Author Topic: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god  (Read 4091 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« on: April 22, 2013, 08:22:00 AM »
This debate is between Anfauglir and junebug72.  The topic is junebug's evidence for god.  Only these two participants are permitted to post in this thread.  Non-participants may post in the commentary thread.

Any posts by non-participants in this thread will be deleted.

I suggest Anfauglir and junebug72 agree on a format and ending conditions prior to beginning their debate.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 08:24:14 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2013, 02:03:34 AM »
I would suggest that Junebug selects a statement about her god, and we can then examine the evidence for that statement.  I don't propose that we make this debate too formal, but I would suggest that we keep posts on topic, and examine only one piece of evidence at a time.  I would suggest that no more than 2 posts are made by either side before the other has posted a response.

When I say "evidence", I am thinking of that which would convince a disinterested observer as to the truth of the statement being made.  It should be testable and falsifiable.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2013, 07:53:11 AM »
When I say "evidence", I am thinking of that which would convince a disinterested observer as to the truth of the statement being made.  It should be testable and falsifiable.

moderator suggestion - perhaps you both discuss and hopefully agree on what constitutes evidence before you get started on junebug's thoughts about god?  Get that out of the way up front so it does not clog up the meat of the topic.

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2013, 10:03:27 AM »
When I say "evidence", I am thinking of that which would convince a disinterested observer as to the truth of the statement being made.  It should be testable and falsifiable.

moderator suggestion - perhaps you both discuss and hopefully agree on what constitutes evidence before you get started on junebug's thoughts about god?  Get that out of the way up front so it does not clog up the meat of the topic.

Fair enough.  I'll wait for Junebug to comment.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2013, 01:43:36 AM »
moderator suggestion - perhaps you both discuss and hopefully agree on what constitutes evidence before you get started on junebug's thoughts about god?  Get that out of the way up front so it does not clog up the meat of the topic.

I was thinking about this last night, and I have decided I will be happy for Junebug to decide what counts as evidence.

I mentioned several times in other threads the hypothetical John Johnson, and his belief that his Magical Talking Socks are responsible for all the good things that happen in his life.  I would suggest that we briefly discuss John and Junebug can outline what criteria she would accept as evidence that his Socks really are changing his life (as opposed to the belief in his Socks changing his life).

When Junebug has laid down what level and type of evidence she would regard as proof of John's claim, we can then use those criteria to examine any claims she wishes to make about her god.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2013, 07:29:35 AM »
Sorry for the delay been busy. I've found the room. I'll get back to you this evening. Thanks.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #6 on: April 24, 2013, 09:16:29 PM »
Ok you want evidence and I say you're living in it. Belief is based on reason and logic. I believe God is the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2013, 09:18:41 PM »
Like the two post suggestion.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2013, 02:18:06 AM »
Just for clarification: I am not interested in discussing whether a person believes any claim that they make.  In general terms, I regard that as self evident.  I believe that YOU believe that your god is the power that is life (etc), and I believe that JOHN believes that his socks are the power that is life (etc).  I grant that you both believe what you believe, no problem.

What I am interested in is what either side is using to support their beliefs, and whether what they are using can be substantiated.

I mentioned several times in other threads the hypothetical John Johnson, and his belief that his Magical Talking Socks are responsible for all the good things that happen in his life.  I would suggest that we briefly discuss John and Junebug can outline what criteria she would accept as evidence that his Socks really are changing his life (as opposed to the belief in his Socks changing his life).

Ok you want evidence and I say you're living in it. Belief is based on reason and logic. I believe God is the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2013, 03:34:37 PM »
Just for clarification: I am not interested in discussing whether a person believes any claim that they make.  In general terms, I regard that as self evident.  I believe that YOU believe that your god is the power that is life (etc), and I believe that JOHN believes that his socks are the power that is life (etc).  I grant that you both believe what you believe, no problem.

What I am interested in is what either side is using to support their beliefs, and whether what they are using can be substantiated.

I mentioned several times in other threads the hypothetical John Johnson, and his belief that his Magical Talking Socks are responsible for all the good things that happen in his life.  I would suggest that we briefly discuss John and Junebug can outline what criteria she would accept as evidence that his Socks really are changing his life (as opposed to the belief in his Socks changing his life).

