Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 43937 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #783 on: July 08, 2013, 04:39:31 PM »
Jesus filled all those promises made in the old testament.
I take it you can't list some of these promises then?

Quote
Once you stop doubting the message, everything clears right up.
In my experience.
So just throw out my bullsh*t detector then?

I have no trouble spotting liars.  My wife has pictures of kids at school.
My record is 5 out of 7 for spotting the good kids and the bad from the
look on their faces.....in a photo.
Well that doesn't make you sound like a prejudicial jerkbag, does it?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #784 on: July 08, 2013, 04:39:58 PM »
But you have a very bad track record of spotting lies in ancient written texts. Wonder why that is. :?

Maybe SW is lying. If doing that is good enough for jesus, it's good enough for us.

I am lying right now ; )   

Use all your logic on that.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #785 on: July 09, 2013, 12:46:23 AM »
Maybe you might try responding honestly to the questions people ask, SW.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #786 on: July 09, 2013, 03:03:32 AM »
I have no trouble spotting liars.  My wife has pictures of kids at school.
My record is 5 out of 7 for spotting the good kids and the bad from the
look on their faces.....in a photo.
Well that doesn't make you sound like a prejudicial jerkbag, does it?

He's just following god's example.  What they were, at one moment in time, is how you should judge them for ever in the future.  It's why Sky is 100% okay with the flood - god decided "those kids are evil now and forever more", and drownded 'em.

Personally, I'm more interested in seeing the detailed notes Sky kept on his judgements and the results that enabled him to give the extremely specific 5 out of 7 success rate.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online bertatberts

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #787 on: July 09, 2013, 04:19:26 AM »
Maybe you might try responding honestly to the questions people ask, SW.
In his defence. He is religious, which makes the above an impossibility.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #788 on: July 09, 2013, 12:14:08 PM »
I have no trouble spotting liars.  My wife has pictures of kids at school.
My record is 5 out of 7 for spotting the good kids and the bad from the
look on their faces.....in a photo.
First off, being able to distinguish between "good kids" and "bad kids" from a photo is not the same as being able to spot liars, or tell when you're being lied to, or tell that something's not true without being an outright lie.  Second, I find your claim here to be exceedingly doubtful.  For one thing, you can't tell whether someone's a liar just from looking at a photo of them; for another, what do you think a poker face is, if not the ability to lie or bluff without giving any tells?  I doubt you've ever had to deal with any skillful liars before, otherwise you wouldn't be blithely claiming that you had no trouble spotting liars.

Indeed, I suspect that you're not very good at spotting liars at all, not if you think you can do so by looking at a photo.  Meaning, you're probably just as bad at picking up on whether something's a lie or untrue.

Offline caveat_imperator

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #789 on: July 09, 2013, 02:10:05 PM »
I am lying right now ; )   

Use all your logic on that.

That won't be too hard. My logic tells me that when you're posting, you're lying. ;)
You can't prove a negative of an existence postulate.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #790 on: July 09, 2013, 02:27:37 PM »
I am lying right now ; )   

Use all your logic on that.

That won't be too hard. My logic tells me that when you're posting, you're lying. ;)
How can you tell he is a liar? He did not post a photo. Now if you saw his face, then you would know for sure he was a liar....

SW is deluded if he thinks he can tell good people from bad by how they look. If only it was that easy; nobody in Germany would have voted for Hitler, nobody would ever get fooled by con men, women would not get date-raped and televangelists would have to get real jobs. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #791 on: July 10, 2013, 07:52:17 AM »
I have no trouble spotting liars.  My wife has pictures of kids at school.
My record is 5 out of 7 for spotting the good kids and the bad from the
look on their faces.....in a photo.
First off, being able to distinguish between "good kids" and "bad kids" from a photo is not the same as being able to spot liars, or tell when you're being lied to, or tell that something's not true without being an outright lie.

O.K.  Then I have two accurate talents.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #792 on: July 10, 2013, 07:58:05 AM »
I am lying right now ; )   

Use all your logic on that.

