Author Topic: Mental illness.  (Read 2502 times)

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Offline Mooby

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2013, 06:42:01 PM »
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2013, 07:33:17 PM »
Seems almost identical. C S Lewis's strong point was not critical thinking.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online Azdgari

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2013, 09:04:15 PM »
The argument is self-refuting.  But then, most theistic arguments are.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline kindred

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #32 on: May 09, 2013, 02:53:22 AM »
@mooby

I don't get why the anxiety part is treated as some sort of disorder rather than an attitude problem. Anxiety is easily controllable or at the very least, manageable. I'm not trying to boast or belittle other autistic people that can't cope with it, I'm just sincerely curious.

When I get anxious, I get heart palpitations, my asthma acts up, throat starts to clamp up, I literally start to suffocate and its just a general nuisance. It's hard but rather than shy away from having to deal with unfamiliar people, I got used to'em. It just seems so sub-optimal to have to go around people rather than learning to deal with them. What kind of thought process do these guys go through? Do they like their current situation but want to change for convenience? Do they hate their situation and want to change but can't?
"Keep calm and carry on"

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #33 on: May 09, 2013, 11:15:53 AM »
@mooby
I am not mooby, but am choosing to put in my 2 cents.
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I don't get why the anxiety part is treated as some sort of disorder rather than an attitude problem. Anxiety is easily controllable or at the very least, manageable. I'm not trying to boast or belittle other autistic people that can't cope with it, I'm just sincerely curious.
It isn't quite that simple or that easy.  It partly depends on the root of the anxiety.
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When I get anxious, I get heart palpitations, my asthma acts up, throat starts to clamp up, I literally start to suffocate and its just a general nuisance.

Sometimes asthmatic s/s and breathing difficulties are the source rather than the sign of anxiety. Breathing management exercises and treatments can be helpful in those situations.

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It's hard but rather than shy away from having to deal with unfamiliar people, I got used to'em. It just seems so sub-optimal to have to go around people rather than learning to deal with them.

That sounds a form of social anxiety and you seem to have found a healthy way to deal with it.

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What kind of thought process do these guys go through? Do they like their current situation but want to change for convenience? Do they hate their situation and want to change but can't?
That varies as much as the many different people who suffer from different forms of anxiety.  I certainly wouldn't tell a soldier who is suffering from PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder) after watching half his squad die that he had an attitude problem.  I wouldn't tell a young woman who was repeatedly raped by her step father and was anxious around men that she should get used to it.  Those are extreme examples.  On the milder end of the spectrum behavior therapy can be effective if the person is open to it.  I had a patient with COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease) who used to call 911 and end up in the hospital every time she had trouble breathing.  She would become so afraid and anxious that her breathing would become out of control.  I taught her exercises to slow her breathing down and keep it even and she was able to stay out of the hospital.  But she worked very hard at it.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline tapdancingcow

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #34 on: May 09, 2013, 11:20:05 AM »
Thanks for bring this topic up. Please be patient reading this saga.

 I've had first hand experience with mental illness.  Three years ago my son was diagnosed with schizophrenia.  He was hearing voices, paranoid and very depressed and asked me if he could see a good psychologist and psychiatrist.  It was earth shattering for our family.  He was put on anti depressants and an antipsychotic and I made sure he kept taking the medications.  The longer he was on the antipsychotic medication the less he had to take but it's hard at first because the side effects are difficult to live with.  As time has progressed his diagnosis was changed to psychotic depression which has some of the same aspects of schizophrenia but not as severe.

One of the most difficult things to deal with is finding a good psychologist who has experience with  psychosis.  There are hundreds of psychologists and even psychiatrists who are kinda hippy-dippy.  They have aspect of zen in their therapy or something.  It's hard to explain but it's one of those "I know it when I see it" kind of things.

We finally found an older doctor who has experience and through alot of therapy is slowly making progress. 

My husband and I were puzzled by all this.  Where did this psychosis come from?  He seemed happy growing up, though not a super masculine boy, he was more interested in reading.  No one in our family has has any kind of psychosis.  There are a few "characters" in our families but nothing out of the ordinary.