Ok you want evidence and I say you're living in it. Belief is based on reason and logic. I believe God is the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?

I thought we were here to have a serious debate. John has not told me any such thing. Get John on here to tell me his story and then I'll make my decision. Unless you are John and you have magic socks; then I'd still be happy to hear about it. I'd even be happy with a link. Would be nice to ask John, the believer in socks, just a few questions.
 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 04:06:30 AM »
John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?

I thought we were here to have a serious debate. John has not told me any such thing. Get John on here to tell me his story and then I'll make my decision. Unless you are John and you have magic socks; then I'd still be happy to hear about it. I'd even be happy with a link. Would be nice to ask John, the believer in socks, just a few questions.

The goal is to establish what is sufficient evidence to support a claim.  You made an assertion about your god, and the evidence that you believed is sufficient to accept that claim.  My point is that the exact same assertions could be made by anyone to support the claims they make for their god. 

Hence my question: if a person, who believed in something entirely different from you, gave as their claim for evidence that "you're living in it. Belief is based on reason and logic. I believe XXXX is the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist", would you accept that as sufficient evidence for XXXX, whatever that is?

As I said above, I have no problem with YOU defining what is acceptable as "evidence" for this discussion.  The only stipulation I make is that the composition of that evidence should only be applicable to your specific definition of god.  If it is NOT - and the evidence you present would equally support the god of another believer, or of the hypothetical John, then it is clearly NOT evidence for your particular god.

Hence, I ask the question again - its straightforward, so should presumably only need a yes or no answer.

John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?

Remember: we're not into OUR debate yet - we're just framing terms.  Specifically, "what is sufficient evidence to support the claim of a god".  Once we've agreed what sufficient evidence would be, we can examine your particular claims.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 10:35:12 AM »
God loves you.

That is what I feel like I was sent here to tell you. God wants you to know.

God wants the world to know the Love is there for us all.

I think God wants us to put our differences over religions aside and fight the real cause of poverty that is greed.


This is what I understand of God.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #12 on: April 26, 2013, 12:00:25 PM »
junebug,

That really does not address the topic or the points put forth.   It looks to me like statements of your own faith.  You are welcome to them, but this is not the place for it. 

The question before you is:

What is sufficient evidence to establish the truth of a claim?  This is important. It is how this discussion will move forward. 

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2013, 05:51:36 AM »
junebug,

That really does not address the topic or the points put forth.   It looks to me like statements of your own faith.  You are welcome to them, but this is not the place for it. 

The question before you is:

What is sufficient evidence to establish the truth of a claim?  This is important. It is how this discussion will move forward. 



Anf
Quote
I would suggest that Junebug selects a statement about her god, and we can then examine the evidence for that statement.

God loves you too screwey.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #14 on: April 27, 2013, 02:08:55 PM »
Before we can discuss any claim, we need to establish what is acceptable as evidence for a claim, hence my question about John.

John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?

If - as I suspect - you feel that John has NOT provided sufficient evidence, what evidence would you wish him to provide?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2013, 05:18:55 AM »
Before we can discuss any claim, we need to establish what is acceptable as evidence for a claim, hence my question about John.

John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?

If - as I suspect - you feel that John has NOT provided sufficient evidence, what evidence would you wish him to provide?

I accepted this debate to talk about the existence of God. I don't care if John believes in socks. I know too much about socks. I wear them on my feet everyday.

God is a mystery.   
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2013, 03:06:52 AM »
I accepted this debate to talk about the existence of God.....God is a mystery.

This debate - as you will knoe quite clearly from the discussions that when on when it was being set up, is to debate the evidence for your god.  Thus far, you have refused to discuss what you regard as sufficient evidence for a claim, nor have you made any attempt to present any evidence.

Do you intend to debate the evidence for your god Junebug, yes or no?  If you are unwilling or unable to do so, please let me know and we can stop wasting our time.

If you DO intend to debate evidence, then before we begin we need to agree on what is sufficient evidence to support such a claim.  I am trying to establish what you believe is sufficient, by suggesting that the hypothetical John has made an identical claim to the one you made in this thread, and asking whether his statement is sufficient for you to accept his claim.

