Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 34245 times)

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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #609 on: June 12, 2013, 05:41:39 PM »
DT, my name is One Above All. Other names are included in my signature, but you can just call me "One" or "OAA" for short. I've decided to take a whack at this post of yours, which shows how little you know the Bible. Note that my knowledge of it probably sucks compared to the other members here, but I think my point will be made.

God has said that He is love,

Sorry, but that's just not true.
Quote from: Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Source: http://biblehub.com/exodus/34-14.htm

He hangs the two greatest commandments on Love, to love Him with everything and to love our neighbor as our self.

Also not true.

Quote from: Exodus 20
20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
Idols and Altars

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’
Footnotes:

    Exodus 20:3 Or besides

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&version=NIV

God's love is an example to follow (why I choose to follow)

If punishing the children for what their parents did and demanding animal sacrifice is your definition of "love", I dare not imagine what you consider "hate".

check out Matthew 22:37-40
and 1 John 4:8
Key word is for those who hate me or Mr. Jealous

Offline One Above All

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #610 on: June 12, 2013, 05:45:25 PM »
check out Matthew 22:37-40
and 1 John 4:8
Key word is for those who hate me or Mr. Jealous

All you've proven is that there are clear contradictions in the Bible, which, like virtually every piece of acceptable evidence, points to there being no god.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Aaron123

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #611 on: June 12, 2013, 05:51:14 PM »
1John4:8 talks about God is love

That passage is the word of someone else.  It is not god himself saying that.

Quote
True God is a jealous God (not that his name is jealous),


God himself does state that his name is "Jealous".


Quote
He said that to his chosen people and for them not to bow down to other gods. Same issue of jealousy if you saw your wife in the arms of another man


You can verify the existence of another man, not so much with gods.  Beside, isn't Mr. Jealous suppose to be the only one around?  Mr. Jealous got jealous of... imaginary beings.  Uh, yeah.  Kinda like a parent being jealous of the attention that a child gives to their imaginary friends instead of them.


Quote
But do you understand why?

Mostly because he felt like it.


Quote
please read what I wrote, I think an individual can indeed not believe in God and do these things, however has anger every came over you and you thought of some ill intentions over someone else- is the point I was making

This one, I'll have to admit to misreading it.  The expression "without god, I would rape/kill/etc" pops up too often, and my mind ended up constructing your words as more of the same.  However, I cannot agree with the idea that "the very thought is like the act".  There is a vast difference between thought and act.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #612 on: June 12, 2013, 05:52:29 PM »
check out Matthew 22:37-40
and 1 John 4:8
Key word is for those who hate me or Mr. Jealous

All you've proven is that there are clear contradictions in the Bible, which, like virtually every piece of acceptable evidence, points to there being no god.

What's the contradiction? That God is a jealous God in the OT, freeing his people from Egypt but they still had Egypt in them? versus God saying that He is love because Jesus came to fulfill the law and now the law (OT law that you quoted) is fulfilled in love. I don't think it's a contradiction the commands of exodus the people could not keep, so Christ did all the requirements and says believe on me, love me and love your neighbor.

What piece of acceptable evidence says there is no God?

Offline One Above All

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #613 on: June 12, 2013, 05:54:41 PM »
What's the contradiction? That God is a jealous God in the OT, freeing his people from Egypt but they still had Egypt in them? versus God saying that He is love because Jesus came to fulfill the law and now the law (OT law that you quoted) is fulfilled in love. I don't think it's a contradiction the commands of exodus the people could not keep, so Christ did all the requirements and says believe on me, love me and love your neighbor.

This paragraph makes no sense to me. I dunno if it's the language difference or if it's just full of BS. Would one of the atheist members mind translating this for me?

What piece of acceptable evidence says there is no God?

All pieces of acceptable evidence. The suffering of people who believe in the same god you do, for one, points to that god not existing.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #614 on: June 12, 2013, 05:59:15 PM »
What's the contradiction? That God is a jealous God in the OT, freeing his people from Egypt but they still had Egypt in them? versus God saying that He is love because Jesus came to fulfill the law and now the law (OT law that you quoted) is fulfilled in love. I don't think it's a contradiction the commands of exodus the people could not keep, so Christ did all the requirements and says believe on me, love me and love your neighbor.
What exactly does 'fulfilling' a law mean?  My understanding of 'law' doesn't really make the word 'fulfill' apply.  One can obey or disobey a law; one can enact or repeal a law...how exactly does one fulfill a law?  Do you mean that the OT law's purpose had bee fulfilled?  If so, what purpose was that??
Quote
What piece of acceptable evidence says there is no God?
I disagree with One Above All that a contradictory or nonsensical bible provides positive evidence that there is no god.  What it does suggest is that the bible should probably not be taken as evidence for any real-world phenomenon - it should be considered an untrustworthy source for describing reality.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #615 on: June 12, 2013, 06:19:24 PM »
1John4:8 talks about God is love

That passage is the word of someone else.  It is not god himself saying that.

