Author Topic: Boston Marathon Explosions  (Read 3719 times)

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Offline Brakeman

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2013, 06:24:12 AM »
And hot off the AP press, It appears kaziglu bey has nailed it with a win!

2 Chechen Muslims.

All winners please check your tickets..

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_CONVERGE_MASS?SITE=SCCHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-04-19-07-01-55
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 06:29:43 AM by Brakeman »
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2013, 07:12:33 AM »
And hot off the AP press, It appears kaziglu bey has nailed it with a win!

2 Chechen Muslims.

All winners please check your tickets..

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_POLICE_CONVERGE_MASS?SITE=SCCHA&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2013-04-19-07-01-55

Chechen teenagers?   Refugees, brought to the US by mom and dad, I would assume.  Unless their parents were killed by Russians,  who have killed a lot of Chechens in order to secure a pipeline that runs through their former territory.  The news says they are here legally, and have been here a few years.   

Muslims?  Probably.  First generation, Muslims, because their parents were raised in the secular Soviet Union.  But recent converts are usually the most dangerous.   

I suspect that they are not part of some organized network.  There seems to be no evidence of that.  Just lonely, traumatized kids, who probably found religion to comfort them.  One kid wrote on his facebook page that he had no American friends. 

It is very early, and I am speculating. 

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #31 on: April 19, 2013, 07:30:45 AM »
How are those the only options?  Motivated by religious beliefs, or somehow motivated by atheism?
But I never said that those were the only options. I merely said that one was the most likely, and the other the least likely.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline kaziglu bey

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #32 on: April 19, 2013, 07:44:23 AM »
1: This horrible act of terrorism was NOT perpetrated by an atheist,
This prediction is true.
Quote
and 2: This WAS perpetrated by a religious person.
It appears that the perpetrators are Muslim. This prediction was also accurate.


Quote
The right will blame this on Obama,
Tea Party Nation did in fact blame this on Obama
Quote
and there will be at least one preacher and one GOP member who will say that this is God's punishment for Massachusetts allowing gay marriage.
Which of course the Westboro Baptist church has done. So far, the only prediction that hasn't come true is that a GOP member will say that it was a result of Massachusetts allowing gay marriage. So far, 4 for 5, and it only took four days.
Seriously though... What would happen if the Great Green Arkleseizure didn't fram up the rammastam before the hermite curve achieved maximum nurdfurdle velocity? Now THAT would be something. AmIrite?

Offline Quesi

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #33 on: April 19, 2013, 07:54:48 AM »
How are those the only options?  Motivated by religious beliefs, or somehow motivated by atheism?
But I never said that those were the only options. I merely said that one was the most likely, and the other the least likely.

Absolutely.  But let's be careful to not re-write history today.  I'm watching the news, and everyone is trying to find Chechnya on a map.  I've worked with Chechen refugees, and heard horrors beyond conception.  I googled the testimony of one young woman I worked with http://www.csce.gov/index.cfm?FuseAction=ContentRecords.ViewWitness&ContentRecord_id=272&ContentType=D&ContentRecordType=D&ParentType=H&CFID=74886581&CFTOKEN=21428909 and found that it does not contain some of the more gruesome specifics that she shared with me. 

So, some quick facts.  A Russian oil pipeline ran through Chechnya.  After the collapse of the former Soviet Union, Chechnya became independent, just like so many other nations that were previously part of the Soviet Union.  The Chechens thought that if the pipeline ran through their territory, they had the right to tap into it.  The Russians disagreed.  The sent in troops.  Burned villages and cities.  In Grozny, every school, library, hospital was destroyed.  There is evidence that they set up incendiary systems, (think Nazi ovens) to burn the bodies of the Chechens and leave no sign that the individuals had ever lived. 

If these kids grew up in Chechnya, this was their childhood.

At the same time, angry Chechens, who had lived under forced the secularism of the Soviet Union, decided to adopt the religion of their ancestors, and embrace Islam.  I remember talking with Aset, (the woman whose testimony I linked) who believed that claiming Islam was part of claiming the cultural identity that the Soviet Union had attempted to strip from them.  She was a bright, educated young woman, who talked about a people attempting to adopt a religion that they genuinely knew nothing about, while living in a war zone.  But they really had no traditions.  They were making it up as they went along, like kids playing house or price and princess. 