John asserts that his Magic Talking Socks are the Power that is Life and without that Power life would not exist.

Do you accept that John has provided sufficient evidence to support his claim?

Now.....you also stated that "I don't care if John believes in socks. I know too much about socks. I wear them on my feet everyday", which appears to mean that you do NOT believe John has presented sufficient information to support his claim.  I'll use these claims to begin to establish our baseline for sufficient evidence

First Criteria - "I don't care if John believes in socks".  Absolutely agree.  What one person happens to believe is entirely irrelevant as evidence as to the fact behind any belief.  We can therefore discard any statements beginning "I believe....." as being evidence.  I thank you in advance for not offering any further statements of that kind as evidence.

Second Criteria - "I know too much about socks".  Interesting.  You are suggesting that the fact that you have examined a large number of claims about an item - in this case socks - therefore invalidates any future claim about a particular item of that class?  "I have worn socks - my socks have never exhibitied magical properties - therefore no socks have magical properties".  I applaud you for this position, as it is generally a good one to have - however it does present us with a problem.

"I have examined many claims for gods.  None have ever displayed any magical properties.  Therefore no claims for gods are true" would be my flipped version of your statement, which leaves us with a problem.  By the terms you are using, we cannot accept as true your own claim about a god - we must reject it immediately, without looking at evidence because no claim in the past has ever proven true.

I don't think that is the position you want me to take, so - in determining sufficient evidence, we need to look at how we can establish the truth of a claim.  Hence, I return to John's socks.

Without dismissing his claim as irrelevant and unworthy of examination, what criteria would you use to investigate the truth of John's claim?  What evidence would you accept from him that might support his claim as being true?

Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2013, 06:27:22 AM »
Good Morning Anf,

Why couldn't you just ask me if I believe God exists. It would have saved us some time. The difference is, according to this website, 2 billion believers in this world. I don't think there are 2 billion sock worshippers. There is nothing identical about your socks and my belief. The sooner you put them back in your drawer we can continue.

I would also like to add I do not have personal experience believing in socks, never once helped me through a hard time.  My belief in God has and counting.

I tell you what Anf., God is not going to reveal Himself to us. If you have to use your natural senses to believe you never will. Just because I can't produce God doesn't mean God's not there, it means I can't do it. You might not mind messing around with God that way but I do. How do you expect us to do this. I'm afraid of heights so I won't be taking off in a rocketship any time soon.

Are you afraid to reason with me Anf? You asked me what evidence to use here I said "reason." You have not addressed that yet. For example: I don't believe in "luck."  I believe in "intelligence."

I believe there's enough evidence to continue my path of Godliness. God is a mystery and until God changes His mind about that, God will stay a mystery. Imagine God reveals Himself, what impact do you think that would have on mankind. I think we'd get real lazy, wanting God to fix everything.  I'm not ready to meet God. 

There is a celestial reason why God is a mystery, reveal that mystery and mankind's course is permanently altered.

I believe free will is necessary for mankind to deserve celestial freedom. 

Are you a scientist?

The only way to talk me out of belief is with reason. I reasoned myself into it I must be reasoned out of it. I am not here to prove God exists to you, if you don't want to believe it's okay by me, I still loves ya.

The only reason I came to this site was to show you that all believers aren't hateful.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2013, 07:02:27 AM »
I tell you what Anf., God is not going to reveal Himself to us.

You asked me what evidence to use here I said "reason." You have not addressed that yet.

I believe there's enough evidence to continue my path of Godliness. God is a mystery and until God changes His mind about that, God will stay a mystery.

Is there any evidence - any "reason" - you have, that John could not use to demonstrate the truth of his Magical Socks?

If you have any such reasoning, then by all means share it.

But please be advised that if that reasoning does not point exclusively to your god - if that reasoning can be used by ANY believer to support their own particular god - then you will have to explain why I should take your word for it over theirs.

