Author Topic: I believe because of miracles  (Read 4007 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2796
  • Darwins +222/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2013, 10:30:21 PM »
War and all those things are written in the Bible as a sign that Jesus is coming soon.

I don't think Jesus is coming at all, Andrew.  If there ever was such a person, he either got executed by the Romans or died an ordinary death, and is now... Well, dead.  Terminally so, in fact. ;D  Just because the Bible claims that he came back to life doesn't mean that it actually happened, you know.

Don't wait up.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4288
  • Darwins +441/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2013, 11:43:58 PM »
Andrew, all you're giving us is evidence of your credulousness.  Basically, that you'll believe anything as long as you can tie it in with your religion somehow.

But we require more evidence than that; all you're really telling us is that we just have to use our imaginations and we'll be able to believe as you do.  And that just doesn't fly.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5963
  • Darwins +644/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Entropy isn’t what it used to be
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #31 on: May 02, 2013, 12:28:42 AM »
So when I, an atheist, stop and help someone with a car problem (which has happened quite a few times in my life) should that person thank god even though I'm an atheist? Or did the devil make me be nice? Or what?

Last winter I was one of two people helping a mutual friend get to Missoula (45 miles away) at least twice a week for her chemo treatments. The other person is mildly religious. I of course am not. So when the other person did it, should my friend have thanked god, and when I did it, thanked nobody?

Inquiring minds want to know. If I'm doing gods work, he should tell me. If I'm doing work as a friend and concerned fellow human being (which is what I assume I was doing), it would be nice to know that the credit is going to the right cause (friendship) rather than a wrong one (a non-existent god). But obviously I need your help to decipher my actions.

Is the Angelica Zambrino post the one with the video? No, I didn't watch it. You had already announced that you were gone for good and I wasn't interested anyway. Anyone can say fantastic things. I'd need to see such things in person, with Penn and Teller by my side confirming that it wasn't either magic or bullish*t.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything!

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5965
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #32 on: May 02, 2013, 01:39:30 AM »
Haven't you ever heard of the creative miracles that are going on around the globe. Eyeballs are growing in the their sockets, legs are growing out to normal size, bones being manufactured.

Wow!!!

I just can't understand why you haven't linked to the Youtube footage of these things happening.

You have SEEN these things happening, right?  Or seen the film of eyeballs actually growing?  You're not just hearing an incredible story and believing it without any evidence, are you?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5965
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #33 on: May 02, 2013, 01:41:53 AM »
One time I prayed for a lady in church who couldn't hear and when i was done praying for her she could hear.

Andrew.

I am very pleased you are here.

One of my eyes has nerve damage - something I have been advised will not get any better.  This is your chance to make a thousand converts - pray for my eye to be healed, and I will testify to your god.

Couldn't be simpler, right?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Andrew

  • Emergency Room
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Darwins +0/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #34 on: May 02, 2013, 02:00:21 AM »
yeah right the chances that a mechanic with the right equipment would be the second car and stop within 2 minutes of me praying for a miracle are outstanding odds. Escpecially outstanding that is that his phone would say praise God.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2628
  • Darwins +167/-71
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2013, 02:18:31 AM »
Missoula

Missoula, Montana is famous in our household, due to us stumbling across this:



We've always assumed the news presenters accent is especially strong.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Andrew

  • Emergency Room
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Darwins +0/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2013, 02:33:12 AM »
Alright here's another big miracle - since you don't like the small or medium ones... I brought a homeless guy into my house and he ended up inheriting over a million dollars. He now has wrote me in his will as his sole heir

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5368
  • Darwins +151/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #37 on: May 02, 2013, 03:11:24 AM »
Listen you dickhead   

On this site evidence is required. 

You insult me with your desperate requirement that I needs be a credulous fool willing to blindly accept whatever any attention deprived gormless cretin wants to claim as truth.

So for each and every claim you make either provide evidence or shut  up and go away.

By this sites rules, which you gave you theist word to abide by, you don't get a  choice.

EDIT to remove irritated bile

« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 03:20:05 AM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Andrew

  • Emergency Room
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Darwins +0/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #38 on: May 02, 2013, 03:29:01 AM »
Listen you dickhead   

On this site evidence is required. 

You insult me with your desperate requirement that I needs be a credulous fool willing to blindly accept whatever any attention deprived gormless cretin wants to claim as truth.

So for each and every claim you make either provide evidence or shut  up and go away.

By this sites rules, which you gave you theist word to abide by, you don't get a  choice.

