Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 38328 times)

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Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #841 on: August 06, 2013, 02:55:08 AM »
I had a roommate once, serious bible-thumper, who believed that belief was all that was required for salvation -- no acts were required for you to be saved, and conversely, there were also no acts you could perform that would condemn you.  Your entire final judgment was based solely on whether you believed in Yahweh.  So in his case, at least, I can see how it would work.

Except the contradiction here is that according to most Christian theology "believing" is something you actively have to do. So then you DO have to do something to get into heaven (namely "keep believing"). And for those who say, "Faith is a gift from God. We don't do anything. God does it in us" I must respond by pointing out that if this is the case then under Christian theology there is no free choice either. God is a big hiding mafia boss who arbitrary creates everyone as "fallen sinners" (on their way to hell), and arbitrary chooses to "give" some people "faith" to be "saved". So much for God supposedly giving us freewill Christians!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #842 on: August 06, 2013, 10:50:18 AM »
^^^Ah, but you see, in order for god to give you the gift of faith, you have to be in the proper frame of mind to receive it. We atheists have hardened our hearts against god and have never sincerely invited him into our hearts. That's why we don't receive this freely given gift. Because we love sin.

Or some such bullsh!t.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #843 on: August 06, 2013, 11:59:00 AM »
I'm going to admit something which will probably make any theist here jump up and say "I told you so!"....Because in some ways, it would be really nice to  have unshakable faith in a loving god and an afterlife. And there have been a few times over the years that I've dipped my toe into the whole born again mentality to see what the water was like, as it were. And there was one time where I did seem to feel a sort of peace, which I'm 99.9% sure was due to some kind of placebo effect, and saw a few coincidences in the weeks following, which I'm just as sure were due to a confirmation bias, but there was always a huge roadblock to running with it. Because if I did, I might become one of "those" people.

The thought of letting rationality go and basing my entire existence around god; of spouting scripture for every occasion; of living life in a state which I could only attribute in others to some sort of self-hypnosis frankly repulsed me.

Ah, Satan's hand, the Christian would say.

Whatever you want to call it, the instinct to remain rational always overrode any temptation to drink the kool aid. 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #844 on: August 06, 2013, 02:42:36 PM »
Nope.  If someone TRULY believed that god was seeing everything they did, sin would simply be impossible for them.

But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.

   

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #845 on: August 06, 2013, 02:45:25 PM »

Yes I did.  You just weren't watching me as I evaluated Christianity for 30 years
before being born again.

Wow, really now? So for 30 years you carefully, critically, and honestly evaluated Christianity (and it's claims) in a disinterested fashion (like you would a salesman at your door) and somehow came to the conclusion that it's miraculous claims are true?

That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that. 

Offline Graybeard

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #846 on: August 06, 2013, 04:11:58 PM »
That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that.
In fact, there is remarkably little objective evidence for an historical Jesus. Of course, you can always ignore the lack of evidence or explain it away. But the fact remains that anyone really raising someone from the dead (Lazarus, et al), walking on water, and coming back alive from a Roman judicial execution, would have been noted by the Romans and other diarists and reporters... yet nobody does.

I think you will agree, based upon the evidence, that the very best that can be said is that Jesus was an unimportant local fundamentalist who simply annoyed people.

You will quote Josephus et al and I will then show you a list of reasonably reliable reporters who were around at the time and completely missed all the miracles.

Let's assume that someone in Colorado was executed and then came back from the dead amidst earthquakes and dead men rising from their graves and then this dead guy floated up to heaven... It would make world news, right? Well, the Romans took an interest in that sort of thing.

RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Online nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #847 on: August 06, 2013, 04:39:52 PM »
Nope.  If someone TRULY believed that god was seeing everything they did, sin would simply be impossible for them.

But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.
   

Yes, most of us do things that we know are wrong from time to time. Even sometimes when others are watching. But really big time no-nos, like stealing, murder and adultery? People don't usually do that stuff in front of witnesses. People who say they believe in god are just as likely to slow down in front of the cops as anyone else.

The question here is, do religious people really believe that there is an all-powerful supernatural judge watching them at all times? Because they do not act as if they do. They behave differently in private (with only god watching) than they act front of god plus the boss, god plus the spouse, god plus the police.

