Author Topic: Why did Jesus have to be born?  (Read 2099 times)

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Offline Hierophant

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Why did Jesus have to be born?
« on: April 19, 2013, 02:52:45 AM »
If we accept the Christian view that Jesus was a historical and divine person at the same time (whatever that means), why did he have to be born at all?

I have in mind the quote: "the fact of having been born is a bad augury for immortality." Why would a fully divine being need to be born and grow up? What lesson is that supposed to teach us? From a purely doctrinal standpoint, it also introduces so many headaches (such as the need for the Immaculate Conception of Mary). I don't really see the point.

Offline Nick

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2013, 05:40:07 AM »
Plus the 1st 30 years seem to have been a waste.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2013, 06:16:11 AM »
If we accept the Christian view that Jesus was a historical and divine person at the same time (whatever that means), why did he have to be born at all?

I have in mind the quote: "the fact of having been born is a bad augury for immortality." Why would a fully divine being need to be born and grow up? What lesson is that supposed to teach us? From a purely doctrinal standpoint, it also introduces so many headaches (such as the need for the Immaculate Conception of Mary). I don't really see the point.

exactly. I made this point elsewhere. I woulda been more convinced if he appeared out of the blue, or god just made him from dirt, ala Adam. All being born does is caste doubt, because we ALL know where babies come from.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2013, 06:20:05 AM »
Plus the 1st 30 years seem to have been a waste.

Not really, they were pretty vital years.

Jesus - as part of Yahweh - was accustomed to being in all places at all times, communicating via telepathy, able to transform his shape, create stuff from nothing.....then all of a sudden he's trapped inside a human body. 

It probably took him fourteen years to learn how to stand up without constantly toppling over.  I just wonder how many doors he tried to float through before he twigged that he was no longer a Holy Insubstantial Being.  We really should see more portraits of a Jesus with a repeatedbly broken nose.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2013, 06:43:12 AM »
Incredible birth stories were a common place device at the time. Most gods/demigods had one;

Zeus/jupiter - tricked his dad into eating a stone instead of him
Athena/Minerva - burst fully formed and armoured from dads head
Theseus - mother seduced by a god(!) disguised as her husband
etc...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

Even historical figures had incredible births
Julius Ceaser - allegedly born by Cesarean section (pretty incredible at the time)
Alexander the Great - the temple of of Artemis in Ephesus was said to have burned down on the day of his birth as Artemis was busy attending Alexanders birth

Incidentally both of these historical figures were later deified.

As the people at the time were brought up with these legends if Jesus hadn't of had a miraculous birth story he just wouldn't have been a credible deity to them and the story writers knew this...

edited for grammar
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 07:29:17 AM by Mrjason »

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2013, 07:18:11 AM »
Incredible birth stories were a common place device at the time. Most gods/demigods had one;

Zeus/jupiter - tricked his dad into eating a stone instead of him
Athena/Minerva - burst fully formed and armoured from dads head
Theseus - mother seduced by a god(!) disguised as her husband
etc...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miraculous_births

Even historical figures had an incredible births
Julius Ceaser - allegedly born by Cesarean section (pretty incredible at the time)
Alexander the Great - the temple of of Artemis in Ephesus was said to have burned down on the day of his birth as Artemis was busy attending Alexanders birth

Incidentally both of these historical figures were later deified.

As the people at the time were brought up with these legends if Jesus hadn't of had a miraculous birth story he just wouldn't have been a credible deity to them and the story writers knew this...

edited for grammar

They also didnt have dna testing...
yahweh would know better than to have jesus born today... mary would be on the maury show ASAP...

"yahweh, you are NOT the father"

and yahweh breaks out in dance...

Offline Nick

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2013, 08:09:51 AM »
Plus the 1st 30 years seem to have been a waste.

Not really, they were pretty vital years.

Jesus - as part of Yahweh - was accustomed to being in all places at all times, communicating via telepathy, able to transform his shape, create stuff from nothing.....then all of a sudden he's trapped inside a human body. 

It probably took him fourteen years to learn how to stand up without constantly toppling over.  I just wonder how many doors he tried to float through before he twigged that he was no longer a Holy Insubstantial Being.  We really should see more portraits of a Jesus with a repeatedbly broken nose.....
And imagine trying to figure out what to do with bodily waste?  Holy Shi......
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2013, 10:21:05 AM »
Don't know where this fits, but why isn't there any accounts of jesus in heaven before he came to earth?