Turns out our son is transgender.   And has been dealing secretly with this since childhood.  Which has caused the psychosis.   My husband and I wondered if the psychosis caused the feelings of being transgender but his psychologist, who has had a great deal of experience with transgender people, recognized the problem almost immediately as the other way around. 

And yes, transgender is a real thing.  It's been around for eons going back to cave days. The brain is wired female, the body is male.  Too many female hormones during pregnancy.

So may I ask you all a question.  How do we deal with our religious neighbors, many of whom have know our son/daughter from babyhood?   I'm sure most will blame it on our never going to church, especially  the Mormons (!)two houses down from us!!!

Gotta say, we have been raked over the coals for the last few years.

Comments are welcome.

Tapdancingcow

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2013, 11:42:02 AM »

One of the most difficult things to deal with is finding a good psychologist who has experience with  psychosis. 
Finding the right therapist is almost as hard as finding the right life-partner.  :P
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We finally found an older doctor who has experience and through alot of therapy is slowly making progress. 
Excellent!
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So may I ask you all a question.  How do we deal with our religious neighbors, many of whom have know our son/daughter from babyhood?   I'm sure most will blame it on our never going to church, especially  the Mormons (!)two houses down from us!!!

Anyone who is a true friend will accept your son for who he is.  Anyone who condemns him is not worth your time.  Don't discount someone just because they appear "religious" unless their behavior and actions have already demonstrated that they are judgmental and closed minded.  I am a Christian and I don't judge anyone until they piss me off.   :D But I am not a tame Christian.   ;)

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Gotta say, we have been raked over the coals for the last few years.

I'm sorry for what you have had to go through.  Things will get better as you are able to get to know your son as he is free to behave as his true self.

Welcome to the forum.  I am the crazy theist and comic relief.







It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Heisenburger

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2013, 12:31:15 PM »
Transgender is such a touchy subject in this world. It's uplifting to know he has amazing support, and critics be damned. Every mental issue has some sort of stigma I think. I can understand the fear of coming out and how scary it is when you start realizing your sexual identity. If I was a woman inside, my parents would be pro-choice.
As for mental illness in general, I think it's made worse by religion and the overwhelming guilt we receive if we're anything but straight and their version of sane. I experienced it firsthand.
Schizophrenia runs in my family. My biological grandfather was a suicide. My mother gave me up to her mother and stepfather. I was scared to death to tell them I was bi. Same with my doubt in god and suicidal thoughts. Their solution to my confession? They performed deliverance (evangelical for exorcism) on me. They told a potentially schizophrenic child he had demons in him. These demons have special names: homosexuality, depression, suicide, anger, rage, etc. Everything negative about you, even base emotions, are actually demons by that name! I went through countless deliverances that never worked, and their reason why? I succumbed to temptation and let them possess me again. The buybull says these demons come back in with seven more, so eventually you'll have thousands in you. Conclusion for my first 28 years:  I am an evil, crazy faggot. I am going to hell, and it's all my fault for letting them possess me in the first place.  As an atheist, in my unique case, I no longer require medication. Turns out, my grandparents were the crazy ones all along.
Sorry, rant over >:(
“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.”  -Richard Pryor

Offline Mooby

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2013, 01:16:46 PM »
I don't get why the anxiety part is treated as some sort of disorder rather than an attitude problem.
Anxiety is neither a disorder nor an attitude problem.  It is a mood, and as such is experienced by most people at some point in their lives.

However, unusually high levels of anxiety can be a symptom of one of many different diseases.  You are thinking of Generalized Anxiety Disorder, which is just one of an entire group of psychiatric disorders that have unusually high levels of anxiety as a symptom.

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Anxiety is easily controllable or at the very least, manageable. I'm not trying to boast or belittle other autistic people that can't cope with it, I'm just sincerely curious.
First off, as someone diagnosed with autism, you should be aware that autism is a spectrum disorder.  The experiences that you have with autism are specific only to those who fall in the same spot on the spectrum as you.

Secondly, you're engaging in what I like to call "comparative medicine."  Basically, since your knowledge of a specific disease or symptom is limited to your own experiences or those of your family/friends, you think that your experience applies to everyone in the world.  More often than not, this is dead wrong. 