That won't be too hard. My logic tells me that when you're posting, you're lying. ;)
How can you tell he is a liar? He did not post a photo. Now if you saw his face, then you would know for sure he was a liar....

SW is deluded if he thinks he can tell good people from bad by how they look. If only it was that easy; nobody in Germany would have voted for Hitler, nobody would ever get fooled by con men, women would not get date-raped and televangelists would have to get real jobs. &)   

It's not work for me.  It's a natural talent.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #793 on: July 10, 2013, 08:07:33 AM »
Quote
Jesus filled all those promises made in the old testament.
I take it you can't list some of these promises then?
Quote
JDawg
I can understand your confusion with this topic, but to understand "fulfilling" the law one must look at the requirements that the law established, which starts in Exodus 20 and ends (I think) with the last chapter of Leviticus. The purpose of the law was for man to make himself righteous before God, or as we (Christians) like to say in right standing with God. I wouldn't take you through all the requirements of the law because I can hear the phrase "ain't nobody got time for that" being said. But for example in Lev 4:27-31 it talks about those that commit unintentional sin what must be done to be in right standing with God - a sacrifice had to be made, or Atonement. In contrast if you read Romans chapter 3 you will notice that Christ became the sacrifice thus "fulfilling" the requirements of the law (Rom 3:21-24 is one of the main points). Hope this helps.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #794 on: July 10, 2013, 08:25:43 AM »
I am lying right now ; )   

Use all your logic on that.

That won't be too hard. My logic tells me that when you're posting, you're lying. ;)

I already said I was.  Your logic is sharp.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #795 on: July 10, 2013, 08:26:47 AM »
Quote
Quote from: DT
Granted life may not be in the form as we know it, but given what ever is stopping life from developing should be over come by  billions of years of mutations and evolution.
And it could be billions more before life evolves on Venus. You make the painfully wrong assumption that life will or should have evolved everywhere at the same time. Why!

Not necessarily at the same time, but have some form of life weather that be single celled or some primordial soup forming on planets. If we are being taught that this is a reasonable explanation for us humans getting here, I would think that somewhere, on the time table of evolving, would be observable life forms elsewhere. But it sounds like you take the position that it could be another billion years before this happens, why?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #796 on: July 10, 2013, 08:30:58 AM »
Maybe you might try responding honestly to the questions people ask, SW.

I'll try to be more direct. Sorry. 

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #797 on: July 10, 2013, 08:48:55 AM »
Very true but am I wrong in my thinking that the external environment of any planet should not be able to stop the evolution/mutation process? Meaning chemical X on Venus is stopping life...no worries we got a mutation for that.

This is an excellent question DT  :) - it contains a very reasonable proposition.  The issue is that there is an earlier hurdle to overcome before that kind of molecular evolution process can apply.  Before "mutations" can play any role whatsoever, the earlier conditions must cater for formation of monomers (such as nucleotides) that are capable of spontaneously polymerising into the kinds of polymers that can self-catalyse their own replication with some sequence fidelity.  The sorts of things that help are an aqueous environment, availability of suitable chemical elements, and an energy source.  Those types of early conditions are rare in individual solar systems but highly likely to exist on many planets given the VAST number of solar systems out there similar to ours.
Nicey nice, I think I just got two new wrinkles in my brain. But I understand what your saying, but I must ask another question and excuse my novice-ness in the topic. Can monomers and even polymers exist on there own? Essentially I'm asking do they not support life on a grand scale, and existing by themselves would be obsolete? Such as a glucose molecule if it had the ability to "spontaneously polymerize into the kinds of polymers that can self-catalyse their own replication with some sequence fidelity" would it not still just be a glucose molecule? 