 :angel:
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2013, 10:27:10 AM »
Don't know where this fits, but why isn't there any accounts of jesus in heaven before he came to earth?

 :angel:

Jesus was the big guy when he was in heaven, when he came to earth he was still the big guy but in human form (and also in heaven at the same time). then he died and went back to heaven where he was god again.

I think.

I imagine it to be a bit like the scene in terminator 2 where the T-1000 put his foot near a bit of him thats been shot off and it just reabsorbs into his body.

Offline Hierophant

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2013, 03:00:04 PM »
Well, talking about Jesus before he was "born" (for whatever reason) skirts dangerously close to talking about the trinity... which is a real cluster****.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2013, 03:25:29 PM »
Good question. Simple answer.

My take is this: Those creating the religious stories (which they may or may not have believed) had no idea that their tales would have to stand the scrutiny of people who could read and write and discuss it worldwide within a couple millennia. Those people were probably used to being treated with awe, and had no particular reason to go for realism or consider future interpretations.

That said, they had some explaining to do and they were trying to fill in some gaps in their story. No matter what they wrote, we atheists would be wondering what the f**k they were thinking when they came up with that specific account. Whether it was a kid or a grandpa or a giant panda in the shape of a stick that peed silver urine to bless believers, we would be asking where they got such a  fairytale.  Since they couldn't come up with anything that was true, they were doomed to create an iffy tale that would not go unquestioned, once in the hands of skeptics.

So I don't think the specific content of the Jesus story is too important, other than it happens to be the sob story they chose. From an atheist perspective, they were doomed from the get go.

Had they had something real to base it on, it wouldn't have quite so many holes.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline Tero

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 05:49:49 PM »
He had to be part human to be visible. And to be able to "die".

If he just popped up, he would have been invisible, or visible only to believers. He was made to be a regular guy. But no documented sex.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2013, 06:47:27 PM »
Don't know where this fits, but why isn't there any accounts of jesus in heaven before he came to earth?

 :angel:

The problem is that before the New Testament, there was not the slightest hint of there being a Jesus. There are those who will point to various passages in the OT that allegedly foretell the coming of the Messiah, but these fall into two categories:

1: Those that don’t
2: Those that give conditions that Jesus did not fulfil.

There are those apologists who seem to ignore the number of times Yahweh had the chance to say, “Oh, and by the way, my kid’s up here with me.” And yet chose to say, “Thou shalt have no gods before me.” And other indications that there was Him there alone, including His name which means, "he causes to be" or "he creates." This causes a problem later.

If you read the OT, you will see that Yahweh has the ground swallow up anyone who goes against him. Jesus revolutionized the OT (basically Judaism) and, despite His saying that “not a jot or tittle of the law shall change”, He went about changing it wholesale.

Jesus’s place as the Son of God, and a deity Himself, albeit a one-third part of a deity was introduced to the Bible long after the Crucifixion; it appears as “The Johannine Comma” http://www.theopedia.com/Johannine_Comma
Quote
The Johannine comma, as it is called, is a sequence of extra words in 1 John 5:7-8 which appear in some early printed Greek texts (notably those of Erasmus), later versions of the Latin Vulgate, and in the King James Version of the Bible. See these words below in italics in the KJV and the same verse from the newer ESV.
•   "For there are three that bear record (witness) in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." -1 John 5:7-8, KJV
•   "For there are three that testify: the Spirit and the water and the blood; and these three agree." -1 John 5:7-8, ESV

[…]These extra words are generally absent from the Greek manuscripts. In fact, they only appear in the text of four late medieval manuscripts.


Apologists say that Jesus before He was born is mentioned in John:1 where it is supposed by apologists that “The Word” = Jesus
Joh:1:1: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh:1:2: The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh:1:3: All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh:1:4: In him was life; and the life was the light of men.


And here is inserted the Johannine Comma. (It does not appear in KJV1611.)
Some claim that this means Jesus made the World, whilst Yahweh simply “formed it”. (You work that out, I can’t.)