EDIT to remove irritated bile

What do you wan't me to post the will document?

Offline Andrew

  • Emergency Room
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Darwins +0/-12
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #39 on: May 02, 2013, 03:48:21 AM »
watch this video if you don't believe in miracles

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11399
  • Darwins +272/-76
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #40 on: May 02, 2013, 04:31:01 AM »
Can I pretend I believe in miracles and not watch it?

-Nam

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11399
  • Darwins +272/-76
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #41 on: May 02, 2013, 04:34:26 AM »
I think Andrew doesn't know that the definition (in his case) of magic is just: made up shit.

-Nam

Offline Fiji

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1227
  • Darwins +83/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #42 on: May 02, 2013, 05:01:01 AM »
Listened the first few minutes and spotted several errors wrt Islam. Most notably, praying to Muhammed is an absolute nono in Islam. Praying to anyone other than god is a concept utterly alien to Muslims.

Then I plonked his name into google ... don't know if it's shown on screen, it's spelled Nasir Siddiki.

Came across a few pages that point out even more errors.
So, he might have been a cultural Muslim, but certainly not a practising one.

As for the miracle itself ... no proof other than his say so. Plus, he keeps changing his story and his story does not match up with the photographs shown.

All in all, a conman, pure and simple
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Mrjason

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 940
  • Darwins +67/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #43 on: May 02, 2013, 05:02:35 AM »
Alright here's another big miracle - since you don't like the small or medium ones... I brought a homeless guy into my house and he ended up inheriting over a million dollars. He now has wrote me in his will as his sole heir

Matthew 19:24

And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God


You must be gutted  :(

Offline kin hell

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5368
  • Darwins +151/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • - .... . .-. . /.. ... / -. --- / --. --- -.. ...
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #44 on: May 02, 2013, 05:26:29 AM »


What do you wan't me to post the will document?

OK  I'll call your bluff.  Yes,  I want you to post the will document, (don't be an idiot you idiot) with enough other supporting evidence to prove your claim

and while you are at it, provide evidence for this claim as well


One time I prayed for a lady in church who couldn't hear and when i was done praying for her she could hear.

EDIT added bracketed

« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 05:45:43 AM by kin hell »
"...but on a lighter note, demons were driven from a pig today in Gloucester."  Bill Bailey

all edits are for spelling or grammar unless specified otherwise

Offline Anfauglir

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5965
  • Darwins +371/-4
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #45 on: May 02, 2013, 05:31:28 AM »
yeah right the chances that a mechanic with the right equipment would be the second car and stop within 2 minutes of me praying for a miracle are outstanding odds. Escpecially outstanding that is that his phone would say praise God.

Really?  How do you calculate those odds?

First point: the fact that he stopped at all, and that his phone said "praise God", are not worthy of seperate mention.  Clearly from his phone he is a committed Christian, and so he would of course stop for you, knowing as he did the story of the Good Samaritan.

But one thing I don't understand - what exactly are you claiming your god DID in this instance?  I can think of three possibles, though perhaps you have another in mind?  I'd be grateful if you would let me know which of these you are claiming is correct.

1) God made the man stop.  The most trivial of claims.  The man was driving along that road entirely by coincidence.  He did not intend to stop (Bad Christian!  See above), but your god altered his mind and forced him to decide to stop.  If this is your claim, how do you reconcile that with Free Will (assuming you believe in it)?

2) God made the man a mechanic.  That man would have been driving along anyway, and would have stopped anyway.....but your god ensured that his life decisions resulted in him becoming a mechanic.  This is a greater steamrollering of free will, what if he'd wanted to be a surgeon but (in order to fulfil your prayer), your god altered his mind and made him opt for the life of a mechanic?  This implies that your god has no problem with taking huge swipes at a person's life and forcing them down a particular road.  Are you comfortable with that?

3) God made sure the man was on that road.  Wow.  Now this likely requires a HUGE amount of intervention in the world.  At minimum, he was forced to choose a different route to that which he would have preferred to take.  But it could mean that, to ensure he took THAT route, your god had to ensure he was on his way to a call, say.  Are you suggesting your god caused someone else's car to break down, in order that the machanic was driving along that road at that time?

With all the above, remember that you are claiming this was a MIRACLE, and not coincidence.  For it to be a miracle, it has to have been something your god actually DID - so you cannot therefore claim that your god did NOT override that man's free will on your behalf.