Quote
True God is a jealous God (not that his name is jealous),


God himself does state that his name is "Jealous".


Quote
He said that to his chosen people and for them not to bow down to other gods. Same issue of jealousy if you saw your wife in the arms of another man


You can verify the existence of another man, not so much with gods.  Beside, isn't Mr. Jealous suppose to be the only one around?  Mr. Jealous got jealous of... imaginary beings.  Uh, yeah.  Kinda like a parent being jealous of the attention that a child gives to their imaginary friends instead of them.


Quote
But do you understand why?

Mostly because he felt like it.


Quote
please read what I wrote, I think an individual can indeed not believe in God and do these things, however has anger every came over you and you thought of some ill intentions over someone else- is the point I was making

This one, I'll have to admit to misreading it.  The expression "without god, I would rape/kill/etc" pops up too often, and my mind ended up constructing your words as more of the same.  However, I cannot agree with the idea that "the very thought is like the act".  There is a vast difference between thought and act.


I see, you want to see God say that He is love, I know of Him confirming His love Jn3:16, Rm5:8 but not saying He is love like He is jealous- guess I'll need to do more research and I'm cool with that
His creation began to worship created things,  hence the jealousy. He did so much for Israel but they didn't worship Him as God
True He does call himself jealous I was looking at Exodus 20:4-5 before the verse was posted again I just need to do more studying
Flood happen to preserve the bloodline for Christ to be born (probably for another forum)

Good discussion

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #616 on: June 12, 2013, 07:33:17 PM »
@DT

you clearly have not studied on your history of Yahweh. Yahweh IN THE BIBLE believed in other gods. Thats why he states "no other gods BEFORE me" in the story book. He was a side god in a pantheon of gods. The other gods you call created, were the other gods in the pantheon that Yahweh was a part of, and Yahweh wasnt even the head guy. Ba'al was... you know, the bulls and calfs that the "chosen people" kept worshiping. Well, they werent worshiping the statues any more than Christians worship a cross, that was Ba'al's symbol. You might see that gold cross around peoples necks, on top of your church, on your bible, on your car bumper, etc. well switch that with a bull and you'll get the idea.

How you know they both were non-existent? Well, see, we both agree Ba'al doesnt exist. You called him created. Well, to those people back then, Ba'al was as real if not more powerful than Yahweh who was simply the god of war (like the video game). Now, how on earth could these people who created Yahweh put him on a lower level than a clearly non-existent god? Think about that.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #617 on: June 12, 2013, 08:22:20 PM »
I see, you want to see God say that He is love,

You were the one that said:

Quote
God has said that He is love

Thus, it's only reasonable to expect a passage where the words "I am love" or something to that effect is plainly spoken by the character in question.  You have cited passages of other characters speaking about god in that way, but nothing from the G-man himself.



Quote
I know of Him confirming His love Jn3:16,

Well, if you count god and Jesus as one and the same, that could sorta, kinda count, though you'd have to wonder why
1) "the father" never directly said "I am love"
2) why "god" states this indirectly, and refered to himself in the third person
3) why it took so long for him to say anything to this effect

Not to mention that if god and Jesus are one and the same, this whole "the father and the son" thing doesn't make any sense.


Quote
Rm5:8


Romans 5:8

This is not a passage about god declaring "I am love".  This is someone else attributing love as a characteristic of god.



Quote
but not saying He is love like He is jealous- guess I'll need to do more research and I'm cool with that

The whole "my name is jealous" thing comes from Exodus 34:14, for what it's worth.


Quote
His creation began to worship created things,  hence the jealousy. He did so much for Israel but they didn't worship Him as God
True He does call himself jealous I was looking at Exodus 20:4-5 before the verse was posted again I just need to do more studying

Do you believe that the god in the bible is the one and only god out there?  If so, what exactly is god getting jealous about?  A collective bunch of imaginary friends?  If there are other gods out there, why is it that they (appearently) are unable and unwilling to share?


Quote
Flood happen to preserve the bloodline for Christ to be born (probably for another forum)

Well, that's a bit of an abrupt subject shift.  Where's that in the bible.  To my recollection, there's nothing about "preserving the bloodline for christ".  (but there is a lot of talk about people being--allegedly--so evil, that they deserved to die)
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #618 on: June 13, 2013, 03:04:49 AM »
If I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears, what happens when I die - given your belief that only Yahweh exists?
I believe that if a person does not confess and believe in (Yahweh) they will spend eternity without God, separated from Him in hell.

