Author Topic: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?  (Read 35248 times)

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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #522 on: June 05, 2013, 04:26:29 PM »
There is no such thing as Atheist believe.

Obviously I am not admitted to the club. He might be welling to meet me but he has obviously forgotten his roadmap.

Very open but he still did not show up.

Insight by not learning, that's a new approach to me.
[/quote]

But you believe there is no God, or should this statement not be a blanket statement for atheist.
God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually. I agree no visible being manifested himself to my eyes. But God is love 1Jn4:8  I never had the capacity to love the way that I do now honestly and that's been the manifestation for me. Insight was from seeking and growing ever since
« Last Edit: June 05, 2013, 04:28:46 PM by DT »

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #523 on: June 05, 2013, 04:41:07 PM »
But in the lax, every-day sense of "complexity" that you're talking about, "complexity" is not quantified.  It is totally subjective.  That people attribute a bogus concept to "complexity" doesn't mean that the term has no real scientific meaning - again, like "theory".

I think we agree, then.

Any more helpful?

No, but thanks for the try.  I think the first paragraph was what I was looking for. What we are calling entropy, and religious goons are trying to call "disorder" is energy than cannot possibly be pulled back out of the background.  Background radiation, as you put it.



edit - fixed quote
What Azdgari appears to be alluding to is the information theory.  Perhaps it's better, rather than using complexity as a measuring device for comparison purposes, to use information.  I'm not an information theory expert of any kind, but there are models and methods for quantitatively evaluating how much information is contained in, say, an atom, or a bloch of energy, or the curvature of space-time, etc.

The question becomes - is there an example of something being created that contains more information than the creator?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #524 on: June 05, 2013, 04:49:30 PM »
I think the issue with atheist believing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that  the theist community wants you to swallow the same pill they have swallowed and believe on the level they believe.
Well...I think a more precise way to say it is:
The issue with me (an atheist) believing is that the theist community wants me to believe something that is unbelievable.
Quote
The truth of the matter is God is welling to meet you exactly where you are , questions, doubts, frustrations, angry and the like.  The question is if you are open to it.
I would very much like to know if the entity god exists in reality.  I believe that qualifies as being open to knowing whether or not he/she/it exists.

By the by...'the truth of the matter'...what makes you think that it is true?  If another person came up to me and claimed that god had no interest in me, whatsoever, and no matter how much I sought him/her/it out I would find no evidence of any kind to suggest his/her/it's existence (because he/she/it purposefully denies me knowledge of his/her/it's existence), how would I determine which of you was correct?
Quote
Again I know I did not answer your question because I can not, God is just that real to me and because I wasn't taught this at a young age, it's a little deeper for me.
The answer seems to be that there isn't anything that you can think of that would change your view.  The view and belief is something ingrained into your feeling of what is real, and there isn't a basis subject to any independent verification outside of what 'feels' right.  Am I off the mark?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline JeffPT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #525 on: June 05, 2013, 05:03:41 PM »
But you believe there is no God, or should this statement not be a blanket statement for atheist.

The statement, for me, would probably be something like... 'The deity that you are presenting me with is not in evidence, and therefore it's vastly more likely that it's not real'. 

God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually.

Tell me how to distinguish this version of God from one that isn't real.  What evidence would be left over from an appearance that we missed? 

If I said that unicorns show up, but we miss them continually, what would you say to me? 

I agree no visible being manifested himself to my eyes.

A God that did not exist would also not manifest himself before your eyes, right? 

But God is love 1Jn4:8 

Those are words in a book, DT.  Why should I believe those words over any other words in any other book?  Just because you say so?  Just because your relatives and friends say so?  Just because over the span of 2000 years, lots of people have said so? All that matters is whether or not the original people who put the words on the paper were accurate.  What proof do you have of that?  Is it not possible that they were just wrong? 

If that book is not trustworthy, then those words are useless.  What evidence can you present that the words are trustworthy? 

I never had the capacity to love the way that I do now honestly and that's been the manifestation for me. Insight was from seeking and growing ever since

That's a manifestation of belief...  Of acceptance that God exists whether or not it's actually real.  It doesn't remotely prove that God exists.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe you always had the capacity to love like you do now, and you just suddenly realized it?  For me, I realized it when my first son was born.   

