Author Topic: If at first you don't succeed...  (Read 889 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mrbiscoop

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 872
  • Darwins +28/-2
  • Faith is not a virtue!
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
              -Emo Philips

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 09:50:23 AM »
What is wrong with people? >:(
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online rev45

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
  • Darwins +35/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Did your parents raise you to be an idiot?
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 10:50:11 AM »
Quote
"With God's help, this will never happen again," Schaible told the court.
With God's help it wouldn't happen in the first place.  But then again maybe God wasn't going to help and sat by, watching the infant labor for breath.  Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world. 
Here read a book.  It's free.
http://www.literatureproject.com/

Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

Offline Quesi

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1983
  • Darwins +369/-4
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Parents believe in prayer over medicine and their second child dies
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 12:58:38 PM »
So this couple advocates for prayer over medicine.  A few years ago, their toddler died of bacterial pneumonia, and they were charged with involuntary manslaughter.

Now, another child, this time an 8 month old, died after receiving prayers rather than the care of a doctor. 

These parents were on probation for the death of their first child, when their second child died of the same neglect.  And they run a website to promote prayer over medicine and spread their doctrine to other families. 

All over the world, kids die because they don't have access to simple antibiotics.   I am so sickened that these parents could have saved the lives of these little children, but chose not to. 
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/2nd-child-of-pa-couple-who-seek-prayer-not-doctors-dies-violates-probation-no-charges-yet/2013/04/23/9e909206-ac07-11e2-9493-2ff3bf26c4b4_story.html

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #4 on: April 23, 2013, 02:52:50 PM »
What is the difference between how these parents treat their children and human sacrifice among the Inca and others from long ago?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline pianodwarf

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4328
  • Darwins +205/-5
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2013, 02:57:36 PM »
What is the difference between how these parents treat their children and human sacrifice among the Inca and others from long ago?

These parents (probably, anyway) honestly believe that they are trying to help their children.  Anyone performing a human sacrifice is under no such illusion, although they likely are under the illusion that they are pursuing some other type of benefit that justifies the slaying.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1118
  • Darwins +119/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2013, 03:12:59 PM »
Not for nothing but these people appear to be worse than stupid.  If you shun medical care then you should take extraordinary measures to avoid communicable diseases which it sounds like this kid had.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Dante

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2103
  • Darwins +69/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Hedonist Extraordinaire
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2013, 03:33:12 PM »
How is this different than all the other sorts of neglect that constitute child abuse? Well, except this resulted in death, yet again.

Fuck these people with broken glass. Then they can pray the pain away.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline stuffin

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 716
  • Darwins +25/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2013, 06:20:35 PM »
Their prayers are working people. They have 7 children still alive because of prayer. You atheists just don't get it.

[/sarcasim]

 :(
A true troll does not fear banning. Thanks GB

I pushed my soul in a deep dark hole and then I followed it in

Poverty is the parent of revolution and crime.
Aristotle

Offline IAmFirst

Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 10:40:23 PM »
Being from Philly, I remember how FUCKING OUTRAGED I was in 2011, now I don't know what the hell to feel.

I can't even fathom how anyone could imagine these people would even THINK of following the rules of the lucky-ass 10-probation sentence they got in 2011. The kids sure as fuck should've been taken from them in 2011. From Philly.com:http://articles.philly.com/2013-04-23/news/38766013_1_the-schaibles-catherine-schaible-herbert-schaible

Quote:
(in 2011) Herbert Schaible offered a few brief words of remorse and grief, then entrusted his family's fate to a higher power.

"With God's help, this will never happen again," Schaible told the court.
[/b]

Big fucking clue right there. Then:

Quote:
"When you were asked by police why you didn't call a doctor, you both responded, separately, with the same answer," Common Pleas Court Judge Benjamin Lerner said during a probation-violation hearing, referring to sealed statements the couple made to police.

"Because we believe God wants us to ask him for healing," Lerner quoted from the statements. "Our religion tells us not to call a doctor."

<snip>

"It could not be clearer from your statements that you knew he was sick several days before he died," Lerner said, "that he was getting worse and having problems with his breathing."

<snip>

Common Pleas Court Judge Carolyn Engel Temin made medical care the top priority for probation.

"You are to consult a medical practitioner whenever a child exhibits signs of being sick," the judge said, "and you are to follow the medical practitioner's advice to the letter."
[/b]
And here's the kicker for me:

Quote:
At the 2011 sentencing, Catherine Schaible's own attorney expressed doubts that the parents would call a doctor if any of their children became ill.

"I have some concerns personally about their ability within their faith or their willingness to proactively take their children to get medical attention," attorney Mythri Jayaraman said then.
[/b] (editing mine)

When your own fucking defense attorney is telling the court, the press that THEIR OWN CLIENT wouldn't be able to take a child to the doctor BY CHOICE BASED ON A FAIRY TALE, what else do we need to take the kids away from believing idiots?

We gotta put a fucking age limit on that book of retarded contradictions so we can at least have one generation of common sense in society. If you belong to any type of church like this one, you shouldn't be allowed to have kids or even be allowed to take care of yourself for that matter.

They broke probation by murdering another kid who only saw a doctor ONCE at ten days old, never since. Two counts of first degree murder each for both of them, godspeed.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2013, 10:52:32 PM by IAmFirst »
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10294
  • Darwins +177/-8
  • Gender: Male
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 06:46:26 AM »
Strange.  Christians all go nuts over stem cells and abortion but once the kid is born "fuck it".
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5651
  • Darwins +677/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 05:13:58 PM »
I am against forced sterilization, but in these cases I might be persuaded to make an exception. We have to figure out a way to have people like this face alternative sentencing, since regular criminal justice holds no meaning for them. Their dead kids are in heaven with the angels now.   :P &)

They will be allowed to deny their children medical care in favor of faith healing under one condition: the prayers cannot be of the Christian religion.

The healing must be performed by a Hindu mystic, a Muslim cleric, a Santero or a Vodun priestess. If they don't want any of those people praying and doing rituals over their sick kids, then they can get their ignorant a$$es to a doctor. >:(

Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline IAmFirst

Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #12 on: April 28, 2013, 04:32:08 PM »
Here's something that makes me even more irate, an interview with their pastor: http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130428_Pastor_says_Schaibles_would_stick_to_their_faith.html

Quote
The First Century Gospel Church begins each service with notes of praise for God's healing.

Church members e-mail or text small prayers of thanks to Pastor Nelson Clark, who reads them aloud inside a rented hall in Juniata Park, between playing hymns on a keyboard.

We thank and praise this man's toothache . . .

We thank and praise God for the passing of seasonal afflictions . . .

Yes, we thank and praise this man's enlarged prostate due to your blessed cancer, oh father. And we praise your divine infliction of vaginal warts for this woman...  &)

Quote
In an interview with The Inquirer, Clark said God did not want the Schaible children to die.

Instead, he said, the children died because of some "spiritual lack" in the Schaibles' lives - a flaw they need to correct to prevent future deaths.

"They realize they must get back to God, to seek wisdom from him, to find where the spiritual lack is in their heart and life . . . so this won't happen again."
 
There is no question Herbert Schaible would turn to prayer again if any of his six other children, whose ages range from about 8 to 17, fell ill, Clark said. Just as any First Century member would.

"He would confess his sins and repent to God and ask for a healing touch," Clark said.

The Schaibles would not call a doctor, even now, Clark said.

"Oh, no," he said. "That thought would never enter his mind."

Now why can't we arrest this guy? He obviously is encouraging dangerous behavior and illness within a community. In 1991, his church, First Century Gospel, as well as First Tabernacle churches, were responsible for 6 deaths of kids due to measles. There could've been 23 more deaths until, guess what, city health officials stepped in.

http://www.nytimes.com/1991/02/23/us/putting-faith-over-the-law-as-pupils-die.html

This is where we could and should start a protest against churches of this kind. Maybe it could help people examine their own religion, no matter how casual, and help them decide that there's no need for it.
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Online rev45

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
  • Darwins +35/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Did your parents raise you to be an idiot?
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #13 on: April 28, 2013, 04:44:00 PM »
^The children pay for the sins of the father.  And I wish the pastor would say, in detail, what exactly the Schaibles' were lacking in their relationship with their god.  He's as vague as a horoscope. 
Here read a book.  It's free.
http://www.literatureproject.com/

Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5651
  • Darwins +677/-1
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 04:48:24 PM »
Blaming the parents for not being religious enough to save their kids is truly adding a sick and evil twist to an already effed-up situation. So, when they go to jail they will think it is because they failed god, not because they neglected their kids' health and let them die needlessly. Shut that church down and arrest that pastor.

I am just out of non-profane words. Where is the cussing icon from ATT?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline IAmFirst

Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 04:58:19 PM »
... and we praise the pain of my ingrown toenail and pray for strength to stay away from using the evil nail clipper...

I seriously wonder what would happen if someone got really hurt outside their "church" after services. Say a meteor falls and crushes someone's legs, trapping them on the church steps. What then? "We praise this blessed meteor from god's personal rock collection taking the ability for this person to ever walk again but to also ever leave this church..."

This could make a great comedy sketch. Throw in a bashing from Westboro members holding signs reading, "God crushes gay legs", a round of Kumbaya and we've got a new musical! :D
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5962
  • Darwins +643/-3
  • Gender: Male
  • Entropy isn’t what it used to be
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2013, 06:47:18 PM »
Strange.  Christians all go nuts over stem cells and abortion but once the kid is born "fuck it".

Exactly right Nick. They want to get you born, but after that you're on your own.
Never trust an atom. They make up everything!

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11395
  • Darwins +272/-76
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2013, 08:18:58 PM »
http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130422_A_second_child_of_doctor-shunning_couple_dies.html

"We're against abortion but even more so: allowing our child to live by the demon called medicine."

-Nam

Offline IAmFirst

Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2013, 02:12:37 AM »
And if you're wondering why they only got probabtion the first time and haven't been arrested for the second, the State of Pennsylvania doesn't allow that in this case:

From same article I posted above:
Quote
Pennsylvania's Child Protective Services Law includes a religious exemption for instances in which parents neglect children's medical needs because of religious beliefs. Those faith-based cases cannot be labeled child abuse - a categorization many advocates feel prevents children from getting needed services.

And no, they're not the only state with cockamamie laws like this. I find it funny that its Virginia and Mississippi are the only states that DEMAND your children are vaccinated.
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline IAmFirst

Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2013, 11:27:05 PM »
At least the kids are getting medical examinations and vaccinations:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20130507_Schaible_children_get_court-ordered_medical_care.html

Quote from article:
Quote
Neither parent objected to the city agency's supervising their children's medical and dental visits, said Jayaraman and Bobby Hoof, who represents Herbert Schaible.

All of the children have received medical examinations and any needed immunizations, and appear to be healthy, Hoof said.

Their next hearing is on June 6th. The autopsy report on Brandon Schiable is expected to be ready by then. And that's what I'm really waiting for. If it shows any basic illness, probably curable by children's Tylenol, their probation is, or should be, revoked. Hopefully that leads to a murder trial.
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline IAmFirst

Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #20 on: May 29, 2013, 05:36:36 AM »
UPDATE:

Parents are charged with (3rd degree) murder, involuntary manslaughter, *conspiracy (hmmm...) and endangering the welfare of a child.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2329305/Faith-healing-parents-charged-MURDER-second-child-died-home-pneumonia-getting-medical-help-probation-death-son.html

From article:
Quote
A Philadelphia medical examiner has ruled 7-month-old Brandon Schaible’s death a homicide after an autopsy report found that the infant died April 18 from bacterial pneumonia and dehydration, UPI reported.

Here's what I find interesting. From article (Shawn Francis Peters):
Quote
‘One of the building blocks of our legal system is the idea that people will be afraid of being punished,’ Peters said. But people who trust in faith healing fear ‘a different kind of punishment,’ he said.

‘It's not an earthly punishment meted out by the state of Pennsylvania. It's punishment going to be delivered by the Almighty on Judgment Day. It's difficult to find a legal regime that can change that.’

A good point. Human law just won't do for some batshit believers. But what else is there? The laws in PA that allow parents to choose faith over medicine bows to this type of tripe. They're not the only state/country that allows laws like this.

Another source on the case:
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/dncrime/Faith-healing-couple-charged-with-third-degree-murder-in-infants-death.html

*conspiracy = the fact that the Schaibles are religious in the first place.
2nd of all, if all you believe in is peer-reviewed papers, you won't go very far in life...

-- Shin :D

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
  • Darwins +86/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: If at first you don't succeed...
« Reply #21 on: May 29, 2013, 08:50:16 AM »
Strange.  Christians all go nuts over stem cells and abortion but once the kid is born "fuck it".

Well, once they are born they are all sinful and born into a world of sin - is my guess what these nut jobs would say.  Better to just freeze those eggs and keep 'em pure!

Maybe they should lock these two away with no food or water and let them pray for it - see if sky god comes through for them??  The guards could remind them each day they will be seeing their two dead kids soon in that happy place if jeezus doesn't show up with an extra value meal...

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan