Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 37356 times)

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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #580 on: June 12, 2013, 08:26:46 AM »
I am not sure what you mean by "kicking god out of public school, etc." How could a puny human being kick a god out of anywhere he wanted and needed to be?

why can't we pray in public schools, why can't we say the pledge of allegiance, why have we changed AD and BC to CE and BCE, why separate church and state, are some indications that God is not wanted


And the places in the world where the worst stuff keeps happening to people are where god is present in every possible sphere of life--Syria, Lebanon, Haiti, Iraq, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Oklahoma. Warfare, terrorism, natural disasters, poverty, crime, dictators, wave after wave of suffering.

I've been to Iraq and I don't think God is there. why do we feel God is not present in the mist of pain? God says He wishes to lose non of us, but He will not force himself on someone, nor take over your will. We where warned not to fear nor lose heart because of famine, rumors of war and the like.


The least religious, most gay-friendly, sinful, atheistic places like Japan, Belgium, Sweden, Iceland, Washington State and Massachusetts have it pretty nice overall. Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments.

Just to clarify are you saying God should supply "Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments?"

Wonder why god seems to neglect his most faithful followers while lavishing the goodies on the worst sinners? Where is god, indeed?

From what I read and believe  from the Bible, God gave us this and more, but we (believers Adam and Eve) threw it back in His face, lived to please ourselves and then and only when something went wrong do people cry out where is God



<<edited to fix quotes - Anfauglir>>
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 08:37:16 AM by Anfauglir »

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #581 on: June 12, 2013, 08:29:53 AM »
DT, please slow down, take more care with your quotes, and use the "Preview" button.  You are making a bit of a mess at the moment.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #582 on: June 12, 2013, 08:45:04 AM »
Choice is a good thing, and is it the same reason why you choose to deny what I believe?

Why do you deny that Atum created humanity?   That the Purusha gave us the heavens and the firmament?  That Ymir gave us water, mountains, the earth?

This conversation stemmed from you saying that there was clear evidence of your god because of the heavens, the firmament, morality, creation of humanity, etc, as told by your holy book.  I have responded that you are wrong - that other holy books state just as clearly that all those things were created by other gods.

Given that different holy books say different things, what reason is there to choose one over another?

Gotcha, I was saying the heavens, earth etc points to a creator, and for me that's God and his son Jesus. Though I have not ventured into the beliefs of all religion my belief is that there is a one true God.
Educate me with what you believe what happens to you when you die?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #583 on: June 12, 2013, 08:51:33 AM »
Quote from: Anfauglir
Given that different holy books say different things, what reason is there to choose one over another?

Gotcha, I was saying the heavens, earth etc points to a creator, and for me that's God and his son Jesus. Though I have not ventured into the beliefs of all religion my belief is that there is a one true God.

Sure.  And to me the fact that there ARE so many different accounts leads me to believe there is NOT any One True God at all - at least none that I would describe as "good", if eternal damnation awaits anyone who chooses wrong. 

Educate me with what you believe what happens to you when you die?

When we die, our consciousness ceases.  Our bodies decompose.  The world, and the universe, moves on without us.

Suppose I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears?  What do you believe will happen to me when I die?
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 02:53:27 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #584 on: June 12, 2013, 08:55:37 AM »
@DT

so the earth is a circle? Not a sphere?

Good point, but how far away do you have to be from someone so they appear as a grasshopper (size), and how far away from the earth would you have to be for it to appear as a circle?

Online Dante

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #585 on: June 12, 2013, 08:58:33 AM »
I am not sure what you mean by "kicking god out of public school, etc." How could a puny human being kick a god out of anywhere he wanted and needed to be?

why can't we pray in public schools, why can't we say the pledge of allegiance, why have we changed AD and BC to CE and BCE, why separate church and state, are some indications that God is not wanted

I'm calling bullshit. Nobody has ever said no one can pray in public schools. NO ONE!!!!It's only that the school cannot organize and/or condone any prayers BECAUSE not all believers believe in the same imaginary friend.

And, do you have any idea when "under god" was added to the pledge? Impress me. Use Google and find out.

You poor persecuted xians......

