Author Topic: God's God  (Read 524 times)

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Offline median

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God's God
« on: April 07, 2013, 12:41:50 PM »
If human beings must have some explanation for their existence (according to theists..."God"), then it follows that this "God" must also have an explanation for it's existence. How does God know he wasn't created? God can't know what he might not know (and his existence/nature cannot just be DEFINED into being), and therefore there might be a 'God above God'. But if a god's existence does not need explanation, then our existence does not need an explanation either. Therefore, God cannot rightly hold us in judgement for disbelieving in his existence - just as HE (supposedly) doesn't believe in any other God beside him!
 
 
 Please watch the following and comment.


 
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: God's God
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 12:57:53 PM »
Checkout this guy's attempt at refutation. LOL!

http://atheistforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1198&p=934644#p934644
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline The Gawd

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Re: God's God
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 01:42:26 PM »
ummm... I dont see the refutation

Offline Traveler

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Re: God's God
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 01:54:59 PM »
ummm... I dont see the refutation

Me either. Just the video posted on another forum.

As for the video, not bad. I wonder if it'll make sense to a christian, because this is one of the biggest holes in the whole omni-max god nonsense.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:57:34 PM by Traveler »
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: God's God
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 02:05:37 PM »
I like those dark matter vids... I always felt it would come to Jeffrey killing yahweh, you could tell he was sick of his shit.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: God's God
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 06:04:08 PM »
The explanation I sometimes see is that God is eternal. He just is and will always be. Of course, it does kinda blow the argument from design out of the water. I personally have never understood it. Why can't energy, space and matter be infinite? Why can't we be living in an infinite oscillating universe? If you're going to give yourself room to believe that there could be something infinite out there, why is the idea of something other than God being infinite? People like to claim "you can't create something out of nothing", quoted from a 3rd century Platonic philosopher, well wouldn't it then be more plausible that 'something' has always existed? Just that it has had an ever changing form. I'm not saying that it has always existed, but I would more readily accept an eternal universe than an eternal deity, because at least an infinite universe is based on something more tangible, scientists talk about a Big Crunch and we don't know anything about 'pre-big bang', which is kinda where the idea for an oscillating universe - or at least it's how I stumbled upon it.

It's kinda funny really, this argument is older than Christianity itself. Plato and Aristotle had two different opinions on the subject, Plato formed the Cosmological argument, which was later adopted by St Thomas Aquinas. The idea is that all things must have had a cause, therefore at the beginning there must have been an uncaused causer. By Aquinas's argument, it's God. More scientific Christians even apply this to the Big Bang theory.

Aristotle tried to debunk it, he on the other hand had an argument for an eternal universe.

So when you think about it, this damn argument is over 2000 years old. Jeez, when are we going to live in the 21st century. ;)
“It is difficult to understand the universe if you only study one planet” - Miyamoto Musashi
Warning: I occassionally forget to proofread my posts to spot typos or to spot poor editing.

Offline median

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Re: God's God
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 11:34:04 AM »
Oops, sorry guys. I posted the wrong one. Now there's 3 theists trying to refute the idea, here:

https://atheistforums.org/thread-18188.html
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Tonus

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Re: God's God
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 12:41:47 PM »
I think this response sums up the theist point of view all too well:

Quote
Our omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent God has always been, there has never been a moment He did not exist. I'm sure you find this difficult to comprehend, so you'll just dismiss it. I'm not saying I or anyone could comprehend this, it's that I choose to believe what He says.

In short: the existence of god is incomprehensible.  Some people will dismiss it, others will believe it.  But the ones who believe it are, in his mind, the ones who are right.  Nothing that follows from that can possibly make any sense.  But it's his belief, and by golly he's gonna cling to it for all he's worth.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: God's God
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2013, 02:38:51 PM »
Im no scientist,  but it never occurred to me to even give credence to the something from nothing because we dont have an example of nothing. Perhaps the default is something? If there was ever nothing there probably would still be nothing. Perhaps nothing is impossible.

Offline median

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Re: God's God
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2013, 01:14:19 PM »
Im no scientist,  but it never occurred to me to even give credence to the something from nothing because we dont have an example of nothing. Perhaps the default is something? If there was ever nothing there probably would still be nothing. Perhaps nothing is impossible.

Excellent point! Even according to religionists there never was nothing, as they believe there always was God. So this idea about nothing is purely mistaken. None of us think there ever was nothing (ex-nihilo). The credulous just continue their perpetual argument from ignorance.

Btw, it's getting crazy over here!

https://atheistforums.org/thread-18188-page-6.html
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan