Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 51627 times)

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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #551 on: June 07, 2013, 11:05:47 AM »
God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually.

?  Why is god so coy?  What's the problem?  He used to do big, flashy, Cecil B DeMille type miracles.  Now he acts in ways we don't even notice.  Seriously?


But God is love 1Jn4:8 

No, no, no.  god is Jealousy.

Yea, because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion. Kicked Him out of public school, the government, work place etc. And when something "bad" happens we say where was God? Where did you send Him when you told Him to get out of your life? We want evidence but what would we do with the evidence? how would that change you? Honestly?

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #552 on: June 07, 2013, 11:11:00 AM »
Both sides of the coin, I thought you'd like that.
One side of that coin is substantially more compelling and believable than the other side.

Nothing in that could be credited to the Bible in your opinion?  Do you see it as mere a coincidence?

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #553 on: June 07, 2013, 11:17:05 AM »
But what has your god done for you?

Well, Dad gave Me My name, taught Me how to read Futhark runes, and nommed Me for Queen of Earth (1999-2002).  In My tenure I abolished Original Sin, cancelled Judgment Day and replaced it with a potluck supper[1], and crafted a kickass Truth Spell (thereby making Me the de facto godmother of Anonymous, Wikileaks and untold numbers of investigative journalists).  The spell, and some advice from a Krynnish archmage, also got Me out of an abusive marriage.

You're welcome.   ;D
 1. Please bring 10 dozen whole wheat buns and a tub of margarine.

Why such a sort tenure? :laugh:

Offline Astreja

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #554 on: June 07, 2013, 11:20:41 AM »
Why such a sort tenure? :laugh:

I had a hissy-fit when Dubya invaded Iraq on My holiday (the vernal equinox).  I was also fed up with micromanaging the planet 24/7/365, and not getting a good night's sleep because of delegations of space cats from the Pleiades showing up unexpectedly at 3 a.m.

So I handed off to Auntie Tiamat.  She's the boss now.   ;D
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #555 on: June 07, 2013, 11:25:15 AM »
Both sides of the coin, I thought you'd like that.
One side of that coin is substantially more compelling and believable than the other side.

Nothing in that could be credited to the Bible in your opinion?  Do you see it as mere a coincidence?

Insofar as any sort of gained or acquired knowledge of the world around us from the bible?  I see no coincidence, but then again I don't see anything in the bible that actually does explain anything about reality.  Did you have a specific claim in mind?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #556 on: June 07, 2013, 11:34:02 AM »
God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually. I agree no visible being manifested himself to my eyes. But God is love 1Jn4:8
 

The above statements represent no more than unsubstantiated wishful thinking. You said yourself that there has been no visible (or any other sensory) manifestation of God to you, yet you have decided to accept that the type of God you believe in exists because? I would suggest that one of the reasons is because as most people, you too are comfortable in your 'personal foundation' warts and all and not really all that interested in question and calling on the carpet the "givens" you have always accepted.
There was an old thread here that talked about atheism being the default position, but I am persuaded that faith in gods is the position society is forced into from a very young age making it the synthetically default position that is not acquired via logical means. This faith is so deeply ingrained that its lack of a firm foundation is rarely explored or questioned and those that do dare to question it are often prematurely judged as being wrong before any evidence has been brought to the table to back that assertion.
Long story short, start questioning your feelings, beliefs, and perceptions of reality and what you may often find is that what you know in your heart to be so really isn't.

I never had the capacity to love the way that I do now honestly and that's been the manifestation for me. Insight was from seeking and growing ever since

Why do you say your CAPACITY increased? Just because you previously didn't do something doesn't mean that you did not possess the capacity to do that something. You more than likely always had the capacity, you just may have lacked the impetus and motivation to realize your ability to act in that capacity.

I question a lot, ask a lot of questions on things that I do not understand as it pertains to both the bible and life, and even research for myself and look at research from others. Is faith or believing in God truly the "default" position? People get upset when intelligent individuals say they believe in the existence of God and give credit to Him for his creation versus man. I've look at what the science community says and like science and enjoy research, but when it boils down to the existence of man either way you look at it you have to believe in something, I chose God as the author.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #557 on: June 07, 2013, 11:47:42 AM »


Nothing in that could be credited to the Bible in your opinion?  Do you see it as mere a coincidence?
[/quote]

Insofar as any sort of gained or acquired knowledge of the world around us from the bible?  I see no coincidence, but then again I don't see anything in the bible that actually does explain anything about reality.  Did you have a specific claim in mind?
[/quote]

Explain or mention, what about the earth being a circle and the expansion of the universe that has been discovered after the writing of the bible? take a look at these verses Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:16 versus http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_expansion.html

It is evident the bible speaks in parables and riddles to make us think, but if you do research for both sides of the coin, I feel it's apparent to what the bible has said man is now saying.

We know the bible has riddles and parables

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #558 on: June 07, 2013, 11:50:46 AM »
@DT

so the earth is a circle? Not a sphere?

Offline sun_king

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #559 on: June 07, 2013, 12:03:10 PM »
Explain or mention, what about the earth being a circle and the expansion of the universe that has been discovered after the writing of the bible? take a look at these verses Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:16 versus http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_expansion.html

It is evident the bible speaks in parables and riddles to make us think, but if you do research for both sides of the coin, I feel it's apparent to what the bible has said man is now saying.

We know the bible has riddles and parables

Sphere, damn it, SPHERE! A coin is a circle, Earth is a sphere.

Some of the verses you specified:

Job 9:8 - who alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the sea
Psam 104:2 - The Lord wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent
Isaiah 40:22 -He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.
Zechariah 12:16 - Therefore thus saith the Lord; I am returned to Jerusalem with mercies: my house shall be built in it, saith the Lord of hosts, and a line shall be stretched forth upon Jerusalem.

Are you saying that this is god's way of explaining the big bang theory?

Why not say that Job 9:8 is actually a prophecy about Mr Fantastic of the Fantastic Four? Dr. Richards stretches a lot...

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #560 on: June 07, 2013, 12:10:42 PM »
Yea, because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion.

First of all, god stopped doing those big, obvious miracles long before jesus H even showed up.  And even when he was doing that stuff, his "chosen people" forgot him and worshipped gold statues every time he turned around.  So your answer is weak and I do not accept it. 

Secondly, are you saying god is a very sensitive and fragile fellow?  When his feelings get hurt over the slightest snub, he leaves us?  Does that not strike you as childish and petty?  I would not expect a human adult to act that way, let alone the perfect, omnipotent creator of all being. 

And what about when I was a believer?  I invited him into my life every day, yet god was just as invisible and undetectable then.  Why?


Kicked Him out of public school, the government, work place etc.

That's baloney.  I did not kick god out of any of those places.  Or are you saying because other people have kicked out god out he is not hiding from actual believers?  If so, how is that fair?

We want evidence but what would we do with the evidence? how would that change you? Honestly?

If great things happened to xians, with no tie to causality, and nothing special happened to atheists or muslims or hindus, I think that would be pretty convincing.

If god actually gave people the power to heal through belief, then we would not need to spend 10% of our GDP on health care.  Seems like that would be a huge change. 

I do not find your responses particularly convincing or well thought out.  Nor did they really address my points.  Sorry.

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #561 on: June 07, 2013, 12:14:51 PM »
Explain or mention, what about the earth being a circle and the expansion of the universe that has been discovered after the writing of the bible? take a look at these verses Job 9:8, Psalm 104:2, Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 42:5, Isaiah 44:24, Isaiah 45:12, Isaiah 48:13, Isaiah 51:13, Jeremiah 10:12, Jeremiah 51:15, Zechariah 12:16 versus http://map.gsfc.nasa.gov/universe/uni_expansion.html

It is evident the bible speaks in parables and riddles to make us think, but if you do research for both sides of the coin, I feel it's apparent to what the bible has said man is now saying.

We know the bible has riddles and parables
All taken from NIV - if you had a different translation in mind please let me know.

