I think that in a debate every question is a loaded question;
Just wondering if you would agree that the following accurately describes your view of God, hell, and the scriptures: It doesn't and it is a loaded question. This is why:
1. if hell exists (a place of unspeakable, eternal torture) and:
2. if a god exists who possesses the attributes of power, love, and knowledge to a maximal degree and:
3. if humans are truly free in their actions (which would make a warning of an eternal hell relevant) Why?, then:
4. God would desire to present the clearest possible warning to us of such a place Again why?
5.We do not have a clear warning, therefore: Doesn't apply, reasoning not forthcoming.
6. the Being described in (2) does not exist Also doesn't apply, a creature so full of love to a maximal degree would not have the propensity to do anything bad. thus would not create such a place, only a creature that isn't full of love to a maximal degree, a malevolent creature would create such a place.
And loaded because you are trying to suggest that, all humans are malevolent too. If we were, the species would have died out a long time ago.
Well this one certainly has and thanks for the concession.
after all, if one asks a question but does not have in mind a point to be made, then what's the point of asking the question in the first place?
Probably to get at the truth.
I wrote this post in response to post #371 in which I felt that jtk73 was taking several assumptions of Christianity and arguing that accepting all of them leads to an inconsistency. I was just trying to make sure that I was accurately recognizing the implicit and explicit assumptions that jtk73 was making. If you don't feel that this was the best way of going about things then I can accept your opinion; how about if I phrase things differently and attempt to cut to the chase right away.
It seems to me that jtk73 was assuming a place of 'torture' and, for the sake of argument, an all-powerful, 'fair' being who is described in an 'incoherent, rambling, inconsistent collection of books'. From my reading on this forum, it seems to be a common sentiment that the Bible is incoherent, rambling, and inconsistent; it has also been stated on numerous occasions that hell is a place of unspeakable, eternal torture for those who do not accept the message found in God's incoherent books about himself. What I am wondering is how the members of this forum can categorically state that the Bible is practically bursting at its seams with contradictions and impossible to understand passages, and yet at the same time be so certain that the description of hell found within the same book is so crystal clear. I have never seen anyone say "maybe God is loving and we have just misunderstood the significance of the descriptions of hell offered in the Bible. That kind of an approach would seem to be much more sensible considering the paltry handful of references to hell when compared to the number of passages that talk about God's nature and person.
Well all I can state is a paraphrase of - Richard Dawkins, The God Delusion, The god of the bible is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.
Because of the way this God character is portraited in the bible, it infers to all that hell will be the most nastiest place imaginable. Also most of the scriptures in regard to hell also infer the same. I.E.
Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”
To name just a few.
Oh and when you are discussing a book of fiction, (which some like you think is true) it matters not to those who consider it fiction to state on the one hand it is full of contradictions and on the other state what hell is like, it is all imaginary to them anyway. They are just trying to understand your mentality, in that regard.