Quote

And the places in the world where the worst stuff keeps happening to people are where god is present in every possible sphere of life--Syria, Lebanon, Haiti, Iraq, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Oklahoma. Warfare, terrorism, natural disasters, poverty, crime, dictators, wave after wave of suffering.

I've been to Iraq and I don't think God is there. why do we feel God is not present in the mist of pain? God says He wishes to lose non of us, but He will not force himself on someone, nor take over your will. We where warned not to fear nor lose heart because of famine, rumors of war and the like.

So, your god is not omnimax. You've stated elsewhwere that it isnt all powerful, and now isn't omnipresent? And you worship why????

Seems, according to your book, that it didn't mind taking over the will of Pharaoh, did it?

Your god seems pretty weak. Or perhaps nonexistant.


Quote
Quote
quote author=nogodsforme link=topic=24803.msg557673#msg557673 date=1370636576]

The least religious, most gay-friendly, sinful, atheistic places like Japan, Belgium, Sweden, Iceland, Washington State and Massachusetts have it pretty nice overall. Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments.

Just to clarify are you saying God should supply "Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments?"

No. She's saying that that's just the way it is. Those people don't waste the majority of their time praying or hoping or expecting anything from anyone but other humans. No gods required for a great life. As a matter of fact, exactly the opposite.

Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #586 on: June 12, 2013, 09:01:34 AM »
Given that different holy books say different things, what reason is there to choose one over another?

Gotcha, I was saying the heavens, earth etc points to a creator, and for me that's God and his son Jesus. Though I have not ventured into the beliefs of all religion my belief is that there is a one true God.

Sure.  And to me the fact that there ARE so many different accounts leads me to believe there is NOT any One True God at all - at least none that I would describe as "good", if eternal damnation awaits anyone who chooses wrong. 

Educate me with what you believe what happens to you when you die?

When we die, our consciousness ceases.  Our bodies decompose.  The world, and the universe, moves on without us.

Suppose I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears?  What do you believe will happen to me when I die?
[/quote]

Why just Atum? do other gods not wish for worship in some form or fashion? and if you don't worship them does this account for or deny you of anything? any after life?


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #587 on: June 12, 2013, 09:06:04 AM »
so the earth is a circle? Not a sphere?

Good point, but how far away do you have to be from someone so they appear as a grasshopper (size), and how far away from the earth would you have to be for it to appear as a circle?

I'm going to say.....far enough that you would be able to see that the Middle East was just a tiny fraction of the whole - just the sort of thing I'd put into my holy book to extol my god's wonderous creation.  Of course, that relies on the writer having some way of telling that what he was looking at was his home planet at all.  Given that maps at the time were unilaterally depicted as circles with water surrounding the (known) world of Europe, Asia, and Africa, I think you're reaching a little with this argument.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #588 on: June 12, 2013, 09:08:39 AM »
Suppose I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears?  What do you believe will happen to me when I die?

Why just Atum? do other gods not wish for worship in some form or fashion? and if you don't worship them does this account for or deny you of anything? any after life?

I answered as to what happens according to MY belief system.  Please respond in kind - answer my question according to YOUR belief system.

If I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears, what happens when I die - given your belief that only Yahweh exists?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #589 on: June 12, 2013, 09:28:37 AM »
I am not sure what you mean by "kicking god out of public school, etc." How could a puny human being kick a god out of anywhere he wanted and needed to be?

why can't we pray in public schools, why can't we say the pledge of allegiance, why have we changed AD and BC to CE and BCE, why separate church and state, are some indications that God is not wanted

I'm calling bullshit. Nobody has ever said no one can pray in public schools. NO ONE!!!!It's only that the school cannot organize and/or condone any prayers BECAUSE not all believers believe in the same imaginary friend.

true, yet you and I know that open pray and starting class with prayer was not an uncommon thing

And, do you have any idea when "under god" was added to the pledge? Impress me. Use Google and find out.
'54 - yet we don't say the pledge because of this phrase, that's not seemed as odd
You poor persecuted xians......

Quote

And the places in the world where the worst stuff keeps happening to people are where god is present in every possible sphere of life--Syria, Lebanon, Haiti, Iraq, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Oklahoma. Warfare, terrorism, natural disasters, poverty, crime, dictators, wave after wave of suffering.

I've been to Iraq and I don't think God is there. why do we feel God is not present in the mist of pain? God says He wishes to lose non of us, but He will not force himself on someone, nor take over your will. We where warned not to fear nor lose heart because of famine, rumors of war and the like.

So, your god is not omnimax. You've stated elsewhwere that it isnt all powerful, and now isn't omnipresent? And you worship why????
I don't think I posted that. never the less i stand corrected God is every where I was referring to the hearts, mind and attitude toward God and not worshiping Hime, and why do i worship because he is the only God that can save- that's what i believe
Seems, according to your book, that it didn't mind taking over the will of Pharaoh, did it?
Hardening Pharaoh's heart is taking over his will...seems like your heart is hard toward God so is He taking over your heart?
Your god seems pretty weak. Or perhaps nonexistant.


Quote
Quote
quote author=nogodsforme link=topic=24803.msg557673#msg557673 date=1370636576]

The least religious, most gay-friendly, sinful, atheistic places like Japan, Belgium, Sweden, Iceland, Washington State and Massachusetts have it pretty nice overall. Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments.

Just to clarify are you saying God should supply "Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments?"

No. She's saying that that's just the way it is. Those people don't waste the majority of their time praying or hoping or expecting anything from anyone but other humans. No gods required for a great life. As a matter of fact, exactly the opposite.

Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Offline bertatberts

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #590 on: June 12, 2013, 09:35:47 AM »
Quote from: DT
Choice is a good thing, and is it the same reason why you choose to deny what I believe?
Wrong! Nobody denies what you believe, it's your belief.
To deny a thing you must first have a belief in said thing.
I'd look up what the term deny means before you use it again in future. We have no reason to believe as you do, so we certainly don't deny it.
 
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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #591 on: June 12, 2013, 09:36:18 AM »
Suppose I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears?  What do you believe will happen to me when I die?

Why just Atum? do other gods not wish for worship in some form or fashion? and if you don't worship them does this account for or deny you of anything? any after life?

I answered as to what happens according to MY belief system.  Please respond in kind - answer my question according to YOUR belief system.

If I live my life thanking Atum for creating humanity from his tears, what happens when I die - given your belief that only Yahweh exists?
True. I believe that God is the one true living God and the only why to him is by His Son Jesus, I believe that if a person does not confess and believe in God they will spend eternity without God, separated from Him in hell. And as a believer it gives me no pleasure believing and knowing that this is the fate of many.

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #592 on: June 12, 2013, 09:39:28 AM »
Guess I should be more specific. Miracles stopped after the disciples died, and the Romans wanted to put an end to those who followed Chirst. The world has stopped seeking God, for believers He has promised never to leave us nor forsake us, but as believers as you have said we worshiped other things

Sorry DT.  This answer does not make any sense.  You said there were no more miracles...
because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion.

However, WE didn't actually do it.  It was, according to this last post, Romans, 2000 year ago, or so.  And recall, it was also the Romans, 2000 years ago or so, who made xianity the official religion of the empire.  So we today are being punished for something that happened 2000 years ago.  As I pointed out already, this is hardly fair.

It seems obvious to me that the words you are looking for are "I don't know why there are no miracles any more."  Instead of just saying that you are thrashing around like a drowning man making stuff up.  And it shows by the incoherence of your answers.  Just sack up and admit you haven't got a clue.


Not at all I'm saying God will not usurp your will, He will not force you to do what you don't want to

No, no.  Again, you forget the context of my point.  You had said god does not show up in obvious ways anymore because we kicked him out.  Obviously, there are people who have not kicked him out.  There are people who want him in their lives.  Yet, even for them, he remains mysterious and invisible.  It is not about usurping anyone's will.


why would you have to invite He every day?

What?  How could you be a true xian and even ask that?  Because if you don't constantly invite god into your life he might get the feeling he's not wanted and disappear. Because god craves our constant, incessant begging for his help. (He also likes to hear what unworthy worms we are.)  Because we were supposed to pray all the flipping time for god's intervention on every little detail of our lives.  It was part of putting our lives in the hands of jesus H.

Or because he never showed up in the first place.  So I had to ask and ask and ask and ask...

If you truly believed the when you asked, He was there.

Screw you for trying to make this my fault.  Scummy move.  Whether I believed or not is not the issue.  For the record, I believed.  And even if I didn't, what kind of crappy god ignores genuine requests for help?  It's a catch 22.  god won't help unless you believe.  But you cannot believe unless you get help.   

If you don't mind me asking when you where a believer what where you looking for every day and what made you stop believing?

In my youth.

Strength, guidance, patience, goodness. I never prayed for material things like money or a new car or a pony. 

I read the bible.  The OT killed my faith altogether. It was so obviously a collection of myths, like the greek and roman myths I'd read, or the hindu myths.  If the OT was just a collection of fabulous stories, then the NT and jesus H were bullshit.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #593 on: June 12, 2013, 09:42:14 AM »
Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Not really.  Not if you read the OT.  There is nothing at all about loving each other in the OT.  And very little of it in the NT. 
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Online Dante

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #594 on: June 12, 2013, 09:49:07 AM »
Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Yet I need no gods to love and help and respect my fellow man. Why do you?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #595 on: June 12, 2013, 10:10:43 AM »
Guess I should be more specific. Miracles stopped after the disciples died, and the Romans wanted to put an end to those who followed Chirst. The world has stopped seeking God, for believers He has promised never to leave us nor forsake us, but as believers as you have said we worshiped other things

Sorry DT.  This answer does not make any sense.  You said there were no more miracles...
because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion.

However, WE didn't actually do it.  It was, according to this last post, Romans, 2000 year ago, or so.  And recall, it was also the Romans, 2000 years ago or so, who made xianity the official religion of the empire.  So we today are being punished for something that happened 2000 years ago.  As I pointed out already, this is hardly fair.

It seems obvious to me that the words you are looking for are "I don't know why there are no miracles any more."  Instead of just saying that you are thrashing around like a drowning man making stuff up.  And it shows by the incoherence of your answers.  Just sack up and admit you haven't got a clue.


Not at all I'm saying God will not usurp your will, He will not force you to do what you don't want to

No, no.  Again, you forget the context of my point.  You had said god does not show up in obvious ways anymore because we kicked him out.  Obviously, there are people who have not kicked him out.  There are people who want him in their lives.  Yet, even for them, he remains mysterious and invisible.  It is not about usurping anyone's will.


why would you have to invite He every day?

What?  How could you be a true xian and even ask that?  Because if you don't constantly invite god into your life he might get the feeling he's not wanted and disappear. Because god craves our constant, incessant begging for his help. (He also likes to hear what unworthy worms we are.)  Because we were supposed to pray all the flipping time for god's intervention on every little detail of our lives.  It was part of putting our lives in the hands of jesus H.

Or because he never showed up in the first place.  So I had to ask and ask and ask and ask...

If you truly believed the when you asked, He was there.

Screw you for trying to make this my fault.  Scummy move.  Whether I believed or not is not the issue.  For the record, I believed.  And even if I didn't, what kind of crappy god ignores genuine requests for help?  It's a catch 22.  god won't help unless you believe.  But you cannot believe unless you get help.   

If you don't mind me asking when you where a believer what where you looking for every day and what made you stop believing?

In my youth.

Strength, guidance, patience, goodness. I never prayed for material things like money or a new car or a pony. 

I read the bible.  The OT killed my faith altogether. It was so obviously a collection of myths, like the greek and roman myths I'd read, or the hindu myths.  If the OT was just a collection of fabulous stories, then the NT and jesus H were bullshit.


I'm not saying anything was your fault!!! I'm saying if you asked, He was there and there was no reason to keep asking God in your life.
With what you use to pray for "I think" is what and how God can show up in someone's life. I'm where you were, asking will God answer the things that I'm searching for? I believe he will, now its do I have the patience to wait or do I do my own thing. Many times I have done my own thing, still learning. Yea the old testament is a bit rough, but it parallels what we are talking about, people wanting to see God, so he performs 'fabulous stories' as you say to convince the people of His existence, yet they did what they wanted.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #596 on: June 12, 2013, 10:14:48 AM »
Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Not really.  Not if you read the OT.  There is nothing at all about loving each other in the OT.  And very little of it in the NT.

The ten commandments are toward God and people, the OT is a love story (this is another discussion) and the provisions God has given  the NT has a lot to deal with love.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #597 on: June 12, 2013, 10:17:24 AM »
Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Yet I need no gods to love and help and respect my fellow man. Why do you?

Good question. According to you what is love and this demonstration of love to others? Same question now according to God's standard of love?

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #598 on: June 12, 2013, 11:34:49 AM »
I'm not saying anything was your fault!!! I'm saying if you asked, He was there and there was no reason to keep asking God in your life.

First, you are saying it was my fault.  At least, our fault.  But I'll get to that in a minute. 

Second, this is one of the problems with the idea of being there but in a way we miss.  If god was there, silently, invisibly, imperceptibly, in a way completely undetectable by me, what was the point of being there?  His alleged presence did me no good.  His alleged presence was completely indistinguishable from not being there at all. 

It seems to me that you and I expect the exact same things from reality.  I expect to detect no divine intervention.  You expect to detect no divine intervention.  We both see reality as atheists.  So why do you continue to flounder with a god you expect will continue to remain invisible and undetectable?  You might was well believe in an invisible, undetectable wookie.  Or just simplify and reject both.

As for it being my fault, that was your point from the start:
because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion.

I presume I am part of "we".


With what you use to pray for "I think" is what and how God can show up in someone's life.

Except he didn't. 

Just like when I was younger I tried to use The Force to move small objects far away toward me, like a Jedi.[1]  I could have tried to maintain faith in the Force (as you do in god) and say that the Force really did work, only the effect was imperceptibly small.  I could say that all my Force powers occur in ways that people miss.  Because sometimes I can predict what will happen.  And sometimes people actually do what I ask them to do. 

But I think you and I would both agree that would be ridiculous. 

Do you see the parallels here?   

...do I have the patience to wait or do I do my own thing.

How long should a person wait before deciding it's baloney?  How long should I wait for my Jedi powers to emerge before I decide it is malarkey and Jedi only exist in stories?

Yea the old testament is a bit rough, but it parallels what we are talking about, people wanting to see God, so he performs 'fabulous stories' as you say to convince the people of His existence, yet they did what they wanted.

I do not see how that matters.  So the OT tells some stories that accurately portray the human condition.  Big deal.  Greek myths do at least as good a job at that (because the Greeks were a lot smarter).  And the Greeks put forth a much better ethic and philosophy than the OT, one that we still use today in the west.  And they both have about the same level of "fabulousness".  So because there is truth in the Iliad, does that mean I should believe in Zeus and Athena and the whole pantheon?  I don't think so. 

While you may take the OT in a hand waving, parable fashion, understand that the writers of the NT and jesus H did not.  They took all that baloney literally.  jesus H's genealogy includes Noah (both versions).  In Matt, Luke and Hebrews, jesus H talked about Noah. And Peter referred to Noah and the flood on several occasions. 

Sorry, DT.  You cannot just write off the OT.  It hangs around your neck like an albatross.
 

 1. I really did.  Try, I mean. 
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #599 on: June 12, 2013, 01:10:40 PM »
There is no real difference between 1)people who say they believe in gods, follow religious practices, attend religious services regularly, pray, etc., and 2)people like us who do none of those things. Both groups are equally blessed or cursed or whatever. Lightning still strikes and earthquakes still happen and tornadoes still hit towns and people still lose their jobs or get cancer--no matter what they believe.[1]

You would think there would be some obvious benefit to being religious. But there is not. And it does not matter what religion, Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, whatever. None of them benefit people in any detectable way. Some people get good feelings from being religious, but good feelings are notoriously unreliable as indicators of reality.[2]

In fact when we really measure and look at non-believers vs believers regionally, the gay-friendly, legal-abortion supporting atheists get divorced less, are less likely to end up in jail, have fewer unwanted pregnancies, lower porn use, have higher education levels, better health status, less crime, less poverty, less family violence.

Aren't these good and valuable things? Whether there was a god or not, you would think that following religious rules, praying, etc. would help people, but it does not seem to be the case. Even praying for the sick seems to backfire in reality-- when sick people know they are being prayed for, they actually have worse outcomes, probably because they neglect their health, thinking that prayer is helping them!

Why can't religion at the very least, help people live better lives? The US, despite claims of kicking god out, is still the most religious of all modern developed countries. So, why do we have some of the worst crime rates, terrible health care and school systems, increasing infrastructure and environmental problems. If there is a god, he does not seem to be very active in helping people-- he may as well not exist. That is what no religious person is able to explain.
 1. I think it is also significant that nobody can tell who really believes from people who are just faking or going through the motions, as the recent revelations (heh) about atheist clergy demonstrate...
 2. Drunk people and stoned people also report good feelings, as do people who meditate, listen to music or do sports.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #600 on: June 12, 2013, 01:29:12 PM »
Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Yet I need no gods to love and help and respect my fellow man. Why do you?

Good question. According to you what is love and this demonstration of love to others?

Well, see my post above. I'm guessing it's fairly close, if not exactly the same as your definition. It's wanting to leave this world a better place than I found it, and it's accomplished and demonstrated by words, feelings, and most importantly, actions.

 
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Same question now according to God's standard of love?

I'm not sure I understand your question. But, just in case I do understand it, I think your god's standard of love is far below mine, and yours. I'm guessing you wouldn't punish your children with infinite torture for finite transgressions, such as talking back to the parental unit, having premarital sex, or being unable to believe in an invisible and uninvolved magic being.

Your turn. Why do you require a god to love your fellow man? Would you simply hate, maim, rape, and kill were it not for the rules of your book?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #601 on: June 12, 2013, 04:15:55 PM »
I'm not saying anything was your fault!!! I'm saying if you asked, He was there and there was no reason to keep asking God in your life.

First, you are saying it was my fault.  At least, our fault.  But I'll get to that in a minute. 

Second, this is one of the problems with the idea of being there but in a way we miss.  If god was there, silently, invisibly, imperceptibly, in a way completely undetectable by me, what was the point of being there?  His alleged presence did me no good.  His alleged presence was completely indistinguishable from not being there at all. 

It seems to me that you and I expect the exact same things from reality.  I expect to detect no divine intervention.  You expect to detect no divine intervention.  We both see reality as atheists.  So why do you continue to flounder with a god you expect will continue to remain invisible and undetectable?  You might was well believe in an invisible, undetectable wookie.  Or just simplify and reject both.

As for it being my fault, that was your point from the start:
because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion.

I presume I am part of "we".


With what you use to pray for "I think" is what and how God can show up in someone's life.

Except he didn't. 

Just like when I was younger I tried to use The Force to move small objects far away toward me, like a Jedi.[1]  I could have tried to maintain faith in the Force (as you do in god) and say that the Force really did work, only the effect was imperceptibly small.  I could say that all my Force powers occur in ways that people miss.  Because sometimes I can predict what will happen.  And sometimes people actually do what I ask them to do. 

But I think you and I would both agree that would be ridiculous. 

Do you see the parallels here?   

...do I have the patience to wait or do I do my own thing.

How long should a person wait before deciding it's baloney?  How long should I wait for my Jedi powers to emerge before I decide it is malarkey and Jedi only exist in stories?

Yea the old testament is a bit rough, but it parallels what we are talking about, people wanting to see God, so he performs 'fabulous stories' as you say to convince the people of His existence, yet they did what they wanted.

I do not see how that matters.  So the OT tells some stories that accurately portray the human condition.  Big deal.  Greek myths do at least as good a job at that (because the Greeks were a lot smarter).  And the Greeks put forth a much better ethic and philosophy than the OT, one that we still use today in the west.  And they both have about the same level of "fabulousness".  So because there is truth in the Iliad, does that mean I should believe in Zeus and Athena and the whole pantheon?  I don't think so. 

While you may take the OT in a hand waving, parable fashion, understand that the writers of the NT and jesus H did not.  They took all that baloney literally.  jesus H's genealogy includes Noah (both versions).  In Matt, Luke and Hebrews, jesus H talked about Noah. And Peter referred to Noah and the flood on several occasions. 

Sorry, DT.  You cannot just write off the OT.  It hangs around your neck like an albatross.
 1. I really did.  Try, I mean. 