I get this all the time: "Last year I had a sore throat and was given an antibiotic and got better.  Now you're telling me it's this virus thing and you won't give me anything for it?  Why can't I just have the same antibiotic?"  (The patient erroneously believes that this year's sore throat is the exact same as last years, while the doctor knows that sore throats can have many different causes and that antibiotics only help with sore throats caused by bacteria.)

Here is how I read your sentence: "My anxiety is easily controllable or at the very least, manageable."  Good, then your anxiety probably does not require medical treatment.  However, Jane's anxiety might not be as easily controlled, and thus she may benefit from medical treatment.

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When I get anxious, I get heart palpitations, my asthma acts up, throat starts to clamp up, I literally start to suffocate and its just a general nuisance.
First off, that's not anxiety.  That's a panic attack (a.k.a. anxiety attack.)

Secondly, I'm not sure where this double standard for psychiatry comes from:
- "Oh, your atopic dermatitis is itching badly?  Here's a cream to help with that."
- "Oh dear, your carpal tunnel syndrome is making it difficult to type at work?  You might be a candidate for surgery."
- "Oh no!  Your migraine headache is making it difficult for you to concentrate in class?  Here, try this anti-migraine pill."
- "Oh no!  You had a panic attack in the middle of a business meeting?  Well then you'd better suck it up and adjust your attitude!"

Psychiatric disorders are not something to be ashamed of.  Treatment is not a sign of failure.  Treatment is not a sign of weakness.  Treatment is not a last resort.  Treatment is treatment.

This reminds me of a Jehovah's Witness who was telling me about a woman who boldly refused a blood transfusion, despite having dangerously low blood counts and unstable vital signs (that's bad.)  She spent several days in the ICU with her family praying over her until she made a full recovery without a transfusion!  Victory for the JWs!

My first thought was that I'd have just gotten the transfusion early on and skipped the whole part about almost dying, spending several days in the ICU (which costs loads of money and takes away a bed), and risking severe complications later on.  What that JW saw as a triumph, I saw as a failure.  Because, see, when the treatment is evil, then refusing the treatment and pulling through in spite of it is a victory.  But when the treatment is just a treatment, there's no glory in avoiding it for the sake of avoiding it.

We, as a species, need to get out of this mindset that treating mental illness is a bad thing.

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What kind of thought process do these guys go through? Do they like their current situation but want to change for convenience? Do they hate their situation and want to change but can't?
It's my experience that most people who seek treatment for a disease do not like that disease; otherwise, why would they want to treat it?  "Hey doc, I really like this anxiety.  Can you take it away?"

What you have to remember is that with many psychiatric disorders based on moods (such as mood disorders or anxiety disorders), the problem isn't the mood itself.  For instance, most people experience the mood depression, but not everyone has Major Depressive Disorder.  That's because normally the body regulates moods: you feel depressed for a day or two, then your body adjusts and you feel ok again.  The disorder comes in when the body can no longer compensate: you have a depressed mood that does not go away, nothing makes it better, and it seems to be getting worse.  Or you have this anxiety that keeps getting triggered, you don't know why, and you rarely (if ever) return to feeling "ok."

I think the problem many people have with psychiatric disorders (particularly mood disorders) is that they don't have the disorder.  When they get depressed, they are able to cope with it, because they don't have Major Depressive Disorder.  They can't understand why a person who is sick cannot respond the same way as people who are not sick.

So here's a project:
- The next time you have a single loose bowel movement in a day, write a detailed journal entry about your experience and how you coped with it.
- Then, the next time you get a stomach flu, write a detailed journal energy about your bowel movements (ignore the vomiting if you can) and how you're coping with it.
- Compare the two entries.

I think you'll find that there's a huge difference between the normal variation of human experience and disease. 
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 01:20:48 PM by Mooby »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2013, 01:19:26 PM »

As for mental illness in general, I think it's made worse by religion and the overwhelming guilt we receive if we're anything but straight and their version of sane. I experienced it firsthand.

I'm sorry you had to deal with some very sick, unenlightened people.  I rarely "preach" or get much into theistic discussions.  I understand the lack of scientific proof for theism and don't care to debate about it.  But all Christians are not stupid or cruel people.  And I do feel obliged to defend that.

