Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 32676 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1015 on: May 13, 2013, 10:45:50 PM »
Quote
To Quesi,

I don't think trying to forgive someone that has hurt you is a tantrum.


I firmly believe that ignorance is curable.  The simple desire to seek knowledge is so powerful.

But when ignorance is wrapped in arrogance, the arrogance protects and nurtures the ignorance.   That leads to indignation and self-righteousness, and takes up a lot of emotional energy.  When we get caught in this cycle, we are often distracted, and it is impossible for us to accurately assess reality. 

June?  Why did you come here?  What are you hoping to get out of your participation in this forum?  Take a moment to really think about it.  Each of us is here for a different set of reasons.  Some to learn and to share.  Some, I suspect, come here to find solidarity with like-minded thinkers, only to be surprised at the diversity of the secular thought.  Some to find community.  Some to explore different perspectives.  Some are here to save lost souls. 

And you?  I think you are here because you crave attention.  You really want praise and support and comfort, (and I suspect you really need it) but if you can't get it, you are almost as satisfied with negative attention.  So long as you are the center of the drama.  I suspect that the content of a conversation is much less important to you than the level of drama that you can generate by participating in the discussion.  You zone in on minutia, missing the bigger points, often imagining yourself the victim, while at the same time, the one who holds the monopoly on virtue and righteousness.  You can be magnanimous in your pity for those who you imagine are attacking you, because you imagine that you are the "good" one, while the rest of us all fall short.  And that makes you feel that you have some sort of value.

The content of the conversation is really irrelevant, isn't it?  You could be talking about atheism or swapping recipes for holiday meals or making plans to co-host a social event.  The drama and the dynamic would be the same.  Wouldn't it?

So why are you here?

Offline natlegend

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1016 on: May 13, 2013, 11:17:01 PM »
Atheist: Invisible pink unicorns exist
June: How do you know?
Atheist: Because my heart tells me it's so
June: But without proof, how can you know it as a fact?
Atheist: I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong

Atheist: The moon exists
June: How do you know?
Atheist: Because I see it every night. Because there have been probes sent there. Because people have landed there and brought back moon rocks that are extra terrestrial. Because twice a year it passes in front of the sun

It's called evidence, June, and we poor mortals here at WWGHA happen to like evidence. In case you're wondering about what evidence means, another word for it is proof. Proof is a powerful thing. I could tell you that I have a dog made of solid gold that likes to bury shoes in my backyard but since I am am making the claim, I need to provide you with the proof. And the more ridiculous the claim, the more solid the proof needs to be.

So, claiming that there's a god that exists will require proof on your behalf. You can't point at the bible and say "There you go!", because I can point at a Harry Potter book and claim the same thing. You can't say "But I feel it in my heart!" because I feel things in my heart too, and most of the time it's empathy. You need to PROVE these things, June. There's no point coming to an atheist forum and saying "Whoooooo! God loves you! Come join us it's great!" and expect anyone to take you seriously.

All we want is evidence. Is that really so hard? Apparently it is.
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Online Nam

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1017 on: May 14, 2013, 12:40:19 AM »
natlegend,

Are you saying June is stupid? Take it back or she'll never forgive you!

(jk)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline natlegend

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1018 on: May 14, 2013, 12:49:20 AM »
Of course not Nam, I'm just trying to point out that red is not chartreuse.

 :laugh:
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline Bereft_of_Faith

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1019 on: May 14, 2013, 02:54:53 AM »
Atheist: Invisible pink unicorns exist
June: How do you know?
Atheist: Because my heart tells me it's so
June: But without proof, how can you know it as a fact?
Atheist: I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong

Atheist: The moon exists
June: How do you know?
Atheist: Because I see it every night. Because there have been probes sent there. Because people have landed there and brought back moon rocks that are extra terrestrial. Because twice a year it passes in front of the sun

It's called evidence, June, and we poor mortals here at WWGHA happen to like evidence. In case you're wondering about what evidence means, another word for it is proof.

We are familiar with the phrase 'extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof'.  The problem with believers is that they do not think their claims regarding god are extraordinary.  They believe that god is so self-evident, than even intuition, feelings or the most casual observance of nature supports their claim.  They cannot conceive of a general consensus among believers of over two thousand years, or a book that old (and older), or an observation of the (xian) world around them, could be flawed.  The sheer antiquity and the (appeal to) numbers argument seems to be more proof than any atheist should require

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1020 on: May 14, 2013, 05:38:50 AM »
You're only dishonest if you know you're being dishonest and I know you don't distinguish a difference.....

Is THAT why you are so scared to define what is acceptable evidence?  Because you are afraid that when you do you will have to admit how dishonest you are being?  Accepting one standard for yourself, but demanding something entirely different from anyone else?  That IS dishonest, Junebug, no matter how much you plead it is not.

What have I "demanded" from anybody? Wait I have too, I demanded someone to quit saying I was mentally ill.  I have lived up to that standard. 

So since I haven't demanded anything from you, your argument about my honesty is squashed.  Seems to me the only person demanding things round here is you.

You demanded evidence of John's socks before you would believe they existed, did you not?

No you asked me what evidence I would need.  I answered your question.  I did not demand evidence.  I knew John was a hypothetical example.  You are the one demanding evidence. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1021 on: May 14, 2013, 05:52:03 AM »
Quote
To Quesi,

I don't think trying to forgive someone that has hurt you is a tantrum.


I firmly believe that ignorance is curable.  The simple desire to seek knowledge is so powerful.

But when ignorance is wrapped in arrogance, the arrogance protects and nurtures the ignorance.   That leads to indignation and self-righteousness, and takes up a lot of emotional energy.  When we get caught in this cycle, we are often distracted, and it is impossible for us to accurately assess reality. 

June?  Why did you come here?  What are you hoping to get out of your participation in this forum?  Take a moment to really think about it.  Each of us is here for a different set of reasons.  Some to learn and to share.  Some, I suspect, come here to find solidarity with like-minded thinkers, only to be surprised at the diversity of the secular thought.  Some to find community.  Some to explore different perspectives.  Some are here to save lost souls. 

And you?  I think you are here because you crave attention.  You really want praise and support and comfort, (and I suspect you really need it) but if you can't get it, you are almost as satisfied with negative attention.  So long as you are the center of the drama.  I suspect that the content of a conversation is much less important to you than the level of drama that you can generate by participating in the discussion.  You zone in on minutia, missing the bigger points, often imagining yourself the victim, while at the same time, the one who holds the monopoly on virtue and righteousness.  You can be magnanimous in your pity for those who you imagine are attacking you, because you imagine that you are the "good" one, while the rest of us all fall short.  And that makes you feel that you have some sort of value.

The content of the conversation is really irrelevant, isn't it?  You could be talking about atheism or swapping recipes for holiday meals or making plans to co-host a social event.  The drama and the dynamic would be the same.  Wouldn't it?

So why are you here?

I wanted you to know that all believers are not the same.  That we all don't think you're condemned to hell.  That Belief can survive w/o religion. 

I get all the attention I need right here at home. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1022 on: May 14, 2013, 06:20:19 AM »
I think being compared to a pediphile is the lowest blow yet.

Your reading skills have failed you.  Nobody compared you to a pedophile.  There was a very long, very controversial thread recently about child porn that went on forever.  She was comparing the length and tone of that thread with this one.

I've experienced this with Junebug too.  She takes an analogy one might be giving, as a direct assertion about herself. This, coupled with the fact that the entire time she's been here, she's not displayed one iota of humility by saying something like:  "You know, that's a good point, I stand corrected, my position is mistaken." 

I suggest that this demonstrates that Junebug suffers from a massive, muleheaded ego, covered with a honey glaze.

Oh yes I have.  I have done that several times.  Since the basis for your conclusion is false so is the conclusion. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1023 on: May 14, 2013, 06:36:36 AM »
Quote


So why are you here?

I wanted you to know that all believers are not the same.  That we all don't think you're condemned to hell.  That Belief can survive w/o religion. 

I get all the attention I need right here at home. ;)

Ok.  So just to clarify.  Your purpose here on this forum is to inform atheists that your beliefs are superior to those of other believers, because those of us who don't believe in hell will not be condemned to hell by your superlatively benevolent deity? 

That is your mission?

How do you think it is going so far? 

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1024 on: May 14, 2013, 06:42:33 AM »
Atheist: Invisible pink unicorns exist
June: How do you know?
Atheist: Because my heart tells me it's so
June: But without proof, how can you know it as a fact?
Atheist: I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong

Atheist: The moon exists
June: How do you know?
Atheist: Because I see it every night. Because there have been probes sent there. Because people have landed there and brought back moon rocks that are extra terrestrial. Because twice a year it passes in front of the sun

It's called evidence, June, and we poor mortals here at WWGHA happen to like evidence. In case you're wondering about what evidence means, another word for it is proof. Proof is a powerful thing. I could tell you that I have a dog made of solid gold that likes to bury shoes in my backyard but since I am am making the claim, I need to provide you with the proof. And the more ridiculous the claim, the more solid the proof needs to be.

So, claiming that there's a god that exists will require proof on your behalf. You can't point at the bible and say "There you go!", because I can point at a Harry Potter book and claim the same thing. You can't say "But I feel it in my heart!" because I feel things in my heart too, and most of the time it's empathy. You need to PROVE these things, June. There's no point coming to an atheist forum and saying "Whoooooo! God loves you! Come join us it's great!" and expect anyone to take you seriously.

All we want is evidence. Is that really so hard? Apparently it is.

Nat if it was easy it would have already been done.  I base my belief on "reason".   I don't point at Bibles except to say, "manmade".

The point of this thread is not to prove God's existence but that believing is not a bad thing.  There are legitimate "reasons" for belief and yes believers do some terrible things but so do non believers.  My stand; it is not belief that causes the chaos but things like greed, ego, and fear.

