Author Topic: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?  (Read 1917 times)

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Offline kindred

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2013, 12:12:19 AM »
The human brain functions on delusion so deconversion might be bad for you. Heck, I'd even go so far as to say atheism might be a mental illness. Things are much easier to deal with if you can always console yourself with the bullshit religion has to offer.
I thought I had a pessimistic view of humanity...

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The human brain has needs that reality cannot meet, ever. Everybody thinks they're above average even though that is statistically impossible. Every asshole thinks they're nice, every below average person thinks they're normal etc. Taking away  religion would mean taking away one of the easiest and most efficient ways to meet the mental needs of people.
This claim of "most efficient" completely disregards any of the potential negative consequences of magical thinking.  It's like claiming the incredible efficiency of the output of my 7500W power supply all the while ignoring the 1.21 gigawatts of juice I dissipate into the room in order to achieve that.

The big problem humans have as a whole is that we don't have a better alternative. Sure there are some of us that are atheists and live life without too big of a problem but too many social institutions that provide services needed hinged on religiosity are already there. We can't just take'em out. We need slow and steady decline from religiosity into a smooth transition into something else to fulfill whatever role religions have.

A line from a manga I read comes to mind. The problem with rotten systems is that, its the people that make it so. A corrupt government is one where the lowest rungs are corrupt too. They steal small things like office supplies. The police are lazy and take small bribes, etc. Even if you take out the head of the system, the corruption won't go away because its everywhere. You can't make a system that only works for people who are noble or decent, it needs to work without the crappest of crappy people.

Goddamn, I can't articulate properly what I need to say. Hope you got the gist of it though.
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Offline viocjit

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2013, 11:59:44 AM »
Update : I saw many documents about Atheism and Christianity.
I must see dozens of documents and after I will choice between Atheism and Christianity.

I can say that Atheism is probably the truth but if I make the bad choice I will have the pleasure to know hell (ironic ton).
Anybody have information who can explain how the OT was invented and why ?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #31 on: June 08, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »
Update : I saw many documents about Atheism and Christianity.
I must see dozens of documents and after I will choice between Atheism and Christianity.

I can say that Atheism is probably the truth but if I make the bad choice I will have the pleasure to know hell (ironic ton).
Anybody have information who can explain how the OT was invented and why ?

Why choose between Christianity and atheism? Why not beween Hinduism and Islam? What criteria did you use to rule out Hinduism and Islam? Then use that same criteria on Christianity.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #32 on: June 08, 2013, 03:10:57 PM »
Update : I saw many documents about Atheism and Christianity.
I must see dozens of documents and after I will choice between Atheism and Christianity.

I can say that Atheism is probably the truth but if I make the bad choice I will have the pleasure to know hell (ironic ton).
Anybody have information who can explain how the OT was invented and why ?
The OT is basically the history of the Jews. The first five books, the Books of Moses, are and invention: The Garden of Eden is a fairy story; the Flood is the invention of someone's imagination who did experience a big, but localised, flood; Moses did not exist; there were no Jewish slaves in Egypt; there was no 40 years in the Wilderness – nothing in there is true. These 5 books came from at least 4 sources, each of whom have their own tradition. The books of Moses are folk tales to explain how the Jews reached the point at which their civilisation was able to record real events.

The rest of the books comprise, a half-remembered history of the Jewish people into which God has been injected so as to support and protect the priesthood and royalty; several books of songs, poetry and philosophy and a genealogy that allegedly traces back the Jewish people to a god.

It is in the book of Jeremiah, that Jeremiah (he was real) carries out the orders of King Jehoram and destroys all other gods that the Jews had, except Yahweh.

If you remove, the silly stories – Jonah and the whale, Sampson, mentions of God and His works, etc. you are left with the bare bones of a history that Jewish academics have now corrected.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Garja

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #33 on: June 08, 2013, 03:26:23 PM »
One piece of advice- take your time. For many the process of fully deconverting takes a long period of time. The facts aren't going to change, but your opinion on them may. The doctrine of hell takes a while to get over for a lot of people- it's a scary concept- but for me I had to ask myself "is it (quite literally infinetely) scary by design. To my mind, someone wanted to come up with the worst possible consequences- so they did. Man did. The more you realize the illogical nature of religion and belief you will likely say to yourself one day "I don't believe any of it".