Since god is supposed to be even more powerful and important than any human observer, why don't believers behave themselves when god alone, but nobody human, is watching?If the Catholic hierarchy really believed that god was watching them, there should not be a scandal-- and coverup-- of pedophile priests. If people really believed, how could they possibly molest kids, use illegal drugs or sleep with prostitutes? Believers should literally be putting out their eyes instead of looking at porn, and cutting off the offending body parts to prevent related sins. But even a Shia Amish Bodhisattva would find that crazy.   
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #848 on: August 07, 2013, 01:15:13 AM »
But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
Do you actually know a single person who dutifully obeys the speed limit until he sees a cop, at which point he guns it so as to be sure the cop sees him speeding? Yeah, I didn't think so. Now, I have occasionally been running a few miles over the limit, and therefore technically speeding, and not slowed down when I saw a cop, but only because I was reasonably sure he wouldn't come after me for doing 5 over when there would be someone doing 15 over coming along soon. It takes the same amount of time to write a 5 over ticket as a 15 over ticket, so the vast majority of cops will ignore 5 over to maximize revenue by only going after 15+ over. Do you think god usually ignores the adulterers and graven image makers but always drops the hammer on the murderers and baby rapers? If not, then you've made a false analogy.
Quote
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
No, they drink and drive knowing the potential consequences. There is always the possibility they will make it home without being pulled over or causing an accident. Again, unless you believe in a god that is either not omniscient or or does not persecute all sin consistently, this is another false analogy.
Quote
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
I think we already covered this one above.
Quote
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.   
The reason people break the laws of the land is because they think they can do so without either getting caught or getting punished, which would not be possible in the case of an all-knowing god. So you've not answered the question. Why would someone who truly believes god is omniscient ever sin?
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Online nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #849 on: August 07, 2013, 01:47:48 AM »
^^^That is exactly what I am trying to get across.

Believers who would never try to steal a car in front of the police will commit sins against god-- right in front of god. Clearly, they are afraid of getting caught by the police, but not afraid of getting caught by god. Because they secretly know god ain't really watching.

I mean, really, how could anyone have sex-- married, single, gay or in whatever configurations-- if they thought god was looking on? Talk about performance anxiety.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #850 on: August 07, 2013, 03:47:22 AM »
But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.

Christians aren't sure about what infractions cause what punishment. As far as the religion is concerned, there is only heaven or hell. (Catholics pulled purgatory out of their arse.)

Nobody seems to take Jesus seriously, when he says that looking at another woman in lust after divorce will send you to hell, because the JeSuS who said that, was the pre-Paul JeSUs, who had different beliefs, to the post-Paul jEsuS, who couldn't speak about how he was saving you, by belief in his resurrection, because he hadn't done it yet, or even thought of it. If had said it while he was alive, he would have been stoned, anyway. Talking securely from his new-dead perspective, he could re-invent himself, through Paul. His new position was, "whatever Paul says". Unfortunately, nobody can figure out what Paul said, either.

Thus, Christians vacillate between believing that anything might send them to hell, or nothing will.

Since they have already sinned in the past, then it would be illogical to believe that they were now going to hell, since they don't want to believe that. By induction, if they got away with the previous sin, then they must be able to get away with the next one. UNLESS, they are wrong, and the first sin sent them to hell already, then there is no harm in sinning again, because they are already going to hell.

Since both positions are impossible, or unlikely, the middle path, where they can get away with anything they believe they can get away with, must be the correct one.

Quote
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.

Unless they are really drunk.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #851 on: August 08, 2013, 02:47:31 AM »
Nope.  If someone TRULY believed that god was seeing everything they did, sin would simply be impossible for them.

But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.
 

Nogods, Dumpster, and Add have picked up most of the points I want to say about this.  So I'll just ask the direct question.

Sky, when YOU last sinned, how did it happen?  Had you "forgotten" your god existed and was omnipresent?  Or were you hoping that maybe he was distracted and would somehow miss seeing you sin?