This statement is printed in every bulletin (programme) for every church service at the church I attend:  "STATEMENT OF INCLUSIVITY:  Convinced of God's Grace, we affirm that there can be no exclusiveness in the body of Christ.  We welcome all regardless of race, ethnic heritage, national origin, age, gender, marital status, sexual orientation, or socioeconomic standing; and we encourage the full participation of all in the life of our congregation."

I realize that there are numerous quotations in the Bible that can be thrown at me to contradict inclusivity.  We choose to follow the directions given to love and to serve.  Our mission is not to convert; but to feed those who are hungry, clothe those who need clothing, find shelter for those who are homeless, provide school supplies for inner city kids...

end of mini-rant. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Heisenburger

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #39 on: May 09, 2013, 02:07:39 PM »

As for mental illness in general, I think it's made worse by religion and the overwhelming guilt we receive if we're anything but straight and their version of sane. I experienced it firsthand.

I'm sorry you had to deal with some very sick, unenlightened people.  I rarely "preach" or get much into theistic discussions.  I understand the lack of scientific proof for theism and don't care to debate about it.  But all Christians are not stupid or cruel people.  And I do feel obliged to defend that.
 

Sorry I should've clarified. I don't try to deconvert my friends and family (all Christian) and none try to sway me except my grandparents. We all live and let live except for those two. My problem is Christians (or any other faith) who cause serious harm to others. Whether you're waterboarding your son with holy water or flying a plane into a building, you're sick and unenlightened.
My former pastor is the most loving man I know. He is a true image of the same Christ my grandfather claims. He runs the only food bank in town. He helps everyone he can no matter what. Not all Christians are evil. Not all Muslims are either. Any belief system, however, can do terrible damage. Based on your perspective I would be doing damage by deconverting someone. They would go to hell. I have my own reasons it's unethical for me to do that. If I made my preacher grandfather lose faith, I would have taken away the purpose he dedicated his entire life to, no doubt traumatizing his mental health like he did me. An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.  In the end, we are all on a giant rock floating through space, and nothing will change an individual's belief's but the individual. We'll all search and discover. We just need to stop harming eachother over "I'm right and you're wrong!"
« Last Edit: May 09, 2013, 02:10:07 PM by Heisenburger »
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Offline tapdancingcow

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #40 on: May 09, 2013, 02:56:23 PM »
Heisenburger,  It must have been extremely difficult situation for you growing up.  I can't imagine. 

My son, now my daughter, would have committed suicide if he had grown up in a conservative religious family.  No doubt about it.  He told me not long ago that when he was 7 and 8 years old he tried to learn how to walk like the superheros in cartoons and on film so he would be more masculine.  It broke my heart to hear that.
 
Sure, my husband and I would have had a difficult time dealing with a transgender child but we would have accepted him or her.  My husbands family, however, is rather conservative and religious so we haven't even told them.  They live 2000 miles away.

There is such a huge sexual spectrum across humanity.  It isn't a rigid, set in stone, kind of thing which, Heisenburger, you probably know.  Not everyone fits into the John Wayne or Marilyn Monroe scenerio.   It's too bad that people don't realize how natural that is.  And when religion is mixed with sexuality it destroys lives.

Anyway, we are trying to get used to the different pronouns for our daughter.  It's hard and it will take a while but we'll get there and as we progress she seems to get better.

Tap

Offline Heisenburger

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #41 on: May 09, 2013, 03:23:51 PM »
I didn't want to step on your toes by using "she" before you did on the thread. If you did, I apologize for missing it. My only experience has been horror stories (bigotry, etc.) from documentaries and news programs. It's like most issues of equal rights. No one wants to discuss it until it affects them or those they love. I hate the term gender identity crisis. Your child knows who she is. The only crisis is ignorance, by anyone, to their fellow humans.

 There are two types of male oysters, and one of them can change genders at will. And before man crawled out of the muck, maybe he had the same option. Maybe originally we were supposed to be able to switch genders, and being born with just one sex... is a mutation.

Gil Grisholm (CSI:  "Ch-Ch-Changes")
“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.”  -Richard Pryor

Offline Jag

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #42 on: May 09, 2013, 05:06:51 PM »
Psychiatric disorders are not something to be ashamed of.  Treatment is not a sign of failure.  Treatment is not a sign of weakness.  Treatment is not a last resort.  Treatment is treatment.