You have said several times in your last post that your god is a mystery, that your god deliberately wishes not to reveal himself.  If your position is therefore "I have no evidence that supports my god", then please state that clearly for the record and we can have done.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2013, 04:58:31 AM »
All you care about is socks. I didn't come here to talk about socks.  I will not acknowledge anymore questions or comments about socks.

I take it you are not a scientist, neither am I. See you're challenge here is just taunting and not a real inquisition.

You want evidence you don't have to work for.  You are unwilling to try anything so how can I help you with evidence. You are the judge and jury of evidence, there is no unbiased mediator here.   Let me try to say this again in a way that you might understand.  We do not have that kind of technology, unless you have designed some sort of spacecraft to travel deep into space and we'll probably not ever make it back here. Are you ready to do that? 


The complexity of life requires God.  Your big bang theory doesn't quite take care of that one.  There are thousands of species and each one has it's own individual characteristics. The perfection of the location of our planet, it's atmosphere and it's longevity are all signs of intelligence not luck! These signs of intelligence are evidence whether you want to accept it or not. 

Got a question for you, do you think it's possible there are aliens or are we the only life form in the universe?

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2013, 05:31:14 AM »
All you care about is socks. I didn't come here to talk about socks.  I will not acknowledge anymore questions or comments about socks.

I take it you are not a scientist, neither am I. See you're challenge here is just taunting and not a real inquisition.

....and so you reveal you know nothing of the scientific method.  Let me explain further, then perhaps you will understand why I keep referring to John's socks.

Scientific study begins with a hypothesis - in your case, that would be "god exists".
We then begin to test for evidence that supports that hypothesis.
Evidence that is not specific to the hypothesis put forward cannot be used to support that hypothesis.  For example, if the hypothesis is "there is a fire in this room", then the evidence "I am hot" does not, in and of itself, support the hypothesis.  There could be a large window looking South through which the sun is streaming.  I could be sick and running a fever.  To simply say "I am hot - therefore there MUST be a fire in this room" is not sufficient.

You want evidence you don't have to work for.  You are unwilling to try anything so how can I help you with evidence. You are the judge and jury of evidence, there is no unbiased mediator here.   

That's THREE false statements there.  In reverse order:

"You are the judge and jury of evidence" UNTRUE.  Right from the word go, I have said that YOU can decide what is credible evidence for your hypothesis.  All I have asked you to do is explain why whatever evidence you produce does not support any alternative god-hypothesis.  The judge of evidence is YOU, Junebug - you just need to be prepared to be impartial. 

"You are unwilling[/b] to try anything....."  UNTRUE.  But perhaps I missed it, so by all means link to where you specified something for me to try.

"You want evidence you don't have to work for."  UNTRUE.  Though, to be fair, since you haven't offered ANY evidence so far, its hard to really evaluate this one.  Once you offer a piece of evidence, we can discuss.

Let me try to say this again in a way that you might understand.  We do not have that kind of technology, unless you have designed some sort of spacecraft to travel deep into space and we'll probably not ever make it back here. Are you ready to do that? 

So you HAVE no evidence you can present - is that what you are saying?

The complexity of life requires God.  Your big bang theory doesn't quite take care of that one.  There are thousands of species and each one has it's own individual characteristics. The perfection of the location of our planet, it's atmosphere and it's longevity are all signs of intelligence not luck! These signs of intelligence are evidence whether you want to accept it or not. 

ALL ASSERTIONS.  And - much as you hate to accept it - EVERY assertion made there can be made by John.  "My magic socks created all the species, located the planet, made the atmosphere."

Its why I HAVE to keep returning to that point, Junebug.  Because - so far as I can tell - you have presented NOTHING that can not be used to support ANY other hypothesis for a god, or supernatural power, or magic talking socks.

Do you have one single piece of evidence that can solely be attributable to your particular god, Junebug?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2013, 05:33:01 AM »
I take it you are not a scientist, neither am I.

Depends what you mean by "scientist".  I do not wear a white coat and work in a lab, if that is what you mean.  But I did have to design and run experiments when studying for my BSc - does that meet your criteria?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2013, 07:04:06 AM »
You did not have to use a sock hypothesis here, as I have explained it is not the same and really, can we put that to rest?

Let's prove this statement: JB thinks God Created the universe.