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #798 on: July 10, 2013, 08:54:32 AM »
JDawg
I can understand your confusion with this topic, but to understand "fulfilling" the law one must look at the requirements that the law established, which starts in Exodus 20 and ends (I think) with the last chapter of Leviticus. The purpose of the law was for man to make himself righteous before God, or as we (Christians) like to say in right standing with God. I wouldn't take you through all the requirements of the law because I can hear the phrase "ain't nobody got time for that" being said. But for example in Lev 4:27-31 it talks about those that commit unintentional sin what must be done to be in right standing with God - a sacrifice had to be made, or Atonement. In contrast if you read Romans chapter 3 you will notice that Christ became the sacrifice thus "fulfilling" the requirements of the law (Rom 3:21-24 is one of the main points). Hope this helps.
The language is just really confusing I suppose.  At least in normal parlance, "fulfilling the requirements of the law" would imply that some set of conditions had been established that can enable the law to take effect.  At least that's what words like "requirement" seem to imply.  But clearly that's not what's being talked about here.  If I understand you correctly, what was 'fulfilled' was the intent of the laws - the laws were established to make man righteous before god, but an alternative way (Christ's sacrifice) of fulfilling the intent of the laws was used.  Which is still kinda confusing for a couple o' reasons:
1) It makes the original laws seem rather pointless then.  Which maybe isn't really an issue.
2) Did Christ's sacrifice work?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #799 on: July 10, 2013, 11:40:36 AM »

Nope, I say "it works" meaning "my business works" and im not talking about the "business proposition" is what one would be believing before seeing but the business itself. A proposition or business model is all words and numbers, its not a business yet, so you cant really see the business yet because it isnt there yet, but would you believe the business?

Once again, you keep changing definitions of the term "believe" in order to accomplish your agenda - and I already pointed this out numerous times. Why would you just keep doing this so dishonestly?

Now, testing something BEFORE putting tentative trust (which can easily be changed) into it IS NOT THE SAME as your "faith" in your religion. They are completely different! And this is what you just can't stand to admit b/c it would mean your argument fails miserably. Religious faith is absolutely nothing like trusting the findings of evidence or having a working hypothesis for the purpose of testing. Tentative trust in evidence can easily be changed (based on counter evidence), and it is NOT fixed (like your religious faith is). In fact, I would argue that you do not JUST have faith in your bible. You have a pre-commitment to it in spite of the evidence. Again, that is nothing like testing or tentative trust.


Would you do it if you dont believe it will ever work?(question unanswered)

Stop using the term "believe" in two different ways and maybe we can continue this part of the discussion. Again, testing is NOT the same as believing-no-matter-what (which is what you are doing with your religion).

Testing is already the act of doing it, still comes around the question would you waste your time testing something you believe wont ever work?

Again, stop equivocating on terms. It's irrational and logically invalid. Testing is NOT the same as your faith.


They dont put their money at risk in the first place, when they put out their money, give them products and services that is Value For Their Money, so ROI is immediate, no risk, not Foolish.

I'm glad that you're willing to admit this. Notice how this is NOTHING like your bible - which requires LIFE commitment and devotion - otherwise theirs hell to pay. Again, you are not comparing apples to apples and that's why your argument is a miserable failure.

Now when it comes to Jesus, i wonder why your reply is so Jesus-centric, what do you have against the man really?

The Bibles words i treat as a system for my life to follow, i believe it so i do it and it works.
Some would go all too philosophical and ask if "would you kill your son if god asks you to?"
Im saying that kind of remark shows they just dont get it. Its simply an extreme example of obedience.

No it's not. It's called cherry picking. You (just like most other Christians) are picking n choosing which bible passages to follow and which to ignore. Do you do that with your important business decisions? Again, you aren't being fair in your reasoning. You keep trying to compare apples to oranges. It simply doesn't work.

The alleged god of the bible mandates and endorses: slavery, stoning unruly children, killing homosexuals, human sacrifice, genocide, and infanticide. But since you have a double standard (AND a precommitment to interpreting it favorably) you refuse to see that. If you did that with your business (cherry picking) your business would fail.


Btw, why did you ignore my response to your post regarding what is DEMONSTRABLE?

Again, businesses are demonstrable. Your Yahweh god is not. So they are nothing alike. We have millions of examples of successful businesses. WE DO NOT have such demonstrations of Yahweh deity god 'things' doing anything.

