Author Topic: Holocaust  (Read 1498 times)

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Offline holybuckets

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #29 on: May 13, 2013, 08:01:45 PM »
And this ^^^ is why it's critical that we keep calling out people who question tales of genocide.

I get what you mean, but I think questioning things is okay.  Especially if it is an honest question and not trollery.  There is a difference between questioning an event and denying an event for which there is abundant and irrefutable evidence.

I think it is better to answer holybuckets' goofy proposition with evidence than to just shut him down, even if he is trolling.  If the truth is on your side, then questions are not to be feared.

"Each year for decades, tens of thousands of visitors to Auschwitz have been shown an execution 'gas chamber' in the main camp, supposedly in its 'original state.' In January 1995 the prestigious French weekly magazine L'Express acknowledged that 'everything' about this 'gas chamber' is 'false,' and that it is in fact a deceitful postwar reconstruction. "

Citation:  Eric Conan, "Auschwitz: La Memoire du Mal," L'Express, Jan. 19-25, 1995, pp. 54-73.

Offline Energized

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #30 on: May 13, 2013, 08:43:51 PM »
Typical christian troll, although the holocaust is a new one for me. Usually it's "prove that the signatures on the declaration of indenpendence are real". Funny how they try to validate their own belief by trying to put the same doubts on verifiable historical accounts.

Thing is, what these trolls don't realize is that true evidence usually comes from different sources. We have the german accounts on what happened, the accounts of the allies, the accounts of soldiers, the jews themselves, etc. If that's not evidence enough, you demand much more than what you offer when defending your shitty religion.

So let's play your little game, shall we? Let's take the evidence of the holocaust (listed above - do your own research) and compare that to christianity. You have no documentation other than the bible. No source documents, poor translations thereof, and no eye witness accounts that can verified anywhere else except the bible. On top of all of that, the books contained in the bible contradict each other, give "historical" information that contradicts literally hundreds of other volumes written in the same time frame, and when examined with a critical eye, demonstrates that the writers were projecting as god. There is no proof of creation, there is no proof that the earth was covered ina gloal flood... Hell, there is no evidence your lord and saviour even existed! Your holy manual does not stand up to the critical eye you demand of the holocaust.

Curious, do you honestly believe someone is going to read your drivel on this topic and think, "Well, holy buckets of shit!. Maybe the holocaust was faked! Maybe it was all staged... like the moon landing! And maybe the government really was behind 9/11. And if those events were faked, then maybe I was wrong about christianity being fake. Maybe I should pray!"

Chum, your lack of underatanding of what true evidence is what keeps you ignorant. And your attempt at drawing a corelation between a true historical event and your laughable religion was an epic fail.

Good luck with all of that.

E.

'O pitiful shadow lost in the darkness,
Bringing torment and pain to others.
O damned soul wallowing in your sin.
Perhaps it is time to die?'

~Enma Ai, Jigoku Shoujo

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #31 on: May 13, 2013, 09:55:38 PM »
Typical christian troll, although the holocaust is a new one for me. Usually it's "prove that the signatures on the declaration of indenpendence are real". Funny how they try to validate their own belief by trying to put the same doubts on verifiable historical accounts.

Thing is, what these trolls don't realize is that true evidence usually comes from different sources. We have the german accounts on what happened, the accounts of the allies, the accounts of soldiers, the jews themselves, etc. If that's not evidence enough, you demand much more than what you offer when defending your shitty religion.

So let's play your little game, shall we? Let's take the evidence of the holocaust (listed above - do your own research) and compare that to christianity. You have no documentation other than the bible. No source documents, poor translations thereof, and no eye witness accounts that can verified anywhere else except the bible. On top of all of that, the books contained in the bible contradict each other, give "historical" information that contradicts literally hundreds of other volumes written in the same time frame, and when examined with a critical eye, demonstrates that the writers were projecting as god. There is no proof of creation, there is no proof that the earth was covered ina gloal flood... Hell, there is no evidence your lord and saviour even existed! Your holy manual does not stand up to the critical eye you demand of the holocaust.