Thank you.  Now look back at the point I have been making in this thread.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Given that different holy books say different things, what reason is there to choose one over another?

Gotcha, I was saying the heavens, earth etc points to a creator, and for me that's God and his son Jesus. Though I have not ventured into the beliefs of all religion my belief is that there is a one true God.

You admit you haven't looked at all religions - but, lucky you! - you were born in a Christian country so you got a mighty head start.  The religion that is true is the one you were brought up in.  South Illinois is even in the Bible Belt, so you're even luckier there.

But consider the "evidence" you put forward - existence, cosmos, morality - and your admission that all they do is point to A creator.  So if I had been brought up worshipping Atum, I would have no more evidence than you as to who (if any) the One True God actually is.

That's the point.  That all the "evidence of gods" you cite works equally well forn any god you care to name.  So there is NO reason for anyone to look any further than the god they were brought up with (in the same way that you didn't).  But your god will condemn all those people to hell, for making the wrong choice when there was nothing to point them in the right direction.

Your salvation is accident of birth.  If you had been born in another time, another land, you would have been raised worshipping a different god, being told that the evidence for that god was the skies and the earth, and accepting every word.   You would, I am sure, have been a good man, a devout man, a man who bent the knee to the god he firmly believed was the One True God and strived in every way to do its bidding.

And then you die, and Yahweh sends you to hell forever.

Explain to me clearly why you consider Yahweh to be "good"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #619 on: June 13, 2013, 05:29:48 AM »
@DT

you clearly have not studied on your history of Yahweh. Yahweh IN THE BIBLE believed in other gods. Thats why he states "no other gods BEFORE me" in the story book. He was a side god in a pantheon of gods. The other gods you call created, were the other gods in the pantheon that Yahweh was a part of, and Yahweh wasnt even the head guy. Ba'al was... you know, the bulls and calfs that the "chosen people" kept worshiping. Well, they werent worshiping the statues any more than Christians worship a cross, that was Ba'al's symbol. You might see that gold cross around peoples necks, on top of your church, on your bible, on your car bumper, etc. well switch that with a bull and you'll get the idea.

How you know they both were non-existent? Well, see, we both agree Ba'al doesnt exist. You called him created. Well, to those people back then, Ba'al was as real if not more powerful than Yahweh who was simply the god of war (like the video game). Now, how on earth could these people who created Yahweh put him on a lower level than a clearly non-existent god? Think about that.

Just wanted to revise... El being the head god, his son being Ba'al both had the bull as their symbol.

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #620 on: June 13, 2013, 07:44:07 AM »
I believe the flood happen,

oh jesus christ.  You are an adult posting this for the world to see?  Adults should not believe such things and if they do they should certainly not say such things out loud to other people.  Not even in the closet of your basement with a pillow over your head.  You should be mortified.  I am genuinely embarrassed for you.  What you are saying is literally equivalent to saying you believe Perseus killed Medusa and used her head to turn the Kraken to stone.  How can you expect another grown adult to take you seriously?

What other preposterous things do you believe?  There really is a giant red dog named Clifford?  Hansel and Gretel really did kill a witch in a gingerbread house?  Babies arrive via storks?  Do you stay indoors during full moons out of fear of werewolves? 

can I explain all OT happens to someone that wants evidence, nope

That should be game, set and match, then, DT.  You just admitted you have no good reason to believe it.

but you said something about faith " I could have tried to maintain faith in the Force (as you do in god)" and as a Christian I have faith.

I removed some text that you had quoted because it seemed extraneous.  If you feel the removed text detracts from your point, please let me know and I will put it back.

DT, my whole point about faith was that it is a stupid thing to have.  Did you miss that or are you just conveniently glossing over it? 

and we know faith is created to individuals as righteousness,

I have not idea what that means.  Blind faith is not righteous, whatever the idiots at your church may have told you.  Blind faith is stupidity.  It is primitive.  It is the tool of con men and charlatans.

I wish I had the answer, but until then I have no choice but to continue to ask, seek, knock, continue to grow, continue to read and continue to pray.

So you are saying I should continue to try to use my Jedi Powers?

And grow?  What does that mean?  In what way are you growing?  You are shrinking.  You are regressing back into childhood with these childish beliefs. 