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Samothec

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #526 on: June 06, 2013, 01:42:56 AM »
I am not sure I understand Occam's razor.
Why is it impossible for the most complicated solution to be the answer?
there is a dead guy in a locked room and a woman covered in blood.
Police say look this woman killed that guy.
She says there was a fake wall that opened up and three guys with purple hair came out and beat him to death with poodles.
Upon investigation they find poodle hair and saliva all over the victim and it  turns out the simple solution was wrong.  the woman apparently was not lying and it was death by poodle.
But in your example, the initial evaluation by the police of the woman killing the man is not the simplest answer that explains ALL the facts. That is the crucial point. If you leave things out and create an answer then that answer will not be the simplest and will be wrong. When all the facts are considered - poodle hair, blood spatter, purple hairs, etc. - the answer of the woman killing the man becomes the more complex one because the facts don't match that answer. The simpler answer is the hidden passage and the three guys with purple hair and poodles.

A big bang happened from nothing, all matter eventually coalesce into planets and stars and life came from random combination of chemicals creating something with thousands of chemical bonds in specific order and a cell wall formed to create life.  VS There was a being who wanted the universe and he created it in his desired manner.  Occam's razor has no simple solution.
Again, look at the whole picture. A burst of only energy which spreads out to cool enough to coalesce into matter eventually becoming the universe we know. VS A complex being instantaneously popping into existence who then wants to make a universe. The burst of energy beginning is very simple compared to the immensely powerful but incomprehensibly mysterious being magically appearing.



     I think that when someone claims that something is metaphysically necessary she is saying that not only has this universe always been, but also this universe must of necessity always have been - if something is not metaphysically necessary then it is contingent; if the physical universe is contingent then it does not have to exist.  For example, you and I are contingent beings; we happen to exist but it is possible that had history taken a different course we might not exist.  If the universe is a necessary entity then it is impossible that it could not have always existed. 
A major flaw in your thinking can be summed up with one word: "necessary". Because the universe exists, you imagine it must necessarily exist. But this condition only exists in your mind. Those of us who are free from this idea understand that the universe can have come into being without a creator and without a reason and not need to be eternal to exist.

Yours is a common error in thinking when one has been taught from early childhood that there is a purpose to life, a plan for us. Hopefully you can at least temporarily suspend those erroneous ideas and work through to the correct answers.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #527 on: June 06, 2013, 03:50:38 AM »
There is evidence of God's existence, humanity has just taken it to disprove Him, the Bible gives some clues into his existence, and wants you to choose.

Psalm 19:1
19 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Rubbish.  The heavens and firmament emerged from the Purusha - the Rig Veda makes this quite clear.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Rubbish.  The clouds are clear evidence of Ymir's brains, his blood is the seas and lakes, his flesh is the earth, his bones are the mountains.....evidence of Ymir is everywhere, look it up in the Edda.

Romans 2:15
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Nope.  The Buddha teaches us through the Sila that morality is an intentional effort informed by circumstance.

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, .....So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Again, rubbish.  Atum created humanity from his tears when Shu and Tefnut returned to him.  All clearly laid out in The Book of the Dead.

I don't think you read enough.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline epidemic

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #528 on: June 06, 2013, 08:18:25 AM »
For me it is a paradox  a universe with god or without god are both not possible, therefore none of us really exist.
The universe obviously exists and until now god never showed up. So I do not see the paradox. Last time I checked I was definitely real. So I do exist. There is evidence for that. There is no evidence that god exists.

Well you have not seen god and I don't think I believe the accounts of gods interaction with people but there are claims this guy in the sky has on occasion made himself known with personal visits and spectacular miracles.  He is just on vacation for the past 2000 years.

Online Azdgari

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #529 on: June 06, 2013, 08:48:30 AM »
No, but thanks for the try.  I think the first paragraph was what I was looking for. What we are calling entropy, and religious goons are trying to call "disorder" is energy than cannot possibly be pulled back out of the background.  Background radiation, as you put it.

Yep.  Though, "disorder" isn't just a term applied by "religious goons".  It's also a term applied by real physicists.
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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #530 on: June 06, 2013, 09:18:11 AM »
But you believe there is no God, or should this statement not be a blanket statement for atheist.

The statement, for me, would probably be something like... 'The deity that you are presenting me with is not in evidence, and therefore it's vastly more likely that it's not real'. 

but is not evidence a form of clues or substance that points an individual to its source? Planets and the solar system amaze me, the intricacies of the human body and the number of systems that make up the body amaze me (1Corinthians 15:40), and then to meditate on verses that say we are made in His likeness and Image. Science is good but not this good

God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually.