Curious, do you honestly believe someone is going to read your drivel on this topic and think, "Well, holy buckets of shit!. Maybe the holocaust was faked! Maybe it was all staged... like the moon landing! And maybe the government really was behind 9/11. And if those events were faked, then maybe I was wrong about christianity being fake. Maybe I should pray!"

Chum, your lack of underatanding of what true evidence is what keeps you ignorant. And your attempt at drawing a corelation between a true historical event and your laughable religion was an epic fail.

Good luck with all of that.

E.



At one time it was seriously claimed that at Auschwitz Jews were systematically killed with electricity. American newspapers in February 1945, citing a Soviet eyewitness report from the recently-liberated camp, told readers that the methodical Germans had killed Jews there using an "electric conveyor belt on which hundreds of persons could be electrocuted simultaneously [and] then moved on into furnaces. They were burned almost instantly, producing fertilizer for nearby cabbage fields." [1]
At the Nuremberg Tribunal, chief US prosecutor Robert Jackson charged that the Germans had used a "newly invented" device to instantaneously "vaporize" 20,000 Jews near Auschwitz "in such a way that there was no trace left of them." [2] No reputable historian now accepts either of these fanciful tales.
7. Washington (DC) Daily News, Feb. 2, 1945, pp. 2, 35. (United Press dispatch from Moscow).
8. IMT "blue series," Vol. 16, pp. 529-530. (June 21, 1946).




Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2013, 03:42:57 AM »
I'm not surely this really deserves a response, but....the first two at least (and the title of the third presumes) that they are histories of the military development of the war.  Churchill and Eisenhower talk at length about numbers of tanks and where divisions were posted....very much a telling of the war, as opposed to the details of civilian life.  Churchill, for example, does not appear to mention evacuees - should we therefore assume that they also did not exist?

Between the three, there are over 7000 pages printed. Dont you find it strange that not one of these high ranking men mention the gassing of individuals?

Nope.  Read what I wrote.  The Holocaust, and the events at Aushwitz, Dachau, Belsen, while terrible, were NOT a military issue.  The three books that you selectively choose are military memoirs that detail the conflicts and troop movements and logistics of the campaigns. 

They do not go into great details about the rations that soldiers were fed - I would not expect them to, and I do not therefore infer that the soldiers were NOT fed. 
They do not list all the entertainers in the Armed Forces concert parties, or discuss the shows, or (I believe) even mention them at all.  I would not expect them to, and I do not therefore infer that the shows did not take place.
Because there are huge amounts of OTHER evidence, from other sources.  The fact that three sources that were written with a particular slant do not mention something unconnected with their theme is not evidence that that event did not take place.

What Holocaust sources have you read, holybuckets?  And - in those sources - how much time do they spend talking about the details of Allied troop movements that Churchill discusses?  Do you regard those sources lack of detail about the military aspects of the war as evidence that all the fighting was a sham, and that really the war was just a couple of companies trotting through the woods somewhere in the Black Forest?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #33 on: May 14, 2013, 04:01:38 AM »
Quote
    What proof is there that the holocaust took place?

    "Three of the best known works on the Second World War are General Eisenhower's Crusade in Europe (New York: Doubleday [Country Life Press], 1948), Winston Churchill's The Second World War (London: Cassell, 6 vols., 1948-1954), and the Mémoires de guerre of General de Gaulle (Paris: Plon, 3 vols., 1954-1959).  In these three works not the least mention of Nazi gas chambers is to be found.

Let's assume for the sake of argument, that the works cited above were the ONLY available works that might have referred to the Holocaust, so in short, no evidence for the mass killings perpetrated by the Nazis  (just like there's no evidence for Jesus.)