These bogus words then created the impossible situation where you had to believe that there was one god, but three “beings”. The Church tried its greatest thinkers out on trying to solve this problem, basically, the Church ended up saying, “Yes, it’s a mystery, isn’t it? It’s God, you know – we can’t understand him.  Oh, by the way, do you want to understand God? Well, let me explain…”

John’s gospel gets worse:

Joh:17:3: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
Joh:17:4: I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Joh:17:5: And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.


Yes, that’s Jesus talking as he dies on the cross, (but not saying the same things as he says in the other gospels.) You can see that 17:3 and 17:4 mark Jesus out as being separate from God, but 17:5 then says that Jesus was in Heaven with God before the earth was created and formed! So who was Jesus claiming to be? An angel? Just someone who had been touched by The Holy Spirit? Or did someone make up those words and place them in the Bible?

So, in answer to your question: Jesus wasn't in heaven before the NT although He was very keen on telling people what Heaven and God were like. But that is what Christians do, isn't it? They tell you what it’s like to be dead although they have never been dead.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 06:50:01 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online stuffin

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2013, 07:43:46 PM »
So, in answer to your question: Jesus wasn't in heaven before the NT although He was very keen on telling people what Heaven and God were like. But that is what Christians do, isn't it? They tell you what it’s like to be dead although they have never been dead.

Thanks and the bolded sentence deserves a Darwin. 


But I was really hoping to find out if jesus was ever a sperm that was ejaculated from heaven.

 :)
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Nick

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2013, 08:32:33 PM »
It was a Holy Ejaculation.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Hierophant

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #15 on: April 20, 2013, 02:35:35 AM »
There are just so many down sides to this birth thing. Yes, someone pointed out that Jesus was fully human, but supposedly he was also fully divine (however that works... 100%+100%=100%??), so what is the need? And there's also the fact that they had to tack on a divine rape... If we opine justly that sexual relations between a teacher and a student are unjustified because the teacher is in a position of authority, then a god impregnating anyone has to be rape as well.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2013, 02:46:12 AM »
There are just so many down sides to this birth thing. Yes, someone pointed out that Jesus was fully human, but supposedly he was also fully divine (however that works... 100%+100%=100%??), so what is the need? And there's also the fact that they had to tack on a divine rape... If we opine justly that sexual relations between a teacher and a student are unjustified because the teacher is in a position of authority, then a god impregnating anyone has to be rape as well.

yahweh was like, "look, I'll pay her dad the 50 pieces of silver, but I aint marryin her... case closed!"
Truthfully, there is no law against rape from yahweh, he did nothing wrong.

Offline Hierophant

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2013, 02:49:33 AM »
Of course a depraved being doesn't pass laws against its own depravity, nor accept that they are deprived. Sociopaths do not volunteer themselves for jail sentences. Or on a scale closer to God, Cthulhu is not going to voluntarily stop itself from driving humans crazy (although they both have suspiciously mundane vulnerabilities to modes of transport- God to iron chariots, and Cthulhu to power boats).

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #18 on: April 21, 2013, 08:08:45 PM »
Hierophant,

Why waste your time asking atheists questions. Look at the replies, not one has legitimately answered your question. Proves my point, atheists have no answers... just blah blah blah...

Offline jetson

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #19 on: April 22, 2013, 07:34:51 AM »
Hierophant,

Why waste your time asking atheists questions. Look at the replies, not one has legitimately answered your question. Proves my point, atheists have no answers... just blah blah blah...

Speaking of blah, blah, blah...I see that you are on moderated status.  I can only guess that you came to this forum with so many brilliant things to add, that the only reasonable option was to mute you?

Sounds to me like you are the one with the "blah, blah, blah" effect.  Good luck in heaven.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #20 on: April 22, 2013, 07:48:18 AM »
Hierophant,

Why waste your time asking atheists questions. Look at the replies, not one has legitimately answered your question. Proves my point, atheists have no answers... just blah blah blah...

Speaking of blah, blah, blah...I see that you are on moderated status.  I can only guess that you came to this forum with so many brilliant things to add, that the only reasonable option was to mute you?

When he first came in, he mouthed off to a whole bunch of people, then when a moderator asked him to "rein it in", he told the moderator what to go do with himself and sneered at the mod's user icon.  Subsequently, he was given a thirty-day ban.  He's better this time around, but as you can see, he still needs work.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2013, 08:16:29 AM »
If we opine justly that sexual relations between a teacher and a student are unjustified because the teacher is in a position of authority, then a god impregnating anyone has to be rape as well.