What you are trying to argue here is fundamentally no different from superstition. "My superstitious belief 'works' so it must be true, right!"

WRONG.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 11:43:07 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #800 on: July 10, 2013, 11:58:23 AM »


Jesus came to fulfill the laws so we don't have to follow the OT punishments. 
We follow Gods laws out of Gratitude now.

So you think "fulfilling the laws" means overturning them so you don't have to obey them anymore? Jesus states (allegedly) that not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until ALL be fulfilled. You need to educate yourself on what your own bible states instead of cherry picking verses to support your assumed theology.

Do you follow the Ten Commandments? Those are the Old Testament! You do know that there aren't just 10 laws, don't you? Were gods commandments in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy moral commands?


Matthew 7:1 - "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 19:17 - "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments."


Do you really care whether or not your beliefs are actually true? If so, please demonstrate it b/c thus far it seems you're not really interested in rational discourse or discussion.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:01:46 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #801 on: July 10, 2013, 04:00:32 PM »
Naw, they don't really want to follow the bible. They aren't down with the slavery, polygamy, incest, faith healing, stoning of wrongdoers, strict dietary laws and constant bloody animal sacrifice.

Or else they would live a lot more like the Taliban, the Amish or primitive nomadic tribespeople, and a lot less like, well, like us modern atheists.  :D
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #802 on: July 10, 2013, 05:03:28 PM »
Not necessarily at the same time, but have some form of life weather that be single celled or some primordial soup forming on planets. If we are being taught that this is a reasonable explanation for us humans getting here, I would think that somewhere, on the time table of evolving, would be observable life forms elsewhere. But it sounds like you take the position that it could be another billion years before this happens, why?
We're barely to the point where we can detect extrasolar planets.  Observing life forms on those planets might be just a tiny bit more difficult.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #803 on: July 10, 2013, 09:41:52 PM »
Left up to strict religious folks, we would not even be trying to detect life elsewhere in the universe. They don't want to know.  Just like people did not want to know that the earth revolved around the sun, or that ancient animals had gone extinct, or that apes and people descended from the same common ancestors, or that the earth was billions of years old.

If we find life outside of earth, what does that do to the idea that god made the whole universe special, just for us humans?

I think there would be a whole lotta 'splainin' to do. And a lot of back-pedaling. "Well, that's just a virus/ fungus/bacteria on an asteroid. It's not really life. It doesn't look like Mr. Spock, so it's not an alien life form..." &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline William

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #804 on: July 11, 2013, 06:24:40 AM »
Can monomers and even polymers exist on there own?
They do exist on their own - but not for long - nowdays they are FOOD.

Essentially I'm asking do they not support life on a grand scale, and existing by themselves would be obsolete? Such as a glucose molecule if it had the ability to "spontaneously polymerize into the kinds of polymers that can self-catalyse their own replication with some sequence fidelity" would it not still just be a glucose molecule?
Molecules are just molecules - they have no idea when they are involved in the essential processes of one life form, or just floating around waiting to be be mopped up by another life form, perhaps in a sewerage treatment plant, perhaps in the ocean, perhaps in soil, perhaps on the handrail of a train.  They're just bits of lego.

The organisation of molecules into a life form is only a fleeting eddy in the march of energy and matter to greater entropy. The organisms sheltering in the eddy, parasiting the energy flow, must cheat the corrosive assault by entropy on their own information by making themselves afresh - because their own established systems and bodies age relentlessly, and die.
Git mit uns

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #805 on: July 11, 2013, 03:51:37 PM »


Jesus came to fulfill the laws so we don't have to follow the OT punishments. 
We follow Gods laws out of Gratitude now.

So you think "fulfilling the laws" means overturning them so you don't have to obey them anymore? Jesus states (allegedly) that not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until ALL be fulfilled.

And that he has done that.
http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm



Quote
Do you follow the Ten Commandments? Those are the Old Testament! You do know that there aren't just 10 laws, don't you? Were gods commandments in Exodus, Leviticus, and Deuteronomy moral commands?

I follow Jesus and I follow the OT laws out of respect for the Father.

