Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 40739 times)

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Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #696 on: June 22, 2013, 01:25:43 AM »
Believe First and You Will See

Belief is not what others think as non-negotiable or unchangeable. It can be changed in a slight of a moment, specially when proven wrong.

Believe First...
In business, before you do a certain business, there are alot of belief involved, you believe first you can do it, you believe in your plan, you believe in your partners, you believe you will earn, why? Because you havent started yet. If one says he has a business he doesnt believe in, he is probably making a false claim, why? because you wont do it if you dont believe you can. So everything starts with belief in that aspect.

...then You will See
After you believe you can, then you act on it. After you act, thats when the results come up. Then You See the results of the business.

Absolutely 100% WRONG.

As I said before, I am a business owner. I own and operate 3 separate businesses with 3 separate models. I can tell you, flat out, that you are completely in error with your example. Business people DO NOT "believe first". That is complete and total hogwash. We do research, investigate, study and analyze markets, search for partners/co-interested parties or investors and do our due diligence. Did you do this kind of disinterested and critical research with the bible before believing it wholesale? I think not. It is only AFTER all of that (and then some) that we place TENTATIVE trust in the evidence. This is NOTHING like your "believe first" way of talking about FAITH. They are leagues apart.

If my business partner made an extraordinary claim regarding a "fail-proof" get rich quick investment, and the investment didn't come through (assuming I would even buy in), I would dump the investment quickly. Can you honestly say that you would just as easily dump your "belief" in Jesus when you discovered the miracles he allegedly commanded you to do are not happening? I think not.

No, we do not believe we will earn money "because we haven't started yet". We tentatively trust the evidence based upon analysis and hard work. You are committing the logical fallacy of an Equivocation (do you know what that is?) regarding the word "believe" and are severely wrong. "Believing" for you, IS NOT the same thing as for me.

Where is your evidence and demonstration of this Yahweh deity like we have evidence and demonstrations of successful businesses?


Btw, if your belief in Jesus "can be changed in the slight of a moment, especially when proven wrong" then what would it take to prove you wrong? HINT: Let's see if it's consistent with what we'd expect in business.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:59:37 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #697 on: June 22, 2013, 01:48:18 AM »
Example:
My work is to offer people a way to earn using my business system. If I tell a person, I can make you earn $600 a day with my system, if he believes what i say then he partners up with me and he earns.

To the guy who said this kind of business run to the ground, the business im doing is running with thousands of micro-franchises in 11 countries worldwide and is earning a few Billion a year for 7 years, i earn a few hundred grand from it within just a year. Its a Believe first and you will see business. Believe you can, believe the system, do everything according to the system, then afterwards you will see results. Its looks like the "Believe God's words Do it and you will get Salvation" gig right?

Most people say, your systems looks good but sounds too good to be true (Skeptics). Yes it does, but thats how it works, not the other way around. Doubting and Skepticism is Normal. You doubt you can or you doubt the system. But no person became a businessman by being skeptic or doubtful over everything. Why? Because a True Skeptic wont act on it unless he see something solid, like a bunch of cash coming out of your pockets. And no one earns anything by purely doubting everything.

This is just more of your fallacious reasoning. If you offer me a business opportunity and I ask you, "Why should I consider this opportunity a good one?" the minute you start to give evidence, good reasons, facts, and/or data for your argument we are now past the point of believing before seeing! You seem to think that all evidence is invalid and meaningless - one just has to "have faith" and all will be well, right?

Try this one on for size:

A fast talking salesman knocks at your door. He claims to have a magic potion that will cure all of your ailments (anything at all) on contact. He says it will even make you rich beyond your wildest dreams and that it will make you happier than you've ever been. "But there is just one catch!" he says, "You have to believe first and then you will see." He then asks for your credit card numbers for two of your credit cards, along with any cash you have in your wallet or your wife's purse. "This" he says, "is your sign to me that you really believe."

Sound good? We should BELIEVE FIRST, right?

WRONG.

Your suggestion that we ought to believe first, before seeing, is an epic failure. And if you truly believe that garbage then guess what? I've got swampland in Arizona to sell you! At a great price of course. Just believe first (with a wire transfer of $100,000) and I'll release the property into your ownership. It's prime real estate!

« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:56:44 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #698 on: June 22, 2013, 02:33:48 AM »
Anyways, Thats the reason why I say there are no real Atheists, simply Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not. This being based on the replies i got from you guys like the "i dont know" stand and the "Unicorn" stand.


This is b/c you do not understand what being an atheist means (i.e. - simply a lack of belief in a god). Had you asked us maybe we would have informed you on our position.

If Im not mistaken, Unicorn means Single Horn, right? If so then yes I believe such an animal exists. Others have just come to the conclusion that unicorn means horses with a horn. But it is something that resembles or looks like a horse according to the definition of the legends. It might well be a rhino, depending on the idea of the guy who saw it first. Its like Santa on a Christmas eve, you saw him putting gifts under your tree when you were a kid so you say there is a Santa. Some others didnt see so they say no there is none. The fact is there is one who looks or resemble Santa who put gift under your tree. The Main Question is; Does he exist? YES that guy who put that gift exists, whatever you might call him.

Congratulations. You've just managed to explain two supernatural claims (unicorns and Santa Claus) in naturalistic terms! Now, just do that with your God (just like Santa and Unicorns) and you'll be an atheist like us!

If you're willing to admit that there is no supernatural/magical flying horse, and that there is no supernatural Santa Claus, then are you also willing to admit that there is no supernatural God? Take the supernatural out of your God and what do you have? Man-made fiction (just like magic Santa and Unicorns). 

As For God
Some say he exists, some say maybe he exists, some say i dont know, some say maybe not, some say no. The reason for religion is the belief in a god or diety, and this gives people the idea of good and bad, even the American constitution or any country's constitution has a religious basis at some point. The idea states that law abiding is good, non-law abiding is bad. Good has benefits and bad has punishments. Its the old Good and Evil battle simplified.

So we should be gullible and believe false things simply for utility?

Skepticism over God's existence is acceptable at certain terms, but saying "No, God Doesnt Exist" bears the question of "Why do you do good and why you dont do bad?" or "Why do you keep on the standards that are standardized under the laws directly connected to the belief in the entity you dont believe?"

The first question is a good one, but jumping to a conclusion regarding the answer is not good. Your second question assumes that the laws which I follow are "directly connected" to belief in a god. NOPE! They're not. In fact, this is why we have the 1st Amendment. Remember, no law respecting an establishment of religion? Your premise here is false.

Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.

Really? So if you didn't have a belief in a god you would just start killing people? REALLY?! Think about your words there for a second and ask yourself if this is really true - because I don't think it is. Think about it, what would likely happen to you if you started just killing people? How about other harmful stuff like rape? Would you do that? Guess where you would wind up? Would you want to go there?

You are accountable to other human beings on this planet dude. You don't live in a vacuum. Chaos without god belief? NO. Do your homework. Many places in Europe and Japan have very little religious belief, and their crime is far less than ours percentage wise. Stop listening to your pastor and open your mind to reality.

Proof of God
My proof of God is His Creations, i just mentioned the Bible as a reference.

One gave an example of lightning and thunder, in need of a lightninger or thunderer? No just a Creator :)
Creator of a fully functional Universe that may contain substancial lightning and thunder.
(Batteries not included) LOL :D

Its like a clock maker, he made a clock, its like you asking, "What about the tik-tak of the clock? Does it need a tik-tak-er? No just a Clock maker.

Except we have demonstrable examples of clock makers making clocks. You have ZERO examples of gods making universes. Sorry, your examples fail. Throughout history, men of your type have given supernatural explanations for things we later found to be quite natural (yours is The God of the Gaps argument) - and at each step religion kicked and screamed, only to agree later. See? As science progresses we discover that your god wasn't needed for the things your people thought he did earlier (i.e. lightening by Zeus etc).


On Demonstrable Things
If one says God doesnt exist because he isnt Demonstrable, kindly demonstrate to me "Imagination" "Future" "Belief" "Love" "Intellect" "Knowledge" "Fate" "Destiny" among many other things.

You dont really mean to use the term Demonstrable, maybe what you mean to use is Tangible. You need Tangible proof.

Either way, Whether it Tangibility or Demonstrability that is your issue, both cant be done with "Future", coz what we always experience is a "Now" and the "Past".

First, I didn't say God doesn't exist b/c he isn't demonstrable. I said there is no good reason for thinking any gods exist, since we have no demonstrable evidence (just like there's no good reason for thinking flying magic unicorns exist). Now, regarding imagination, future, belief, love, intellect, knowledge, fate, and destiny you are committing a category error in nearly all of them. Love, for example, does not exist as a "thing". It is an abstract concept which we define, and only exists in our minds. Are you willing to admit that your God is merely an abstract concept that exists only in our minds? So to with things like the future, belief, knowledge fate, destiny, and even imagination - these are not "things" that exist in and of themselves (like you claim your God does). So again, your examples fail miserably. They are irrational and should be rejected as insufficient to warrant belief.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 02:40:01 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Astreja

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #699 on: June 22, 2013, 02:43:01 AM »
The only way that "believe first, see later" makes any sense to Me is if our beliefs have the power to create the objects of our belief.

In the world of the entrepreneur, this is how it tends to work:  First you conceive of a product or service, and in that conceptualization you find the means to make it real.

In the world of religion, perhaps it works the same way:  Imagine a god, and then the god becomes  real to you -- Not because it existed previously in that form, but because you either thought it into being or reshaped a pinch of divine "stuff" to suit yourself.

If this is the mechanism at play, then it isn't surprising that gods tend to shape themselves around preexisting beliefs and tastes.  This explains a lot of things -- Different gods, different religions, different divine "laws" -- that just don't fit with the idea of a single, eternal personal god.  What worked in ancient Israel doesn't work today, and what works today probably won't work a few centuries from now.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #700 on: June 22, 2013, 03:29:46 AM »
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.
Wow. There have been many theists here that have implied they would become criminals/rapists/murderers if they did not believe in god, but to the best of my knowledge you are the first to come right out and state it. Would you truly start killing people and having sex with your children if you believed there was no god? If so, you are a frightening individual.

There are two reasons I, as one who holds no belief in any gods, do not, will not, and have not thrown all "morals" out and become a complete monster:
1. Unlike you, apparently, my freedom is extremely valuable to me, and to risk losing it by committing what our society has deemed a crime worthy of imprisonment is ludicrous. You see, as someone who has no belief in any after life, I have to make the most of the one existence I know I have, and I cannot do that behind bars.

2. As strange as it may seem to you, the Golden Rule (do unto others as you would have them do unto you, in case you didn't know) is very important to me. I will not intentionally cause harm to anyone because I don't wish suffering on anyone, as I hope to endure none myself. I know this is a difficult concept for someone who bases his morality on god, but a god is not required in order to not wish harm on others. Again, one who believes this life is our only existence will generally strive to make the best of it, and for most that goes along with treating others as we want to be treated.

Quote
If one believe in the Past, Present and Future, then you do believe in God. You're just not sure who he is or what he is and maybe you simply would like to have more proof of him manifest in your life.
There is no "belief" in the past or or present. Those things are realities[1] and indisputable. Regarding the future, it is more reasonable to say that one has trust that tomorrow will come. Trust is not the same thing as belief. Trust is grounded in experience and evidence. Every day of my life I have awoken to a new day where this planet, the sun, and the universe still exist. Based on this empirical and enduring evidence, I trust that the same will happen when I wake up tomorrow.
 1. barring the slight possibility that I'm a brain in a jar/The Matrix type situation, of course
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Offline Nam

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #701 on: June 22, 2013, 04:36:58 AM »
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same.

you're right: they'd be better. no crutch for them to lean on. can't blame their religion for their actions; they'd have to take it on themselves.

Quote
Everything would probably be in chaos.

Look at current atheistic countries in the world: are they in chaos? Japan can be considered an atheist country; less than 10% of those who live there believe in a god. They have the lowest crime rate in the world. The US is one of the highest rated in violence: a predominantly Christian nation.

How do you explain that to what you just said?

Quote
I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable.

This says more about you as a person rather than your fear of impending Hell. It also tells me: you've never been to prison. You've probably been to jail but it's not the same thing.

Quote
How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.

Humans are naturally a social group. So, your opinion amounts to nothing. Religion and/or deities didn't invent morality; especially the Christian deity who has no problem killing unborn babies, babies, children, women, the disabled, innocent people, or people in general: sometimes just for the fun of it.

You know absolutely nothing of what you talk about and though I am not a proponent of psychiatry: I suggest you seek it. Not because you believe in a god but because you're obviously mentally unstable.

As a side: Christians in the US make up the highest percentage of those incarcerated not atheists.

-Nam

« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 04:39:37 AM by Nam »
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #702 on: June 22, 2013, 04:44:40 AM »
My apologies to all.
I was giving what I thought was a negative karma point to Ownlogic for post# 694.
Because it was not thought through, and had more error then you could imagine, but I accidentally gave him a positive.
Hopefully one of the Mods could put it right. Sorry again.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #703 on: June 22, 2013, 06:43:50 AM »
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.


Wow.  I have to say I'm really shocked by your words.

I was raised by secular parents who taught me that ALL LIFE IS PRECIOUS.  They taught me empathy.  They taught me to always consider the consequences of my actions.  They taught me to put myself in the place of others, and to speak out when I saw injustice.

They taught me this because they did not believe that there was a shiny afterlife awaiting the suffering masses.  They taught me this because they believed that for every living thing, this one life on earth is all that we have.  This one, precious life, is as precious to you as it is to me. 

I don't fear punishment by some magical deity.  I don't try to impress some magical deity by good deeds.  I strive to be a good person, to help others, to improve the quality of life for others, because I believe that every human being has the right to access basic needs, such as food, shelter, clean water, literacy, and even joy. 

You walk around fighting the urge to murder those who piss you off, and fighting the urge to rape children, because you fear hell?  And if you slip?  Then can you just be really sorry, (buy into that "we are all sinners" bs) and get into your imaginary heaven anyway? 

You sir, and your ilk, terrify me.  And I think that you have, unwittingly, given the best argument I have ever seen, for raising children in healthy, secular homes. 

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #704 on: June 22, 2013, 10:03:41 AM »
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me,

Wow dude. You need help. Seriously.

You think all us atheists secretly believe in your god, hence we dont murder, rape and pilliage? You're are more disillusioned than I thought. News flash, sport! We don't need gods, nor their purported punishments, to keep us from being monsters. And if you yourself honestly do need the threat of eternal punishment, or even earthly imprisonment for that matter, to curb your homicidal tendencies, then you're a fucking sociopath.

There is something wrong with you.

Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #705 on: June 22, 2013, 10:14:11 AM »
I really thought that last sig of mine would be a good lasting one, an enduring example of craziness:

Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.

But OwnLogic, you've topped it with the piece that Dante just quoted above.  Thanks.
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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #706 on: June 22, 2013, 10:39:28 AM »
Can you prove that Atum did NOT create humanity from his tears?

Hi OwnLogic. 

I think that - if only you will BELIEVE, you will SEE that Atum DID create humanity from his tears.

Or is there something wrong with that argument?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #707 on: June 22, 2013, 10:57:06 AM »
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.


They ain't morals if you don't agree with them 100%. If you inherently disagree with your god about your behavior but adhere to his wishes only because he has told you that you should, then you are not moral in any sense of the word. You are merely obedient.

His hold on you may be tenuous. Your hold on reality is even more tenuous. You are one scary dude. Just keep in mind that we who are moral will still kill back if forced into a corner.

I share my morality with others. Those who don't share back get less of mine in return.






Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #708 on: June 22, 2013, 11:00:52 AM »
Skepticism over God's existence is acceptable at certain terms, but saying "No, God Doesnt Exist" bears the question of "Why do you do good and why you dont do bad?" or "Why do you keep on the standards that are standardized under the laws directly connected to the belief in the entity you dont believe?"

Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.

I wonder if this sort of logic is the reason why god is a mass-murderer in the bible.  Yahweh has no gods to worship, follow, or otherwise look up to.  So he commits genocide and commands his followers to murder as well.  All the while, spins it as "lawful" and have generations of followers justify the killings as "righteous".

If only Yahweh had a god of his own to teach him right from wrong, good from bad.  Instead, he comes up with his own stuff.  His "laws" were so bad, that even he ended up abolishing them after awhile (of course, he spinned it as "fulfilling" the law), and his followers can't even agree on what is still in effect or how to interpret them.  Chaos, indeed.



EDIT: Can't believe it took me this long to notice how this arguement refutes itself.

Quote
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.

According to this, without god, we would only act out of self-preservation, without any morality to guide us.  Yet, his reasoning for not killing is exactly that.  Appearently, the one and only reason he hasn't killed anyone (yet) is because he is trying to avoid an "unbearable" punishment.  That is the very definition of "acts of self preservation".  No morality is being accounted for here.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 11:27:40 AM by Aaron123 »
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Samothec

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #709 on: June 22, 2013, 12:58:13 PM »
While much of this post seems to be directed at me, your strange style and lack of any quotes or other indicators combined with things that do not apply to my post, makes me unsure but suspecting that this was directed towards others too.

In business, before you do a certain business, there are alot of belief involved, you believe first you can do it, you believe in your plan, you believe in your partners, you believe you will earn, why? Because you havent started yet. If one says he has a business he doesnt believe in, he is probably making a false claim, why? because you wont do it if you dont believe you can. So everything starts with belief in that aspect.
Here you appear to be using belief as a substitute for the word confidence. Hopefully you do know the difference between the two but given the rest of your post, I'm not sure.

Anyways, Thats the reason why I say there are no real Atheists, simply Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not. 
Whatever you think the meaning of the word "atheist" is, you are wrong.
Atheists = "Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not"

"Why do you keep on the standards that are standardized under the laws directly connected to the belief in the entity you dont believe?"
Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.   
Well, then I guess it's a good thing you're a believer since you confess to being a despicable person who can't manage to behave himself without someone watching over you. I can follow the law (which is NOT directly or indirectly connected to one or more gods) so I don't need religion. Curiously the facts show you to be wrong about this also: a disproportionately small percentage of atheists are in jail. If you were right about things descending into chaos without god then a disproportionately LARGE percentage of atheists would be in jail.

I said the guy "was able to come up with a fusion reactor". I wonder where you get the word "Self-Sustaining", I didnt say that.
Anyways, fusion reactors now can already be made at home, you can make one if you want.
A Kid did: Here's The Link 
First, I fixed the link so the one in the quote works. Secondly, you either didn't read the article you linked to or didn't understand it. Third, achieving a fusion reaction has been done, yes, but unless it is self-sustaining it is useless as a power source which is the whole point of developing it.

About the verses in the bible that someone has Seen God ...
I don't believe the bible is anything more than a mix of oral history and myth, mainly myth. I was simply refuting your false claim. Instead of trying to refute my refutation you cast doubt on the bible. Frankly, I'm fine with doubt being cast on the bible. Your mistake.

About the marriage, thanks for affirming what i said Mr. Samothec. The spouse "Believes" that the one he or she will marry is a good partner. Thats the point, believe first then you will see. If you dont believe, then you wont marry the person, therefore you wont see if he or she is worth marrying. Right?
Wrong. You were presenting the marriage thing as support for the idea that belief is a good thing. My statements show you to be wrong - that belief is often a bad thing. Two people should get to know each other and if they are compatible then get married.

On Demonstrable Things
If one says God doesnt exist because he isnt Demonstrable, kindly demonstrate to me "Imagination" "Future" "Belief" "Love" "Intellect" "Knowledge" "Fate" "Destiny" among many other things.
I imagine that in the future you will demonstrate your lack of knowledge and love of belief by claiming more wrong things. Your fate, or destiny, here will be to have a smite count equal to or greater than half your post count, even if in the future you last past 200 posts. I won't use the term "intellect" the way I want to because it would just be a direct insult.

I think it's good that you went with the name "Own Logic" since you don't use real logic - you use your own version of "logic".
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 01:15:22 PM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Samothec

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #710 on: June 22, 2013, 01:09:37 PM »
I really thought that last sig of mine would be a good lasting one, an enduring example of craziness:

Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.

But OwnLogic, you've topped it with the piece that Dante just quoted above.  Thanks.

I don't know ... I feel that SW's shows more of a disconnect from reality. But it is your sig so go with the one you want. Or you could have both or switch off between them.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Online jaimehlers

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #711 on: June 22, 2013, 05:32:07 PM »
Hi guys, its been a while since Ive been online, now I see alot of replies to my replies to replies on my replies to my reply to the question in this thread :D

Let me discuss the things I said one by one Per Topic in accordance to your replies, so I wont need to bore your eyes with alot of quotes and unquotes.
I hope you don't mind my participating.  I skimmed over your post, and I saw a number of things that definitely need to be responded to.  Though, honestly, you really should have spent a bit more time organizing all this.  Right now it's kind of muddled.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Here we go:

Believe First and You Will See

Belief is not what others think as non-negotiable or unchangeable. It can be changed in a slight of a moment, specially when proven wrong.
This is true.  A belief is simply what one thinks is true.  The problem is when someone holds a belief that they can't prove in any way, yet argues that their belief is true anyway.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Believe First...
In business, before you do a certain business, there are alot of belief involved, you believe first you can do it, you believe in your plan, you believe in your partners, you believe you will earn, why? Because you havent started yet. If one says he has a business he doesnt believe in, he is probably making a false claim, why? because you wont do it if you dont believe you can. So everything starts with belief in that aspect.

...then You will See
After you believe you can, then you act on it. After you act, thats when the results come up. Then You See the results of the business.
You can and should have done a better job presenting this.  As it stands, it's not exactly convincing; it conflates the idea of confidence in an action not yet undertaken with belief in something that's inherently unprovable.  On top of that, simply having confidence in something isn't enough.  That's how con gamesWiki work - they're basically schemes to enlist the cooperation of other people in an endeavor which is either fraudulent or designed to fail, but that will allow the con artist to profit from them.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Thought:
If you dont believe you can, then you cant coz you wont.

Example:
My work is to offer people a way to earn using my business system. If I tell a person, I can make you earn $600 a day with my system, if he believes what i say then he partners up with me and he earns.
Frankly, I hope you write your business proposals better than you wrote this post.

Quote from: OwnLogic
To the guy who said this kind of business run to the ground, the business im doing is running with thousands of micro-franchises in 11 countries worldwide and is earning a few Billion a year for 7 years, i earn a few hundred grand from it within just a year. Its a Believe first and you will see business. Believe you can, believe the system, do everything according to the system, then afterwards you will see results. Its looks like the "Believe God's words Do it and you will get Salvation" gig right?

Most people say, your systems looks good but sounds too good to be true (Skeptics). Yes it does, but thats how it works, not the other way around. Doubting and Skepticism is Normal. You doubt you can or you doubt the system. But no person became a businessman by being skeptic or doubtful over everything. Why? Because a True Skeptic wont act on it unless he see something solid, like a bunch of cash coming out of your pockets. And no one earns anything by purely doubting everything.
Actually, competent business people (and more to the point, successful ones) are generally going to be skeptical of everything that's outside their ability to control it, at least until it's proven itself.  They aren't paid for doubting, but it does generally keep them from losing money.

Quote from: OwnLogic
If theres a job like that and it pays millions for doing "doubting" tell me lets doubt it every minute so we will get rich quick :D
Doubting doesn't make people money.  Instead, it helps keep them from losing money.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Anyways, Thats the reason why I say there are no real Atheists, simply Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not. This being based on the replies i got from you guys like the "i dont know" stand and the "Unicorn" stand.
And just what do you think atheists are, hmm?  They're people who don't believe in gods.  That is to say, they've concluded that there's no real evidence to show that gods actually exist.  In other words, they're skeptical of the existence of gods.

