Apocalypse

[holybuckets]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

[lomolo]

Why would the entire world need to get together to destroy Israel? Seems like one press of the button would do the job just fine if it was a necessity.

Also, Israel was only made to purposely fulfill a prophecy. That it will eventually be removed seems extremely obvious too considering they basically plunked a flag down there and said "yes it's ours now".

[Quesi]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

Huh? 

Well, the Palestinians certainly hate living under an apartheid system on their ancestral homeland.  And a significant percentage of the world, including the Middle East, think that the marginalization of the Palestinians is unjust.

Does that constitute the "hate" for Israel that you describe? 

So Christians want to "blow Israel off the map?"  What does that mean.  You want the physical location destroyed?  Or does your god want you to kill Jews and Muslims?  Are you in favor of escalating the current situation in order to help fulfill the prophecies that were written in the region in an era in which everyone alive though the world was flat? 

Really?  What are you saying?

[Nick]

This kind of thinking is what gets Christians all excited down there.

[Tonus]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

It'd be fascinating to see the Bible actually predict something before it happens, though it'd be horrible if that prediction involved the suffering and death of millions.  But the book of Revelation does promise lots and lots of blood and death and suffering, so if any prediction was going to pass, it'd probably be something tragic and terrible.

[Dante]

I have a prophecy of my own. When Israel does go to war, or gets nuked by Iran, it will not fulfill the revelations prophecy, but instead be a painful reminder that treating people as 2nd class animals due to differences in their magic sky daddy is one of the most stupid things hairless apes on this planet do.

[Jag]

But the book of Revelation does promise lots and lots of blood and death and suffering...

And don't forget the dragons. If I'm alive when this happens, that's what I'm excited about. Dragons! How cool is that?

[wheels5894]

Yet, interestingly, it is the Christians in the USA that are protecting Israel - especially the Tea Party lot. They have US weapons and defence and, should Israel decide to bomb Iran, they would get USA help too. Surely if the end of Israel would be the end of the world Christians wouldn't want to do that but let the end come quicker.

[ParkingPlaces]

It isn't prophecy when people are working their asses off to make it happen. The guys in this country who are breeding a red cow to fulfill part of the prophecy: are they doing it because god knew they would or because god said that a red cow is a prerequisite so they're gonna make one? If it is the latter (and it is) then it is bull (pun intended) just like the rest of it.

[rev45]

And don't forget the dragons. If I'm alive when this happens, that's what I'm excited about. Dragons! How cool is that?

Dragons are cool but I'm kinda interested in the stars falling from the sky.  That is if I'm not one of the millions that will die due to the horrible pain and suffering that has to occur before Jesus makes a triumphant return.

[holybuckets]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

Huh? 

Well, the Palestinians certainly hate living under an apartheid system on their ancestral homeland.  And a significant percentage of the world, including the Middle East, think that the marginalization of the Palestinians is unjust.

Does that constitute the "hate" for Israel that you describe? 

So Christians want to "blow Israel off the map?"  What does that mean.  You want the physical location destroyed?  Or does your god want you to kill Jews and Muslims?  Are you in favor of escalating the current situation in order to help fulfill the prophecies that were written in the region in an era in which everyone alive though the world was flat? 

Really?  What are you saying?

Quisi,

As we stand today, this appears to be a valid prophecy, does it not?

[Graybeard]

Quisi,

As we stand today, this appears to be a valid prophecy, does it not?

No, not really - you have taken a few words and forced them to fit the situation. I'm sure the same, so-called 'prophecy' would have been a little more sustainable at the time of the Crusades.

I note that the Bible says nothing about some psychopath with a bomb running North Korea[1], which at the moment (although things will change) seems to be the greatest threat to world peace.

1.	because Bible god was completely unaware of the Korean peninsular

[wheels5894]

Yes, a prophecy needs to -

• Predict something in enough detail to identify it specifically when it happens. In other words, it is no good being vague and talking of war or bloodshed as this happens, sadly, far too often
• Must have the event decided upon before it happens. It seems obvious but we had Wayne here a while ago doing the opposite and claiming a prophecy after the event.

So far as I know, nothing  said to be a prophecy in any holy book has been specific enough to describe a coming event or to have been used to predict the event before it happened. Until someone can do this, prophecy, even people working to create a supposed prophetic event, do not count.

[holybuckets]

Yes, a prophecy needs to -

• Predict something in enough detail to identify it specifically when it happens. In other words, it is no good being vague and talking of war or bloodshed as this happens, sadly, far too often
• Must have the event decided upon before it happens. It seems obvious but we had Wayne here a while ago doing the opposite and claiming a prophecy after the event.

So far as I know, nothing  said to be a prophecy in any holy book has been specific enough to describe a coming event or to have been used to predict the event before it happened. Until someone can do this, prophecy, even people working to create a supposed prophetic event, do not count.