So you think we know everything that has gone on in the universe since the beginning of time? Where did the matter come from that banged us into existence. Where did the universe come from? God is not a person. I know religion makes it seem that way, but God is not.  It is a simple three letter word but the human definition is infinite.  When I try to define where God comes from I feel like my heads going to explode.  It's like I can feel it, but I can not articulate it.  Words do not exist to describe what I feel when I think of the beginning of all that is.  Point being something stops my brain. You know I learn things fast but I've never tried to input information into my brain that makes it react that way. It's like this, I'll think where did that come from until all I'm left with is a big void. Somehow out of that void came life.  God is how I define that mystery; only God knows. Without the word God there, there would be a void in the sentence just like the one in my brain. I'm telling you Anf this is really physically challenging. This experience I'm having I wish you could feel it. I wish you had probes hooked up to me right now so you could at least see the change in my heartbeat. My adrenaline has got to be up right now. It's slowing back now. 

I'm going to leave it there for now. Don't assume you know anything about what just happened here with my vitals, you were not present but I was definitely lightheaded and breathless.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2013, 08:09:06 AM »
You did not have to use a sock hypothesis here, as I have explained it is not the same and really, can we put that to rest?

Let's prove this statement: JB thinks God Created the universe.....

I'm going to stop you there.  I do not, and have never, disputed the fact that that is what you believe.  I am entirely confident you believe that.  I do not (usually) demand that people prove that they actually hold a particular belief. 

But that is NOT what this thread is about.  Check the title - "debate evidence for god", not "debate evidence for a belief".

So I'll ask again - what evidence do you have that your beliefs are correct?  Not that you hold the beliefs, but that you are correct in what you believe.

- - - - -

BTW (and don't feel you have to answer this, just consider it....).  What would you say if John wrote to me to tell me he gets the exact same feelings of adrenaline and lightheadedness when he contemplates the mysteries of the universe....but concludes that the actual answer is his Magic Talking Socks?  Because - and so sorry to belabour the point - but that is all you have done.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2013, 06:07:30 AM »
You did not have to use a sock hypothesis here, as I have explained it is not the same and really, can we put that to rest?

Let's prove this statement: JB thinks God Created the universe.....

I'm going to stop you there.  I do not, and have never, disputed the fact that that is what you believe.  I am entirely confident you believe that.  I do not (usually) demand that people prove that they actually hold a particular belief. 

But that is NOT what this thread is about.  Check the title - "debate evidence for god", not "debate evidence for a belief".

So I'll ask again - what evidence do you have that your beliefs are correct?  Not that you hold the beliefs, but that you are correct in what you believe.

- - - - -

BTW (and don't feel you have to answer this, just consider it....).  What would you say if John wrote to me to tell me he gets the exact same feelings of adrenaline and lightheadedness when he contemplates the mysteries of the universe....but concludes that the actual answer is his Magic Talking Socks?  Because - and so sorry to belabour the point - but that is all you have done.

I felt God's presence as I have many times since coming to this website. Right there is your evidence.

See I told you, you would deny all evidence.  Deny it all you want it doesn't make it so. You said I can decide what is evidence I say this is strong evidence, absolute evidence, evidence you can not deny.

I have explained much of my reasoning which you will not address.

Check this out: http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml, Those ten miracles are evidence.

There are many more miracles Anf, many more.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #25 on: May 02, 2013, 08:09:48 AM »
What would you say if John wrote to me to tell me he gets the exact same feelings of adrenaline and lightheadedness when he contemplates the mysteries of the universe....but concludes that the actual answer is his Magic Talking Socks?  Because - and so sorry to belabour the point - but that is all you have done.

I felt God's presence as I have many times since coming to this website. Right there is your evidence.

<sigh>  Junebug, I'm not sure how many times I can say this.  You felt something, you tell me.  Super.  But JOHN felt something, he tells me.  Telling me "I feel something" is not evidence.

See I told you, you would deny all evidence.  Deny it all you want it doesn't make it so. You said I can decide what is evidence I say this is strong evidence, absolute evidence, evidence you can not deny.