Quote from: OwnLogic
If Im not mistaken, Unicorn means Single Horn, right? If so then yes I believe such an animal exists. Others have just come to the conclusion that unicorn means horses with a horn. But it is something that resembles or looks like a horse according to the definition of the legends. It might well be a rhino, depending on the idea of the guy who saw it first. Its like Santa on a Christmas eve, you saw him putting gifts under your tree when you were a kid so you say there is a Santa. Some others didnt see so they say no there is none. The fact is there is one who looks or resemble Santa who put gift under your tree. The Main Question is; Does he exist? YES that guy who put that gift exists, whatever you might call him.
This is kind of silly.  A unicorn is not simply a word referring to a generic animal that has a single horn on its head.  Unicorns have always been described as horse-like animals that had a single horn, all the way back to the ancient Greeks.  Notably, not anything like a rhinoceros (which, by the way, generally has two horns, one behind the other).  Sophistry like this is not convincing anyone of anything except that you like to play word games.

Quote from: OwnLogic
As For God
Some say he exists, some say maybe he exists, some say i dont know, some say maybe not, some say no. The reason for religion is the belief in a god or diety, and this gives people the idea of good and bad, even the American constitution or any country's constitution has a religious basis at some point. The idea states that law abiding is good, non-law abiding is bad. Good has benefits and bad has punishments. Its the old Good and Evil battle simplified.
That's as may be.  However, the real question is whether gods and deities (as personifications of good and evil) actually exist, is it not?

Quote from: OwnLogic
Skepticism over God's existence is acceptable at certain terms, but saying "No, God Doesnt Exist" bears the question of "Why do you do good and why you dont do bad?" or "Why do you keep on the standards that are standardized under the laws directly connected to the belief in the entity you dont believe?"

Without the belief in a God or in a Diety, people wont be the same. Everything would probably be in chaos. I myself would have killed so many people who were gravely at fault with me, if i didnt believe that there is unbearable punishment waiting for me if i do that besides imprisonment, prison is bearable. How Come? Coz there would be no difference between good and bad, one would be doing only acts of self preservation. There wont be any morals, like not doing to your kid what you do to your wife at night.
This is, frankly, bullshit.  It's little more than the usual nonsense by religious people who can't imagine morality existing unless their god exists to provide it.  It's highly insulting, condescending garbage that's got about as much appeal as what my cats puke up.

People (generally) act in a moral manner because we're social creatures, and in order to live in society, we have to abide by the rules agreed to by that society.  That's really all there is to it.  No gods required.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Now there may be some who may say that theres alot of people who says they believe in God but doesnt practice morality, Yes there are, but one is not the whole.
It isn't just that there are a lot of people who don't practice morality as preached by their religion, it's that many religions actually try to stipulate that in order to be moral, you must abide by what their religion says, and they punish people who don't, up to and including executing them.  In short, unless you do as they say, you're risking your life and welfare.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Proof of God
My proof of God is His Creations, i just mentioned the Bible as a reference.

One gave an example of lightning and thunder, in need of a lightninger or thunderer? No just a Creator :)
Creator of a fully functional Universe that may contain substancial lightning and thunder.
(Batteries not included) LOL :D
Yet there were religions in the past which did in fact have a thunder or lightning god (Thor and Zeus, to name two).  If they were wrong, could you not also be wrong?

Quote from: OwnLogic
Its like a clock maker, he made a clock, its like you asking, "What about the tik-tak of the clock? Does it need a tik-tak-er? No just a Clock maker.
In short, all you really need for your belief system is someone who set up the universe and then pressed the button that triggered the Big Bang.  For all you know, they just walked off afterward, and the universe has been running on its own ever since.

Quote from: OwnLogic
About the cure for Cancer, there is already, I had 5 cancer testimonials already under my account, 1 brain, 1 bone, 2 colon, 1 kidney. It earned me a few grand.
I find this hard to believe.  Are you seriously telling me that you've cured cancer, and yet you've only made a few thousand dollars off of those cures?  I find that quite hard to believe.

Quote from: OwnLogic
And about the Fusion,
I said the guy "was able to come up with a fusion reactor". I wonder where you get the word "Self-Sustaining", I didnt say that.
Anyways, fusion reactors now can already be made at home, you can make one if you want.
A Kid did: Here's The Link
Not very useful then, is it?  Really, we can create a fusion reaction with a hydrogen bomb.  The problem is keeping it controlled, and making sure it keeps running.

Quote from: OwnLogic
On Demonstrable Things
If one says God doesnt exist because he isnt Demonstrable, kindly demonstrate to me "Imagination" "Future" "Belief" "Love" "Intellect" "Knowledge" "Fate" "Destiny" among many other things.

You dont really mean to use the term Demonstrable, maybe what you mean to use is Tangible. You need Tangible proof.

Either way, Whether it Tangibility or Demonstrability that is your issue, both cant be done with "Future", coz what we always experience is a "Now" and the "Past".
I'm pretty sure we mean demonstrable, as in, something that can be demonstrated to others.  You see, all of those things (imagination, future, belief, love, etc), can be demonstrated, even though they're conceptual rather than actual.  But you can't actually have tangible proof of them, because they are concepts.  How am I supposed to make love, a concept, tangible?  I can't do that.  What I can do is demonstrate it (such as by giving flowers to someone).

Quote from: OwnLogic
Try thinking of this scenario:

Now is a Proof of the Past, and the proof of Now's Existence is Now. Its like a -what you called- "Fallacy of circular reasoning".

If you wont believe the Existence of Now, because it is a fallacy to have the Now as a proof of the Existence of Now, then Now dont Exist in your belief.

If the existence of Now is the proof of the existence of the Past and you dont believe that the Now Exist due to Fallacious Circular reasoning, then how would you believe in the Existence of the Past?

It follows then that if you dont believe in the "Past" coz its Existence is based on a Non-Existent Proof which is "Now" due to the fact that "Now's"  Existence is based on a Fallacy of Circular Reasoning. Then How much more would you believe in the "Future"?

Take Note: "Future" has no proof yet, and wont have any...           ...ever.

If you wont believe in the Past, in the Now and in the Future, coz they are mere words that are not Demonstrable nor Tangible...
...how much more would you believe in God who is Hayah, Howeh and Eheyeh (Past, Present and Future) all at the same time?

If one believe in the Past, Present and Future, then you do believe in God. You're just not sure who he is or what he is and maybe you simply would like to have more proof of him manifest in your life.

If one dont believe in the Past Present and Future, thats a very problematic situation. Right?


Scenario End

Ok so thats for today hope you guys give time reading this, thanks.
Frankly, this scenario of yours was a whole lot less impressive than you clearly were hoping it would be.  It seems like you're just trying more sophistry to maybe get people to think they might actually believe in your god despite your complete and total inability to demonstrate actual evidence that your god actually exists.  But the fact of the matter is that you don't need to believe in a god in order to accept the reality of a past, present, and future.

First off, circular reasoning is actually based on using your desired conclusion as your premise.  It is not the same as observing something that actually exists that happens to be circular.  Second, the present is not proof of the past or the present.  The present exists; the past is inferred from causes, and the future is inferred from effects.  That kind of blows apart your whole argument right there.  Moving on, the past, present, and future, are all demonstrable - the present is the current state (demonstrable, simply by looking at something), the past is the previous state (demonstrable by showing where the present state was), and the future is the next state (demonstrable by predicting where the present state will go).

And that's all there is to it.  Your example did not hold up under investigation, since all it did (and probably all it was intended to do) was kick up enough metaphorical smoke so that you could make a claim without having to actually provide evidence for it.  Which is exactly what you did - you said that God was past, present, and future all at once, but you failed to actually show that this was the case, or provide anything besides your own opinion to support it. 