Thanks for sharing.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1025 on: May 14, 2013, 06:51:03 AM »
Quote


So why are you here?

I wanted you to know that all believers are not the same.  That we all don't think you're condemned to hell.  That Belief can survive w/o religion. 

I get all the attention I need right here at home. ;)

Ok.  So just to clarify.  Your purpose here on this forum is to inform atheists that your beliefs are superior to those of other believers, because those of us who don't believe in hell will not be condemned to hell by your superlatively benevolent deity? 

That is your mission?

How do you think it is going so far?

My point is you don't need religion to believe in God.  That it's worked well for me.  No I don't think I'm superior just different. 

Do you think you are superior to anyone that you don't agree with?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1026 on: May 14, 2013, 06:56:23 AM »
The point of this thread is not to prove God's existence but that believing is not a bad thing.  There are legitimate "reasons" for belief and yes believers do some terrible things but so do non believers.  My stand; it is not belief that causes the chaos but things like greed, ego, and fear.

Yes.  And it is likewise not belief that causes the good.  Therefore belief is Not a Good Thing - unless you can demonstrate that Belief will ALWAYS have a distinct beneficial effect.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline natlegend

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1027 on: May 14, 2013, 07:03:45 AM »
It is likewise not belief that causes the good.  Therefore belief is Not a Good Thing - unless you can demonstrate that Belief will ALWAYS have a distinct beneficial effect.

Finally, back on track. Thoughts, June?
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1028 on: May 14, 2013, 07:05:37 AM »
I wanted you to know that all believers are not the same.  That we all don't think you're condemned to hell.  That Belief can survive w/o religion. 

I get all the attention I need right here at home. ;)

Quote
My point is you don't need religion to believe in God.  That it's worked well for me.  No I don't think I'm superior just different. 

Do you think you are superior to anyone that you don't agree with?

It has been shown over and over again that you do have your own man made religion. Why do you keep insisting that you dont? Simply not subscribing to portions of OTHER man made religions doesnt mean you dont have one. Your belief system is a religion whether or not anyone else follows it, or whether or not you give it a name.

Also the fact that you cant say your made up god is better than the made up god of Fred Phelps means that we should not pay any more attention to your god than his... although they are the same god.

And you have repeatedly dodged this point of mine: HOW DID YOU GET YOUR BELIEF OF JESUS IF YOU DONT BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE?

ignoring it doesnt make the problem go away. the fact of that question shows us what religion you are even if you deny it in words.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1029 on: May 14, 2013, 07:06:02 AM »
You demanded evidence of John's socks before you would believe they existed, did you not?

No you asked me what evidence I would need.  I answered your question. 

REALLY?  You actually said what evidence you needed to accept a claim?   By all means quote the post where you told me what evidence you would need, because that's been the whole sticking point of our debate.

I've asked you over and over "what evidence do you need to accept a claim", and you have refused to answer, again and again, so far as I can see.  So I would be absolutely delighted to be directed to the post where you answered my question as to what evidence you would need to believe in John's socks - or in ANY claim of belief.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Quesi

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1030 on: May 14, 2013, 07:23:16 AM »
Quote


So why are you here?

I wanted you to know that all believers are not the same.  That we all don't think you're condemned to hell.  That Belief can survive w/o religion. 

I get all the attention I need right here at home. ;)

Ok.  So just to clarify.  Your purpose here on this forum is to inform atheists that your beliefs are superior to those of other believers, because those of us who don't believe in hell will not be condemned to hell by your superlatively benevolent deity? 

That is your mission?

How do you think it is going so far?

My point is you don't need religion to believe in God.  That it's worked well for me.  No I don't think I'm superior just different. 

Do you think you are superior to anyone that you don't agree with?

Ok.  So to clarify.  The reason that you are here on this forum is to demonstrate to atheists that you don't need religion to believe in God?  Because it has worked well for you?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1031 on: May 14, 2013, 08:26:24 AM »
I don't think junebug can give us what we are asking for.  We have tried for 36 pages.  If she has not done it yet, she will not do it in another 36 pages.  I am sorry that there are questions left open.  I think she has done the best she can do.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1032 on: May 15, 2013, 07:13:24 AM »
junebug72 asked to put some final thoughts in. Since it is her thread, I agreed to unlock it. 

IT is unlocked for junebug72 only. 
Please do not post unless you are junebug72.
All other posts after this point will be deleted.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #1033 on: May 15, 2013, 07:35:35 AM »
Let me thank everyone for participating.  I commend you for being a worthy adversary.  You really gave me a lot to think about.  I hope I did the same. 

It is my stand that religion influenced by greed, ego and fear is the problem not belief.  I believe good beliefs will eventually defeat bad religions and prevail as accepted philosophy.  I read recently that the number of people like me is steadily growing, so there is reason for my hopeful prediction. 

Please Take Care,

Junebug
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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