Author Topic: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?  (Read 148 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« on: September 23, 2014, 05:24:47 PM »
The most basic moral standard is the Golden Rule: to treat others as well as you would like to be treated. The Golden Rule asks us to act as if everyone's pain and suffering is potentially the same as our own. If you don't want to be robbed, raped or killed, don't rob, rape or kill others. If you don't want your children to be sold into slavery, don't enslave other people's children and so forth.

So where does god fit into this? Does he treat others as he would like to be treated? Is his behavior towards others something that we should emulate? Does god (any god) follow the Golden Rule, as described by his followers? Should he? If not, why not?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #1 on: September 23, 2014, 07:01:52 PM »
The most basic moral standard is the Golden Rule: to treat others as well as you would like to be treated. The Golden Rule asks us to act as if everyone's pain and suffering is potentially the same as our own. If you don't want to be robbed, raped or killed, don't rob, rape or kill others. If you don't want your children to be sold into slavery, don't enslave other people's children and so forth.
This asks us to imagine the converse of the Code of Hammurabi – an eye for an eye.

The unfortunate thing is that If you don't want to be robbed, raped or killed, don't rob, rape or kill others. If you don't want your children to be sold into slavery, don't enslave other people's children and so forth. is a counsel of perfection. The religious and secular history of mankind has been and will always be one of some violence at all levels all the time. We are social and territorial; we require the social side to be “as we see it” and the territorial side to be ‘just a little more than enough to satisfy our ability to progress at the expense of all other considerations.’

It is also not the whole of the law. The law, by consent, custom, fear or encouragement, requires us to treat various people in different ways depending upon our relationship with them. Those in power are not to be annoyed but respected.

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So where does god fit into this? Does he treat others as he would like to be treated?
Well, that would be impossible. As he is at the top of the food chain, everything below him is lesser and owes Him: he cannot treat those below Him in the way they treat Him, it would be illogical. Does the child treat his father as the grandfather treated that father? There is an understood hierarchy.
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Is his behavior towards others something that we should emulate?
No. He knows why He is doing it: we do not and are more than likely to be doing an inappropriate act if we do the same thing to someone in what we think is similar circumstances.
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Does god (any god) follow the Golden Rule, as described by his followers?
Well, first, any description of any god by his followers is likely to fall short of reality. Next, I know of gods who acted as absolute rulers but absolute rulers cannot act as gods as they cannot do magic.

There seems to be nothing in holy books to say that we should second-guess gods[1], merely that we should obey them, even if we don’t understand or think it is unfair.
 1. This is a good time to point out the stupidity of “What Would Jesus Do?” as the answer probably would be, “Perform a miracle.”
« Last Edit: September 23, 2014, 07:04:42 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline relativetruth

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2014, 07:38:58 PM »
Does the golden rule extend to our relationships with animals?

Should we not eat beef because if you were a cow you might prefer not to be eaten?

Can a creator god really empathize with its creations?

Of course an omni-max god could if only such a god was not logically impossible.
God(s) exist and are imaginary

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2014, 07:55:41 PM »
god "could" do anything, but why does perfection want or need to?

your role in all this is to just worship it.




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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2014, 08:21:19 PM »
I'm with Graybeard on this one. This god of theirs can't be treated. The guy can treat us any which way he wants, but we can't treat him back in any sense of the word. Being obedient isn't treating him to anything. Praying is, at best, an annoyance. Thanking him? He knew you were going to do that 6,000 years ago. Big deal.

There is no moral feedback loop between this god guy and humans. And while yes, his invisibility and other methods of being not here do cramp our style, even if he showed one or two of us his butt or whatever, there wouldn't be much we could do in return.

He does in to us any way he wants. We do in to each other as we see fit. But never the twain shall meet.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Jag

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2014, 10:04:05 PM »
At first this thread gave me an image of a neutral, detached, observing scientist in a lab, watching us respond to various stimuli in our environs. Every now and then, he twirls the atmosphere a little, setting off storms or ocean upheaval-type events, but otherwise leaving us to grope our way through the maze as best we can. I have a peculiar sense of humor and that image has long been a favorite visual metaphor.

But in rather short order, this time hat image morphed into something reminiscent of Sid from the Toy Story movies, pulling the wings off butterflies and stapling paper airplanes in their place, cackling like a madman.

...like I said, I have a peculiar sense of humor. I have to go finish my homework now.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline dloubet

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2014, 01:14:39 AM »
Does the created owe the creator anything? I don't think so.

If a god created us, it did so for its own purposes, not ours. We owe it nothing. If it tries to impose its own purposes upon us, rejection of those purposes is a justifiable, and perhaps admirable, response. Even if it appears to subsequently help us, it could be manipulating us for purposes of its own. This would seem to be necessary and justifiable attitude of inferior beings regarding superior ones.

Therefore I would expect the golden rule to be null and void concerning the relationship between gods and humans.
Denis Loubet

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2014, 03:01:39 PM »
Interesting observations. None of which make god look like a nice character.  He makes the rules, and they can be arbitrary or silly or cruel or impossible to understand. But god never has to follow them, so he does not care if the rules don't make any sense. 

Bosses who makes themselves exempt from the employee handbook, who violate all the rules, who blame the people below them for anything that goes wrong, while taking all credit when things go right, who operate on a "because I said so" basis, who take the lion's share of the benefits may be perfectly within their rights. 

But will they be respected? Will they be liked? Are they the models that the lower level employees should emulate? Will people help build the business out of a sense of shared vision and commitment to a goal, or will they just punch the clock, do the minimum and get their a$$es home? Will people be constantly looking for a better job, taking their expertise to someone who seems to appreciate it more?

On the other hand there are the bosses who make sure the rules apply to everyone, and who reward commitment and loyalty by sharing the benefits with their employees-- the kind of bosses who pitch in and help with the dirty work when needed. The workers like and respect the boss, who seems to like and respect them in return.

I have had both kinds of bosses. Guess which ones got my best efforts, who I stayed with the longest, who I never badmouthed and who I still remember fondly? Guess which boss I would go back to work for, or would recommend others go work for?

And guess which ones had the highest attrition rates, the most pilfering of supplies and badmouthing by employees, the most toxic work environment, the most harassment and discrimination problems?

Any human in a position of responsibility over others, say a president, king, boss, police officer, teacher or parent, who behaved in the slightest bit like any of the gods described by the major religions, that human would be considered the very worst of their kind.

That is what throws me about the "god as lawgiver" model. How are we supposed to follow rules when the person who made them up does not seem able to follow them-- or to care enough about them to set a good example by following them?

God just comes off like a puffed up, tinpot dictator.  Or the worst kind of boss at a job. Or a schoolyard bully deciding who gets to play on the swings and who has to give up their lunch money. Because he can kick your a$$. It is not enough to say, well, he's god so he does not have to treat people nicely. Why is it okay for god to be a d!ck?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline YRM_DM

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2014, 03:34:03 PM »
The most basic moral standard is the Golden Rule: to treat others as well as you would like to be treated. The Golden Rule asks us to act as if everyone's pain and suffering is potentially the same as our own. If you don't want to be robbed, raped or killed, don't rob, rape or kill others. If you don't want your children to be sold into slavery, don't enslave other people's children and so forth.

So where does god fit into this? Does he treat others as he would like to be treated? Is his behavior towards others something that we should emulate? Does god (any god) follow the Golden Rule, as described by his followers? Should he? If not, why not?

If you're talking about the Christian God, he allows slavery, beating of slaves, virgins forced to be wives, babies and pregnant women put to the sword, and punishes people by hurting the children of other people.  (Pharoah, David, etc)

This is why "god complex" or "playing god" is considered evil.  Anyone using this good being's actions as an example is the worst psychopath dictator on the planet.
You can't spell BELIEVE without LIE...  and a few other letters.  B and E and V and I think E.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is god subject to the golden rule? If not, why not?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2014, 04:10:38 PM »
^^^^Isn't that interesting? "Playing god" always turns out to be a bad thing. Do as god says, not as he does, because god's words might be fine, but god's behavior sets a really bad example. Big time.

Parenting experts say that children learn more from what you do than what you say. When your words and actions don't match, children will see through the hypocrisy. They will absorb and imitate the actions as more meaningful.

Maybe god should read up on some parenting tips.  :? :angel:
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.