Job 9:8:
He alone stretches out the heavens and treads on the waves of the sea.

Psalm 104:2:
The LORD wraps himself in light as with a garment; he stretches out the heavens like a tent

Isaiah 40:22:
He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in.

Isaiah 42:5:
This is what God the LORD says-- the Creator of the heavens, who stretches them out, who spreads out the earth with all that springs from it, who gives breath to its people, and life to those who walk on it:

Isaiah 44:24:
This is what the LORD says-- your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,

Isaiah 45:12:
It is I who made the earth and created mankind on it. My own hands stretched out the heavens; I marshaled their starry hosts.

Isaiah 48:13:
My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.

Isaiah 51:13:
that you forget the LORD your Maker, who stretches out the heavens and who lays the foundations of the earth, that you live in constant terror every day because of the wrath of the oppressor, who is bent on destruction? For where is the wrath of the oppressor?

Jeremiah 10:12:
But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding.

Zechariah 12:16:
I am unable to find this verse

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you are able to determine any of these passages to allude to the fact that the fabric of space is expanding and continuing to expand...well, color me impressed.  Use of the word 'stretch' in the above passages is far too poetic to boil down to anything but - well, poetry.  It just reads so much like a literary construct.  Replace 'stretching' with any other literary construct to imply god's dominion over reality and I'd bet I'd be able to associate that with some modern theory as well.  If, rather than using 'tent construction' analogies for creation, the biblical authors used 'painting on a canvas', I'd be able to relate that to quantum chromodynamics (colors and what not).  If the biblical authors had used 'building construction' from dirt-to-stones-to-structure, I'd be able to relate that to the tendency of gravity to coalesce matter into definable forms.

So, no, I do not attribute the above to coincidence, as I do not the the above alluding to anything relating to the expansion of space.  If you want to use this as evidence of the predictive powers of the bible, well, be my guest.  It just seems like extraordinarily weak evidence.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline sun_king

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #562 on: June 07, 2013, 12:51:20 PM »
@DT, if you think the bible has attempted to describe the Big Bang Theory through its quite open ended parables, then I would like to point to more clear verses from a Hindu text that predates the bible by centuries. Have a look at the Rig Veda 10:129 http://www.creationmyths.org/rigveda-10-129-indian-creation/rigveda-10-129-indian-creation-2-max-muller-translation.htm

Care to kneel before Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva?

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #563 on: June 07, 2013, 01:20:48 PM »
on Isaiah 40:22  see this post:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,22431.msg527797.html#msg527797

on Job, also recognize it contradicts that point of view.  See this post:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23063.msg516798.html#msg516798

this one points out how wrong the OT is wrt "the sky" aka "the firmament".  overall, this was a very good thread for Screwtape.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,23063.msg516731.html#msg516731

the one about hanging the earth on nothing?  HA!
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #564 on: June 07, 2013, 03:22:56 PM »
God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually.

?  Why is god so coy?  What's the problem?  He used to do big, flashy, Cecil B DeMille type miracles.  Now he acts in ways we don't even notice.  Seriously?


But God is love 1Jn4:8 

No, no, no.  god is Jealousy.

Yea, because we got rid of God in our lives in some form or fashion. Kicked Him out of public school, the government, work place etc. And when something "bad" happens we say where was God? Where did you send Him when you told Him to get out of your life? We want evidence but what would we do with the evidence? how would that change you? Honestly?

I am not sure what you mean by "kicking god out of public school, etc." How could a puny human being kick a god out of anywhere he wanted and needed to be?

And the places in the world where the worst stuff keeps happening to people are where god is present in every possible sphere of life--Syria, Lebanon, Haiti, Iraq, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Oklahoma. Warfare, terrorism, natural disasters, poverty, crime, dictators, wave after wave of suffering.

The least religious, most gay-friendly, sinful, atheistic places like Japan, Belgium, Sweden, Iceland, Washington State and Massachusetts have it pretty nice overall. Higher life expectancy, lower crime rates, good incomes, better education levels, more stable democratic governments.

Wonder why god seems to neglect his most faithful followers while lavishing the goodies on the worst sinners? Where is god, indeed?
« Last Edit: June 07, 2013, 03:29:23 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #565 on: June 07, 2013, 04:34:42 PM »
very easy ngfm, extremely easy.

This is a fallen world under control of the 'deble'. he rewards sin, but his judgement is coming soon, when Jebus comes back and slays him and all his followers, those who knew him not. The Lord will make your wisdom dumb.

Seems legit.

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #566 on: June 08, 2013, 02:37:43 AM »
Our actions are a product of our beliefs MM. If you are raised in a religion that says gays are bad, that's the sort of person you become.  Do you know of any atheists who are rabidly anti-gay?  No?  I didn't think so.  Why do you suppose that is?

That is easy, Gay = unrepentent sinner = Evil ......   Atheist = Unrepentent Sinner = Evil  of course Atheists support Gays it is all part of Satan's plan.

And flying fat pink monkey aliens are controlling our thoughts from the backside of Pluto, right? If you believe that, I have some swampland in Arizona to sell you.

Of course, absolutely NONE of this you can demonstrate.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #567 on: June 08, 2013, 03:31:18 AM »
     And yes, unlikely events happen...ALL-THE-TIME. I just came from the casino tonight and bought a few scratcher lotto tickets beforehand. Hey, guess what? I won! This must prove Yahweh! Right!? NOPE...overwhelming demonstrable evidence wouldn't be a miracle! It would be a commonly known, uncontested, non- contraversial (indeed quite trivial) fact (like the fact of water, gravity, or that there are other people).

     I know that there have been more than 400 posts since you wrote your OP so perhaps you have forgotten the content of the question that you posed to the atheists on this forum (including you): “What would it take for you to come to believe in a God, an "afterlife", and/or an immaterial spiritual realm?  What would it REALLY take for you to change your view (i.e. - reverse it)? And please be specific.”  In post #395 you give your proposed answer: “just because I'm feeling charitable [thanks…I think], here's mine in three words: OVERWHELMING DEMONSTRABLE EVIDENCE.  Now, if you could turn your attention to post #414, you characterize ‘overwhelming demonstrable evidence’ as follows: “overwhelming demonstrable evidence wouldn’t be a miracle!  It would be a commonly known, uncontested, non-controversial (indeed quite trivial) fact. 
     You know, for once I think that I actually agree with you; if there is evidence for the supernatural it will be of the same nature as the evidence that we might use to establish any natural claim.  For instance, if the gospel accounts are correct then none of the disciples actually saw the resurrection.  For the most part they came to believe that Jesus rose from the dead from “commonly known, uncontested, noncontroversial facts”.  There is nothing extraordinary about a human being standing in front of you who just happens to be alive, nor is there anything perplexing about an empty tomb.  The empty tomb would have been common knowledge which is why the soldiers were apparently paid to make up a story.
     At any rate, the point here isn’t to convince you that the gospel accounts are correct thereby constituting ‘demonstrable evidence’, but to examine the conditional statement that you introduced in your OP.  I realize that you don’t think that there is any demonstrable evidence available, but you asked the question ‘what if’ which is a conditional statement proposing that you examine how your perception of reality would have to be different for you to believe in an immaterial spiritual realm.  Here’s what I think: your demand for “overwhelming demonstrable evidence” is nothing more than a fancy way of saying that you wouldn’t believe in a spiritual realm no matter what the evidence was.  If you actually saw a man dead three days come to life or saw a leg ‘magically regrow’ you would find some way to explain it away – maybe you were hallucinating or maybe you could appeal to your ‘argument from ignorance’; after all, why assume the supernatural when we maybe just haven’t discovered a natural explanation yet?  I suggest that you give me a description of what your belief inducing “overwhelming demonstrable evidence” would look like or admit that you can’t.   
     By the way, all your caps lock typing and name calling (e.g. hypocritical, gullible, credulous, closed-minded, etc…) is really quite pathetic.  If your arguments can’t stand on their own without being augmented with a plethora of immature name calling then let me know when you are interested in actually having an intelligent discussion.

Well, for starters, it's quite hilarious that your attempt to stand in judgment of my judgements regarding you (i.e. - that you are credulous) is followed by your own name calling. HA! "You're a naughty boy for calling me a name. So now I'm going to call you a name and scold you for calling me a name!" WOW. Now THAT is childish.

And yet still, without meeting the challenge of the OP (after all of this time avoiding it) you are attempting to poke and prod holes. Is there any reason I should even take you seriously regarding this "Yahweh" you claim to "know", follow, and have a "relationship" with? I find your avoidance of the OP quite immature. What are you afraid of? Perhaps more importantly, how can one have an intelligent conversation with someone who refuses to actively participate in the discussion topic (by at least attempting to meet the challenge presented)? All I've seen is your avoidance of the OP, by basically saying that no matter what you wouldn't stop believing b/c you've assumed that your interpretation of your "Jesus" experience is the correct interpretation. How dishonest!

Now, your accusation that I wouldn't believe no matter the evidence (which I very much anticipated - b/c I, and others here, tend to hear it all the time from you apologists) is wholly false - and quite hilarious considering the fact that I explained quite clearly the types of evidence that would qualify (namely that which is overwhelmingly demonstrable). Is this really that hard for you? I do understand why, but are you really going to sit there claiming ignorance as to what that means? Here are some basic examples to help you (since you are having such a hard time with this): the germ theory of decease, parents, water, food, blood, gravity, and planetary motion. We have overwhelming evidence for the existence of each of these. We DO NOT have such for you alleged "Yahweh" deity, who btw is just one among hundreds of alleged man-made deities throughout history. Did you not know this? So, your accusation is absolutely baseless.

Btw, have you seen (with your own eyes) a man dead for 3 days and then come alive again? Have you seen an amputated limb magically grow back after a 'Jesus' prayer (or have you only read, and believed, these things in old books)?? Can you physically move mountains by "the power of Jesus"? All of this nonsense accusatory talk about "You wouldn't believe even if you saw it" is quite presumptuous. It assumes your bible in advance (namely those passages you accepted apriori regarding those who supposedly saw miracles and still didn't believe). And I ask again, how credulous are you? Why did you buy into these passages uncritically? You've already admitted that your parents raised you this way. Had they raised you Hindu, this would be an entirely different discussion (see Kiran on here) with an entirely different (but similar) set of rationalization attempts. Have you not taken this into consideration? Where is your critical thinking when it comes to the powerful influence and parental sway that you experienced early on?

The simple fact of the matter is that we do not (and you do not) have any evidence that is sufficient to warrant belief in your deity (not even anything ordinary, let alone beyond). You have an assumption you made from childhood and are now defending. It is the same thing the Muslim apologists do. Had you had sufficient evidence, you would have presented it by now (such as by performing an amputee healing on national television and making it common for all here to see). Instead you have presented nothing but spin, and desperate attempts to turn the tables b/c you know you have nothing. But you can easily prove me wrong! In fact, I want you to!

Want me to "be saved" and believe in Yahweh? THEN DEMONSTRATE IT! Is it really that hard for you? Like a fast talking salesman at my door, demonstrate the claims of your product. B/c so far you haven't gotten anywhere near an extraordinary event that we atheists would "reject". You've just CLAIMED that we won't accept it, which is just one more false assumption you've made.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Mrjason

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #568 on: June 08, 2013, 05:00:01 AM »
Want me to "be saved" and believe in Yahweh? THEN DEMONSTRATE IT! Is it really that hard for you? Like a fast talking salesman at my door, demonstrate the claims of your product. B/c so far you haven't gotten anywhere near an extraordinary event that we atheists would "reject". You've just CLAIMED that we won't accept it, which is just one more false assumption you've made.
More to the point he should get Yahweh to demonstrate it. Why does an all powerful being rely on his imperfect creations to prove something thing that for one who is less than divine is indemonstrable?