Tell me how to distinguish this version of God from one that isn't real.  What evidence would be left over from an appearance that we missed? 

If I said that unicorns show up, but we miss them continually, what would you say to me? 

Funny. where did the world get the idea of unicorns in the first place? I wondered about this and sure enough the Bible makes mention of unicorns Job39:9-(KJV). And I get it many would say that's evidence that the Bible is not real, but can I submit that we as man (society) we have a knack, to kill, its easy to hate, and we are destructive. Could we not have killed something that existed and then made it seem like a fantasy all along to discredit it existence to begin with? To distinguish I think you simply seek with an expectation to find. God says that man is without excuse and left evidence throughout the world, but we dismiss a lot and count them as fairy tales.

I agree no visible being manifested himself to my eyes.

A God that did not exist would also not manifest himself before your eyes, right?
true, and if he doesn't exist there would be no reason for me to seek Him or try to disprove Him, or want evidence from Him? When you consider the planets, animals, your son you can honestly say it all was by chance?

But God is love 1Jn4:8 

Those are words in a book, DT.  Why should I believe those words over any other words in any other book?  Just because you say so?  Just because your relatives and friends say so?  Just because over the span of 2000 years, lots of people have said so? All that matters is whether or not the original people who put the words on the paper were accurate.  What proof do you have of that?  Is it not possible that they were just wrong? 

A book that even parallels most history books (Look into the Babylonia area) a book that other religions tell of the same stories and a world mocks by making fantasies about. Belief can only come from careful examination, and society believes words in other books we were force to read factual and some not so factual books throughout school. Proof of accuracy?  The Bible has made mention of things our history books told us was discovered later: such as the world being round Isaiah 40:22, blood needed for life Leviticus 17:11, the ocean has springs Job 38:16, the water cycle Ecclesiastes 1:7, matter and particles Romans 1:20 - all of which have been discover by man much later

If that book is not trustworthy, then those words are useless.  What evidence can you present that the words are trustworthy? 
Things the Bible said were true that man discovered over time, see previous paragraph
I never had the capacity to love the way that I do now honestly and that's been the manifestation for me. Insight was from seeking and growing ever since

That's a manifestation of belief...  Of acceptance that God exists whether or not it's actually real.  It doesn't remotely prove that God exists.  Did you ever stop to think that maybe you always had the capacity to love like you do now, and you just suddenly realized it?  For me, I realized it when my first son was born.   
Yea, everyone will realize differently, for one thief it took him being nailed on a cross next to Jesus, for a woman being caught in adultery it took not being stoned, for a tax collector it took eating with Jesus,  for you your son, for me my wife - all examples of love

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #531 on: June 06, 2013, 09:20:11 AM »
There is evidence of God's existence, humanity has just taken it to disprove Him, the Bible gives some clues into his existence, and wants you to choose.

Psalm 19:1
19 The heavens declare the glory of God;
And the firmament shows His handiwork.

Rubbish.  The heavens and firmament emerged from the Purusha - the Rig Veda makes this quite clear.

Romans 1:20
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.

Rubbish.  The clouds are clear evidence of Ymir's brains, his blood is the seas and lakes, his flesh is the earth, his bones are the mountains.....evidence of Ymir is everywhere, look it up in the Edda.

Romans 2:15
15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them)

Nope.  The Buddha teaches us through the Sila that morality is an intentional effort informed by circumstance.

Genesis 1:26-27
Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, .....So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

Again, rubbish.  Atum created humanity from his tears when Shu and Tefnut returned to him.  All clearly laid out in The Book of the Dead.

I don't think you read enough.

But what has your god done for you?

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #532 on: June 06, 2013, 09:41:50 AM »

But what has your god done for you?

I would hazard a guess that these and any other gods throughout history have done exactly as much (or little) for their followers as your god has done for you.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #533 on: June 06, 2013, 09:48:19 AM »
I think the issue with atheist believing, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that  the theist community wants you to swallow the same pill they have swallowed and believe on the level they believe.
Well...I think a more precise way to say it is:
The issue with me (an atheist) believing is that the theist community wants me to believe something that is unbelievable.
Quote
The truth of the matter is God is welling to meet you exactly where you are , questions, doubts, frustrations, angry and the like.  The question is if you are open to it.
I would very much like to know if the entity god exists in reality.  I believe that qualifies as being open to knowing whether or not he/she/it exists.

By the by...'the truth of the matter'...what makes you think that it is true?  If another person came up to me and claimed that god had no interest in me, whatsoever, and no matter how much I sought him/her/it out I would find no evidence of any kind to suggest his/her/it's existence (because he/she/it purposefully denies me knowledge of his/her/it's existence), how would I determine which of you was correct? - if another person told you God has no interest in you would not happen, but if it did it's funny that God would see fit to tell you by two different people He is thinking of you some kind of way, the old testament has stories about God turning his back on people for different reasons, but if you sought him now you wouldn't be under the old testament law so you would have no worries...hypothetically speaking that is.
Quote
Again I know I did not answer your question because I can not, God is just that real to me and because I wasn't taught this at a young age, it's a little deeper for me.
The answer seems to be that there isn't anything that you can think of that would change your view.  The view and belief is something ingrained into your feeling of what is real, and there isn't a basis subject to any independent verification outside of what 'feels' right.  Am I off the mark?

What if things that men have discovered throughout the years the Bible made clear from the beginning, would that be enough evidence? or if the bible talks about the very history we study in school, would that be enough evidence? Or what if the Bible warned about a time when the world will try to establish one government for the entire world, and we see quotes on our currency that indicate that, that is where we are headed, would that be enough evidence? or if the Bible was to elude to the increased violence and murder that we would see, would that be enough evidence? or should we just 'chalk this up' as mere coincidence- that is a choice everyone will have to make for themselves. The issue is not evidence, for you, lets 'pretend' that you found all the evidence you need and you now believe in  God. What in your life would really change? Would you be more compelled to give to those less fortunate? maybe go to a third world country to help those in need? The evidence will point  to man not being able to create nor scientifically prove our existence by science allow, evidence will point you to for something to exist it had to be created. The issue is what do we do with this evidence and how does it change us if at all?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #534 on: June 06, 2013, 09:54:18 AM »
What if things that men have discovered throughout the years the Bible made clear from the beginning, would that be enough evidence? or if the bible talks about the very history we study in school, would that be enough evidence? Or what if the Bible warned about a time when the world will try to establish one government for the entire world, and we see quotes on our currency that indicate that, that is where we are headed, would that be enough evidence? or if the Bible was to elude to the increased violence and murder that we would see, would that be enough evidence?

If any of those things were actually the case, there might be something to discuss and investigate.  But since they're all just hypothetical, it's kind of moot.  What if I had the power of invisibility?  Well, I can think of all kinds of things I could do, but invisibility is a power I don't have, so talking about it wouldn't really be anything more than whiling away the time by engaging in wishful thinking.
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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #535 on: June 06, 2013, 09:56:41 AM »

But what has your god done for you?

I would hazard a guess that these and any other gods throughout history have done exactly as much (or little) for their followers as your god has done for you.

Wait we are talking about evidence or guessing is allowed  ;). My evidence may not be your evidence, why? God is just that personal. I very well could have been a statistic in societies eyes, low income family, no father around, surrounded by gangs, blah, blah, blah but my stoniness of a heart is capable of loving others, which was revealed through God. But does that mean you didn't love your mom? you didn't love friends, you didn't love anything...pretty much, I was a loner and was ok with it. My God has given His son for my life and well I guess that is what I choose to believe!

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #536 on: June 06, 2013, 10:14:41 AM »
What if things that men have discovered throughout the years the Bible made clear from the beginning, would that be enough evidence? or if the bible talks about the very history we study in school, would that be enough evidence? Or what if the Bible warned about a time when the world will try to establish one government for the entire world, and we see quotes on our currency that indicate that, that is where we are headed, would that be enough evidence? or if the Bible was to elude to the increased violence and murder that we would see, would that be enough evidence?

If any of those things were actually the case, there might be something to discuss and investigate.  But since they're all just hypothetical, it's kind of moot.  What if I had the power of invisibility?  Well, I can think of all kinds of things I could do, but invisibility is a power I don't have, so talking about it wouldn't really be anything more than whiling away the time by engaging in wishful thinking.

YES lets discuss
http://carm.org/scientific-accuracies-in-the-bible
http://www.icr.org/article/7526/
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_Confirms_the_Bible

I haven't look through all of these but will have to. Could this not be evidence of what man has discovered over the years and points to God and His existence?

gotta run 8)

Offline jynnan tonnix

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #537 on: June 06, 2013, 10:15:04 AM »

But what has your god done for you?

I would hazard a guess that these and any other gods throughout history have done exactly as much (or little) for their followers as your god has done for you.

Wait we are talking about evidence or guessing is allowed  ;). My evidence may not be your evidence, why? God is just that personal. I very well could have been a statistic in societies eyes, low income family, no father around, surrounded by gangs, blah, blah, blah but my stoniness of a heart is capable of loving others, which was revealed through God. But does that mean you didn't love your mom? you didn't love friends, you didn't love anything...pretty much, I was a loner and was ok with it. My God has given His son for my life and well I guess that is what I choose to believe!

Exactly. That's the problem with "evidence"...You may believe that all these things worked out for you despite low odds due to the intervention of a deity.

Things work out despite the odds for many other people. Some of your faith, some of other faiths, some who are atheist and believe in the power of hard work and the power of a positive attitude.

Likewise, some people fall apart completely despite being devout believers.

But other than the "feeling" each person has as to an outside cause for their lot in life, there is absolutely no evidence that any particular belief system consistently produces more happiness and better results.

Offline Astreja

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #538 on: June 06, 2013, 10:15:24 AM »
But what has your god done for you?

Well, Dad gave Me My name, taught Me how to read Futhark runes, and nommed Me for Queen of Earth (1999-2002).  In My tenure I abolished Original Sin, cancelled Judgment Day and replaced it with a potluck supper[1], and crafted a kickass Truth Spell (thereby making Me the de facto godmother of Anonymous, Wikileaks and untold numbers of investigative journalists).  The spell, and some advice from a Krynnish archmage, also got Me out of an abusive marriage.

You're welcome.   ;D
 1. Please bring 10 dozen whole wheat buns and a tub of margarine.
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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #539 on: June 06, 2013, 10:32:56 AM »
YES lets discuss
http://carm.org/scientific-accuracies-in-the-bible
http://www.icr.org/article/7526/
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_Confirms_the_Bible

That's hysterical.  The third link in your list goes to a page that refutes everything listed in the first two.  I guess you weren't lying when you said you hadn't read any of it...
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #540 on: June 06, 2013, 10:41:23 AM »
Science works. Religion doesn't. Case closed.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #541 on: June 06, 2013, 04:31:19 PM »
God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually. I agree no visible being manifested himself to my eyes. But God is love 1Jn4:8
 

The above statements represent no more than unsubstantiated wishful thinking. You said yourself that there has been no visible (or any other sensory) manifestation of God to you, yet you have decided to accept that the type of God you believe in exists because? I would suggest that one of the reasons is because as most people, you too are comfortable in your 'personal foundation' warts and all and not really all that interested in question and calling on the carpet the "givens" you have always accepted.
There was an old thread here that talked about atheism being the default position, but I am persuaded that faith in gods is the position society is forced into from a very young age making it the synthetically default position that is not acquired via logical means. This faith is so deeply ingrained that its lack of a firm foundation is rarely explored or questioned and those that do dare to question it are often prematurely judged as being wrong before any evidence has been brought to the table to back that assertion.
Long story short, start questioning your feelings, beliefs, and perceptions of reality and what you may often find is that what you know in your heart to be so really isn't.

I never had the capacity to love the way that I do now honestly and that's been the manifestation for me. Insight was from seeking and growing ever since

Why do you say your CAPACITY increased? Just because you previously didn't do something doesn't mean that you did not possess the capacity to do that something. You more than likely always had the capacity, you just may have lacked the impetus and motivation to realize your ability to act in that capacity.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #542 on: June 06, 2013, 04:40:13 PM »
But what has your god done for you?
You seem to be saying that your imaginary god has done things for you. What are these things?

Offline screwtape

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #543 on: June 06, 2013, 09:44:08 PM »
God shows up, but the way he shows up we miss it continually.

?  Why is god so coy?  What's the problem?  He used to do big, flashy, Cecil B DeMille type miracles.  Now he acts in ways we don't even notice.  Seriously?


But God is love 1Jn4:8 

No, no, no.  god is Jealousy.

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #544 on: June 06, 2013, 09:55:28 PM »
but is not evidence a form of clues or substance that points an individual to its source?
It depends on your starting premise.  If you think 'the Christian God is real' then the evidence and clues you find will lead to that.  If you think 'Allah is real' then the evidence points to that.  If, however, you start with any version of god (including no god at all) as a possibility as opposed to a preconceived fact and you follow a scientific path to determine for yourself what is true or not true, and you let your beliefs be guided by what we can reasonably prove, then the entire notion of deities becomes rather comical. 