And that's what I don't get - your god apparently places a huge reliance on free will and people making choices....and yet, because you are too dumb to know how to use a jack, or to carry a spare tyre, he happily overrode free will to a significant degree in order to save you some inconvenience.  Is that the god that you wish to protray to us?  Because is sounds like your god has huge double standards if you are.

Final thought: no matter how you cut it, your claim is that your god directly intervened in the world, rapidly and significantly, to answer your prayer.  So why aren't you praying for a cure for cancer, or for an  end to famine?  You've shown us that god jumps when you call, so why not pray for others rather than yourself?

And if you ARE praying for those things.....can you explain why your god leaps so quickly to your aid to save you a little inconvenience, but ignores you when you ask for aid for the suffering of others?

If you REALLY want us to come around to your god, those are questions you need to answer.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Odin

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1030
  • Darwins +13/-2
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #46 on: May 02, 2013, 06:36:47 AM »
yeah right the chances that a mechanic with the right equipment would be the second car and stop within 2 minutes of me praying for a miracle are outstanding odds. Escpecially outstanding that is that his phone would say praise God.

You don't understand the power of coincidence, and the power of mathematics.

Here is a little miracle you can do yourself, in your own home.  Take a deck of ordinary playing cards, with jokers removed, shuffle them well and deal out all 52 cards.  You can deal them face up so you can see them.

You just dealt yourself a miracle!

The number of possible deals in a deck of 52 cards is 52!, or ~8.066 times 10^67 (ten to the 67th power).

To understand how large that number is, consider this:

If there were a trillion worlds, and each world had a trillion people, and each person had a trillion computers, and each computer could deal a trillion deals a second, and the computers had started dealing 13 billion years ago (just after the Big Bang), then all that would have to exist in 197 parallel universes for all the deals in one deck of 52 cards to have been dealt.

I am not the best mathematician in the world, but with 7 billion people total and about 6 billion over ten years old, I am probably in the top 20%.  That puts me somewhere in the top 1.2 billion of the top adult mathematicians in the world.

Do you see how much fun it can be to think?

The music is playing, the invitation is out.  Come down the aisle and join us in the enlightenment.  Leave the darkness of superstition behind.  It is really bright here.

Odin, King of the Gods

PS - It would have been a miracle if the tire had fixed itself and re-inflated.  Then god's angel could have done something really important, like saving a starving child in Somalia or Ethiopia.  25,000 children die each day due to lack of food, clean water, or preventable diseases.  And yet you believe you rate an angel fixing your tire.  That is hilarious. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 06:40:03 AM by Odin »

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1983
  • Darwins +369/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #47 on: May 02, 2013, 07:09:45 AM »
watch this video if you don't believe in miracles

Ok.  So a man with a severe case of shingles, accompanied by a high fever, has a hallucination, and then miraculously recovers????  AND, then the really ugly shingles disappear???

According to the CDC, death from shingles is very rare, and occurs usually in elderly patients, and those with compromised immune systems.  Oh.  And the blisters go away in a few months. 

http://www.cdc.gov/shingles/hcp/clinical-overview.html

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 872
  • Darwins +28/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #48 on: May 02, 2013, 07:10:57 AM »
He sounds like a pathological liar.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1983
  • Darwins +369/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #49 on: May 02, 2013, 07:18:34 AM »
He sounds like a pathological liar.

I don't know.  You're really sick.  You're scared.  You're delusional with a high fever.  You have funny dreams.  Then you get better.

And when you look back on it, you have profound thoughts.

Many years ago I had dental work, and they gave me that gas.  I REMEMBER leaving my body and floating around the room and looking down at myself, and watching the dentist and his assistant opening their mouths and singing opera-type music.  I REMEMBER it.  It didn't feel like a dream.  Decades later, it feels like a memory. 

I was drugged.  This guy was drugged.  And had a high fever, and possible brain swelling.  And he was in pain and scared. 


Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4288
  • Darwins +441/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #50 on: May 02, 2013, 07:19:28 AM »
Alright here's another big miracle - since you don't like the small or medium ones... I brought a homeless guy into my house and he ended up inheriting over a million dollars. He now has wrote me in his will as his sole heir
Since the story of a homeless man inheriting a million dollars would undoubtedly be printed in your local newspaper, one thing you can do to provide supporting evidence is to provide a link to the news article which undoubtedly covers this rags-to-riches story.