Yes, I did.  I ALSO said that whatever you say is sufficient as a type of evidence, I must also be allowed to apply to any other claim.

You said "I felt god", and say that that is evidence.  So the evidence you will accept is the testimony of someone that they feel something, and that what they say they feel actually exists.

Fine.  But then I apply that same standard to John's claim: he says "I felt Socks", and says that is evidence.  So - by your terms - I must accept his testimony that he feels something, and that what he says he feels actually exists.

Possibly the problem may be that you feel that what is sufficient evidence to satisfy YOU, should also satisfy everyone else?  I can quite see how the feelings you have are sufficient evidence for YOU....but you telling me you have a feeling is no use to me.

QUESTION:  Place yourself in my shoes for a moment, Junebug.  You and John are making what appear to be identical claims that what you both feel is the result of a particular thing's acting upon you.  If you had NOT experienced either person's feeling for yourself, what criteria would you use to determine which person's claim you should believe?

To put it another way: every single statement you have made about what you feel about your god COULD be a deliberate lie.  How can I determine if you are lying, or not?


I have explained much of my reasoning which you will not address.

Nope.  Because this debate is about the evidence.  If you want to start a seperate debate on your reasons, I'd be happy to join you for that as well.  But reasoning is NOT evidence.  Reasoning, I would further say, is pointless if the axioms you start from have no evidential basis: one could start with the axiom "there are fairies at the bottom of the garden", and reason quite logically and soundly from that point on, such that not a single step could be faulted.  But that would not make any conclusions true, if those fairies did not exist.

Check this out: http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml, Those ten miracles are evidence.

If they are, then any claim by a Hindu or a Muslim to have been cured - and those claims do exist - are similarly evidence that THEIR god exists, is that not true?  What if John said "yep - my socks cured them" - how would you prove his claim to be false?

On a more general point, these stories do not, I'm afraid, meet the requirements of a scientific experiment.  Briefly, this is because:
The study does not look at people who prayed, and who did NOT get well.
They study does not look at people who did not pray, and who nevertheless got well.

Evidentially speaking, they are cherry-picked examples where the doctor sought for patients that satisfied the two criteria that (a) they prayed, and (b) they got better.  How many patients did he discount before he found those ten, Junebug?  Twenty?  A thousand?

If you want to present evidence, then by all means produce a study that:
1) Looks at several thousand patients with incurable diseases.
2) Keeps a seperate control group that is NOT prayed for.
3) Shows that the patients prayed for got better at a statistically significantly higher rate than those who did not.

Actually, there HAVE been studies that fulfilled the first two steps, Junebug.  And they found no difference between pateints who were prayed for, and patients who were not.

- - - - -

Summary of questions:

If you had NOT experienced either person's feelings for yourself, what criteria would you use to determine which person's claim you should believe?

How can I determine if you are lying about the feelings you have?

Are claims by Muslims that Allah healed them evidence that Allah exists?  If not, why not?

If John claims it was, in fact, his socks that healed them, is that evidence for his socks?  If not, why not?

Do you know of a studt that uses a blind control group, that shows a statistically significant increase in healings on patients prayed for, as opposed to those who are not?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2013, 03:35:33 AM »
John does not exist I do. Big difference, big.

I thought you knew how to examine evidence. If I was in your shoes I would check the information.  See if any other "real" people have experienced the same phenomena.  After that I would then set up clinical tests on those individuals and compare data.

There is proof of something supernatural from those healings!!!

You are the one that thinks it's possible to find and examine evidence on a forum when I have already pointed out to you it's not possible. If you had been here when I had my "spiritual" experience, you could have learned a whole lot more.  You would at least know something happened.

I don't know why either of us are here.  You say you want evidence of God but you don't have any desire to find God.  That just don't make sense.  I am not going to convince you there is a God because you don't want to be convinced.  In fact, you try very hard not to be.  I don't believe you should try to cram beliefs down someone's throat Anf. I believe people should communicate their thoughts, "express yourself", but there comes a time when you have to "live and let live." I have shared my story with you that's all a girl can do. You do what you like with it.  Just know that there is a believer that loves you and wishes you happiness. 