Planets and the solar system amaze me
I'm not sure why that points to the idea that a supernatural sky man poofed it into existence one day.  What does your amazement have to do with how the planets and the solar system got there? 

the intricacies of the human body and the number of systems that make up the body amaze me
Again, what does your amazement have to do with your belief about who put it there? 

and then to meditate on verses that say we are made in His likeness and Image.
Words in a book.  Show me a picture of God and I will believe you.  Otherwise, don't try to pass this off as true.  It's no more true than if I were to say that we are made in Zeus' image.  Do you believe we are made in Zeus' image?  If not, how would you prove that we are not?  Better yet, what would you expect me to provide you with in order to prove that we are?   Then turn that on your own beliefs. 


Funny. where did the world get the idea of unicorns in the first place? I wondered about this and sure enough the Bible makes mention of unicorns Job39:9-(KJV).

The bible was not the first source of the unicorn.  A simple wiki search shows the following...

Unicorns are not found in Greek mythology, but rather in accounts of natural history, for Greek writers of natural history were convinced of the reality of the unicorn, which they located in India, a distant and fabulous realm for them.The earliest description is from Ctesias who described them as wild asses, fleet of foot, having a horn a cubit and a half in length and colored white, red and black.

Ctesias of Cnidus (/?ti???s/; Ancient Greek: ???????) was a Greek physician and historian from Cnidus in Caria. Ctesias, who lived in the 5th century BC, was physician to Artaxerxes Mnemon, whom he accompanied in 401 BC on his expedition against his brother Cyrus the Younger.

And I get it many would say that's evidence that the Bible is not real, but can I submit that we as man (society) we have a knack, to kill, its easy to hate, and we are destructive.

It is a piece of evidence that leads to the notion that when it comes to the truth, the bible is lacking in at least one place.  And if that is the case, it brings the entire book into suspect territory.  Does it not?  Do you not agree with that?  If they can be absolutely wrong about one thing, they can be wrong about a good many things... including a man walking on water, living inside a fish for days, and resurrecting from the dead. 

Where do you find fault with that logical pathway?

Not all of us hate, DT.  Not all of us find it easy to kill.  I find your observation to be in sharp contrast to just about every single person I know.  Human tendency is to be good to each other.  Things like religion, politics, nationalism and the like are what get in the way of that. 

Could we not have killed something that existed and then made it seem like a fantasy all along to discredit it existence to begin with? To distinguish I think you simply seek with an expectation to find. God says that man is without excuse and left evidence throughout the world, but we dismiss a lot and count them as fairy tales.
You mean the same way you dismiss the fairy tales that you don't currently believe in? 

The world exists; but just because it exists, you can't claim that as evidence that God put it there.  You can't do that.  The bible could simply be wrong here. It's not reasonable to simply assert something like that with nothing more backing it than 'the bible says so'.  Why can't someone come up and say that man is without excuse and that Zeus left evidence throughout the world?  When you can distinguish between the two using more than your preconceived beliefs, let me know.   

true, and if he doesn't exist there would be no reason for me to seek Him or try to disprove Him, or want evidence from Him? When you consider the planets, animals, your son you can honestly say it all was by chance?
Chance no.  Natural causes without the intervention of a deity... yes.  Absolutely yes. 

Give me a single way to distinguish your God from one that is fake in any provable sense.  Please. I beg you to do that.  If you can't, then please understand that it really could all be in your head, and the entire history of your religion could be fake (just like every other religion that has ever existed). 

A book that even parallels most history books (Look into the Babylonia area) a book that other religions tell of the same stories and a world mocks by making fantasies about.

A book who's authors we don't know.  For which we have no original copies.  For which we don't even have copies of copies of copies of the originals.  A book which contains obvious falsehoods, contradictions, and absurdities.  A book which makes claims which are not only unproven, but that violate all the natural laws. 

Tell me what history books back up the stories in the bible, DT.  Not the people and the places, but the important things like the resurrection, the miracles, etc.  I'd like to see those. 