Where is this second coming?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 05:51:25 AM by Mrjason »

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #569 on: June 08, 2013, 10:14:27 AM »
Where did you send Him when you told Him to get out of your life?
I don't think anyone told god to get out of their life.  They found no reason to believe he was in their lives
Quote
how would that change you? Honestly?
In my opinion people would be the same.  Their character would not change.  They would be the same kind of person who may or may not accept the evidence.  If they are a good person they will remain so.  If they are a douchebag they will remain so.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #570 on: June 08, 2013, 11:57:35 AM »
I don't think anyone told god to get out of their life.  They found no reason to believe he was in their lives

In my opinion people would be the same.  Their character would not change.  They would be the same kind of person who may or may not accept the evidence.  If they are a good person they will remain so.  If they are a douchebag they will remain so.

+1 for acknowledging that religious belief is not a magical ethics makeover. If that were so, if it actually changed behavior significantly, then there would be a measurable material affect that could be observed and verified. In the real world we don't see this happening, so it's reasonable to conclude that religious belief doesn't work that way.

Or indeed in any way that can be objectively verified.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #571 on: June 08, 2013, 12:37:11 PM »
Rubbish.  The heavens and firmament emerged from the Purusha - the Rig Veda makes this quite clear.
Rubbish.  The clouds are clear evidence of Ymir's brains, his blood is the seas and lakes, his flesh is the earth, his bones are the mountains.....evidence of Ymir is everywhere, look it up in the Edda.
Nope.  The Buddha teaches us through the Sila that morality is an intentional effort informed by circumstance.
Again, rubbish.  Atum created humanity from his tears when Shu and Tefnut returned to him.  All clearly laid out in The Book of the Dead.

But what has your god done for you?

What?  Didn't you read what I wrote?  Atum created humanity.  The Purusha gave us the heavens and the firmament.  Ymir gave us water, mountains, the earth....  how greedy are you that you want more?  Those gods have - quite clearly - done a LOT for me.

And for you, though for some reason you choose to deny it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #572 on: June 08, 2013, 12:44:37 PM »
What?  Didn't you read what I wrote?  Atum created humanity.  The Purusha gave us the heavens and the firmament.  Ymir gave us water, mountains, the earth....  how greedy are you that you want more?  Those gods have - quite clearly - done a LOT for me.

And for you, though for some reason you choose to deny it.

Don't pay attention to Anfauglir. Everything was created by Me, the One Above All.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline median

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #573 on: June 08, 2013, 12:59:03 PM »
I don't think anyone told god to get out of their life.  They found no reason to believe he was in their lives

In my opinion people would be the same.  Their character would not change.  They would be the same kind of person who may or may not accept the evidence.  If they are a good person they will remain so.  If they are a douchebag they will remain so.

+1 for acknowledging that religious belief is not a magical ethics makeover. If that were so, if it actually changed behavior significantly, then there would be a measurable material affect that could be observed and verified. In the real world we don't see this happening, so it's reasonable to conclude that religious belief doesn't work that way.

Or indeed in any way that can be objectively verified.

Of course, many apologists are quick to jump to the No True Scotsman fallacy in an attempt to protect this view. "TRUE believers ARE better morally. If they aren't better morally, then they aren't true believers!" How funny it is that many of them reject this same type of reasoning when it derives from their Muslim competitors.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #574 on: June 08, 2013, 03:31:43 PM »
It is evident the bible speaks in parables and riddles to make us think, but if you do research for both sides of the coin, I feel it's apparent to what the bible has said man is now saying.

We know the bible has riddles and parables

You do not understand, do you? The Bible does not speak in riddles, Christians torture an ancient book until it says what they want it to say.


You have got it backwards.

(My apologies for posting the same photo twice, but it is clear that the poster had not seen it.)
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #575 on: June 09, 2013, 01:40:10 AM »
     You have pointed out what you feel is a 'common error in my thinking', but if you reread my post I think you will find that I was not claiming that the universe has the property of 'necessary existence' - all I was doing was attempting to differentiate between the concepts of necessity and contingency.  My intent was to make a distinction of terms and not to state what I thought was fact.
You did avoid taking responsibility for your conditional statements. However, unless you are quoting someone, they are your thoughts and thus, are an error in your thinking.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #576 on: June 12, 2013, 07:56:54 AM »
First of all, god stopped doing those big, obvious miracles long before jesus H even showed up.  And even when he was doing that stuff, his "chosen people" forgot him and worshipped gold statues every time he turned around.  So your answer is weak and I do not accept it. 