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Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #621 on: June 13, 2013, 07:49:22 AM »
Links:
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #622 on: June 13, 2013, 08:16:05 AM »
What's the contradiction? That God is a jealous God in the OT, freeing his people from Egypt but they still had Egypt in them? versus God saying that He is love because Jesus came to fulfill the law and now the law (OT law that you quoted) is fulfilled in love. I don't think it's a contradiction the commands of exodus the people could not keep, so Christ did all the requirements and says believe on me, love me and love your neighbor.
What exactly does 'fulfilling' a law mean?  My understanding of 'law' doesn't really make the word 'fulfill' apply.  One can obey or disobey a law; one can enact or repeal a law...how exactly does one fulfill a law?  Do you mean that the OT law's purpose had bee fulfilled?  If so, what purpose was that??
Quote
What piece of acceptable evidence says there is no God?
I disagree with One Above All that a contradictory or nonsensical bible provides positive evidence that there is no god.  What it does suggest is that the bible should probably not be taken as evidence for any real-world phenomenon - it should be considered an untrustworthy source for describing reality.

Fulfilling in this case is up holding, Matthew 5:17, Galatians 3:24 talks about Jesus fulfilling the law.  for an understanding of the reason for the law Gal 3:19-26 explains the law was to show them their faults. In the OT there was a lot of ordinances that had to be upheld along with sacrifices for there mess ups, now Christ has fulfilled the law.


Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #623 on: June 13, 2013, 08:47:29 AM »
I believe the flood happen,

oh jesus christ.  You are an adult posting this for the world to see?  Adults should not believe such things and if they do they should certainly not say such things out loud to other people.  Not even in the closet of your basement with a pillow over your head.  You should be mortified.  I am genuinely embarrassed for you.  What you are saying is literally equivalent to saying you believe Perseus killed Medusa and used her head to turn the Kraken to stone.  How can you expect another grown adult to take you seriously?

What other preposterous things do you believe?  There really is a giant red dog named Clifford?  Hansel and Gretel really did kill a witch in a gingerbread house?  Babies arrive via storks?  Do you stay indoors during full moons out of fear of werewolves? 
I'm not ashamed of what I believe. Why is it that what I believe gets under your skin? A discussion is all about differences and why someone takes the stance they do
can I explain all OT happens to someone that wants evidence, nope

That should be game, set and match, then, DT.  You just admitted you have no good reason to believe it.
but you said something about faith " I could have tried to maintain faith in the Force (as you do in god)" and as a Christian I have faith.
I removed some text that you had quoted because it seemed extraneous.  If you feel the removed text detracts from your point, please let me know and I will put it back.

DT, my whole point about faith was that it is a stupid thing to have.  Did you miss that or are you just conveniently glossing over it? 
I'm not going to pretend to be a know it all Christian that can explain everything, if I don't know something there is no shame in saying I don't know and search for answers

and we know faith is created to individuals as righteousness,

I have not idea what that means.  Blind faith is not righteous, whatever the idiots at your church may have told you.  Blind faith is stupidity.  It is primitive.  It is the tool of con men and charlatans.

met to say faith is credited to individuals as righteousness
if you apply for a job with the hope of getting the job, are you not exercising faith that you will get the job? and then have to wait for the call however long that will take and would you call this hope, faith,confidence in you getting the job blind faith?
I wish I had the answer, but until then I have no choice but to continue to ask, seek, knock, continue to grow, continue to read and continue to pray.

So you are saying I should continue to try to use my Jedi Powers?
sure, but only in your basement with no windows and a pillow 
And grow?  What does that mean?  In what way are you growing?  You are shrinking.  You are regressing back into childhood with these childish beliefs.
How do you think we as humans got here or even dinosaurs? there are quite a few theories out there, and they all need some form of belief/faith due to acceptable or lack of acceptable evidence

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #624 on: June 13, 2013, 08:51:41 AM »
Hello, DT, welcome to WWGHA.  My use of green boldface font indicates that I am speaking as a moderator, not as a participant in the discussion.

You appear to be having some difficulties with the quoting function.  I suggest you spend some time in the Test Area experimenting with it so you can get the hang of it.  The Test Area is located here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html

Use of the Preview button before you submit a post will also assist you in determining whether your post has any formatting errors.

It's also a good idea for you to keep quoted material to a minimum.  Quoting an entire post and adding only one sentence at the end of it makes a post difficult to read.  In such cases, you should trim the quoted material to just the part you're actually responding to.

Finally, please note that the use of the green font is restricted to moderator use for giving moderator instructions (as I'm doing here).  If you wish to use color to give emphasis to a post, please use a different color.  Thanks.