If these kids grew up in Chechnya, this was their childhood. 

Of course, in the years after Aset escaped from Chechnya, there was an influx of foreign radicals, who provided instruction for the angry Chechen survivors on how to be proper Muslims. 

I just want to write this down.  Now.  Before the media creates a portrait of Chechnya that will eventually become part of our national consciousness.

Offline Jag

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #34 on: April 19, 2013, 10:24:54 AM »
Thank you Quesi. I appreciate hearing this from you, before tuning into what the media is going to tell us about Chechnya. You are, as always, the voice of compassion.
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Offline flapdoodle64

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #35 on: April 19, 2013, 10:59:56 AM »
Islam is certainly a violent religion, but so are Christianity and Judaism.  While a lot of the violent groups and persons from Chechnya probably utilize Mosques and Islam for networking purposes, I think the main motivations are political. 

In the USA, the civil rights activists of the 1950's and 1960's used networks of Christain churches, but there motivations and objectives were all political.  Many of the activists used the rhetoric of Christianity, but anti-civil rights forces never labelled their opponents 'Christian Extremists.'

Islam helps in networking and organization, but I think the the violence from Islamic groups is motivated by political agendas.  Certainly terrorism in the mid-east is motivated by Israeli oppression of Palestinians and by US imperialism more than anything else.  If those two elements were not in play in that region, there would be far less terrorism. 

I don't justify or excuse political violence from any nation or faction.  But in the USA, our government wants us to just blame terrorism on Islam, rather than having us discuss the complexities of foriegn affairs, and the fact that sometimes our own actions aggrevate international political trouble. 

Chechnya is a complicated mess with many villains.  And of course, oil is involved.

Offline Cutdogg

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #36 on: April 19, 2013, 12:12:59 PM »
Why does God hate Boston marathon attendees that stood next to finish line

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #37 on: April 19, 2013, 03:35:14 PM »
I saw an interview with the uncle of the kid who is suspected of this.  He stated he has no hatred but only love and respect for this country and doesn't see how views of terrorism came from his brother either.  This kid is still just a suspect, has not been proven or convicted of this crime even though it looks pretty likely he is one of them.  The reasons for what they are alleged to have done have not been stated - yet every one assumes it is religious. 
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Nick

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2013, 03:45:28 PM »
I can't believe they have not found him yet.  He can't be far away.  If he uses a credit card or his phone I'm sure they will pinpoint the location in seconds.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline shnozzola

Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2013, 04:02:52 PM »
CNN,MSNBC,CNN,MSNBC - back and forth.   I can't stop myself either.   The strange circus in Boston reminds me of Navy Seals storming the beach in 1992  Somalia, with their camaflouge paint, night vision goggles, and wet suits, walking up the  beach in front of the news cameras to a Heraldo Rivera type interview.  The world gets more bizarre every day.

http://articles.latimes.com/1992-12-15/news/wr-2286_1_press-corps

 - it reminds me of David Bowie singing, " and the papers want to know whose shirts you we - ar."
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 04:19:04 PM by shnozzola »
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Offline Nick

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #40 on: April 19, 2013, 06:42:01 PM »
Seems the drama is over.  Now it is just if he lives.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Nam

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2013, 10:32:59 PM »
It seems to be the most likely outcome. When was the last time there was an atheist terrorist attack?

i'm sorry, are those the only choices today: religious or atheist?  there's a wide range of people out there that bomb or cause damage for neither of those two reasons.

this time it seems to be based on religion but that doesn't mean next time it will or this time it couldn't have been. You stated an opinion as a fact based on very little information. Atheists tend to want actual evidence rather than just guesses even if based on past events. you skipped the process and went straight for the fact with your opinion as the basis of evidence.

Whether you're right or not is irrelevant based on that alone.

Quote
Atheists don't fly planes into buildings, or set off car bombs, or blow up abortion clinics...

Where's your evidence they don't? More opinions stated as facts. Wasn't there an atheist a few years ago who walked into a Holocaust museum and shot a whole bunch of people? How about the Chinese government (filled with atheists), or the former USSR (filled with atheists) or the North Korean government (filled with atheists), or the Mexican government in the 20's (or whenever, who were atheists) etc., etc., who massacred who knows how many people? Oh but they don't count, right? Because they don't do it in the name of Atheism but do it in the name of Communism/Securalism.