It's as if Jesus pays all my speeding tickets that I deserve if I ever go above 65mph.
Even though Jesus pays the tickets, I try to avoid speeding.

Quote
Do you really care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?

I know they are.  So that's not an issue.

Quote
If so, please demonstrate it b/c thus far it seems you're not really interested in rational discourse or discussion.


My discourse will seem irrational, I expect.

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." 1 Cor 3:19


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #806 on: July 11, 2013, 04:43:13 PM »
The good thing about the bible/quran/gita/Harry Potter series is that it is really long, so you can probably find a quote for just about any situation.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #807 on: July 11, 2013, 04:49:12 PM »
Left up to strict religious folks, we would not even be trying to detect life elsewhere in the universe. They don't want to know.  Just like people did not want to know that the earth revolved around the sun, or that ancient animals had gone extinct, or that apes and people descended from the same common ancestors, or that the earth was billions of years old.
I don't actually think that's true.  At least not entirely.  It isn't that they don't want to know, it's that they don't care.  As far as they're concerned, we already know everything worth knowing (via the Bible), so they (or many of them, at least) don't see the point in wasting the time and effort of trying to discover things for ourselves, especially when we could be spending that time and effort to do things that they actually do care about.

The fact that many of those discoveries conflict with what we already 'know' just makes things worse.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #808 on: July 11, 2013, 05:11:00 PM »
Left up to strict religious folks, we would not even be trying to detect life elsewhere in the universe. They don't want to know. 

That's a valid hypotheses to examine based on my own experiences as well.
Let us know how your research turns out.  Your results should be interesting to read. 

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #809 on: July 12, 2013, 11:23:23 AM »

So you think "fulfilling the laws" means overturning them so you don't have to obey them anymore? Jesus states (allegedly) that not one jot or tittle of the law will pass away until ALL be fulfilled.

And that he has done that.
http://biblehub.com/matthew/5-17.htm

Really? ALL has been fulfilled? So the second coming is finished and we are now living in the new heaven/new earth time? Hardly. All has NOT been fulfilled, and that is what you are missing. Thus, you are still bound to both the 10 commandments and the other 613 (as Jesus commanded you must do to obey "the father").

It's interesting how you can't see yourself creating your own religion that suits you.

I follow Jesus and I follow the OT laws out of respect for the Father.

It's as if Jesus pays all my speeding tickets that I deserve if I ever go above 65mph.
Even though Jesus pays the tickets, I try to avoid speeding.

Really... So you stone to death your unruly children and homosexuals then?

I know they are.  So that's not an issue.

WOW. That is a strong claim. So now it's not just an opinion. It's a knowledge claim, is it? How exactly do you "know" (and not just believe) your beliefs are true? Where is your demonstrable evidence which gives you this alleged certainty?

Quote
If so, please demonstrate it b/c thus far it seems you're not really interested in rational discourse or discussion.


My discourse will seem irrational, I expect.

It will "seem" irrational, or it will be?

"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." 1 Cor 3:19

So, as has been stated before, you ASSUMED the bible was true from the outset (and quite uncritically so like you did with your other two previous worldviews) and now all you can do is quote bible verses as a conversion attempt? I know what the bible says. I believed, preached, evangelized, and taught it for many years. Quoting the bible isn't going to get you anywhere with me just like a Muslim quoting the Koran isn't going to get them anywhere with me. You need more than just hear-say.

Check your intellectual hypocrisy. It's through the roof.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #810 on: July 12, 2013, 01:00:38 PM »
Left up to strict religious folks, we would not even be trying to detect life elsewhere in the universe. They don't want to know. 

That's a valid hypotheses to examine based on my own experiences as well.
Let us know how your research turns out.  Your results should be interesting to read.

What research?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #811 on: July 12, 2013, 02:46:59 PM »
Left up to strict religious folks, we would not even be trying to detect life elsewhere in the universe. They don't want to know. 

That's a valid hypotheses to examine based on my own experiences as well.
Let us know how your research turns out.  Your results should be interesting to read.

What research?

The data that supports your claim.