Offline OwnLogic

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #712 on: June 23, 2013, 05:11:05 AM »
Good day

Thanks for the replies, both the accusative and the otherwise.

Im sorry if my answers were "muddled" or not so clear to some, thats what you get when you answer more than one reply in one reply under time constraint, so i just discuss by topic and not by person, but please bear with me, thanks.

Here we go;

Believe First and You will See
Many got lost over the long post and forgot the thought;
"If you dont believe you can, you cant, coz you wont"

When I discussed about my business, Some say, "no its not true", "no thats not how it works" or "thats how cons work".

First, id like to say it works, and im thankful coz it works that way, otherwise if it doesnt, id be broke and a lot of people would be suing me.
Another thing, I dont make business proposals, I go to the prospect partner which i believe would need my business and tell him straight the basic thing he need to know, which is how he would earn. If he believes the system, then we start working and he start earning if he doesnt, i leave him alone for a while, I come back again when I think hes ready. Coz I believe everyone wants to earn, some are just not ready yet.

Some say, Trust or Confidence is what you give in Business and Not Belief.
How do you trust something or have confidence in something you absolutely dont believe in?
Would you really put your money out on a business you dont believe would work?
I wont :)

Another postulated that before you enter a business, you study it first, gather data, etc. And the moment you do that, youre already past the Believing Before Seeing part.

I ought to thank you for implying that you believed first before doing the research, by saying you are "past" that. :)
But I still have a question left about that;
During the times of gathering the data for the Feasibility Study for the preparation of your business, is your business already there? I think not yet, right?

Cancer
For the one who asked if its true that i have cured cancer patients, and wouldnt believe me coz i said i only earned a few grand out of it.
Yes i did, why i didnt earn millions out of it? well not yet, first coz i only had 5 patients and second its very very cheap compared to the pther stuff they use today like chemo, cobalt ,etc.

But as ive said, our company earns Billions a year for helping out curing not just cancer but a lot of other diseases, and thats just part of their program among other things.

God and Morality
I gave an extreme example on the topic of how having a god or diety defined the norms of countries and society.
Most (but not all) gave me the "sick jerk" reply.
Most seems to focus on the Example and not the thought, just as they did on the "believe and you will see" part.

Ill give a very short review on what we studied in Elementary, I dont know if its the same with what they taught you then.
The IDEA of a Paragraph is on the First Sentence. A sentence ends with a period.

You currently live in a society of norms of good and bad if you backtrack and seek its source it starts with a belief, you cant take that away or disregard that.

Actually even the "Golden Rule" is a belief, which actually is partially wrong. It came from the "an eye for an eye" belief.
Why do I say its a belief? Would you do it if you dont believe it? or if you dont believe it possible to be done?

Why do I say its partially wrong? Well beyond that, at certain circumstances, "impossible" even. Why?
Coz if someone killed you, would you kill him in return? How are you going to do that when Youre already dead?
Thats an old college discussion.

About Atheists and Skeptics
One defined Atheist as
"simply a lack of belief in a god"
Another defined it as
"doesnt believe in the existence of a god/diety"
Another said
"people who don't believe in gods"

On the other hand.....

Someone defined Atheist as
" they're skeptical of the existence of gods."
Another said
"Atheist=Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not"

Please settle this one. I mean, what is it really?
What is an Atheist? and What is a Skeptic?
Are they the same? or are they different?

On Practice
The rule of Knowing God is Obeying his Commandments

1 John 2:3
"And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments."


Knowing that fact changes the scene, How?
If the people or country some say proposes themselves as Christians yet are in chaos or internal conflict or is filled with crimes.
You are talking of "people who dont know God"

So what's your case there? Nothing

Show me a group of people who "really" knows God and show me how they could be in chaos?

Example:
A Group of people, who obeys God
Loves each other as brothers and sisters in faith.
Doesnt Curse, Doesnt Steal, Doesnt covet his neighbor's wife.
Eats what is commanded, and doesnt eat what was not.
Among other things.

How can this group be in chaos?

The Intangible
One say Love Hope among other examples I mentioned , doesnt count for the proof of God.
No it doesnt, but the postulation is that if God dont exist simply because they are not Demonstrable or are Intangible, what more are these things. At least God had a book written of his claim of existence, Love, Hope, Knowledge, Belief, Future, etc didnt.

One said you could demonstrate Love (example: giving roses)
 :-\ Really?  :-\

You mean if i gave you a rose, it would mean im in love with you or something?

So the hot girls from this Vegas Hotel gave me a bunch of roses when I entered and I didnt notice that theyre making a proposal of Love.

By the way, God is not a "thing", and is not of the mind too but of Spirit and not a concept. I just used the "Love Hope Fate" stuff in the terms of Intangibility and Non-demonstrability

Past Present and Future
If one says the "Past" is in existence. What is your proof?
If its "past" then that means there is no more of it.
Some may give a Classic Movie, but the movie is still here so its not really "past".

If one say the "Now" is in existence. What is your proof?
If you i say Now this "Now" is written, thats a few seconds ago so that Now is not Now
So what is Now?

Much Worse if you believe in the "Future", what is your proof?
At least the past has a Classic Movie to hold on to.

The point is, you wont have Physical Proof of these yet you can factually say it has, it is, and it will be.

Gods existence is close. Only God's proof of existence is from the things he manifested.
Some would say, "God didnt manifest that, it happened on its own."
If you ask how and ask them up to the very source of it, they end up with an "I dont Know".

About the Fusion
The main topic of that is Belief, not the Fusion Reactor's usefullness or sustainability really.
I dont know why people concentrated on the Example and forgot about the Idea.
Please read the previous posts.

Doubting
It keeps people from losing money, YES
But it also keeps them from earning money, when they doubt everything specially a Good Business.

Big Bang Theory
Ill discuss this for the sake of those who cant get over it and keeps mentioning it.

Big Bang is Big Flop
A theory where no proof was given that shows that Order can be a byproduct of Chaos.
In a smaller scale, you cant build a doghouse by simply throwing a grenade at your backyard

Yet so many people believe it and its in many books taught in many schools.

Point is, its easy for a person to believe in the Big Bang where most of the evidence points against it.
Yet its not easy to believe in God due to the supposed lack of Physical evidence of his Non-Physical Status.

Its Logically Illogical
-----------------------------------------------
Bye for now Guys

Happy Discussions and God Bless  :)



Offline Azdgari

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #713 on: June 23, 2013, 07:09:21 AM »
You got the "sick jerk" reply because you described yourself as a sick jerk.  One with no empathy, no emotional morality.  You said you would have killed people if you didn't think you were under constant threat of torture for doing so.

That's not how other people operate.  That's not even how most theists operate.  You need to seek help.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #714 on: June 23, 2013, 08:56:41 AM »
Its been a while. quick question
Does the non existence of intelligent life on other planets mean that evolution could be a fallacy, or does an atheist "believe" or is confident that one day, in some way these other planets will be able to become like earth? - and if the latter is true is this believing before seeing? We talk about reality a lot on this forum and I can appreciate that, and my argument is if mutations happen and evolution from mutation happens, why is it not happening (other planets)?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #715 on: June 23, 2013, 09:07:35 AM »
Its been a while. quick question
Does the non existence of intelligent life on other planets mean that evolution could be a fallacy, or does an atheist "believe" or is confident that one day, in some way these other planets will be able to become like earth? - and if the latter is true is this believing before seeing? We talk about reality a lot on this forum and I can appreciate that, and my argument is if mutations happen and evolution from mutation happens, why is it not happening (other planets)?
Well, you havent thought this question all the way through. We dont know what is actually on planets out of our reach. You are assuming there is no life on the planets we know about based on incomplete evidence. Also, as for the planets we CAN reach and have reached, does the fact that there is no life there NOW mean that there never was or never will be? Given the age of our planet, solar system, galaxy, and universe the timeline for human existence barely registers. And I wouldnt even be surprised if we didnt exist in a couple more thousand years... all the while destroying earths ability to sustain life. Then in a million years a spaceship from a planet weve yet to discover flies by and see's the dead planet earth and concludes they are and have been the only life in the universe.

