Most people don't need a car period. And young people are starting to realize this fact.

You do need some sort of vehicle to travel cross-country.  I suppose to keep it analogous, one could always hire an assassin or armed bodyguard in a new state instead of carrying one's own firearms, too.  A matter of convenience.

Your "Edit" highlights the argument that taking a Greyhound complicates things and makes it more expensive for people. All the different state laws concerning guns complicate things and make it more expensive for responsible gun owners.

You've...never actually done both a bus-based road trip and a car-based road trip, in real life, have you?

If I wanted to give my brother a shotgun for Christmas but he live two states away from me, what is the easiest and least expensive way to get it to him legally?

Assuming he's legally capable of acquiring such firearms, semd him a gift certificate to GunMart or whatever store carries it.  That way he can purchase it himself and you've avoided an unnecessary transfer of dangerous materials across states.
 1. You said "driving" a vehicle - which would not be analogous to owning a gun, but to shooting a gun.  Owning vs owning, using vs using.
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