Genuinely curious, because from what you've said above, genuine total believers like yourself know exactly what your god wants from you, but sometimes you deliberately disobey.  How does that work for you?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #852 on: August 08, 2013, 04:37:54 PM »
I think the people who really believe, hook line and sinker, are folks the rest of the world considers to be complete nutters: Moonies, hermits who live in caves, Hindu mystics who put hooks in themselves, barefoot black guys with matted dreads who sell incense on the subway for Jah, Filipinos who get nailed to crosses, Mexican women who pray to the Virgin Mary image they see on their tortillas,  the 9/11 hijackers, Tom Cruise.

There's a guy around here who stands at a busy intersection wearing a sandwich board with bible verses on it. There's another guy who is always on the highway overpass holding a big sign that says JESUS. (As if nobody would know about the bible or Jesus if not for them and their signs...)There's yet another guy-- why is it always guys?-- who walks up and down the street dragging a gigantic wooden cross. I think they really believe.

I'll bet a lot of people are just pretending to believe, and the rest are trying hard to believe, but having a difficult time with the whole religion not making sense problem. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #853 on: August 09, 2013, 05:06:34 AM »
I think the people who really believe, hook line and sinker, are folks the rest of the world considers to be complete nutters: Moonies, hermits who live in caves, Hindu mystics who put hooks in themselves, barefoot black guys with matted dreads who sell incense on the subway for Jah, Filipinos who get nailed to crosses, Mexican women who pray to the Virgin Mary image they see on their tortillas,  the 9/11 hijackers, Tom Cruise.

Good point: the chances of a True Believer hanging around an internet forum for atheists is probably pretty small.....unless they were absolutely convinced that that is what their god wants from them.

If I believed.  If I truly BELIEVED.  In a GOD, who made everything and who will determine my eternal afterlife.....well.  Like Jesus said, for example - family and friends would be a poor second.  Working a 9 to 5 would fall by the wayside.  I would cast everything aside to do what my god commanded (or to find out what my god wanted) and trust that - like the sparrows - he would provide for me.

Quote from: Granny Weatherwax
You wouldn't find me just being generally nice in the hope that it'd all turn out right in the end, not if that flame was burning in me like an unforgivin' sword.  And I did say burnin', 'cos that's what it'd be....that's what true faith would mean, y'see?  Sacrificin' your own life, one day at a time, to the flame, declarin' the truth of it, workin' for it, breathin' the soul of it.  That's religion.

Dicking around on the interweb avoiding questions from unbelievers?  VERY low on my priority list.....if I truly believed.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #854 on: August 09, 2013, 07:00:31 AM »
I think the people who really believe, hook line and sinker, are folks the rest of the world considers to be complete nutters: Moonies, hermits who live in caves, Hindu mystics who put hooks in themselves, barefoot black guys with matted dreads who sell incense on the subway for Jah, Filipinos who get nailed to crosses, Mexican women who pray to the Virgin Mary image they see on their tortillas,  the 9/11 hijackers, Tom Cruise.

There's a guy around here who stands at a busy intersection wearing a sandwich board with bible verses on it. There's another guy who is always on the highway overpass holding a big sign that says JESUS. (As if nobody would know about the bible or Jesus if not for them and their signs...)There's yet another guy-- why is it always guys?-- who walks up and down the street dragging a gigantic wooden cross. I think they really believe.

I'll bet a lot of people are just pretending to believe, and the rest are trying hard to believe, but having a difficult time with the whole religion not making sense problem. :P

In total agreement with this...hence the big issue I always had with those few times in my life when I felt that I might step off the deep edge into belief (as I mentioned a few posts back). The "truebelievers" really do tend to be a bunch of loonies, and the thought of being one of them scared me more than the idea of hellfire did, I guess.

Anyway, mostly responding here to the last sentence in the post. I think you really nailed it here. I'd say the vast majority of people out there DO either pretend to believe or try to talk themselves into belief with varying degrees of success. It's like the Emperor's New Clothes. Except that the Emperor in this case is omniscient, and will know if you are only offering lip service, so you'd damn well better SEE those clothes rather than just exclaim over their magnificence.

So between that and seeing everyone around us appear to hold a firm belief, it just becomes something so ingrained as normality that few even bother to examine their doubts. And if they do, it's easy to pass them off as the work of Satan or something, which then leads to more Bible Studies and other attempts to wrangle some sort of cohesiveness into the whole charade. The doubts must be squashed at all costs. But that doesn't mean that they are not still lurking in the subconscious.