Belief can only come from careful examination
That's absolutely wrong.  Totally wrong.  Couldn't be more wrong.  Belief CAN come from careful examination, but ONLY from careful examination?  That's just epically wrong. 

and society believes words in other books we were force to read factual and some not so factual books throughout school.
I'm not sure which direction you're going here.  Are you thinking of history books, story books or science books?  I'm going to assume you mean story / history books.  There are good and bad reasons to believe that things we read in those types of books are true.  Can you make a short list of the things that might cause you to accept something you've read as true versus false?  What criteria would you need to see in order to accept that something is true?  Take a few minutes and think about it.  If you walked into a library and saw 5 books on the table, and the librarian told you one of them is true and the others are not, what criteria would you use to figure out which was which? 

Proof of accuracy?  The Bible has made mention of things our history books told us was discovered later: such as the world being round Isaiah 40:22, blood needed for life Leviticus 17:11, the ocean has springs Job 38:16, the water cycle Ecclesiastes 1:7, matter and particles Romans 1:20 - all of which have been discover by man much later
Isaiah 40:22  The earth isn't a circle.  It's a sphere.  And he can't sit 'above' the circle of the earth, because in outer space, the concept of 'up' doesn't really exist.  Unless you think the people standing at the south pole should fall off the planet. 

Leviticus 17:11 You mean to tell me that people didn't think blood was important before that?  I'd like to see proof of that.  It seems self-evident that blood is pretty important. 

Ecclesiastes 1:7 It is a simple observation to make that rivers flow into the sea.  But I don't see any mention of evaporation or condensation. 

Romans 1:20 Where the hell do you see 'matter and particles' in this verse?  Have you read it?

Job 38:16  Explain what you mean when you say that the ocean has springs... I don't want to jump to the conclusion that you're saying the hydrothermal vents at the bottom of the ocean are 'springs' before you admit that what's you're talking about. 

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If that book is not trustworthy, then those words are useless.  What evidence can you present that the words are trustworthy? 
Things the Bible said were true that man discovered over time, see previous paragraph
You're just wrong, DT.  The phrases you posted are serious reaches.  They aren't even close to what someone with omniscience would be capable of communicating to us.  An omniscient being could describe evaporation, condensation and the water cycle in great detail.  The little blurbs you've cited are NOT ENOUGH.  They just aren't. 

Yea, everyone will realize differently, for one thief it took him being nailed on a cross next to Jesus, for a woman being caught in adultery it took not being stoned, for a tax collector it took eating with Jesus,  for you your son, for me my wife - all examples of love
John 8:2-11 was not part of the original bible, DT.  Jesus never did that.  It is not found in any of the oldest manuscripts we have.  The entire event was added much later. 

Love doesn't prove God.  Love is an evolved emotion that ensures we provide care and assistance to those that we are close to so that they may pass our genes further along the line.  It's an emotion. Just like all the other emotions.  Renaming it God isn't necessary. 
Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Offline Greenandwhite

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #545 on: June 07, 2013, 12:02:06 AM »
     I think that when someone claims that something is metaphysically necessary she is saying that not only has this universe always been, but also this universe must of necessity always have been - if something is not metaphysically necessary then it is contingent; if the physical universe is contingent then it does not have to exist.  For example, you and I are contingent beings; we happen to exist but it is possible that had history taken a different course we might not exist.  If the universe is a necessary entity then it is impossible that it could not have always existed. 
     A major flaw in your thinking can be summed up with one word: "necessary". Because the universe exists, you imagine it must necessarily exist. But this condition only exists in your mind. Those of us who are free from this idea understand that the universe can have come into being without a creator and without a reason and not need to be eternal to exist.

Yours is a common error in thinking when one has been taught from early childhood that there is a purpose to life, a plan for us. Hopefully you can at least temporarily suspend those erroneous ideas and work through to the correct answers.

     You have pointed out what you feel is a 'common error in my thinking', but if you reread my post I think you will find that I was not claiming that the universe has the property of 'necessary existence' - all I was doing was attempting to differentiate between the concepts of necessity and contingency.  My intent was to make a distinction of terms and not to state what I thought was fact. 

Offline magicmiles

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #546 on: June 07, 2013, 01:19:13 AM »
Love doesn't prove God.  Love is an evolved emotion that ensures we provide care and assistance to those that we are close to so that they may pass our genes further along the line.  It's an emotion. Just like all the other emotions.  Renaming it God isn't necessary.

Hi Jeff, I'm a bit behind in some other responses, but I hope you don't mind if I ask this while it's fresh in my mind.

You say that love is an evolved emotion, but can you answer a few things:

* Why did love start to evolve at all? How did it actually begin, and what did it look like in the beginning?

* How did it evolve? By what process?

* Did hate evolve? Why?
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Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #547 on: June 07, 2013, 10:51:51 AM »
YES lets discuss
http://carm.org/scientific-accuracies-in-the-bible
http://www.icr.org/article/7526/
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Science_Confirms_the_Bible

That's hysterical.  The third link in your list goes to a page that refutes everything listed in the first two.  I guess you weren't lying when you said you hadn't read any of it...

Both sides of the coin, I thought you'd like that.

Offline DT

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #548 on: June 07, 2013, 10:59:41 AM »

But what has your god done for you?

I would hazard a guess that these and any other gods throughout history have done exactly as much (or little) for their followers as your god has done for you.

Wait we are talking about evidence or guessing is allowed  ;). My evidence may not be your evidence, why? God is just that personal. I very well could have been a statistic in societies eyes, low income family, no father around, surrounded by gangs, blah, blah, blah but my stoniness of a heart is capable of loving others, which was revealed through God. But does that mean you didn't love your mom? you didn't love friends, you didn't love anything...pretty much, I was a loner and was ok with it. My God has given His son for my life and well I guess that is what I choose to believe!

Exactly. That's the problem with "evidence"...You may believe that all these things worked out for you despite low odds due to the intervention of a deity.

Things work out despite the odds for many other people. Some of your faith, some of other faiths, some who are atheist and believe in the power of hard work and the power of a positive attitude.

Likewise, some people fall apart completely despite being devout believers.

But other than the "feeling" each person has as to an outside cause for their lot in life, there is absolutely no evidence that any particular belief system consistently produces more happiness and better results.

I'm not saying all believer have it all together and yes some believers fall apart just like non believers, anyone can get knocked down 6 times just as long as you get up 7. I would like to think I am a hard worker and have positive attitude, I think the vast majority of us do.

Are you speculating about happiness, drawing your conclusions from outside observations or speaking from experience?

Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #549 on: June 07, 2013, 11:00:16 AM »
What if things that men have discovered throughout the years the Bible made clear from the beginning, would that be enough evidence?
That'd be some evidence to suggest that the writers of the bible had access to knowledge that we would not expect them to have.  And yes, an omnipotent sentience bestowing that knowledge to the writers would be an explanation for that.  An advanced alien race bestowing that knowledge would also be an explanation for that.
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or if the bible talks about the very history we study in school, would that be enough evidence?
That'd be some evidence to suggest that the writers of the bible had access to foreknowledge and extraordinary predictive power.  And yes, an omnipotent sentience bestowing that foreknowledge to the writers would be an explanation for that.  Psychic powers would also be an explanation for that.
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Or what if the Bible warned about a time when the world will try to establish one government for the entire world, and we see quotes on our currency that indicate that, that is where we are headed, would that be enough evidence?
More predictive foreknowledge.

'quotes on our currency to indicate that' - could you expound on this further?  I don't understand.
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or if the Bible was to elude to the increased violence and murder that we would see, would that be enough evidence? or should we just 'chalk this up' as mere coincidence- that is a choice everyone will have to make for themselves.
Firstly, do we see increased violence and murder in society at large?  I mean, I know it seems that way, but that is a claim that can be verified or refuted with objective quantifiable data.

The choice of what cause to attribute to what effect is irrelevant to the actual cause of the effect.
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The issue is not evidence, for you, lets 'pretend' that you found all the evidence you need and you now believe in  God. What in your life would really change? Would you be more compelled to give to those less fortunate? maybe go to a third world country to help those in need?
That certainly depends on the nature of this 'god' entity we're talking about.  I've not tested the limits of my personal fortitude and conviction; if this 'god' entity were the type to punish and torture me for giving to the less fortunate, I suspect that I'd be weak enough to submit to such tyranny and save my own behind.
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The evidence will point  to man not being able to create nor scientifically prove our existence by science allow, evidence will point you to for something to exist it had to be created. The issue is what do we do with this evidence and how does it change us if at all?
I assume the above is referring to hypotheticals.  If the evidence does lead to the conclusions that existence necessarily requires a creator of some kind, then I can safely say that the notion of an omnipotent, omnipresent, all-loving entity known as 'god' that has always existed is clearly false.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: What Would It Take For You To Change Your View?
« Reply #550 on: June 07, 2013, 11:01:55 AM »
Both sides of the coin, I thought you'd like that.
One side of that coin is substantially more compelling and believable than the other side.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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