They're still atheists, no? So, to say they don't do some or all you list is just your opinion which you see as a fact.

Quote
Ask yourself an honest question

You first.

Quote
If, when more is known about what happened, and culpability is established, will you be surprised, for even a fraction of a second, if the person responsible is religious? If that is the case, as almost all terrorist attacks are, can we then have a grown up discussion about how religion encourages such violence? Or will the religious be allowed to sweep it under the carpet by labeling the person "Not a true Christian" or by saying that it was done "For political/social/territorial reasons", or by saying that the person must have been insane? Or will we finally be able to admit that religious people are the largest producers of indiscriminate explosions in public places, and start addressing this ghastly problem?

Irrelevant.

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2013, 07:14:02 AM »
I didnt know where else to post this, but this shit has been bothering me...

Here we are, the US, killing people all over the planet with our military and drones. How often innocent people are also left in the rubble and destruction. We write that off as collateral damage and keep doing it over and over. The general american public doesnt give a holy hell. But now we have this little Boston bombing, three people are killed, more injured (and its terrible, I'm not trying to trivialize it) and this doesnt leave the news screen, people are too horrified to even leave their homes. Theyre holding all these gatherings holding hands and singin songs together to try and make sense of it all.

WE CAUSE WAY MORE DAMAGE THAN THOSE BOMBS DAILY ELSEWHERE ACROSS THE GLOBE AND THOSE PEOPLE GO ON WITH LIFE

Personally it makes me sick to my stomach how self centered we are as a nation.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2013, 07:23:07 AM »
^^ I understand what you're saying there. Inspired me to start my thread 'Western diasters are worse'.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2013, 07:34:45 AM »
^^ I understand what you're saying there. Inspired me to start my thread 'Western diasters are worse'.
where is it?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2013, 07:42:24 AM »
"Chatter"

A few topics from the top.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Jag

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2013, 10:15:08 AM »
The general american public doesnt give a holy hell.

Personally it makes me sick to my stomach how self centered we are as a nation.

I think it's also true that the general American public doesn't even know in many cases what's actually going on. Yes, we're self-centered (as a nation), but to an extent, I'm not sure how much of the blame lies entirely on us directly.

We're spoon fed exactly what the media believes is going to make money. I don't care if it sounds cynical - media is business and businesses exist to make money. It's no longer the role of the media to provide information, the role is to make a profit for the shareholders. And f the cost of that profit is a stupid self absorbed nation, so be it. The shareholders will be dead before it really becomes a problem, ha ha bitter f'ing ha.

Several big things work against us. A poor primary education system that doesn't teach critical thinking skills, a political system that encourages us see ourselves as "the unquestioned best" without boundaries to best of what, the FCC lost the power to oversee content in the 80's(?) so we get more content that is limited in other countries (violence in particular), and no encouragement to think about anything whatsoever that doesn't directly impact us. There are many reasons behind the surface self-interest. Our cultural force starts with "me" and we've been taught to think that way - it gets us to spend money.

Yes, we can be really self-involved. But we have a lot of factors pressuring us to stay that way, and if you have few or no critical thinking skills, you won't even notice that there's perhaps a problems with all this.

Don't get me wrong, it really upsets me too, but there are reasons it is this way that shouldn't be ignored either.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2013, 11:06:27 AM »
The general american public doesnt give a holy hell.

Personally it makes me sick to my stomach how self centered we are as a nation.

I think it's also true that the general American public doesn't even know in many cases what's actually going on. Yes, we're self-centered (as a nation), but to an extent, I'm not sure how much of the blame lies entirely on us directly.

We're spoon fed exactly what the media believes is going to make money. I don't care if it sounds cynical - media is business and businesses exist to make money. It's no longer the role of the media to provide information, the role is to make a profit for the shareholders. And f the cost of that profit is a stupid self absorbed nation, so be it. The shareholders will be dead before it really becomes a problem, ha ha bitter f'ing ha.