Offline JeffPT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #855 on: August 09, 2013, 07:34:42 AM »
That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that.
I'd like to know how many non-Christian sources you looked at in order to get the opposing view.  Have you read any Ehrman?  Carrier?  Armstrong?  Paine?  Because I, too, took the disinterested salesman approach (read the Bible, some Ravi Z., a few apologetics books, and works by the above mentioned authors) and I have to say that it was an absolute landslide victory for the non-belief side. It's not close.  Really it's not.

What literature did you turn to during your 30 year search? 

Also, even if there was a good amount of supporting evidence that the religion was based off of someone who actually existed, there is even less evidence that he was something more than human.  There is zero evidence for that.  Unless you'd like to provide it. And keep in mind... The bible is the claim, not the evidence.  Just the claim.
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Online nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #856 on: August 09, 2013, 12:44:03 PM »
Hey, jynnan tonnix, you aren't the only one tempted by the woo.

When I was a JW kid, I probably sounded like a little nutter to the people we witnessed to house-to-housing. I don't feel bad about that because I did not know anything else. I am not sure if I ever really believed in the woo, since I didn't understand much of what I was taught. As soon as I started thinking critically about it all, at about age 10, that was the beginning of the end. By age 14 I was totally pretending.

What I feel bad about is the two times I went back into the woo as an adult. In college I went to church and joined the campus Christians. I was trying to get this cute Christian boy to like me.  I now realize that I was depressed due to traumatic sh!t that happened to me growing up. I would have been fair game for one of those "love-bombing" cults. I sounded like a nutter, even to myself, when I was talking about sin and Jesus to other people. That phase didn't last long-- and the cute Christian boy turned out to be gay anyway.  :P

Years later, I went "new age" after enduring some other bad stuff. Meditation, "everything happens for a reason," "you create your own reality," all that sh!t that Oprah claims to think. It probably helped me to stay functional back then, but it is still embarrassing to think about it now.

I doubt I am susceptible to any woo now-- I am in therapy and take meds to deal with my issues. Now that I mention it, I wonder how many people would be religious if they had good insurance and/or enough money to pay for real therapy and the right meds for mental problems? Is it a coincidence that so many true believers seem to be nutters, or are they religious because they are nutters:-\
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #857 on: August 09, 2013, 05:43:43 PM »

Yes I did.  You just weren't watching me as I evaluated Christianity for 30 years
before being born again.

Wow, really now? So for 30 years you carefully, critically, and honestly evaluated Christianity (and it's claims) in a disinterested fashion (like you would a salesman at your door) and somehow came to the conclusion that it's miraculous claims are true?

That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that.

I smell lots of FIBBING. What evidence/argument (not emotional needs etc) caused you to accept the miraculous claims in the bible?

It seems you haven't read quite enough when it comes to these questions (see below) especially material that disagrees with your assumption, and I find it interesting that you've been debating with many of us on this forum for quite some time now and have not brought out any of this alleged evidence that you claim convinced you.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/carrier/archives/1794

Finally, why have you lowered your standard of evidence in which to usher in the miraculous for your religion and not the others? It seems you have a double standard. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 05:58:14 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #858 on: August 10, 2013, 01:50:12 AM »
I think he went.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline epidemic

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #859 on: August 12, 2013, 03:12:40 PM »
Nope.  If someone TRULY believed that god was seeing everything they did, sin would simply be impossible for them.

But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.

   

If I truely believed in god, and thought he saw everything I would live a sin free life (well except for sins of the mind but those I would feel guilty about.)

I am able to control my impulses.  I have never walked into a crowed room and spanked my monkey.  I don't yell out loud infront of store security that I am going to steal.  I would not pocket money in front of an IRS agent.

I would not cheat on my wife in front of her. (and probably not behind her back either.)



Noah's kids watched the world destroyed and they sinned immediatly after reaching shore.

Moses's followers wittnessed gods wrath and immediatly began praising other false gods.