I don't want to fight and that's what this feels like.  I just know we're in trouble if we don't learn how to work together. I'm on a mission of peace not war.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 04:31:31 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2013, 03:44:58 AM »
John does not exist I do, didn't even read the rest of this post.

I'm not surprised.  They ARE difficult questions for you to answer.  But here is an amended version, just for you, that makes no mention at all of John, or his socks.  As such, I will expect you to answer all the questions asked.

- - - - -

I felt God's presence as I have many times since coming to this website. Right there is your evidence.

<sigh>  Junebug, I'm not sure how many times I can say this.  You felt something, you tell me.  Super.  But other people have feelings, they tell me.  Telling me "I feel something" is not evidence.

See I told you, you would deny all evidence.  Deny it all you want it doesn't make it so. You said I can decide what is evidence I say this is strong evidence, absolute evidence, evidence you can not deny.

Yes, I did.  I ALSO said that whatever you say is sufficient as a type of evidence, I must also be allowed to apply to any other claim.

You said "I felt god", and say that that is evidence.  So the evidence you will accept is the testimony of someone that they feel something, and that what they say they feel actually exists.

Fine.  But then I apply that same standard to any other claim.  If someone says "I feel this", and says that is evidence, then - by your terms - I must accept their testimony as fact, and that what they say they feel actually exists.

Possibly the problem may be that you feel that what is sufficient evidence to satisfy YOU, should also satisfy everyone else?  I can quite see how the feelings you have are sufficient evidence for YOU....but you telling me you have a feeling is no use to me.

QUESTION:  Place yourself in my shoes for a moment, Junebug.  People are making what appear to be identical claims that what they feel is the result of a particular thing's acting upon them.  If you had NOT experienced either person's feeling for yourself, what criteria would you use to determine which person's claim you should believe?

To put it another way: every single statement you have made about what you feel about your god COULD be a deliberate lie.  How can I determine if you are lying, or not?

I have explained much of my reasoning which you will not address.

Nope.  Because this debate is about the evidence.  If you want to start a seperate debate on your reasons, I'd be happy to join you for that as well.  But reasoning is NOT evidence.  Reasoning, I would further say, is pointless if the axioms you start from have no evidential basis: one could start with the axiom "there are fairies at the bottom of the garden", and reason quite logically and soundly from that point on, such that not a single step could be faulted.  But that would not make any conclusions true, if those fairies did not exist.

Check this out: http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml, Those ten miracles are evidence.

If they are, then any claim by a Hindu or a Muslim to have been cured - and those claims do exist - are similarly evidence that THEIR god exists, is that not true? 

On a more general point, these stories do not, I'm afraid, meet the requirements of a scientific experiment.  Briefly, this is because:
The study does not look at people who prayed, and who did NOT get well.
They study does not look at people who did not pray, and who nevertheless got well.

Evidentially speaking, they are cherry-picked examples where the doctor sought for patients that satisfied the two criteria that (a) they prayed, and (b) they got better.  How many patients did he discount before he found those ten, Junebug?  Twenty?  A thousand?

If you want to present evidence, then by all means produce a study that:
1) Looks at several thousand patients with incurable diseases.
2) Keeps a seperate control group that is NOT prayed for.
3) Shows that the patients prayed for got better at a statistically significantly higher rate than those who did not.

Actually, there HAVE been studies that fulfilled the first two steps, Junebug.  And they found no difference between pateints who were prayed for, and patients who were not.

- - - - -

Summary of questions:

If you had NOT experienced either person's feelings for yourself, what criteria would you use to determine which person's claim you should believe?

How can I determine if you are lying about the feelings you have?

Are claims by Muslims that Allah healed them evidence that Allah exists?  If not, why not?

Do you know of a study that uses a blind control group, that shows a statistically significant increase in healings on patients prayed for, as opposed to those who are not?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Anfauglir and junebug72 debate evidence for god
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2013, 03:47:56 AM »
If you like, here is the short version.

What evidence do YOU require if someone asks YOU to accept that the object of their beliefs really exists?

We still haven't even gotten to looking at your evidence yet Junebug.  I'm still trying to establish whether you have a consistent definition of what constitues evidence that we can use for the coming debate.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?