Mooby, the entire post was excellent, but this part in particular can not be said enough. Thank you for lending your literal expertise to the matter. If more people could see it this way, there would be far fewer people driven to suicide, or living in unnecessary misery.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Jag

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #43 on: May 09, 2013, 05:38:02 PM »
LoriPinkAngel, I'm glad you continue to hang out here. Truly.

Tap and Heisenburger, thank you both for sharing your stories.

Tap, I just did a presentation on transgender (-ism?) for a class, and researched the biology behind it. There's been so much new information on this in the last 5-6 years (The Netherlands in particular) I was almost overwhelmed trying to make sense of the science - it's fascinating to read about, but very troubling to consider the implications on the real human lives affected. Heartbreaking stories and so much mis-information in the real world. I literally cried more than once preparing for the speech. I can't begin to imagine what your daughter went through and am so pleased that she has parents who are willing and able to provide the love and support she needs.

I have no good ideas about how to deal with the rest of the family, but I bet there are internet resources that would be useful - off the top of my head, try this guy, and Natalie Reed. He's funny and she's less so, but I'm confident that this topic has been addressed by each of them, and likely in depth (Natalie in particular).

Heisenburger, all I can say is I'm pleased that you found your way here. You took a difficult childhood and used that experience to decide to be compassionate. The world, or the rock hurtling through space if you prefer, needs more people making that choice so thank you for being one of them.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline tapdancingcow

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #44 on: May 09, 2013, 08:35:58 PM »
Jag,

Thank you for your kind thoughts and references to links on the internet.

I would be interested in the presentation you did and the science behind your research.  I have poured over the internet for information and research.  Have you heard of the finger length ratio and hormone influence?   http://www.viewzone.com/fingers.html

I'll bet everyone who checked out the link is now measuring their index and ring finger!

It's fascinating. My daughter's hand is extremely feminine in that the ratio of the ring to index finger is quite different.  It's an indicator that there was some heavy estrogen influence during my pregnancy.

One thing that is apparent is my daughter doesn't want to stand out in the crowd.  She want's to fit in as female.  Many people get confused between transgender and drag queens.  From what I've read a drag queen is more of a night club review or guys that like to dress up for fun and go clubbing.  It's almost the opposite of most transgenders who just want a nice quiet life. 

Heisenburger, I didn't know about oysters.  That's interesting and no you didn't step on my toes at all using "she".  I'm still getting used to  "she" and "her" myself and revert back to "him" way too often.

You must have gone through hell when you were a kid.  I can't imagine the pain. 

Tap


Offline Heisenburger

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #45 on: May 09, 2013, 09:43:44 PM »
Tap,
My hands are totally gay(!), and soft, no matter my construction industry past :laugh:  That CSI episode (ch-ch-changes) hopefully changed a few minds. Fictional shows with high ratings have the liberty of saying what they want more than journalism, unless it's Fox news.

Jag,
Thank you for your kind words. I may get a bit angry because this is my only outlet to share my experience, as I live in East Texas.  I'm the only atheist I've found :)  "We are all on a giant rock floating through space" = "We are all equal."  It's my response when I hear intolerance.

Magicmiles,
The C.S. Lewis quote is the best thing I've read as far as why one believes. Share it with your brothers and sisters if you haven't. I'm sharing it with my Christian family members. Thank you for posting it here.
“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.”  -Richard Pryor

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2013, 10:34:39 PM »
So, my hands are gay.  I suck at Math but am a Musician and love Science.  I do find women very aesthetically pleasing but my BF has irreplaceable skills.   :laugh:
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Heisenburger

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2013, 10:55:23 PM »
So, my hands are gay.  I suck at Math but am a Musician and love Science.  I do find women very aesthetically pleasing but my BF has irreplaceable skills.   :laugh:

Women are way more aesthetically pleasing.  Where to post a female president thread, now that I think of it?
“The reason people use a crucifix against vampires is because vampires are allergic to bullshit.”  -Richard Pryor

Offline Jag

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2013, 08:24:37 AM »
Tap,

Quick primer on drag queen versus transgender (according to my research): drag queen = cross dresser, but does not necessarily = transgender.