You could say that this was a byproduct of humans inability to avoid sin.   I say that it is proof that people did not wittness the grand miracles the bible claims.  I would buy a generation or two later people pushing the envelope,  not having wittnessed such miracles and only knowing of them based on the words of some old coot telling tales as he drifts out of his failing minds dementia.


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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #860 on: August 12, 2013, 04:10:10 PM »
^^^True dat.

People in the bible just don't seem to take the sin thing very seriously. God is walking around like the biggest security guard ever, and these people do way more than shoplift a cuneiform or speed in their chariots.

They lie, kill, steal birthrights, commit adultery and incest. Cain and Abel? Their parents talked to god personally and Cain murders his own brother one generation out of the garden of Eden.  At least one of them had sex with mom. Of course they did not have the 600-plus Ten Commandments (the source of all human rules of law and behavior) yet, but still.[1]

The Jews messed up again and again, even after god sent all the plagues and parted the Red Sea to let them escape. Then Pharoah sent his troops to get Moses, even with all the god-magic decimating Egypt. That makes not a whit of sense.

It's like the bible is just another group of fables and legends or something...
 1. Is there any reason why god had to wait so long before giving people written laws? The bible reads like one long afterthought-- as if it was written by Monty Python characters. "You messed up the part about how they shouldn't put new wine in old wineskins." "No I didn't!" "Yes you did!"
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online One Above All

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #861 on: August 12, 2013, 04:21:27 PM »
It's like the bible is just another group of fables and legends or something...

Uncanny, isn't it?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #862 on: August 13, 2013, 07:23:00 AM »
who here could not control their sins while being watched 24/7 by someone you believe is omnicient, omnipotent and vengeful.

At least sins of the flesh.  the mind is somewhat different.  it is hard to keep a thought from happening buttttt acting on those thoughts is pretty easy to avoid. 


Offline William

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #863 on: August 13, 2013, 07:51:15 AM »
who here could not control their sins while being watched 24/7 by someone you believe is omnicient, omnipotent and vengeful.

My wife is certainly omniscient.
If somebody really hot walks past us my head will not turn ... not even 1/16th of an inch ... but my eyeballs will swivel in their sockets to the point where it's either painful or outside of my binocular vision capabilities, whichever comes first.
Git mit uns

Offline Hatter23

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #864 on: August 13, 2013, 08:11:57 AM »

That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that.

Please direct me to objective evidence. Primary non biased sources.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline epidemic

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #865 on: August 13, 2013, 10:20:02 AM »

That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that.

Please direct me to objective evidence. Primary non biased sources.


not that this is definitive but here is a source that seems to be somewhat unbiased that says some dude named Jesus probably lived and died and probably preached.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #866 on: August 13, 2013, 07:26:10 PM »
who here could not control their sins while being watched 24/7 by someone you believe is omnicient, omnipotent and vengeful.

At least sins of the flesh.  the mind is somewhat different.  it is hard to keep a thought from happening buttttt acting on those thoughts is pretty easy to avoid.

The jails are full of people who disagree with your analysis.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #867 on: August 13, 2013, 07:29:06 PM »

That is correct.  Though I didn't accept all the claims as true.  At first, only that Jesus lived.
There is a fair amount of supporting evidence for that.

Please direct me to objective evidence. Primary non biased sources.

"Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Micjhael Grant 2004 ISBN 1898799881 page 200"

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #868 on: August 13, 2013, 07:33:04 PM »
People in the bible just don't seem to take the sin thing very seriously.

They are the picture of modern man. That's how we know it's accurate.

Database of Priests Accused of Sexual Abuse
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #869 on: August 13, 2013, 07:38:21 PM »
Nope.  If someone TRULY believed that god was seeing everything they did, sin would simply be impossible for them.

But why do: 
People occasionally speed past a police car on purpose.
They drink and drive, knowing the consequences.
They know the speed limit is 65, yet they go 66.
They know killing is wrong.....not for God, but for THEM....yet they do it anyway.
Everything points to a state where we know better, but break even our own rules anyway.

   

If I truely believed in god, and thought he saw everything I would live a sin free life

People still take their own lives.   
Do you suggest they think they will
avoid the consequences of their actions?
They seem unable to resist the urge to
do what is wrong, even to the point of
loosing their own lives in the effort.