[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #625 on: June 13, 2013, 08:59:23 AM »
If I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears, what happens when I die - given your belief that only Yahweh exists?
I believe that if a person does not confess and believe in (Yahweh) they will spend eternity without God, separated from Him in hell.

Thank you.  Now look back at the point I have been making in this thread.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Given that different holy books say different things, what reason is there to choose one over another?

Gotcha, I was saying the heavens, earth etc points to a creator, and for me that's God and his son Jesus. Though I have not ventured into the beliefs of all religion my belief is that there is a one true God.

You admit you haven't looked at all religions - but, lucky you! - you were born in a Christian country so you got a mighty head start.  The religion that is true is the one you were brought up in.  South Illinois is even in the Bible Belt, so you're even luckier there.

But consider the "evidence" you put forward - existence, cosmos, morality - and your admission that all they do is point to A creator.  So if I had been brought up worshipping Atum, I would have no more evidence than you as to who (if any) the One True God actually is.

That's the point.  That all the "evidence of gods" you cite works equally well forn any god you care to name.  So there is NO reason for anyone to look any further than the god they were brought up with (in the same way that you didn't).  But your god will condemn all those people to hell, for making the wrong choice when there was nothing to point them in the right direction.

Your salvation is accident of birth.  If you had been born in another time, another land, you would have been raised worshipping a different god, being told that the evidence for that god was the skies and the earth, and accepting every word.   You would, I am sure, have been a good man, a devout man, a man who bent the knee to the god he firmly believed was the One True God and strived in every way to do its bidding.

And then you die, and Yahweh sends you to hell forever.

Explain to me clearly why you consider Yahweh to be "good"?

Though I may have been born in a Christian country, my family was not the church going type. The decision I made to follow Christ was my own. Why Yahweh is good, I believe Jesus died for me when I was His enemy, John 3:16-18. And after dying life does not end for me. Why did you choose what you believe? and what book does your religion use?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #626 on: June 13, 2013, 09:06:48 AM »
Though I may have been born in a Christian country, my family was not the church going type. The decision I made to follow Christ was my own.

Good show!  So when you started to consider "gods", what order did you look at those gods in, may I ask? 

I note you also didn't answer the question I posed - though you quoted in its entirety - you answered something quite different.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #627 on: June 13, 2013, 09:55:17 AM »
I'm not ashamed of what I believe.

But you should be.  Noah's ark is a children's story.

Why is it that what I believe gets under your skin? A discussion is all about differences and why someone takes the stance they do

It is not what you believe that gets under my skin.  It is your stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality that gets under my skin.  I only want to believe true things because that helps me make the best decisions about reality.  If processed sugar actually causes obesity and cancer, I want to believe that.  If vaccination actually causes autism, I want to believe that.  If my wife is actually banging the pool boy, I want to believe that.  If a deity named yhwh who was the object of an Iron Age Canaanite cult actually exists, I want to believe that.  But if none of those things are true, then I do not want to believe them.

The absolute best way we have to assess what is real is science and rationality.  I look at evidence and question whether my beliefs really are true.  If not, I must update them.  I have shown you where your beliefs - your model of reality - is inaccurate.  Yet, you do not update your model.  That is frustrating, to say the least.  I ask myself "what is wrong with this guy?  Does he not want to have true beliefs?" 

And that is the problem.  The absolute best tools we have to assess what is true are science and rationality.  They may not be perfect, but they are the best we have.  Faith is anethema to rationality and knowing truth.  Faith is a roadblock.  Faith is wanting what you already believe to be true.  It is not a search for truth.  It is thinking you already have the truth, and searching for justification.


I'm not going to pretend to be a know it all Christian that can explain everything, if I don't know something there is no shame in saying I don't know and search for answers

I appreciate that you say that.  The problem is you are not searching for answers.  You are searching for justification.


met [meant] to say faith is credited to individuals as righteousness

It is, but that is wrong.  Blind faith is folly.


if you apply for a job with the hope of getting the job, are you not exercising faith that you will get the job? and then have to wait for the call however long that will take  and would you call this hope, faith,confidence in you getting the job blind faith?

I am sure you are unaware of it, but you are subtly shifting the meaning of the word "faith".  They are not the same thing.  I may be expressing confidence in my skills, but that is justified.  I am an accomplished professional with a history of success. I speak well, dress well and interview well.  The job I would ostensibly be applying for would be something for which I would be qualified.  So confidence would be justified. 

If I were confident about getting the job of first chair oboe for the NY Philharmonic, that would closer to your faith.  I've never touched an oboe in my life. I'm not even sure which end to blow in. So my confidence would be in the face of a mountain of reality against me.  It would be a sort of blind faith.