The word transgender is often applied to cross dressers, but it's inaccurate. A cross dresser prefers the opposite gender clothing and may be either fully committed to the role or only in selective circumstances, like a club venue, or a show. They are not always transgender, it varies by individual. Again, citing my research, the majority of transgender people do not want to draw attention to themselves, they prefer to blend in with their chosen gender expression, whether pre- or post-op - or with no intention of surgical reassignment whatsoever.

All of my scientific data research was done on a school database that requires a student id number to access. Give me a few days and I'll pull out the sources I used and get them into a format I can share with you - I've got finals till the middle of next week, so it will be a while. I think I have a Powerpoint with some info on hormones and their influence on my hard drive though - I'll send it to you. It was a group presentation, so I only have my portion available (but I did the biology portion of it, so I have access to all of that).

Also, in the meantime, you can try a Google search on DF Swaab (Dutch neurobiologist), or the Dutch Brainbank - there's been a lot of research done by this organization and i used it heavily in my preparation. Also try TED talks for more information - the link goes directly to search results for TED talks on this topic. I haven't watched any of them, but I often find this resource to be very useful in helping me make sense of complex issues. Straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Online Mrjason

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2013, 08:45:11 AM »
Eddie Izzard (a well known british cross dresser and comedian) describes himself as a "Lesbian trapped in a man's body"
I think of this when drawing a comparison to drag queen versus transgender

Offline Jag

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #50 on: May 10, 2013, 09:02:14 AM »
Which is true for Eddie Izzard, but not universally true. That's what tends to trip people up.

Natalie Reed (MtF transgender) states it thus:
•   Sexual orientation is with whom, whether and how you like to have sex.
•   Gender expression is how you express yourself in relation to gendered concepts (your relative “masculinity” and “femininity”, as well as whether you dress “like a boy” or “like a girl”, that kind of thing)
•   Physiological sex is how your body is configured in relation to gendered anatomy (like your chromosomes, your hormones, your breasts or lack thereof, your body and facial hair or lack thereof, and whether you have an innie or an outie).
•   Gender identity is the part of your gender that’s not any of that, and would stay the same even if that stuff changed.

It's complicated.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Jag

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #51 on: May 10, 2013, 09:09:27 AM »
It occurs to me that I've been talking about sex a lot lately. I ought to make something else clear - I've spent most of this semester researching, writing or speaking about:abortion, same sex marriage, transgender discrimination, and sex in the media. Totally coincidental, but damn I feel like I've been up to my eyeballs in other people's sex lives.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline tapdancingcow

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #52 on: May 10, 2013, 11:06:17 AM »
That's funny Jag.  Keep up the good work!

Tap

Offline Tonus

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #53 on: May 10, 2013, 11:16:34 AM »
It occurs to me that I've been talking about sex a lot lately. I ought to make something else clear - I've spent most of this semester researching, writing or speaking about:abortion, same sex marriage, transgender discrimination, and sex in the media. Totally coincidental, but damn I feel like I've been up to my eyeballs in other people's sex lives.

Jeez... what are you, Catholic???

Offline Jag

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #54 on: May 10, 2013, 11:33:27 AM »
^^^I used to refer to myself on occasion as a recovering former catholic - now I just call myself an atheist. Proof yet again that the fact of my atheism should have been apparent long before it was.

Weird observations from this deep dive into other people's sex lives: for the most part, I've gotten very little push-back from Catholics in particular, although it's worth noting that I'm 46 years old, and attending a local community college, so I'm somewhat anomalous in most of my classes (and I get a lot of unmerited respect because I'm older than most of my fellow students). Another one is that middle age appears to be where the trend toward acceptance becomes noticeable - I've encountered about a 50/50 split among my chronological peers, with much more tolerance and acceptance from about 40 and younger. Finally, when push comes to shove, almost inevitably, the root of any resistance turns out to be biblical. That's led to some... lively discussion in my poli-sci class on the US Constitution. I haven't actually yelled at anyone yet, and the semester is almost over - I'm pretty proud of that  :).
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Mental illness.
« Reply #55 on: May 10, 2013, 01:46:42 PM »
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.