So I reject your question as you havent even the slightest bit of information to make the claim. Unlike your god which is easily dismissed based on the wealth of information we actually do possess.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #716 on: June 23, 2013, 10:11:50 AM »
Believe First and You will See
<snip>
Some say, Trust or Confidence is what you give in Business and Not Belief.
How do you trust something or have confidence in something you absolutely dont believe in?
Would you really put your money out on a business you dont believe would work?
I wont :)
Your business analogy is lacking.  You are describing belief in a manner that is synonymous with 'confidence' or 'trust'.  What you are talking about in your analogy describes a situation of believing in the value proposition of widget x and believing in the business model behind selling widget x.

I ask - does widget x exist?  You then proceed to tell me all of the great things widget x does, and how great your business of selling widget x is going to do.  Alright...but does widget x exist?

I believe that a ray gun that cured cancer would be wonderful.  I believe that a business selling this ray gun could make a fortune with even a poorly defined business plan.  Does any of that matter if the ray gun that cured cancer doesn't exist?
Quote
Another postulated that before you enter a business, you study it first, gather data, etc. And the moment you do that, youre already past the Believing Before Seeing part.
Please tell me how on Earth you convinced a bank to loan you money with this 'no need to do due diligence' plan of yours.  Please tell me who this bank is, and let me know if they are looking for new customers.
Quote
I ought to thank you for implying that you believed first before doing the research, by saying you are "past" that. :)
But I still have a question left about that;
During the times of gathering the data for the Feasibility Study for the preparation of your business, is your business already there? I think not yet, right?
Um.  No, my business isn't there.  My hope that my business will start and become successful is there.

Seriously...we have the word hope - it's right the hell there in the dictionary.  We use it in common discourse all of the time.  You clearly mean hope whenever you use the word belief.

Or, if you don't simply mean hope, please explain what you do mean with the word belief.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #717 on: June 23, 2013, 11:17:00 AM »
Its been a while. quick question
Does the non existence of intelligent life on other planets mean that evolution could be a fallacy, or does an atheist "believe" or is confident that one day, in some way these other planets will be able to become like earth? - and if the latter is true is this believing before seeing? We talk about reality a lot on this forum and I can appreciate that, and my argument is if mutations happen and evolution from mutation happens, why is it not happening (other planets)?

This is a great question, now instead of being gullible/credulous and just accepting what a few religious people told you about a claimed holy book (stemming from the argument from ignorance fallacy) why not actually go out and study science, investigate, and do the hard work and investigation that it would take to better comprehend the situation? In other words, instead of trying to use logically fallacious arguments to support as assumed view, why not admit when you don't know something until you find a sound explanation?

Your second question commits the fallacy of a Complex Question. Do you know what that is? Have you visited all of the other planets? If not, what investigation have you done that leads you to this conclusion that there just is no life of any other planet anywhere? How could you know that if you haven't investigated? Again this is an argument from ignorance/incredulity fallacy.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #718 on: June 23, 2013, 11:51:38 AM »

Believe First and You will See
Many got lost over the long post and forgot the thought;
"If you dont believe you can, you cant, coz you wont"

When I discussed about my business, Some say, "no its not true", "no thats not how it works" or "thats how cons work".

First, id like to say it works, and im thankful coz it works that way, otherwise if it doesnt, id be broke and a lot of people would be suing me.
Another thing, I dont make business proposals, I go to the prospect partner which i believe would need my business and tell him straight the basic thing he need to know, which is how he would earn. If he believes the system, then we start working and he start earning if he doesnt, i leave him alone for a while, I come back again when I think hes ready. Coz I believe everyone wants to earn, some are just not ready yet.

Some say, Trust or Confidence is what you give in Business and Not Belief.
How do you trust something or have confidence in something you absolutely dont believe in?
Would you really put your money out on a business you dont believe would work?
I wont :)

Another postulated that before you enter a business, you study it first, gather data, etc. And the moment you do that, youre already past the Believing Before Seeing part.

I ought to thank you for implying that you believed first before doing the research, by saying you are "past" that. :)
But I still have a question left about that;
During the times of gathering the data for the Feasibility Study for the preparation of your business, is your business already there? I think not yet, right?

First, can you please address us individually, and not with these giant posts that don't quote our words? You keep misrepresenting what we have said and I think it's b/c you are trying to tackle everyone at once. So, learn how to use the quote function here and address us one by one, please.

1. You say, "It works" in regards to just believing a business proposition before seeing it. Do you really believe a business proposition before seeing it, or do you TEST it? If someone brings you a business proposition, you begin to test it, and if it fails would you say that you actually believed it completely or that you were withholding judgment until you got the test results? Trying something out doesn't imply belief. It is quite foolish to "believe" in a business model you haven't had the opportunity to test.  So no, we do not "believe before seeing". On the contrary, we place tentative trust AFTER the testing and not before.

2. You don't make business proposals? Yes you do, in verbal form. And if your "proposal" is one that you are claiming works for everyone, then that claim can be tested. No, not by a self-test but by actual research under controlled conditions. Are you arguing that your business works for everyone (like you're arguing that your religion does)? Also, you claim "if he believes in the system" and I'm arguing that such an idea is foolish. Tentative trust (under trial) is NOTHING like "believing before seeing" like you are trying to use for your god belief because, again, there is demonstrable evidence that can be provided for businesses - not so for your Yahweh belief.

3. Businesses that put their money out on a risk, without doing any research or homework, don't last. That is called FOOLISH. And this was my earlier point (which you failed to address). Once research begins, your idea of "believing before seeing" makes no sense. I can run a business (i.e. - test it) without believing that it will succeed. And if the business starts going south, I can (and will) bail out! Will you bail out if you discover your Jesus beliefs are based in irrational arguments? B/c this is exactly what I would do if your business model was based on faulty reasoning.

Tell me, would you trust in my business proposal (and financially invest significant money in it) if it was completely irrational? I think not, and this is why your example is a failed analogy.

4. Businesses are demonstrable. Your God Yahweh is not. And I did NOT (in any way) imply that "believing" in a business came before seeing the results of a test. This is what you seem to be incapable of wrapping your mind around. Ever hear of a person who said, "I believed wholeheartedly that my business would succeed, but it failed." This happens all the time. People get themselves into bad/irrational business ventures (and they believe it will work) but it fails. Ever see Kitchen Nightmares with Gordon Ramsey? People believe in irrational nonsense all the time, and this is a perfect example of your Christianity - irrational nonsense.

So basically, your words and your actions don't line up here. On one hand you SAY that you "believe before seeing" but if that was the case you would believe (and invest in) an irrational business model (like you are doing with your Christianity). All things are possible right! But you don't do that, and neither does nearly any successful business person. We follow the evidence and reject the irrational. Have you done that with your religion? I think not.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 12:03:19 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #719 on: June 23, 2013, 12:46:45 PM »
If one says the "Past" is in existence. What is your proof?
If its "past" then that means there is no more of it.
Some may give a Classic Movie, but the movie is still here so its not really "past".

If one say the "Now" is in existence. What is your proof?
If you i say Now this "Now" is written, thats a few seconds ago so that Now is not Now
So what is Now?

Much Worse if you believe in the "Future", what is your proof?
At least the past has a Classic Movie to hold on to.

The point is, you wont have Physical Proof of these yet you can factually say it has, it is, and it will be.
No one said the past is "in existence", and that was not what you addressed when you first brought up the subject. You asked how we can "believe" in the past, present, and future, or you at least equated the acknowledgement of them as a "belief". You continue to conflate the terms trust, expectation, confidence, and belief as if they all mean the same thing, but they simply do not. Your analogies fail, utterly.

The past existed (note the past tense of the word exist). I know this because I was there and experienced it first hand. Where's my proof? Well, my kids were acting cute yesterday and I recorded it with my phone's video camera. My car had a full tank of gas yesterday but after driving around town for a while it now only has 3/4 of a a tank. When I woke up this morning I was very hungry, but after eating breakfast I no longer feel hungry. This list of proofs could go on and on...