Several big things work against us. A poor primary education system that doesn't teach critical thinking skills, a political system that encourages us see ourselves as "the unquestioned best" without boundaries to best of what, the FCC lost the power to oversee content in the 80's(?) so we get more content that is limited in other countries (violence in particular), and no encouragement to think about anything whatsoever that doesn't directly impact us. There are many reasons behind the surface self-interest. Our cultural force starts with "me" and we've been taught to think that way - it gets us to spend money.

Yes, we can be really self-involved. But we have a lot of factors pressuring us to stay that way, and if you have few or no critical thinking skills, you won't even notice that there's perhaps a problems with all this.

Don't get me wrong, it really upsets me too, but there are reasons it is this way that shouldn't be ignored either.

Certainly I understand that the media doesnt necessarily force us to focus on a lot of things, but I will give them that they report what I am talking about. I dont need the media to tell me to be pissed about the "collateral damage" from our attacks. They report that "so and so" was killed in an air strike, they show a picture of a demolished building in the middle of a city, it then becomes safe for me to assume unintended people died. And it sickens me.

Yes, we need to fix our schools to teach first and foremost critical thinking, and secondly ACTUAL history, not this bullshit they force feed us, and finally actual science. I think critical thinking would lead to the other two. But the info is readily available, in the media, whether or not they tell us how to feel about it.

Ignorance is only an excuse if information is not readily available.

Offline Jag

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2013, 11:16:40 AM »
I don't entirely agree with that, but can we tackle this in more depth a little later? I don't want to dismiss your reply, but I have much demanding my attention at the moment. I'll try to remember to follow up when I have some time to devote to it. This is a topic that really intrigues me.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #49 on: April 23, 2013, 08:07:45 PM »
Quote
Tsarnaev, who has injuries to his tongue preventing him from speaking properly, also indicated that he and his brother conceived the bombing attack on their own, and were motivated by religious fervor.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/22/17860373-officials-hospitalized-bombing-suspect-says-he-and-brother-acted-alone-motivated-by-religion?lite

Does anyone have articles about recent attacks anywhere in the world based on atheist fervor?
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2013, 10:11:45 AM »
Tamerlan Tsarnaev was "angry that the world pictures Islam as a violent religion."


When you get to the page below, do a word search (Ctrl F) for the word "violent" to see the context.


http://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/24/us/boston-marathon-bombing-developments.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
« Last Edit: April 24, 2013, 10:37:15 AM by Star Stuff »
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Offline LVMark

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2013, 10:26:15 AM »
I didn't know where else to post this, but this shit has been bothering me...

Here we are, the US, killing people all over the planet with our military and drones. How often innocent people are also left in the rubble and destruction. We write that off as collateral damage and keep doing it over and over. The general American public doesn't give a holy hell. But now we have this little Boston bombing, three people are killed, more injured (and its terrible, I'm not trying to trivialize it) and this doesn't leave the news screen, people are too horrified to even leave their homes. They're holding all these gatherings holding hands and singin songs together to try and make sense of it all.

WE CAUSE WAY MORE DAMAGE THAN THOSE BOMBS DAILY ELSEWHERE ACROSS THE GLOBE AND THOSE PEOPLE GO ON WITH LIFE

Personally it makes me sick to my stomach how self centered we are as a nation.

My first post ... so here it goes.

While I understand that some around the world feel that our military activities are directed against them and that we are killing innocent civilians, let us remember WHY we went to Afghanistan.  The Taliban was providing safe harbor to Bin Laden and providing a place for Al Queda to organize and plan attacks against the United States.  Every country of this world has the right to defend itself.  Our constitution requires that we "provide for the common defense." 

While it is great to be able to shoot down incoming missiles (and, I feel the military should continue to invest in technology that can do this with increasing accuracy and reliability), we also have to realize that incoming missiles are not the only way that we might be attacked.  9/11 showed us that.  A small group of people, given a place to organize and some financing, can do great damage.  It is a reasonable thing then, if the military has strong believe that a group is organizing like that, to kill them before they kill us.  A very practical way of doing that is a drone strike.  That puts our military at a minimum risk.

The people of Afghanistan can decide if they want to harbor Al Queda in their country.  And, in fact, many of them DO want to.  They consider Bin Laden a hero.  By doing so, they are putting themselves in harm's way, because we have a right to defend ourselves.  The alternative is for them to say that 9/11 was a horrible thing and that they do not want any part of it.  Don't provide safe harbor to those that would work toward another 9/11 plot.