By no means am I writing off the OT, it was initially brought up to say people of the old testament times questioned the things of God like this forum does. You can't have the NT without the OT, I believe the flood happen, I believe the things that happen in the OT (just so we are clear). can I explain all OT happens to someone that wants evidence, nope but you said something about faith " Try, I mean.  [/nb]  I could have tried to maintain faith in the Force (as you do in god)" and as a Christian I have faith. and we know faith is created to individuals as righteousness, I wish I had the answer, but until then I have no choice but to continue to ask, seek, knock, continue to grow, continue to read and continue to pray.


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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #602 on: June 12, 2013, 04:33:18 PM »
DT, did you just say you think there was once global flood that killed all animal and plant life on the planet, because the OT describes it? Please say I am misreading you.

You can't have the NT without the OT, and you can't have Christianity without Judaism. The Jews were god's chosen people-- why did we need Christianity again? And once we got Christianity, why didn't all Jews just become Christians? I still don't get that.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #603 on: June 12, 2013, 04:44:51 PM »
By no means am I writing off the OT, it was initially brought up to say people of the old testament times questioned the things of God like this forum does. You can't have the NT without the OT, I believe the flood happen, I believe the things that happen in the OT (just so we are clear). can I explain all OT happens to someone that wants evidence, nope but you said something about faith "

If the flood of the bible actually happened, we would've found overwhelming evidence for its occurance a long time ago.  No evidence exists for such a flood.  Same thing with the rest of the OT.  Nothing for a mass exodus, nothing for a golden kingdom of Israel, etc.  The stories in the OT, if true, would've left behind a mountain of evidence.  Yet, none exists.  So either the "real stories" were far smaller in scale, or they were made up entirely.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #604 on: June 12, 2013, 04:53:46 PM »
Yet God has told us time and time again to love one another

Yet I need no gods to love and help and respect my fellow man. Why do you?

Good question. According to you what is love and this demonstration of love to others?

Well, see my post above. I'm guessing it's fairly close, if not exactly the same as your definition. It's wanting to leave this world a better place than I found it, and it's accomplished and demonstrated by words, feelings, and most importantly, actions.

 
Quote
Same question now according to God's standard of love?

I'm not sure I understand your question. But, just in case I do understand it, I think your god's standard of love is far below mine, and yours. I'm guessing you wouldn't punish your children with infinite torture for finite transgressions, such as talking back to the parental unit, having premarital sex, or being unable to believe in an invisible and uninvolved magic being.

Your turn. Why do you require a god to love your fellow man? Would you simply hate, maim, rape, and kill were it not for the rules of your book?

God has said that He is love, He hangs the two greatest commandments on Love, to love Him with everything and to love our neighbor as our self. God's love is an example to follow (why I choose to follow) and I must say that not all understand the aspect of judgment from a God who exemplifies love. Some one asked the question how could a loving God, judge to a pastor or teacher, and his response was this. Imagine being a criminal and standing before the judge, and before the judge gives the verdict he asked the criminal if he had anything to say. the criminal says I would like to believe you are a good judge and will let me good. the judge says you are right about one thing I am good and because of my goodness I will see justice through.
It does some one no good that does not believe in God their entire life to want God to snatch that person up after they die to spend an eternity with Him (guess that could be a form of hell for them), He gave us all a choice and even told us to choose Him, and at the end God's aspect of judgement will be reviled.

Without God I would not rape, kill, or murder my fellow man, but there again according to God's standard the very thought is like the act. I'm trying to grow in this aspect of my life daily, without God and His word I do not believe I would have giving much thought to the subject.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #605 on: June 12, 2013, 05:15:44 PM »
God has said that He is love, He hangs the two greatest commandments on Love, to love Him with everything and to love our neighbor as our self.

Point out the passage where god himself said "I am love".  I don't think it exists.

However, god has said that he is a "jealous god", and that his name is Jealous.  Doesn't sound so loving.


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God's love is an example to follow (why I choose to follow) and I must say that not all understand the aspect of judgment from a God who exemplifies love.


Mr. Jealous killed millions of people in the OT.  I'd hardly call that love.


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Without God I would not rape, kill, or murder my fellow man, but there again according to God's standard the very thought is like the act. I'm trying to grow in this aspect of my life daily, without God and His word I do not believe I would have giving much thought to the subject.

I am without Mr. Jealous, (same with most of us here), and I do not rape, kill or intentionally cause harm to other people.  How do you account for that?  To say "I don't rape/kill only because of god" is not impressive or commendable.  It suggests that your morality is hanging on by a thin thread.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #606 on: June 12, 2013, 05:16:56 PM »
By no means am I writing off the OT, it was initially brought up to say people of the old testament times questioned the things of God like this forum does. You can't have the NT without the OT, I believe the flood happen, I believe the things that happen in the OT (just so we are clear). can I explain all OT happens to someone that wants evidence, nope but you said something about faith "

If the flood of the bible actually happened, we would've found overwhelming evidence for its occurance a long time ago.  No evidence exists for such a flood.  Same thing with the rest of the OT.  Nothing for a mass exodus, nothing for a golden kingdom of Israel, etc.  The stories in the OT, if true, would've left behind a mountain of evidence.  Yet, none exists.  So either the "real stories" were far smaller in scale, or they were made up entirely.

As far as the flood, you have to ask where did all the water come from it wasn't just rain. I believe the grand canyon was shaped by the flood, why we have mountain ranges (fountains of the deep breaking open) why certain sea fossils are found in mountains, petrified trees buried in the up right position and the extension of dinosaurs. There is some things on the internet

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #607 on: June 12, 2013, 05:25:23 PM »
DT, my name is One Above All. Other names are included in my signature, but you can just call me "One" or "OAA" for short. I've decided to take a whack at this post of yours, which shows how little you know the Bible. Note that my knowledge of it probably sucks compared to the other members here, but I think my point will be made.

God has said that He is love,

Sorry, but that's just not true.
Quote from: Exodus 34:14
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

Source: http://biblehub.com/exodus/34-14.htm

He hangs the two greatest commandments on Love, to love Him with everything and to love our neighbor as our self.

Also not true.

Quote from: Exodus 20
20 And God spoke all these words:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 “You shall have no other gods before[a] me.

4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 “You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 “Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

13 “You shall not murder.

14 “You shall not commit adultery.

15 “You shall not steal.

16 “You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 “You shall not covet your neighbor’s house. You shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, “Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die.”

20 Moses said to the people, “Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning.”

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.
Idols and Altars

22 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven: 23 Do not make any gods to be alongside me; do not make for yourselves gods of silver or gods of gold.

24 “‘Make an altar of earth for me and sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, your sheep and goats and your cattle. Wherever I cause my name to be honored, I will come to you and bless you. 25 If you make an altar of stones for me, do not build it with dressed stones, for you will defile it if you use a tool on it. 26 And do not go up to my altar on steps, or your private parts may be exposed.’
Footnotes:

    Exodus 20:3 Or besides

Source: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus+20&version=NIV

God's love is an example to follow (why I choose to follow)

If punishing the children for what their parents did and demanding animal sacrifice is your definition of "love", I dare not imagine what you consider "hate".
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #608 on: June 12, 2013, 05:30:13 PM »
God has said that He is love, He hangs the two greatest commandments on Love, to love Him with everything and to love our neighbor as our self.

Point out the passage where god himself said "I am love".  I don't think it exists.

However, god has said that he is a "jealous god", and that his name is Jealous.  Doesn't sound so loving.
1John4:8 talks about God is love

True God is a jealous God (not that his name is jealous), He said that to his chosen people and for them not to bow down to other gods. Same issue of jealousy if you saw your wife in the arms of another man

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God's love is an example to follow (why I choose to follow) and I must say that not all understand the aspect of judgment from a God who exemplifies love.


Mr. Jealous killed millions of people in the OT.  I'd hardly call that love.
But do you understand why?

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Without God I would not rape, kill, or murder my fellow man, but there again according to God's standard the very thought is like the act. I'm trying to grow in this aspect of my life daily, without God and His word I do not believe I would have giving much thought to the subject.

I am without Mr. Jealous, (same with most of us here), and I do not rape, kill or intentionally cause harm to other people.  How do you account for that?  To say "I don't rape/kill only because of god" is not impressive or commendable.  It suggests that your morality is hanging on by a thin thread.

please read what I wrote, I think an individual can indeed not believe in God and do these things, however has anger every came over you and you thought of some ill intentions over someone else- is the point I was making