The present exists, because here I am typing this reply to you, which would be an impossibility without the existence of the time in which I am performing this action. You attempt to be clever in noting that once the present is recognized as such it immediately becomes the past, but the progress of time is indisputable.

I have reasonable expectations and trust that the future will exist, based upon a lifetime of it happening. As it turns out, every single moment of my life was immediately and without fail followed by another one. That's an awful lot of evidence on which to base my trust. But let's test my expectation that the future will indeed manifest itself. Here goes, starting now: OK....present....still the present....waaaaaaaait for it....BLAMMO! Here it is! It is now a future time from when I began typing these sentences! Amazing!
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Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #720 on: June 23, 2013, 01:44:18 PM »
About Atheists and Skeptics
One defined Atheist as
"simply a lack of belief in a god"
Another defined it as
"doesnt believe in the existence of a god/diety"
Another said
"people who don't believe in gods"

On the other hand.....

Someone defined Atheist as
" they're skeptical of the existence of gods."
Another said
"Atheist=Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not"

Please settle this one. I mean, what is it really?
What is an Atheist? and What is a Skeptic?
Are they the same? or are they different?

Being skeptical of a claim implies a lack of belief, and if one does not believe something this also entails a lack of belief. There is no contradiction there Mr. My Own Logic. We are saying the same thing in different ways. Wake up! Atheism is simply the lack of belief in god or gods (just like aSanta Clausism is a lack of belief in Santa Claus). There is a difference between believing there are no gods and not believing there is one. Do you understand the difference?


Btw, we non-believers have been asking you Christians to "settle this one", as to who the true Christians are, for centuries. There has been no definitive or conclusive response. Why is that? My position is that this is because there is no one Christianity. There are only Christianities (pl.) and this is why there is no agreement. It's kind of funny isn't it - that you have an all powerful God who can't even get his own followers to believe and agree upon the same things. To me, this is sign that your religion is man made - b/c if it was truly done by an all powerful deity you wouldn't have this disagreement. Heck, it seems we humans are actually better than your God at getting each other to agree on things.

Yes, I said it. I'm better than your God (and so are you!). 
« Last Edit: June 23, 2013, 02:27:37 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #721 on: June 23, 2013, 07:03:15 PM »
This guy, who has, clearly his "Own Logic", talks about business like my long deceased con artist father did. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, anyone can do it, guaranteed, a vague description of how he actually makes money but lots and lots of words, and wowee, it's so amazing!

Plus he's a [possibly violent] religious nut, who would kill people and rape children if god did not threaten him with hell. Yikes!

Either this guy is 1)a joker making sh!t up for fun; 2) a stone liar, sociopath and con man; 3) delusional (the money exists only in his mind, along with his god) or 4 )my daddy reincarnated, ie both 2) and 3) above.

OwnLogic, can you please prove you are not my reincarnated daddy? :-\ :? :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Astreja

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #722 on: June 23, 2013, 07:59:54 PM »
This guy, who has, clearly his "Own Logic", talks about business like my long deceased con artist father did. Hundreds of thousands of dollars, anyone can do it, guaranteed, a vague description of how he actually makes money but lots and lots of words, and wowee, it's so amazing!

As a medical professional, I'm extremely worried about the alleged "cancer cure" and possible ramifications such as misdiagnosis or inadequate treatment.  As a former student of Business Administration, I can say with absolute certainty that I would not do business with OwnLogic because IMO the business methodology is all wrong.  Finally, My gut instinct is screaming "Do not leave this person alone with Your cats!"
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #723 on: June 23, 2013, 08:16:05 PM »
Believe First and You will See
Many got lost over the long post and forgot the thought;
"If you dont believe you can, you cant, coz you wont"
How convenient it must be to arbitrarily discard people's responses because you think they "got lost over the long post".  But I'll answer this directly.  A person who doesn't believe they can do something can still end up doing it, and doing it well.  Confidence smooths the way, but it isn't the kind of absolute requirement you seem to think it is.

Quote from: OwnLogic
When I discussed about my business, Some say, "no its not true", "no thats not how it works" or "thats how cons work".

First, id like to say it works, and im thankful coz it works that way, otherwise if it doesnt, id be broke and a lot of people would be suing me.
Another thing, I dont make business proposals, I go to the prospect partner which i believe would need my business and tell him straight the basic thing he need to know, which is how he would earn. If he believes the system, then we start working and he start earning if he doesnt, i leave him alone for a while, I come back again when I think hes ready. Coz I believe everyone wants to earn, some are just not ready yet.
No offense, but you're going to need to present some actual evidence here to support your statements.  Anyone can make claims.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Some say, Trust or Confidence is what you give in Business and Not Belief.
How do you trust something or have confidence in something you absolutely dont believe in?
Would you really put your money out on a business you dont believe would work?
I wont :)

Another postulated that before you enter a business, you study it first, gather data, etc. And the moment you do that, youre already past the Believing Before Seeing part.
There's a subtle distinction here that you're missing.  A business is something that exists in the real world.  It's something you can analyze, that you can give unambiguous proof for.  But nobody's ever been able to show that gods exist in the real world - that they can be analyzed, etc.

Quote from: OwnLogic
I ought to thank you for implying that you believed first before doing the research, by saying you are "past" that. :)
But I still have a question left about that;
During the times of gathering the data for the Feasibility Study for the preparation of your business, is your business already there? I think not yet, right?
Completely and totally irrelevant.  A prospective business may not actually be a business yet, but it is something that can be modeled and predicted.  One cannot do that with a god.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Cancer
For the one who asked if its true that i have cured cancer patients, and wouldnt believe me coz i said i only earned a few grand out of it.
Yes i did, why i didnt earn millions out of it? well not yet, first coz i only had 5 patients and second its very very cheap compared to the pther stuff they use today like chemo, cobalt ,etc.

But as ive said, our company earns Billions a year for helping out curing not just cancer but a lot of other diseases, and thats just part of their program among other things.
This is simply your unsupported word.  If you have not already figured it out, the people here are not credulous.  They don't believe things simply because someone says so.  They require evidence to support claims like yours - evidence which is in extremely short supply in your case.

Quote from: OwnLogic
God and Morality
I gave an extreme example on the topic of how having a god or diety defined the norms of countries and society.
Most (but not all) gave me the "sick jerk" reply.
Most seems to focus on the Example and not the thought, just as they did on the "believe and you will see" part.
You know why people called you a sick jerk?  It's because you said that if you believed that gods did not exist, you would do whatever you liked because you wouldn't have to worry about being punished after you died.  And that's horrific.  Compared to that, most of the atheists here are paragons of virtue, because they've concluded that they need to treat others morally regardless of whether gods exist.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Ill give a very short review on what we studied in Elementary, I dont know if its the same with what they taught you then.
The IDEA of a Paragraph is on the First Sentence. A sentence ends with a period.
What does this have to do with anything?

Quote from: OwnLogic
You currently live in a society of norms of good and bad if you backtrack and seek its source it starts with a belief, you cant take that away or disregard that.

Actually even the "Golden Rule" is a belief, which actually is partially wrong. It came from the "an eye for an eye" belief.
Why do I say its a belief? Would you do it if you dont believe it? or if you dont believe it possible to be done?
Frankly, why should anyone care about this philo-jumbo[1] that you're spouting?  It doesn't really have anything to do with the idea that atheists can be moral without believing in gods.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Why do I say its partially wrong? Well beyond that, at certain circumstances, "impossible" even. Why?
Coz if someone killed you, would you kill him in return? How are you going to do that when Youre already dead?
Thats an old college discussion.
I kind of thought this was obvious, but I guess you're a little too busy spouting philo-jumbo to take the time to think about it.  Because, really, it's simple.  Someone kills me.  I'm dead - I can't punish them.  But I have friends and family who are able (and likely willing) to kill the other guy.  And it just spirals from there.  It ends up with a lot of people dead and groups which hate each other with a passion, and will look for any opportunity to kill or hurt the other side.