Guess I should be more specific. Miracles stopped after the disciples died, and the Romans wanted to put an end to those who followed Chirst. The world has stopped seeking God, for believers He has promised never to leave us nor forsake us, but as believers as you have said we worshiped other things

Secondly, are you saying god is a very sensitive and fragile fellow?  When his feelings get hurt over the slightest snub, he leaves us?  Does that not strike you as childish and petty?  I would not expect a human adult to act that way, let alone the perfect, omnipotent creator of all being. 

Not at all I'm saying God will not usurp your will, He will not force you to do what you don't want to

And what about when I was a believer?  I invited him into my life every day, yet god was just as invisible and undetectable then.  Why?
why would you have to invite He every day? If you truly believed the when you asked, He was there. I'm sure you heard faith without works is dead. If you don't mind me asking when you where a believer what where you looking for every day and what made you stop believing?

Kicked Him out of public school, the government, work place etc.

That's baloney.  I did not kick god out of any of those places.  Or are you saying because other people have kicked out god out he is not hiding from actual believers?  If so, how is that fair?

We want evidence but what would we do with the evidence? how would that change you? Honestly?

If great things happened to xians, with no tie to causality, and nothing special happened to atheists or muslims or hindus, I think that would be pretty convincing.

If god actually gave people the power to heal through belief, then we would not need to spend 10% of our GDP on health care.  Seems like that would be a huge change. 

I do not find your responses particularly convincing or well thought out.  Nor did they really address my points.  Sorry.


<<edited to fix quotes - Anfauglir>>
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 09:09:27 AM by screwtape »

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #577 on: June 12, 2013, 08:03:10 AM »
It is evident the bible speaks in parables and riddles to make us think, but if you do research for both sides of the coin, I feel it's apparent to what the bible has said man is now saying.

We know the bible has riddles and parables

You do not understand, do you? The Bible does not speak in riddles, Christians torture an ancient book until it says what they want it to say.


You have got it backwards.

(My apologies for posting the same photo twice, but it is clear that the poster had not seen it.)

Yup some Christians do twist the Bible, Jesus even said why He teaches in parables Matthew 13:10-15

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #578 on: June 12, 2013, 08:04:58 AM »
Rubbish.  The heavens and firmament emerged from the Purusha - the Rig Veda makes this quite clear.
Rubbish.  The clouds are clear evidence of Ymir's brains, his blood is the seas and lakes, his flesh is the earth, his bones are the mountains.....evidence of Ymir is everywhere, look it up in the Edda.
Nope.  The Buddha teaches us through the Sila that morality is an intentional effort informed by circumstance.
Again, rubbish.  Atum created humanity from his tears when Shu and Tefnut returned to him.  All clearly laid out in The Book of the Dead.

But what has your god done for you?

What?  Didn't you read what I wrote?  Atum created humanity.  The Purusha gave us the heavens and the firmament.  Ymir gave us water, mountains, the earth....  how greedy are you that you want more?  Those gods have - quite clearly - done a LOT for me.

And for you, though for some reason you choose to deny it.

Choice is a good thing, and is it the same reason why you choose to deny what I believe?
[/quote]

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #579 on: June 12, 2013, 08:24:33 AM »
Choice is a good thing, and is it the same reason why you choose to deny what I believe?

Why do you deny that Atum created humanity?   That the Purusha gave us the heavens and the firmament?  That Ymir gave us water, mountains, the earth?

This conversation stemmed from you saying that there was clear evidence of your god because of the heavens, the firmament, morality, creation of humanity, etc, as told by your holy book.  I have responded that you are wrong - that other holy books state just as clearly that all those things were created by other gods.

Given that different holy books say different things, what reason is there to choose one over another?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?