I think we've got him anyway;

Sexual Offences Act 2003

Causing sexual activity without consent

4  Causing a person to engage in sexual activity without consent

(1)     A person (A) commits an offence if—

(a)     he intentionally causes another person (B) to engage in an activity,

(b)     the activity is sexual,

(c)     B does not consent to engaging in the activity, and

(d)     A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

(2)     Whether a belief is reasonable is to be determined having regard to all the circumstances, including any steps A has taken to ascertain whether B consents


Luke 1:35

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

No question of asking for consent there...

Might be able to get the angel for soliciting as well.

Offline holybuckets

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2013, 08:25:06 AM »
Hierophant,

Why waste your time asking atheists questions. Look at the replies, not one has legitimately answered your question. Proves my point, atheists have no answers... just blah blah blah...

Speaking of blah, blah, blah...I see that you are on moderated status.  I can only guess that you came to this forum with so many brilliant things to add, that the only reasonable option was to mute you?

When he first came in, he mouthed off to a whole bunch of people, then when a moderator asked him to "rein it in", he told the moderator what to go do with himself and sneered at the mod's user icon.  Subsequently, he was given a thirty-day ban.  He's better this time around, but as you can see, he still needs work.
Proves my point, do have any intelligent answers to offer?

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #23 on: April 22, 2013, 09:15:07 AM »
Proves my point, do have any intelligent answers to offer?

Given the question "Why did Jesus have to be born?" do you have an answer to offer?

Offline Fiji

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #24 on: April 22, 2013, 09:29:46 AM »
But I was really hoping to find out if jesus was ever a sperm that was ejaculated from heaven.

 :)

In the quran, he sort of was. The holy spirit, who boasted being well hung, knocked mary up.
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Offline mango

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #25 on: April 22, 2013, 03:18:37 PM »
You can see that 17:3 and 17:4 mark Jesus out as being separate from God, but 17:5 then says that Jesus was in Heaven with God before the earth was created and formed! So who was Jesus claiming to be? An angel? Just someone who had been touched by The Holy Spirit? Or did someone make up those words and place them in the Bible?

Our best evidence would say probably not. I just looked in my critical edition Greek NT, and there are no variants at all that omit the passage. So, other than the Johanine Comma, it was almost certainly written in the original manuscript of the gospel according to John.

About the original question: There is often a connection made between Jesus' living life just like other humans without sinning that made him an acceptable atoning sacrifice. And in order to do that, he had to start in the same place as the rest of us. Just one idea.
I'm assuming you meant the question in good spirit of "Assuming everything else about Christianity, why is this so?" So I figured it was OK to give a theological explanation.

Offline Hierophant

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #26 on: April 22, 2013, 03:39:22 PM »
But sin is defined as disobedience of God. So whatever Jesus does, he can't disobey himself! Unless we could weakness of the will as sin... So if Jesus eats a chocolate pastry despite his own admitted best interests, is he sinning?  :laugh:

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #27 on: April 22, 2013, 04:30:30 PM »
What I was taught in my JW years was that Jesus had to be born and live life as a human so he could suffer and die. Pretty sadistic/masochistic, but there it is. And the JW's don't celebrate the bloody, painful, crucifixion like some Christians do, and that is one thing that made sense to me. They would say, why do you wear the instrument of our Lord's death around your neck as jewelry?

And the whole sacrifice thing-- who would not suffer and die to save their own family, let alone the entire world forever and ever, amen?

I would sacrifice myself for way less. World peace? End to child starvation? No more puppy mills? Universal health care? Rig up that cross and put me on it. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jag

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Re: Why did Jesus have to be born?
« Reply #28 on: April 22, 2013, 05:20:03 PM »
"Jesus had to be born and live life as a human so he could suffer and die." - and echoing from my childhood is this:  Wait just a minute, that's not an answer!

Asking questions about stuff  like this that used to get me in such hot water with the priest of the church from my youth. I would say things like "thank you, but I still don't understand. That doesn't really answer my question..." and go forward from there, wondering why they weren't answering what I was actually asking, but too well-mannered to ask any one question more than a few times, despite my sincere desire to understand what the hell they were talking about. It made no coherent sense and I could see that long before I had the language to explain why.

Once again, the fact of my atheism should have been apparent long before it actually was.
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