It won't prove it, not by itself, but that's good as a starting point.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline Graybeard

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6178
  • Darwins +410/-13
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #51 on: May 02, 2013, 07:28:17 AM »
One time I prayed for a lady in church who couldn't hear and when i was done praying for her she could hear.
One time I prayed that the bastard who stole my parking place would die. And exactly 17 years, 4 months and 22 days later, he did die! You see Jesus does hear our prayers!
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2796
  • Darwins +222/-0
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #52 on: May 02, 2013, 10:12:47 AM »
yeah right the chances that a mechanic with the right equipment would be the second car...

"The right equipment"?  Heeheeheeheehee!  (Springy G flings open the trunk of Andrew's alleged car and tosses out a spare tire, a long-handled wrench and a jack.)  Dear, sweet Uncle Loki -- If I was stranded a gazillion miles from nowhere, *I* could probably switch My own tire if I had to.

And WTF were you doing on a highway with that degree of automotive cluelessness, anyway?  If I go on a road trip I generally carry a few emergency supplies in the trunk, like windshield wiper fluid, some 5/30 oil, funnels, paper towels and jumper cables.  (makes mental note to pick up some fuses to add to Her kit)

What do you wan't me to post the will document?

Yes, please do.  Otherwise, I'm going to assume that Mr. Homeless was just BSing you about inheriting a million dollars and about writing you into his will.  If this story were true, why didn't he just give you some cash up front (like, say, $10,000-$20,000) as a "thank you"?  (I know I would.)

Please link to a .PDF of the will and make sure that the law firm's seal and the lawyer's and witnesses' names and signatures are clearly visible.  Anyone and his dog can throw together a fake will, y'know.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline caveat_imperator

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 196
  • Darwins +6/-0
  • Gender: Male
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #53 on: May 02, 2013, 11:07:28 AM »
Here's a medium size miracle. I was driving home from church one night on the freeway and my right tire popped. I immediately began calling upon God and having absolute trust that He would help me (since I had no phone). And I kid you not the second car that passed by pulled over and happened to be a mechanic. By the time I finished using his phone (and didn't get through to anyone) he had already fixed the tire completely and when I looked at his phone the header on it was this "praise God". Who knows that might have been an angel since I know that they were all around me and following me home because I saw them and could feel them all around me.

Hah! I remember some incorrigible idiot at FRDB by the name of Self-Mutation using a similar story!

http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?p=6863177#post6863177

That's his first version of the story. He kept changing it (quite substantially sometimes) when everyone kept poking holes in his account. Every time others would point out he changed his story he would assert that he never did.
S-M never, ever figured out what constituted evidence no matter how many time it was defined for him. Hopefully Andrew will figure out what evidence is soon.
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 11501
  • Darwins +560/-22
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2013, 11:11:36 AM »
Here's a medium size miracle.

That's nothing.  One rainy night I was on my way to see a speaker who was trying to rope me into Amway.  On the way, I got a flat.  And the screw that held the jack and spare in the trunk was rusted solid.  I had to bend the screw until it broke from fatigue loading.  It took me hours.  By time the spare was on,  the Amway pep rally was over. Praise jesus.


Alright here's another big miracle - since you don't like the small or medium ones... I brought a homeless guy into my house and he ended up inheriting over a million dollars. He now has wrote me in his will as his sole heir

I'm calling troll here.  Andrew is yanking our chain. 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2047
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2013, 11:18:52 AM »
Andrew, why is it that you, who pray for trivial things like help to win a game, always get an answer, but parents with injured children do not? Why do you have help to fix your vehicle, but a cancer victim, praying to stay alive for her children does not? There is enormous suffering in the world, and many of them are devout, loving, and spiritual people, who love god. Why do they not get any of his help for their very real, and much more serious problems?
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline Tonus

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • Darwins +28/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
    • Stuff I draw
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2013, 02:46:37 PM »
Alright here's another big miracle - since you don't like the small or medium ones... I brought a homeless guy into my house and he ended up inheriting over a million dollars. He now has wrote me in his will as his sole heir

Hah, you had me going for a bit there.  I was wondering if Wayne Harropson had gone on a mushroom bender and returned to the forum.  Nice bit of Poe-work.  *golf clap*

Offline Iamrational

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 120
  • Darwins +9/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: I believe because of miracles
« Reply #57 on: May 02, 2013, 02:50:02 PM »
You guys don't encourage these clowns. They just try to get a reaction from us. Likewise to any serious christian, please stop trying to claim everything is a miracle. You have seen dozens of times they get ripped apart by critical thinking.