John does not exist I do, didn't even read the rest of this post.
I'm not surprised. They ARE difficult questions for you to answer. But here is an amended version, just for you, that makes no mention at all of John, or his socks. As such, I will expect you to answer all the questions asked
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I felt God's presence as I have many times since coming to this website. Right there is your evidence.
<sigh> Junebug, I'm not sure how many times I can say this. You felt something, you tell me. Super. But other people have feelings, they tell me. Telling me "I feel something" is not evidence.
See I told you, you would deny all evidence. Deny it all you want it doesn't make it so. You said I can decide what is evidence I say this is strong evidence, absolute evidence, evidence you can not deny.
Yes, I did. I ALSO said that whatever you say is sufficient as a type of evidence, I must also be allowed to apply to any other claim.
You said "I felt god", and say that that is evidence. So the evidence you will accept is the testimony of someone that they feel something, and that what they say they feel actually exists.
Fine. But then I apply that same standard to any other claim. If someone says "I feel this
", and says that is evidence, then - by your terms - I must accept their testimony as fact, and that what they say they feel actually exists.
Possibly the problem may be that you feel that what is sufficient evidence to satisfy YOU, should also satisfy everyone else? I can quite see how the feelings you have are sufficient evidence for YOU....but you telling me you have a feeling is no use to me.
QUESTION: Place yourself in my shoes for a moment, Junebug. People are making what appear to be identical claims that what they feel is the result of a particular thing's acting upon them. If you had NOT experienced either person's feeling for yourself, what criteria would you use to determine which person's claim you should believe?
To put it another way: every single statement you have made about what you feel about your god COULD be a deliberate lie. How can I determine if you are lying, or not?
I have explained much of my reasoning which you will not address.
Nope. Because this debate is about the evidence. If you want to start a seperate debate on your reasons, I'd be happy to join you for that as well. But reasoning is NOT evidence. Reasoning, I would further say, is pointless if the axioms you start from have no evidential basis: one could start with the axiom "there are fairies at the bottom of the garden", and reason quite logically and soundly from that point on, such that not a single step could be faulted. But that would not make any conclusions true, if those fairies did not exist.
Check this out: http://www.is-there-a-god.info/life/tenhealings.shtml, Those ten miracles are evidence.
If they are, then any claim by a Hindu or a Muslim to have been cured - and those claims do exist - are similarly evidence that THEIR god exists, is that not true?
On a more general point, these stories do not, I'm afraid, meet the requirements of a scientific experiment. Briefly, this is because:
The study does not look at people who prayed, and who did NOT get well.
They study does not look at people who did not pray, and who nevertheless got well.
Evidentially speaking, they are cherry-picked examples where the doctor sought for patients that satisfied the two criteria that (a) they prayed, and (b) they got better. How many patients did he discount before he found those ten, Junebug? Twenty? A thousand?
If you want to present evidence, then by all means produce a study that:
1) Looks at several thousand patients with incurable diseases.
2) Keeps a seperate control group that is NOT prayed for.
3) Shows that the patients prayed for got better at a statistically significantly higher rate than those who did not.
Actually, there HAVE been studies that fulfilled the first two steps, Junebug. And they found no difference between pateints who were prayed for, and patients who were not.
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Summary of questions:
If you had NOT experienced either person's feelings for yourself, what criteria would you use to determine which person's claim you should believe?
How can I determine if you are lying about the feelings you have?
Are claims by Muslims that Allah healed them evidence that Allah exists? If not, why not?
Do you know of a study that uses a blind control group, that shows a statistically significant increase in healings on patients prayed for, as opposed to those who are not?