This always spoke to me:

"I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason and intellect has intended for us to forego their use."
-Galileo
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

-Benjamin Franklin

Online Azdgari

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #34 on: June 08, 2013, 04:38:53 PM »
Viocjit, have you considered that some unknown god might send people to a hell for not being atheists?
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Offline viocjit

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #35 on: June 08, 2013, 05:03:25 PM »
I know that all stories from the Genesis are myths (Adam , Eve , Flood etc..).
I know that Exodus probably never happened. (No Egyptian text about that).
But these texts are maybe only allegories (weird for texts inspired from summerian myths) or invention by humans.


Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2013, 05:25:18 PM »


 We need slow and steady decline from religiosity into a smooth transition into something else to fulfill whatever role religions have.

That is a chilling and scary concept.  I can't help but think about Big Brother, mind control and creepy politicians all too willing to jump right in.  (Orwellian nightmares)
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #37 on: June 09, 2013, 09:13:27 AM »
The OT is basically the history of the Jews.

I'd say it was more of their national myth than their history.  It is history as they wished it had been.  Also, it is a Culture Dump.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #38 on: June 09, 2013, 12:38:35 PM »


 We need slow and steady decline from religiosity into a smooth transition into something else to fulfill whatever role religions have.

That is a chilling and scary concept.  I can't help but think about Big Brother, mind control and creepy politicians all too willing to jump right in.  (Orwellian nightmares)

I can't figure how you made this leap. In fact, the more secular countries have, in general, less crime, better health, and much more. In other words, the less religion they have, the better off their people are.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #39 on: June 09, 2013, 01:54:21 PM »


 We need slow and steady decline from religiosity into a smooth transition into something else to fulfill whatever role religions have.

That is a chilling and scary concept.  I can't help but think about Big Brother, mind control and creepy politicians all too willing to jump right in.  (Orwellian nightmares)

I can't figure how you made this leap. In fact, the more secular countries have, in general, less crime, better health, and much more. In other words, the less religion they have, the better off their people are.

I'm not saying less religion is bad, but the part I bolded creeped me out.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2013, 04:34:34 AM »
Depends if you like to believe in "make believe shit" or not.  Some people need crutches to make it thru life (drugs, alcohol, work, religion, etc.).  If you don't want or need any of that then rational thought is the way to go.

Christianity is irrational, spirituality is not.  Suspecting that an intelligent source designed earth for mankind is not irrational.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2013, 05:11:11 AM »
Depends if you like to believe in "make believe shit" or not.  Some people need crutches to make it thru life (drugs, alcohol, work, religion, etc.).  If you don't want or need any of that then rational thought is the way to go.

Christianity is irrational, spirituality is not.  Suspecting that an intelligent source designed earth for mankind is not irrational.
magic is irrational when you ignore all of the reasonable solutions to suggest magic. Clearly you didnt view the short comedic video that shows exactly how putrid the idea of an "intelligent source" is when it comes to designs of and in earth. Spirituality is irrational especially since you cannot define nor describe this so called spirit.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2013, 06:57:15 AM »
Suspecting that an intelligent source designed earth for mankind is not irrational.

It is.  but that is not the topic of this thread.

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2013, 07:39:30 AM »
Suspecting that an intelligent source designed earth for mankind is not irrational.

It is if you take a good look at the way the planet is "designed" -- a word I use advisedly.

Seventy percent of the surface of the planet is covered with salt water, making it almost useless to us.  Another ten percent is covered by ice: same problem.  Not sure what percentage of the earth's surface is desert, but, again: same problem.  Clearly, the earth was not designed for us to live on because there is very little of it that we can live on.

It's very easy to imagine how the earth could be far, far better suited for human habitation.  Just for starters, reduce the oceans to perhaps ten percent of their current size, make them fresh water instead of salt water, and arrange them in such a way that it is never necessary to travel by water to reach another location on the planet.  (This would also have the additional benefit of preventing hurricanes from occurring.)  Modify the sun's output so that exposure to it does not cause skin damage.  Modify the planet's climate so that a greater portion of the land area is readily habitable.  Eliminate deserts, at least mostly, anyway, and replace them with arable land for growing crops -- can you imagine how much food could be grown just in the area of the Sahara alone?  And this is just stuff I'm coming up with off the top of my head.  I'm sure others here could add all kinds of other things.

If someone designed the earth for mankind, then whoever it is would have to be pretty stupid.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2013, 07:56:16 AM »
^^^ Also if it was designed specifically for us why go through such a lengthy (and mostly irrelevant[1]) process?

 1. i.e. what purpose does this serve for us http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geomagnetic_reversal

Offline neopagan

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #45 on: June 11, 2013, 09:20:22 AM »
viocjit -

Where are you in your journey so far?  You have talked a lot about reading all the "documents" in your posession, but it appears from what you said those documents relate to either atheism or christianity.  I think you will find your quest infinitely harder if you wish to examine "all" evidences from every position - like others said - what about hinduism, islam, etc..?

Maybe you are at that difficult point I was - you just have to trust your gut; something about this whole christianity tale just doesn't pass the sniff test.  It stinks from beginning to end - nevermind it has a sprinkling of history, moral tales, and sayings about love.  None of that is original or compelling when you remove the filter of the bible as your guide. 

Frankly, I'm a little ashamed I not only bought into the myth for so long but defended it and supported it.  I wore my 'bible goggles" - although unknowingly, the whole time and NEVER bothered to entertain it might be wrong or there were other (better) explanations worth considering.  Sure, I was brought up by religious types, married one, and continued in that lifestyle... but I was my own worst enemy - I should have thought this through years ago.

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Garja

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #46 on: June 11, 2013, 10:30:30 AM »
^ I actually disagree with the above.  Dont listen to your gut.  "the gut" is an asshole, and will lead you astray.  Facts, however speak for themselves.

"If something feels right, it must be treated with the same respect given something that actually is right.  If something is felt deeply, it must carry the same weight as something that is true.  If there are two sides to every argument- or more to the point, if there are people willing to take up two sides to every argument - they both must be right, or at least, equally valid." (Charles Pierce, Idiot America... pg. 34)
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline neopagan

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #47 on: June 11, 2013, 10:51:32 AM »
^ I actually disagree with the above.  Dont listen to your gut.  "the gut" is an asshole, and will lead you astray.  Facts, however speak for themselves.

I think what I was saying agrees with you entirely... maybe the gut reference is a little unscientific, but when the data looks bad and contradicts the facts, something is telling you you are on the wrong path...

I think he is wallowing in data at the moment (although selectively ignoring some).  Facts are indeed nice!
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline viocjit

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #48 on: June 11, 2013, 12:19:04 PM »
viocjit -

Where are you in your journey so far?  You have talked a lot about reading all the "documents" in your posession, but it appears from what you said those documents relate to either atheism or christianity.  I think you will find your quest infinitely harder if you wish to examine "all" evidences from every position - like others said - what about hinduism, islam, etc..?

Excuse me to quote only a part of your message.

About Hinduism :
I know that all polytheistic religions were created by humans.

About Islam :
I know that this pseudo-revelation who was did by Allah to muhammad is a fake.
Because the text say that the first human was made with clay but this is false like
the first human is only a myth.

I must read many documents (particulary documents who explain the creation of OT who is probably a human invention).



Offline screwtape

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #49 on: June 11, 2013, 12:46:09 PM »
About Hinduism :
I know that all polytheistic religions were created by humans.

Did you know the hebrew god, yhwh, was originally part of a whole pantheon of god?  Their chief god was El.  There were other gods, who are mentioned in the bible.  Yam, Ba'al and Asherah, who was yhwh's wife.  Does that help?
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #50 on: June 11, 2013, 12:50:01 PM »
once you decide one god is too many, you are on your way
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline viocjit

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #51 on: June 11, 2013, 02:45:00 PM »
About Hinduism :
I know that all polytheistic religions were created by humans.

Did you know the hebrew god, yhwh, was originally part of a whole pantheon of god?  Their chief god was El.  There were other gods, who are mentioned in the bible.  Yam, Ba'al and Asherah, who was yhwh's wife.  Does that help?

About YHWH in Hebrew ???? I already hear this thing.
I can say the same about Asherah in Hebrew ????.
But I don't have many evidences except some inscriptions.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #52 on: June 11, 2013, 08:04:46 PM »
About Hinduism :
I know that all polytheistic religions were created by humans.

Did you know the hebrew god, yhwh, was originally part of a whole pantheon of god?  Their chief god was El.  There were other gods, who are mentioned in the bible.  Yam, Ba'al and Asherah, who was yhwh's wife.  Does that help?

About YHWH in Hebrew ???? I already hear this thing.
I can say the same about Asherah in Hebrew ????.
But I don't have many evidences except some inscriptions.

Is a religion with Yahweh, Jesus, and Casper as gods, NOT polytheistic?

Online Azdgari

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #53 on: June 11, 2013, 08:15:46 PM »
In Hinduism, all of the gods are "one" as well - they are a part of Brahman.  Yet it is still considered polytheistic.  If it's still polytheistic, then so is the Trinity.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #54 on: June 12, 2013, 07:14:29 AM »
But I don't have many evidences except some inscriptions.

We're talking about ancient archaeology.  A few inscriptions is about the best you can hope for.
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Offline viocjit

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #55 on: June 12, 2013, 08:10:21 AM »
But I don't have many evidences except some inscriptions.

We're talking about ancient archaeology.  A few inscriptions is about the best you can hope for.

In this moment I'm seeking a lot to know more about the formation of OT.

Offline Garja

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #56 on: June 12, 2013, 08:50:14 AM »
^ I actually disagree with the above.  Dont listen to your gut.  "the gut" is an asshole, and will lead you astray.  Facts, however speak for themselves.

I think what I was saying agrees with you entirely... maybe the gut reference is a little unscientific, but when the data looks bad and contradicts the facts, something is telling you you are on the wrong path...

I think he is wallowing in data at the moment (although selectively ignoring some).  Facts are indeed nice!

I was nit-picking more than anything!

Just wanted to clarify that things like "common sense" and "gut" are not always the way to go.  "Gut" tells you that everything has to have a beginning and a "cause", etc.  "Gut" tends to anthropomorphize, and see intent, and form patterns that aren't there.
"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects in Christianity, we shall find few that have not in their turns been persecutors, and complainers of persecution."

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Offline Cycle4Fun

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Re: Deconversion , bad thing or good thing ?
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2013, 12:45:03 PM »
Viocjit,

A couple of things helped me through the mental anguish of loosing faith.  It is hard to break years of mental conditioning.  I'll list them as they occurred to me on my deconversion from high school through college.  It took years for me to accept that there is no evidence of a god.

1.  Obvious falsehoods in the Bible (Creation, Noah, Jonah, zombies, etc.)
2.  Historical inaccuracies (All of Exodus, census, etc.)
3.  God doesn't appear to do anything or exist at all.  People do actions and then claim a deity is doing something.
4.  Why don't I believe in any of the other God's mankind has worshipped? http://www.rationalresponders.com/a_big_list_of_gods_but_nowhere_near_all_of_them

Steps 1 and 2 got me asking questions.  Asking questions of a religion just leads to more questions.  Questions like 3 and 4.

Question 3 simply asks, "Is there any evidence that a god exists?"  Any god; not just God of the Torah/Bible/Koran.  I have yet to see any evidence of a god.  Then I asked question 4, "If God doesn't appear to exist, why do I believe in him?"

The answer of "That's how I was raised and what my social group believes in." is a terrible answer.  There is no truth in that answer.  My social group that believes in God (the god of Abrahamic religions) is no different than other social groups that believe/have believed in thousands of other gods.

The answer to the question from a believer of, "Why don't I believe in God?" is best answered by the response, "I don't believe in your god for the very same reason you don't believe in any of the other thousands of gods mankind has worshiped."


That answer cuts right to the heart of the lack of evidence.  When you apply the same logic to your god that you apply to other gods each with their own written and oral histories, then I don't see how anyone can continue to believe in a god.

If you come to a different conclusion, let us know.  Maybe you've stumbled on evidence we haven't seen.
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