Thanks Wheels, but I believe you, missed my point. I said, in regards to the hostility in the mid-east, with  nations hating Israel, isn't it possible that John's prophecy in the Book of Revelation may have some fact to it? It is funny that all of you atheists dodge this point. You know as well as I  that Iran wants the nation of Israel destroyed. Here is a youtube video, and as far as I know, it is not Christian propaganda....

[kcrady]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

Have you actually read the Book of Revelation? 

1) Read the early chapters.  Notice how the book is addressed to several churches in what is now Turkey.  Those were churches that existed in the time of John of Patmos.  Then make a note of how the events of prophecy were supposed to be "soon" to come to pass.  Is 2000+ years "soon" in any sense that would have been meaningful to the congregations of those churches?

2) Read the description of the Battle of Armageddon.  Notice anything odd?  Like, the mention of massed horse cavalry on both sides?  How about the mention of kings of the Earth gathered to fight with Jesus?  What do you think are the odds of the United States, Canada, Mexico, Uruguay, etc. assembling units of horse cavalry and shipping them over to the Middle East to attack Israel in coordination with horse cavalry from other nations (the European Union, Russia, China, Thailand, etc.)?

"But it's all symbolic and esoteric and stuff!  You can't take it literally!"

OK, sure.  Then what makes you think it has anything to do with modern times, instead of being a symbolic description of the Jewish War of 66-70 C.E., or maybe an esoteric allegory of the conflict between tyrannical human authority (e.g the Roman Empire) and the Christian spiritual community?

[wheels5894]

You have a good point there - 'soon'. All the passages about the return of Jesus talk of soon. Paul even encourages his followers not to be bothered getting married as the end of things was soon. Jesus even talks of some people not dying before he returned.

Personally, therefore, I wonder exactly how Christians cope with the fact that soon never arrived. I know one can say that a god's time is different from our time though the passages give the impression that the time referred to is our earth time. Probably the lack of arrival of Jesus when he said he would come counts as proof that the religion based on him is false.

[Anfauglir]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

Kcrady's point aside, I have no problem with agreeing that the Bible "predicted" a big war to end all wars.

Know what?  I "predict" it too.  I know that men fight, so chances are that there may well be a big war one day that wipes us all out.  So at the moment, my predictions and the Bibles predictions match.....

.....at a score of 0-0.  BEST bit is, if the prediction actually comes true, there will be nobody around to say "oh, well done on that prediction".  UNTIL then, all it is, is a "maybe this might happen".....and so what?  Maybe it WON'T happen, too!  In fact, I change my prediction to "it WON'T happen".....and still, I'm tied 0-0 with the Bible for "end of world predictions".

Sorry, what was the point again?

[Graybeard]

Thanks Wheels, but I believe you, missed my point. I said, in regards to the hostility in the mid-east, with nations hating Israel, isn't it possible that John's prophecy in the Book of Revelation may have some fact to it?

No, it is completely impossible

It is funny that all of you atheists dodge this point.

Nobody is dodging the point. As I said earlier, you are forcing a current situation to fit words probably intended as a warning to the Romans[1].

You know as well as I  that Iran wants the nation of Israel destroyed.

Yes, but this does not mean that John the Divine was actually speaking about the year 2013, does it?

Why is it that all these arseholes, who pretend that some god has spoken to them, can never manage to be clear? You won't be old enough to remember the Cold War and how stupid people interpreted [wiki]Nostradamus[/wiki]'s so-called prophecies to suggest that the USSR would start a nuclear war, however, I do.

There have been stories of the end of the world since time began - they have all been bollocks. Your favourite mystic, Jesus, said that the end will come like a thief in the night - what's the matter, do you think that he was lying?

1.	and made by John the Divine, who obviously suffered from some sort of mental illness

[wheels5894]

Yes, a prophecy needs to -

• Predict something in enough detail to identify it specifically when it happens. In other words, it is no good being vague and talking of war or bloodshed as this happens, sadly, far too often
• Must have the event decided upon before it happens. It seems obvious but we had Wayne here a while ago doing the opposite and claiming a prophecy after the event.

So far as I know, nothing  said to be a prophecy in any holy book has been specific enough to describe a coming event or to have been used to predict the event before it happened. Until someone can do this, prophecy, even people working to create a supposed prophetic event, do not count.

Thanks Wheels, but I believe you, missed my point. I said, in regards to the hostility in the mid-east, with  nations hating Israel, isn't it possible that John's prophecy in the Book of Revelation may have some fact to it? It is funny that all of you atheists dodge this point. You know as well as I  that Iran wants the nation of Israel destroyed. Here is a youtube video, and as far as I know, it is not Christian propaganda....