The problem you have is that the Holocaust is not asking me to turn my life over to it, worship or revere it, sanctify its details, canonize its characters, believe its crazy, baseless myths as 'gospel', or listen to its proponents as though they speak for god. 

The 'myth' of the Holocaust might still (like many myths), teach lessons (like avoid scapegoating, for instance), even without a shred of truth to the actual stories.  If that's all xians asked regarding the 'Jesus' character, or the bible, I might be willing to search the bible as a philosophical work to extract some useful wisdom or pithy quotes,  however, that is not what believers want.  They want the entire myth of the bible to be accepted as absolute truth, and proof positive of god.  For that my friend, you are going to need a great deal of legitimate evidence INDEPENDENT of the fictions themselves, and you have NO such material.  There is NO proof that the bible is anything more than a collection of stories, and so cannot possibly be expected to be used as proof of your god.

Offline grant

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 05:53:28 AM »
My first post was deleted as "inappropriate comment removed.  In the future, please make or refute arguments, not call names."

Perhaps my comment was a bit blunt (Graybeard put it much nicer than me) but I don't think WWGHA should pander to holocaust deniers at any level.

None.

The holocaust is a well documented, witnessed and proven piece of history. Perhaps the younger people find the whole story a bit hard to swallow due to the extreme measures of the time against their relative comfort of the present. But there is no question of the facts. Like it or lump it - it happened. Less than three quarters of a century ago. Less than three quarters of a century ago.

I stand by my comment that holybuckets should fuck off and he / she's an idiot (idiot being hardly a "name" I wouldn't have thought). I considered my rebuke quite mild and you can ban me if you want - but I'll still stand by my opinion, which is based on fact.

While holocaust denial is not specifically illegal in my country, nor perhaps the USA, it is certainly illegal in many. Please read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_against_Holocaust_denial for some information about the foul stance deniers take. Note the dates when many of these crimes were brought into law - not immediately after the War (when all people on the planet knew the truth) but decades later when the passing of time allowed the "idiots" to pass their misrepresentations off as genuine positions against the dwindling numbers who lived it as fact.

WWGHA should not allow such threads.
What if the hokey pokey is what its all about?

Offline Dante

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 07:10:32 AM »
WWGHA should not allow such threads.

You've made no argument to support this stance, and I would have to disagree with your position, on it's face. Why not let let such a thread stand? There's good information, good knowledge, and good opportunity for education that can come from threads such as these. Potential for anyone to learn is a good thing.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 08:35:41 AM »
Typical christian troll, although the holocaust is a new one for me. Usually it's "prove that the signatures on the declaration of indenpendence are real". Funny how they try to validate their own belief by trying to put the same doubts on verifiable historical accounts.

Thing is, what these trolls don't realize is that true evidence usually comes from different sources. We have the german accounts on what happened, the accounts of the allies, the accounts of soldiers, the jews themselves, etc. If that's not evidence enough, you demand much more than what you offer when defending your shitty religion.

So let's play your little game, shall we? Let's take the evidence of the holocaust (listed above - do your own research) and compare that to christianity. You have no documentation other than the bible. No source documents, poor translations thereof, and no eye witness accounts that can verified anywhere else except the bible. On top of all of that, the books contained in the bible contradict each other, give "historical" information that contradicts literally hundreds of other volumes written in the same time frame, and when examined with a critical eye, demonstrates that the writers were projecting as god. There is no proof of creation, there is no proof that the earth was covered ina gloal flood... Hell, there is no evidence your lord and saviour even existed! Your holy manual does not stand up to the critical eye you demand of the holocaust.

Curious, do you honestly believe someone is going to read your drivel on this topic and think, "Well, holy buckets of shit!. Maybe the holocaust was faked! Maybe it was all staged... like the moon landing! And maybe the government really was behind 9/11. And if those events were faked, then maybe I was wrong about christianity being fake. Maybe I should pray!"

Chum, your lack of underatanding of what true evidence is what keeps you ignorant. And your attempt at drawing a corelation between a true historical event and your laughable religion was an epic fail.

Good luck with all of that.

E.


Quote
Religion demands perfect evidence from science, yet no evidence from itself.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Nam

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2013, 08:43:36 AM »
I disagree with grant: if this thread is deleted then you're just hiding the ignorance; you're denying that ignorance exists. By keeping it visible you're showing that ignorance does exist and in many lights: unjustifiably.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:27 AM »
Debating whether the thread should exist is not on topic.  If you cannot stay on topic, the thread will be locked.  

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2013, 09:30:12 AM »
I see holybuckets is still attempting to play the spin game by using specific citations that contradict specific assertions and then pretending that they therefore contradict the Holocaust as a whole.

Let's take his citation of "Auschwitz: La Memoire du Mal".  It is actually an article detailing the restoration of the Auschwitz crematorium, which was used as a gas chamber from 1941 to 1942, written in French.  The quote[1] he used is not from the article he supposedly cited.  This is obvious when you look at the details of the citation[2].

What Conan actually wrote was, "L'exemple du crématoire I, le seul d'Auschwitz I, est significatif. Dans sa morgue fut installée la première chambre à gaz. Elle fonctionna peu de temps, au début de 1942: l'isolement de la zone, qu'impliquaient les gazages, perturbait l'activité du camp. Il fut donc décidé, à la fin d'avril 1942, de transférer ces gazages mortels à Birkenau, où ils furent pratiqués, sur des victimes essentiellement juives, à une échelle industrielle. Le crématoire I fut, par la suite, transformé en abri antiaérien, avec salle d'opération. En 1948, lors de la création du musée, le crématoire I fut reconstitué dans un état d'origine supposé. Tout y est faux: les dimensions de la chambre à gaz, l'emplacement des portes, les ouvertures pour le versement du Zyklon B, les fours, rebâtis selon les souvenirs de quelques survivants, la hauteur de la cheminée."  In effect, he confirms that Crema 1 at Auschwitz was used as a gas chamber for several months before they decided to have the killings at Birkenau instead, and that when the Communist authorities in Poland decided to rebuild the crematorium (which had been turned into a bomb shelter with an operating room in the meantime), they got a lot of the details wrong.  You'll note that he says that all of the following were wrong; the dimensions of the gas chamber, the placement of the doors, the openings where Zyklon B was poured, the ovens (rebuilt based on the memories of the survivors), and even the height of the chimney.

Unsurprisingly, Holocaust deniers used that to claim that the whole thing was bogus and that, therefore, there was no gas chamber at Auschwitz at all.  This is false.  Conan was reporting that they got a lot of the specific details about the gas chamber wrong when they reconstructed it.

Anyway, I'm almost certain that holybuckets simply pulled that quotation from a Holocaust denier website, which means he lied about the citation he used.  He should have cited the website he actually got it from, and that later 'citation he used', rather than what he actually did.

Upon reviewing http://ihr.org/leaflets/auschwitz.shtml, I'm certain that he just pulled these wholesale from it (or another similar website), since the quotes and citations he used are listed word-for-word here.  Which he didn't cite, either time.  Which means he knowingly lied about it.
 1. "Each year for decades, tens of thousands of visitors to Auschwitz have been shown an execution 'gas chamber' in the main camp, supposedly in its 'original state.' In January 1995 the prestigious French weekly magazine L'Express acknowledged that 'everything' about this 'gas chamber' is 'false,' and that it is in fact a deceitful postwar reconstruction. "
 2. Citation:  Eric Conan, "Auschwitz: La Memoire du Mal," L'Express, Jan. 19-25, 1995, pp. 54-73.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Holocaust
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2013, 09:36:46 AM »
I  don't see holybuckets making much of an actual attempt to support his claim.  Others have made a much better case that the holocaust did occur.  In light of that and his terrible citation, I'm locking the thread.

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