Similarly, the faith you have demonstrated is in the face of a mountain of evidence indicating your beliefs are completely wrong.  That is blind faith.  And it is turning your back on reality. 
 
I wrote an essay on faith:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,10690.msg240850.html#msg240850

sure, but only in your basement with no windows and a pillow

That's  funny.  I would prefer if you could make the connection between my nonexistent Jedi powers and your god though.

there are quite a few theories out there, and they all need some form of belief/faith due to acceptable or lack of acceptable evidence

No, the good ones don't need faith. 

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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #628 on: June 13, 2013, 10:26:39 AM »
Fulfilling in this case is up holding, Matthew 5:17, Galatians 3:24 talks about Jesus fulfilling the law.  for an understanding of the reason for the law Gal 3:19-26 explains the law was to show them their faults. In the OT there was a lot of ordinances that had to be upheld along with sacrifices for there mess ups, now Christ has fulfilled the law.
From the above, it sounds like you're saying that, in the OT, the 'law' (or laws) was enacted to teach people their faults, and Christ came by to...continue to uphold the law I guess?  Are you saying that the laws of the OT still apply?  Guess I'm still a little confused here.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #629 on: June 14, 2013, 07:29:04 AM »
Hello, DT, welcome to WWGHA.  My use of green boldface font indicates that I am speaking as a moderator, not as a participant in the discussion.

You appear to be having some difficulties with the quoting function.  I suggest you spend some time in the Test Area experimenting with it so you can get the hang of it.  The Test Area is located here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html

Use of the Preview button before you submit a post will also assist you in determining whether your post has any formatting errors.

It's also a good idea for you to keep quoted material to a minimum.  Quoting an entire post and adding only one sentence at the end of it makes a post difficult to read.  In such cases, you should trim the quoted material to just the part you're actually responding to.

Finally, please note that the use of the green font is restricted to moderator use for giving moderator instructions (as I'm doing here).  If you wish to use color to give emphasis to a post, please use a different color.  Thanks.



Ok Thanks

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #630 on: June 14, 2013, 07:49:25 AM »
Hello, DT, welcome to WWGHA.  My use of green boldface font indicates that I am speaking as a moderator, not as a participant in the discussion.

You appear to be having some difficulties with the quoting function.  I suggest you spend some time in the Test Area experimenting with it so you can get the hang of it.  The Test Area is located here:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/board,28.0.html

Use of the Preview button before you submit a post will also assist you in determining whether your post has any formatting errors.

It's also a good idea for you to keep quoted material to a minimum.  Quoting an entire post and adding only one sentence at the end of it makes a post difficult to read.  In such cases, you should trim the quoted material to just the part you're actually responding to.

Finally, please note that the use of the green font is restricted to moderator use for giving moderator instructions (as I'm doing here).  If you wish to use color to give emphasis to a post, please use a different color.  Thanks.



Ok Thanks

"Irony meter is reading at 'clueless', Captain!"
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #631 on: June 14, 2013, 01:04:52 PM »
^^^I see what you did there. And I did not have to quote the entire post to respond..... ;)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #632 on: June 15, 2013, 07:49:22 AM »

[/quote] Good show!  So when you started to consider "gods", what order did you look at those gods in, may I ask? 
I note you also didn't answer the question I posed - though you quoted in its entirety - you answered something quite different.
[/quote]

I talked to people about their faith/belief (Muslims, Hindus may have talked to one or two others). I noticed their belief was about how they lived and how they conducted themselves. If they did good things here on earth that out weighed the bad, they would go to heaven, or if they treated others good they would come back as something better. Yet there was no standard, it was all just willy nilly, bet it all on black and hope in the end you come out in the good, or some believed that there is not a way to heaven but many. So it seemed to me there was no reason, just conduct oneself in the best manner possible.
Christianity makes the claim that there is one God and the only way to Him is by Jesus Christ placing faith in Him, that men are saved. The Bible talks about multitudes that are going to heaven but doesn't make the same claim about hell. Those that are in complete isolation and have or had no way about knowing Christ I would like to believe that they would be saved, and I make this claim on the souls lost during the flood after Christ's death 1Peter 3:18-19 they neither had the law nor grace.
I'll look back through the post for your question

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #633 on: June 15, 2013, 08:01:57 AM »

Quote
Good show!  So when you started to consider "gods", what order did you look at those gods in, may I ask? 
I note you also didn't answer the question I posed - though you quoted in its entirety - you answered something quite different.

I talked to people about their faith/belief (Muslims, Hindus may have talked to one or two others). I noticed their belief was about how they lived and how they conducted themselves. If they did good things here on earth that out weighed the bad, they would go to heaven, or if they treated others good they would come back as something better. Yet there was no standard, it was all just willy nilly, bet it all on black and hope in the end you come out in the good, or some believed that there is not a way to heaven but many. So it seemed to me there was no reason, just conduct oneself in the best manner possible.
Christianity makes the claim that there is one God and the only way to Him is by Jesus Christ placing faith in Him, that men are saved. The Bible talks about multitudes that are going to heaven but doesn't make the same claim about hell. Those that are in complete isolation and have or had no way about knowing Christ I would like to believe that they would be saved, and I make this claim on the souls lost during the flood after Christ's death 1Peter 3:18-19 they neither had the law nor grace.
I'll look back through the post for your question
So, in other words, you personally disagreed that you should be judged by your actions and it would be easier to go to heaven if you were only judged by if you believed in a fairy tale...

seems legit.

But how did you discern which was the TRUTH (if any)? All you did was choose the one story you liked the most probably because it required you to do nothing. Why would you even consider there is a god, let alone a god that wrote a book? And why would accept a demonstrably false book as some sort of authority?

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #634 on: June 15, 2013, 08:15:44 AM »

[/quote]
From the above, it sounds like you're saying that, in the OT, the 'law' (or laws) was enacted to teach people their faults, and Christ came by to...continue to uphold the law I guess?  Are you saying that the laws of the OT still apply?  Guess I'm still a little confused here.
[/quote]

John1:19, Romans 6:14 We are not under the law but under grace, and this grace and truth came by Jesus. Jesus fulfilled the law by being the righteous requirement and now we place faith in Him to take away sins, instead of the rules in the law. Sacrifices had to be made if the law was broken, Christ was that sacrifice once and for all (fulfilling the law and its requirements) to set man free from the law.  The Israelites thought they could keep and uphold the law but found out they couldn't (the 10 commandments was just a section of things they had to uphold but there was more Exodus chapter 20 through chapter 23) - yes the law was to teach them their faults, So no the OT law does not still apply because Christ fulfilled the requirements and by faith His righteousness is exchanged for our falling short

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #635 on: June 15, 2013, 09:34:57 AM »

met [meant] to say faith is credited to individuals as righteousness

It is, but that is wrong.  Blind faith is folly.


I am sure you are unaware of it, but you are subtly shifting the meaning of the word "faith".  They are not the same thing. 

Similarly, the faith you have demonstrated is in the face of a mountain of evidence indicating your beliefs are completely wrong.  That is blind faith.  And it is turning your back on reality. 
 
That's  funny.  I would prefer if you could make the connection between my nonexistent Jedi powers and your god though.


No, the good ones don't need faith.
[/quote]

And my question remains how do you believe we as humans got here? How did the smallest minute atom get here? When it comes down to it you have to place your faith into something or confidence in something or someone's theory
Faith is and I quote - Complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Confidence - The feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust. If you want to say these are different I both agree and disagree with you - If we were to say I put complete trust (faith) in you playing the oboe vs I put my firm trust (confidence) in you playing the oboe these are pretty much the same (since we haven't heard you yet), but when we look at something negative such as I have faith he played the oboe bad versus I'm confident he played the oboe bad. If I did not witness you getting down on the oboe I would have to trust the bad reviews, the name bashing, the written reports of what you and this oboe didn't do, versus if I was there I could say without a shadow of a doubt this man does not need to be playing the oboe. You may feel it's blind faith but I believe the evidence points to a creator.

Not sure how I'm turning my back on reality, and I agree science is good, I like science biology was my major in college. But let's face it there are somethings science can't explain, and I honestly feel evolution is not science and wasn't sure why this theory, if you will, was being taught in any school.

For your Jedi powers we can trace the origin and see ok yeah this is not real, but can science 100% rule out that there is not a God?
Is not science suppose to look into all possibilities (regardless of how big or small) and to answer the hard questions? And if 100% surety can be given to the thought of there being no God - then there is no reason for debate, no reason for this website, no reason for questions, we'll just belief we got here some how, live and then die.


Offline bertatberts

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #636 on: June 15, 2013, 11:18:10 AM »
< - snip - >

Faith is and I quote - Complete trust or confidence in someone or something. Confidence - The feeling or belief that one can rely on someone or something; firm trust. 
That is the definition given to people who have faith/trust in another person or thing. The second definition is the one you should have used. I.E. Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction Emphasis mine. the two are mutually exclusive. "Faith may be defined briefly as an illogical belief in the occurrence of the improbable. A man full of faith is simply one who has lost (or never had) the capacity for clear and realistic thought. He is not a mere ass; he is actually ill."
H.L. Mencken

Quote from: Blind faith
BLIND FAITH: There has never existed in the world anything more intensely vile, contemptuous, and dangerous to freedom, peace and progress as deeply held blind faith in organized religions and holy dogmas. The Xian dominated societies of the world has painted a lovely picture of the faithful flock and how deserving faithful people are of praise and respect. Beneath the Xian whitewash is the plain hard truth. If a person treated his children half as cruelly as the supposedly divine and omnibenevolent Judeo-Xian blood god has treated his children, the Xians would be out to give him the death penalty. Does belief in cruel gods create cruel people, or do cruel people simply make their gods in their own likeness?

Faith is the nemesis of logic. Where there is religious faith, there can not be logic. The two are quite completely mutually exclusive. In every endeavor other than religion, if a person accepts things as being true with no quality evidence to support such beliefs, then the person is considered foolish and even contemptible by society. When acting exactly the same way regarding religion, the person is considered as perfectly normal. There is in faith an immunity to reality.

Faith is the destroyer of science and progress. Faith in gods creates a horrible aversion to change. The status quo is the rule of thumb and the "faithful" conservative Xian's morals are the worn out morals of liberals from forty or so years before him. Yet along he goes dragging his feet. "Why free the slaves? It's in the bible." The faithful Xians were enraged when Ben Franklin invented the lightning rod. "It's a sin" they screamed. "God surely controls the lightning and who are you to interfere?" There was Galileo who was tried by the Catholic Church for sacrilege because he claimed the world was round and that the earth orbited the sun, and not the other way around as the bible says. The Fundies are this very minute all across the country attempting to remove evolution from the science books, even though it is established as fact. The list is endless. Religion and science are mutually exclusive. Xian Science is nothing but an oxymoron.

Faith is the slaughterer of freedom. If there is a concept more hateful to the hearts of the faithful flock than freedom, then it is unimaginable what it would be. Truly the flock pays due lip service to freedom, but their every endeavor is to control and outlaw it. To pass laws to prohibit sexual preferences in the bedroom of two adults is nothing but pure tyranny. Why do these people care who you're sleeping with? What business is it of there's? The faithful claim that they simply want to live life according to the rules of their god, but they want nothing short of making everyone live by those exact rules. Everywhere you find these faithful people you will see them attempting to control the other people around them. They even have the audacity to claim they are persecuted, simply because people resist them and rail against their bids for totalitarian control. The faithful claim they are patriots, but they resemble old Russian Communism much more closely than capitalism.

Faith is the destructor of individuality. Everywhere the faithful are trying to enact their version of god's word into law and force the rest of society to be just like them. The faithful proudly claim the title of "Sheep". What more needs be said?

Faith is the fountainhead of ignorance. The faithful everywhere cast off logic and science as the temptations of Satan. Any science, theory, or fact which contradicts their religion is perceived to be purely evil. This inevit?ably leads to the embracing of myths and ignorance and the shunning of rational thinking.

Faith is the procreator of intolerance. Faith like nothing else strengthens intolerance and helps it breed and spread. What else would come about from people who claim as divinely inspired a book which espouses slavery, homophobia, murder, infanticide, genocide, racism, rape and kidnapping in the name of a loving god?
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #637 on: June 15, 2013, 04:37:25 PM »
And my question remains how do you believe we as humans got here? How did the smallest minute atom get here? When it comes down to it you have to place your faith into something or confidence in something or someone's theory
The most honest answer to your questions[1] is that we simply do not know how everything first came to be, and likely never will. You say we must place our faith in something, but that is incorrect. Now, the evidence we can observe supports the Big Bang Theory, but the BBT does nothing to address the "cause" of the Bang, if indeed one was even necessary. It also doesn't address the source of matter, again assuming its even necessary. We just don't know.

And I'm OK with not knowing. Seriously, it doesn't bother me that I don't have an explanation. Clearly, you cannot say the same, so you want to put a "creator" into the equation to make yourself feel better[2], but of course the down side is that it is rarely enough for someone to just believe in god. No, they nearly always then insist they know exactly what this god wants and steadfastly set out to enforce his divine will on everyone. All with exactly zero evidence.

If it makes you feel better to believe in a creator, go for it. Just don't claim any divine authority because of it[3].
 1. well, we as humans are the result of millions of years of evolution, but we don't know how the first life came about
 2. and for the zillionth time, I can't understand why an uncaused universe is such a problem for theists but an uncaused creator is a-ok
 3. this is directed at theists in general, not just you, DT
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