Quote from: OwnLogic
About Atheists and Skeptics
One defined Atheist as
"simply a lack of belief in a god"
Another defined it as
"doesnt believe in the existence of a god/diety"
Another said
"people who don't believe in gods"

On the other hand.....

Someone defined Atheist as
" they're skeptical of the existence of gods."
Another said
"Atheist=Skeptics as to whether a god exists or not"

Please settle this one. I mean, what is it really?
What is an Atheist? and What is a Skeptic?
Are they the same? or are they different?
People define atheism and skepticism differently, thus why you're getting different definitions.  You're not going to get a single hard and fast definition here.

Quote from: OwnLogic
On Practice
The rule of Knowing God is Obeying his Commandments

1 John 2:3
"And we can be sure that we know him if we obey his commandments."


Knowing that fact changes the scene, How?
If the people or country some say proposes themselves as Christians yet are in chaos or internal conflict or is filled with crimes.
You are talking of "people who dont know God"

So what's your case there? Nothing
You do know that every single religious group ever believes that if only everyone believed the same as them, there'd be no strife, right?  So this isn't really an effective rebuttal.  Because what you're describing is a group where they have differences of opinion - which crop up very frequently when you have something as amorphous as religious beliefs.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Show me a group of people who "really" knows God and show me how they could be in chaos?

Example:
A Group of people, who obeys God
Loves each other as brothers and sisters in faith.
Doesnt Curse, Doesnt Steal, Doesnt covet his neighbor's wife.
Eats what is commanded, and doesnt eat what was not.
Among other things.

How can this group be in chaos?
Oh, easily.  Because nobody's ever content to just focus on their own small group of people who believe the same as they do.  No, they have to try to get other people to follow them as well, especially in a belief system like Christianity which (generally) holds that people who don't believe get punished for eternity.  So they do it to themselves.

Quote from: OwnLogic
The Intangible
One say Love Hope among other examples I mentioned , doesnt count for the proof of God.
No it doesnt, but the postulation is that if God dont exist simply because they are not Demonstrable or are Intangible, what more are these things. At least God had a book written of his claim of existence, Love, Hope, Knowledge, Belief, Future, etc didnt.
People are awfully fond of pointing to a holy book and claiming that their god (or someone important to their religion) wrote it, and therefore it proves their religion is true.  But that isn't actually how it works.

Quote from: OwnLogic
One said you could demonstrate Love (example: giving roses)
 :-\ Really?  :-\

You mean if i gave you a rose, it would mean im in love with you or something?

So the hot girls from this Vegas Hotel gave me a bunch of roses when I entered and I didnt notice that theyre making a proposal of Love.
And therein lies the problem - not everyone demonstrates concepts the same way.  Some people use roses to signify love.  Other people use gifts of chocolate to do so.  Still others use kisses, and so on and so forth.  There's no truly hard and fast way to demonstrate a concept like that, but the point is that people can demonstrate concepts in their own ways (subjectively, as it were).

Quote from: OwnLogic
By the way, God is not a "thing", and is not of the mind too but of Spirit and not a concept. I just used the "Love Hope Fate" stuff in the terms of Intangibility and Non-demonstrability
God is something that exists, according to you...but can't be demonstrated.  Indeed, you've outright said that people have to believe first.  Do you see the problem here?

Quote from: OwnLogic
Past Present and Future
If one says the "Past" is in existence. What is your proof?
If its "past" then that means there is no more of it.
Some may give a Classic Movie, but the movie is still here so its not really "past".
Do you actually expect such facetious and fallacious logic to fly?  The past is not "in existence", the past "existed".  Note the change in verb tense.  I realize the concept might be difficult for you to grasp, seeing as you're still trying to spout this philo-jumbo of yours, but perhaps if you stop trying to spindle and mutilate logic so you can try to fool others into believing in your god, you might have a bit of an easier time with it.

Quote from: OwnLogic
If one say the "Now" is in existence. What is your proof?
If you i say Now this "Now" is written, thats a few seconds ago so that Now is not Now
So what is Now?

Much Worse if you believe in the "Future", what is your proof?
At least the past has a Classic Movie to hold on to.
This is just more of the same.  Perhaps you should stop fixating on your beliefs and actually take some classes in logic.

Quote from: OwnLogic
The point is, you wont have Physical Proof of these yet you can factually say it has, it is, and it will be.
Actually, we do have physical proof.  Take a snapshot of a bird in flight.  That snapshot demonstrates the past, the present, and the future all at the same time.  The image captured by the photo demonstrates the present.  The fact that the bird is flying thus demonstrates both the past and the future - the past is where the bird was before the photo was taken, and the future is where it will be afterward.  It is that simple.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Gods existence is close. Only God's proof of existence is from the things he manifested.
Some would say, "God didnt manifest that, it happened on its own."
If you ask how and ask them up to the very source of it, they end up with an "I dont Know".
Actually, I would ask how you know that your god manifested anything.  Because the fact of the matter is that you don't actually know.  You believe that he did, but you don't know that he did.  Until you can actually show evidence that your god did something, there's no reason to believe you when you say he did.  Better - far better - to admit that we don't know for sure and attempt to figure it out, rather than blithely claim something which you can't possibly prove and play logic and word games to try to justify your belief.

Quote from: OwnLogic
About the Fusion
The main topic of that is Belief, not the Fusion Reactor's usefullness or sustainability really.
I dont know why people concentrated on the Example and forgot about the Idea.
Please read the previous posts.
People are focusing on the example because your idea that belief makes a difference makes no sense at all.  It doesn't matter if someone believes something - that something has to be possible in the first place.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Doubting
It keeps people from losing money, YES
But it also keeps them from earning money, when they doubt everything specially a Good Business.
I said that business owners doubted things that were outside their own control.  That is not the same as them doubting everything.  Seems to me that these giant digest replies of yours aren't working very well - you just end up with a horribly jumbled response, and you're clearly missing things by so doing.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Big Bang Theory
Ill discuss this for the sake of those who cant get over it and keeps mentioning it.

Big Bang is Big Flop
A theory where no proof was given that shows that Order can be a byproduct of Chaos.
You clearly have no clue what you're talking about here.  The Big Bang is not "order from chaos".  For one thing, chaos actually refers to complex systems where slight changes early on cause drastic ones as they progress.  In actual fact, the universe immediately after the Big Bang would not have been chaotic.  It would have been fairly simple and straightforward (at least compared to the universe that now exists).

Quote from: OwnLogic
In a smaller scale, you cant build a doghouse by simply throwing a grenade at your backyard
And this proves that you don't know what you're talking about.  Indeed, I wonder if you've ever read anything about the Big Bang (aside from Christian creationist parodies) to begin with.  For one thing, the Big Bang was not an explosion.  It was an expansion - just a really big one.  For another, there was nothing in the universe to be 'disordered' to begin with.  All of the stuff that makes up the universe came from the Big Bang.

Quote from: OwnLogic
Yet so many people believe it and its in many books taught in many schools.

Point is, its easy for a person to believe in the Big Bang where most of the evidence points against it.
Yet its not easy to believe in God due to the supposed lack of Physical evidence of his Non-Physical Status.

Its Logically Illogical
You know why people accept the Big Bang theory?  It's because it explains the observable evidence without introducing totally unnecessary wrinkles.  Compare that to your religious belief, which doesn't explain the evidence (except in a generic "goddidit" sense) and introduces things (like a deity which preexisted the entire universe) which may well not be necessary.
 1. philosophical mumbo-jumbo

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #724 on: June 24, 2013, 04:27:55 AM »
Can you prove that Atum did NOT create humanity from his tears?

Hi OwnLogic. 

I think that - if only you will BELIEVE, you will SEE that Atum DID create humanity from his tears.

Or is there something wrong with that argument?

Hi again OwnLogic.  Do you have an answer to these two questions?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?