Our military is trying to find and stop those that would do harm to us.  War is a messy process.  But, our military is not killing to make a statement, it is killing to accomplish a goal.  That is the difference between our military and the two guys in Boston setting pressure cooker bombs.

Offline Jag

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2013, 10:31:16 AM »
Star Stuff, I did as you suggested. All I can say is, in context, that's a bit of a jaw-dropper.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2013, 10:54:45 AM »
Welcome to the madness!

The people of Afghanistan can decide if they want to harbor Al Queda in their country.  And, in fact, many of them DO want to.  They consider Bin Laden a hero.  By doing so, they are putting themselves in harm's way, because we have a right to defend ourselves.  The alternative is for them to say that 9/11 was a horrible thing and that they do not want any part of it.  Don't provide safe harbor to those that would work toward another 9/11 plot.

Sure, but now put the US in every place you mentioned Afghanistan, put US military where you mentioned Bin Laden, and put any number of mid-east invasions and bombings and drone strikes and sanctions and etc where you mentioned 9/11 and see if it doesn't ring just a little true.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2013, 11:06:22 AM »
Our military is trying to find and stop those that would do harm to us.  War is a messy process.  But, our military is not killing to make a statement, it is killing to accomplish a goal.  That is the difference between our military and the two guys in Boston setting pressure cooker bombs.

First of all, welcome LVMark. We hope to hear more from you, even if I am going to disagree with you a bit.

The goal we have, of stopping terrorism, makes all the sense in the world. I can't possibly dispute trying to bring such extremists to their knees.

The problem is that the military is not always the best way to fight such problems. Right now, we have a bad habit of killing innocents alongside those that we think are guilty. We killed over 60 schoolkids in one strike a few years ago. We killed four in a strike earlier this week. We kill innocent adults on a regular basis too. And those that we kill because we wanted to may or may not have been guilty of being al qaida or taliban. So it is a very incomplete process that carries with it no guarantees of success.

And to add to that tactical problem, we have the one where, as we kill bad guy A, we create bad guys B, C, D, and E because we killed their wives or friends or children collaterally. In other words, if we are creating more enemies than we kill, then we are creating and endless loop of death and frustration.

Also, one of the big reasons we got attacked on 9/11 isn't that America is full of infidels, but rather that we chose to continue maintaining a military presence in the middle east, in countries like Yemen and Sadia Arabia and Kuwait, something that many muslims consider a travesty. Bin Laden, for instance. Acts like that by the US confirm in their minds that we are bullies, and that we need to be trifled with. Americans would not tolerate Kenya forcing its way into Kansas and Texas to set up bases to protect their wheat supplies. Why do we expect others to roll over and play nice just because it is us doing it over oil?

When we rolled into Iraq, one of the first things we did after the majority of the fighting was over was to hand the contract for providing satellite TV services to all of Iraq, a monopolistic contract, to ATT, an American company with no satellite TV experience. Iraqis were not allowed to compete. There was no open marketplace. And we made the new iraqi legislature mandate that all farmers would have to plant crops using only Monsanto GM seeds, which are sterile and cannot be harvested for replanting. Which meant that the farmers could set aside part of their crop for the next years planting. Such insensitivity, when combined with Abu Graib and other more obvious atrocities do not a good neighbor make, and for us to be either surprised or offended by those who disagree with our heavy handed policies is naïve.

The bomber brothers of Boston said (or at least the survivor has said) that they killed because they though the muslim religion was being falsely accused of being violent. Apparently there is no word for "irony" in that religion. But for us to make fun of their logic while we do our best to bomb our way to friendship indicates that we are just as naïve. Being bigger doesn't make us righter.

(Dante, you posted while I was writing this and managed to say the same thing in far fewer words. But I'll post this anyway to help drive our point home.)
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2013, 11:23:33 AM »
I think those boys were coached into what they did by a more mature guy.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2013, 11:34:50 AM »
I think those boys were coached into what they did by a more mature guy.

I suspect it was done by a less mature Internet.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Jag

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Re: Boston Marathon Explosions
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2013, 11:42:43 AM »
^^^This.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.