Well, I don't think we have do to much here but to look hard at all the 'prophecies' of the end of time and the return of Jesus. What timing do these give? Yes, SOON. Soon relating to the writing of the texts - maybe 60s CE so soon would have to be before 100CE. Did they come true? Well, Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans whilst the Christians had  a very bad time in Rome under Nero. Yet, where was Jesus - returning in the clouds?

In effect, these 'prophecies' have had their time to come true - they mostly came true, apart from the return of Jesus - and now they are ancient history and nothing else. If Jesus wasn't coming back when he said - late 1st century - there no reason to think he might come back now whatever wars are fought. After all, ever since the bible was written there have been wars and rumours of war and that sort of thing.

Sorry

[jaimehlers]

In order to be valid, prophecies have to predict specific events at specific times and places, the more specific the better.  Therefore, the 'prophecies' in Revelation are much too vague to be accurate.

[wheels5894]

In order to be valid, prophecies have to predict specific events at specific times and places, the more specific the better.  Therefore, the 'prophecies' in Revelation are much too vague to be accurate.

as are the ones about Jesus' return in the gospels etc.

[jaimehlers]

It's like those astrological columns that are printed in the newspaper - they make general, vague predictions about anyone who was born under a particular Zodiac constellation, and depend on the human pattern-finding ability to make people think that they're actually accurate predictions.  But for the vast majority of people, they aren't; since they're nonspecific, they aren't falsified when they don't happen, because they could happen at some later date or time.  This is the same problem we get with Biblical prophecies - they make general predictions, but nothing specific enough to actually disprove them.

For a prophecy, or prediction, to be useful, it must be specific enough that it can be proven wrong.  That's how science works, for example; scientists make predictions based on things that they can determine in order to tell if they've got it right or not.

[Truth OT]

No question that Christians (not all Christians, Fundemental Evangelicals) feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

The best argument I can think of other than questioning the books of the Bible's verocity would be to state that the Bible makes no such prediction/claim about modern Israel!

[sun_king]

No question that Christians feel the world will end with the final battle being that much of the world will rise up and try to blow Israel off the map.  What are your thoughts and can you deny that the rest of the Middle East (or at least the Muslim nations) hate Israel? Isn't it plausible then, that the Bible may be correct in predicting this catastrophe?

Have you ever given a thought about the many events that happened in the last few hundred years that the bible missed predicting? Empires and nations rose and fell, they still rise and fall and you are still clinging to one troubled spot in the Middle East where a "prediction" will be fulfilled "soon". In short, you totally ignore everything the bible couldn't predict and hope to trump that failure with something that is yet to happen???

I always wondered how the bible missed mentioning the Mongolian hordes who once made the world's largest contiguous land empire or the two atomic bombs over Japan. What is this obsession with a small strip of real estate in a perpetually troubled Middle East?

And what makes a possible destruction of Israel as a nation a catastrophe? That is, what makes it more of a catastrophe than Afghanistan, Chechnya, Somalia, Iran or Serbia?

[jaimehlers]

What is this obsession with a small strip of real estate in a perpetually troubled Middle East?

Don't you know?  It's the only part of the world that they ancient Hebrews cared about.  They could have cared less about the rest of the world - it was just there for whoever wanted it.  So naturally, anything that happens there is going to be much more important.

[Astreja]

I'm still waiting for one of our deep-field space telescopes to spot that dragon that Revelation 12:4 speaks of... You know, the one that's supposedly going to use its tail to knock one-third of the stars out of the sky and send them plummeting to Earth?

Suffice to say that a prophesy of a bunch of mortals waging war on other mortals is rather underwhelming in comparison to being hit by 3×10²¹ gigantic dragon-propelled flaming spheres.

[sun_king]

Suffice to say that a prophesy of a bunch of mortals waging war on other mortals is rather underwhelming in comparison to being hit by 3×10²¹ gigantic dragon-propelled flaming spheres.

Lucky us that the stars are so tiny... imagine what would have happened if they were bigger, say the size of a small city. or even worse - bigger than our firmament.

... after irritating us with tiny pointy stars, the dragon will come down to devour a newborn.

[Nam]

Namgod predicts the world will end April 13 2013 at 12:23am. If it does not come to pass then you have to wait the grace period of 30 days but no longer than 10,000 years from said date.

It shall pass - Namgod has spoken.

-Nam

[Astreja]

Lucky us that the stars are so tiny... imagine what would have happened if they were bigger, say the size of a small city. or even worse - bigger than our firmament.

  I don't care how tiny they are, Sun_king --  3×10²¹ anything is a lot.

7.079 billion humans getting pelted with 3 sextillion stars = 423 billion "Ow! Quit it!  Jeeezus Christ!" per person.