Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing

[junebug72]

None at all. I feel it is not fair for people with diagnoses of mental illness to be treated in all situations, such as this one, as if they did not have a disability. They should be treated according to their pathology, fairly. Differentiation is key. I think people may be being to hard on you because they are not aware of a crucial element. Your misunderstanding is understandable because of the stigma attached to such illnesses. If you have a disability beyond your control, I do not think it makes you look bad, I think it has the potential to make those arguing with you look bad, however.

First of all I do not have mental illness. I am perfectly sane. Insulting comments make you look like a jerk no matter who the recipient is; it's just worse when it is directed at someone who is ill, which I am not. The nerve of some of you people, I will say I will never ever ever be one of you. You are more obnoxious than any Christian I've ever met!!!

Oh yea don't call me crazy again!!! Name calling is for CHILDREN!!!

I think this says a lot about your predjudices against people with mental illness - that you feel that simply asking the question is an insult.  As has been said, we HAVE had people here with mental illnesses - and, as is quite correct, we make appropriate allowances.

But you can't make assumptions - I think you were quite forceful about that? - and so, when one of the Admin team believes there is a chance a person has a mental illness, we ask.  Its not an insult, its not a means of belittling you.

You could have said "no", and left it at that.  What I find quite revealing is the extreme reaction you had to a reasonable question.  Like I say, that speaks volumes about your own attitudes to people with mental illness.

For what it is worth, I DON'T think you have any mental health issues, which is why I'm not holding back when speaking to you.  If I thought you did, I would be treating you in a completely different way.  Its called making reasonable adjustments - but we can't do it if we don't know there is a problem.  Hence, when we suspect there may be one, we ask.

Oh this is so childish. It's just another desperate attempt to rattle my cage. I see this for what it is. You know I have no prejudice against mental illness. I will however defend my own. Go ahead call the local authorities and see if they'll commit me or diagnose me with any mental defect.

[Anfauglir]

Then the statement "believing in god is not a bad thing" is meaningless, given what you have said here.

"Believing doesn't make you good or bad."
"Some people chose to do good, some bad."

Means that the two statements:
.     Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
and
.     Believing in God is Not a Good Thing
are equivalent.  One could summarise them by saying that
.     Believing in God is Neither a Good nor a Bad Thing - it is an Irrelevant Thing
at least according to what you have said here.

It is a meaningless statement because those two red statements MAKE it meaningless.  You've said that belief has no effect on what a person does - hence belief is meaningless.  Not just on god, no matter WHAT the belief is, it is meaningless. 

That's a matter of opinion. It's not meaningless to me. I have no trouble "grasping" your words, I just don't agree.

Fine.  Then please can you try explaining why I'm wrong in what I have written here.

How is it that "Believing doesn't make you good or bad" - but believing is nevertheless a positive thing?  If it has no effect, how can it be a positive thing?  Or are you now switching back and saying that believing DOES change a person?

Why can't you understand that it, being belief, is what you make it. Belief don't think and act on it's on it is conducted by the owner, not the other way around.

Right.  ALL those statements you have just made tally with the two up there that you made in red.  Belief doesn't make you good or bad, belief doesn't make you do anything, belief doesn't change you.  Belief does nothing to alter a person, is what you appear to be saying.  I can see why, because if belief DID change people, then you would have to accept that belief MAKES people do bad things.  But you are clear that belief doesn't make people do things, neither bad nor good.

And if that is the case, then the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is indeed true.  But equally, so is "Believing in God is Not a GOOD Thing".  In fact, it is an irrelevant thing, if it makes no changes, is responsible for nothing.

I would be happy to change my opinion.  Just explain to me how the assertion that belief never affects people, means that belief has any relevance at all?

Either belief changes people Junebug, or it does not.  Can you be clear which one you are asserting?

[naemhni]

Oh this is so childish. It's just another desperate attempt to rattle my cage.

No, June, it really isn't.  The people here who are asking about the state of your mental health are doing so out of a genuine concern for you, not because they want to roll their eyes at you and snort in disgust.  They've been here long enough to recognize, for the most part, the difference between people who are trolls, people who are stupid, and people who appear to have mental health issues.  Those who are asking you about this are trying to determine whether you are in that third group.  It's not meant as an insult any more than it would be meant as an insult if they were to ask about your physical health.  (Which is something of a quibble, really, since "mental health" is often, though not always, a subcategory of physical health, but that's a separate discussion.)

Please try to accept their concern for what it is.

[Anfauglir]

Oh this is so childish. It's just another desperate attempt to rattle my cage. I see this for what it is. You know I have no prejudice against mental illness.

No Junebug, I DON'T know that.  Someone asked if you had a mental illness.  You responded with by saying the question was insulting.  By using the word "crazy" (itself a predjudicial term).  Calling someone a jerk for even venturing to ask the question.

Much as you hate to admit it, you ARE displaying all the signs of predjudice.  Ask yourself what your reaction would have been if you had been asked "are you in a wheelchair?" or "do you have problems with your vision"? 

Are you expecting us to believe that if Pony had asked you "do you have any problems with your vision?", you would have responded with:

"First of all I do not have vision problems. I have perfect vision. Insulting comments make you look like a jerk no matter who the recipient is; it's just worse when it is directed at someone who is ill, which I am not. .....Oh yea don't call me blind again!!! Name calling is for CHILDREN!!!"

You have massively overreacted to a legitimate question made with your interests at heart.  Such a colossal reaction usually only comes when someone is accused of being or having something that they have a very deep-seated predjudice against.

So no: I don't believe you have no predjudice against mental illness.  Merely using the term "crazy" means you are prejudiced, let alone all the other stuff.  People with mental illness AREN'T crazy, Junebug.  I'd have thought that someone so touchy-feely and in tune with not wanting to insult other people as yourself would have known that.

[junebug72]

Oh this is so childish. It's just another desperate attempt to rattle my cage.

No, June, it really isn't.  The people here who are asking about the state of your mental health are doing so out of a genuine concern for you, not because they want to roll their eyes at you and snort in disgust.  They've been here long enough to recognize, for the most part, the difference between people who are trolls, people who are stupid, and people who appear to have mental health issues.  Those who are asking you about this are trying to determine whether you are in that third group.  It's not meant as an insult any more than it would be meant as an insult if they were to ask about your physical health.  (Which is something of a quibble, really, since "mental health" is often, though not always, a subcategory of physical health, but that's a separate discussion.)

Please try to accept their concern for what it is.

So desperate. Bring on your shrinks.

[naemhni]

Oh this is so childish. It's just another desperate attempt to rattle my cage.

No, June, it really isn't.  The people here who are asking about the state of your mental health are doing so out of a genuine concern for you, not because they want to roll their eyes at you and snort in disgust.  They've been here long enough to recognize, for the most part, the difference between people who are trolls, people who are stupid, and people who appear to have mental health issues.  Those who are asking you about this are trying to determine whether you are in that third group.  It's not meant as an insult any more than it would be meant as an insult if they were to ask about your physical health.  (Which is something of a quibble, really, since "mental health" is often, though not always, a subcategory of physical health, but that's a separate discussion.)

Please try to accept their concern for what it is.

So desperate. Bring on your shrinks.

Sorry, guys.  I tried to help.

[junebug72]

Right.  ALL those statements you have just made tally with the two up there that you made in red.  Belief doesn't make you good or bad, belief doesn't make you do anything, belief doesn't change you.  Belief does nothing to alter a person,   I can see why, because if belief DID change people, then you would have to accept that belief MAKES people do bad things.  But you are clear that belief doesn't make people do things, neither bad nor good.

And if that is the case, then the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is indeed true.  But equally, so is "Believing in God is Not a GOOD Thing".  In fact, it is an irrelevant thing, if it makes no changes, is responsible for nothing.

I would be happy to change my opinion.  Just explain to me how the assertion that belief never affects people, means that belief has any relevance at all?

Either belief changes people Junebug, or it does not.  Can you be clear which one you are asserting?

It is not that cut and dry and you know it.  We are all different. We process thoughts and information in billions of different ways.

Thanks you guys have inspired me to follow my original career choice. I am going to master psychology. See everything happens for a reason.

[nogodsforme]

junebug, you have gotten very defensive and even hostile in response to (what seem to me) straightforward questions and comments. I take medication for depression and anxiety, and see a therapist. Having mental issues does not make you "crazy" or a bad person.[1] It just is what it is. Like, I also have athritis-- does that make me a bad person?

Sometimes it is hard to interpret comments on the internet, because there is no inflection or facial expression-- and some people just don't express themselves well in writing. Is a post trying to be serious, or silly? Sarcastic or innocent? Hard to tell from the words on the screen.

I try to err on the side of giving people the benefit of the doubt. I take comments as straightforward and try not to read ulterior motives into them. Unless the person is really trying to get to me-- then I have fun getting sarcastic or silly back.

Now, people are trying to get you to clarify whether you think belief [in god] is a good thing or not. You have said that people do what they will, even when they believe in god. This implies that it does not really matter if they believe in god or not. Some people will be bad and greedy, some will be nice and generous. God does not have any control over what people do. Is that what you mean by "free will"?

The other point is the role god plays in the universe overall. Does [according to your belief] an all-powerful god keep the planet running, intervene in nature so the plants grow, the rain falls, etc?  Or did god create everything billions of years ago, and now just kinda kicks back and lets things happen, like the deists think? Does god do anything that actually affects everyday human life, like directly help people in trouble? Or is it that the belief in god, heaven, etc. in itself is enough to give people the strength to overcome adversity?

This matters to the discussion, because if you think that god actively does stuff, it would be great if you can explain how that happens and how we can tell. If it is only the belief in god that sustains people, then people could believe in anything at all, as long as it helps them cope. It does not have to be true at all. I could believe in Santa Claus or Satan or the spirit of the ancestors or Batman or Yoda. As long as it gets me through the day, as long as it works.

1.	Unless you do something like blow up a marathon full of people.

[shnozzola]

3:40

Debater 1:  Oh I've had enough of this.

Debater 2:  No you haven't.

[JeffPT]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/23/17878924-second-child-of-faith-healing-couple-dies-after-no-medical-care?lite

Why don't you ask the dead children what they think about faith in God being a bad thing? 

Oh right.  You can't.  Because they're fucking dead. 

Belief in God is a net BAD for the world.  Just because some people get good things out of it doesn't outweigh the bad things.  Surviving cancer can be an incredibly positive life changing experience, but given how many people it kills, wouldn't you rather get rid of it instead? 

[Ambassador Pony]

Thanks you guys have inspired me to follow my original career choice. I am going to master psychology.

How many hours of watching "science shows" on the history and discovery networks do you think it will take you to do that?

^ see, that was a plainly written jab at your pedestrian and flaky dim-wittedness.

I'd just feel bad if I read you wrong, and you had some sort of illness which causes intrusive thoughts and a general departure from reality. I'm satisfied that you're just not a person who values critical thought, reason, or any of the hard work that leads to a reality/fact-based understanding of things. That's fine.

But, now, I wonder why you're in a place where people do require those sorts of parameters to thought in dealing with the subject of discussion. You came to a gun-fight with a water balloon, calling it an apache attack helicopter only leads to the ridicule that will likely ensue.   

[magicmiles]

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/04/23/17878924-second-child-of-faith-healing-couple-dies-after-no-medical-care?lite

Why don't you ask the dead children what they think about faith in God being a bad thing? 

Oh right.  You can't.  Because they're fucking dead. 

Belief in God is a net BAD for the world.  Just because some people get good things out of it doesn't outweigh the bad things.  Surviving cancer can be an incredibly positive life changing experience, but given how many people it kills, wouldn't you rather get rid of it instead?

Maybe I should start linking to atricles which document the times when believers take their kids to hospital or the doctor.

Except I can't, because of course they're so common place that they aren't exactly news.

Exceptional stories make the news.

[Jag]

^^^You realize that this is their SECOND child to die due to not being given medical care, right? And that they were on probation from the first child's death, while allowing a second death from the same neglect, right?

In the case of these parent, it looks an awful lot like a pattern of behavior, not an exceptional event.

[magicmiles]

I do, but it doesn't invalidate my point, which is that the only reason this has come to be reported is that the overwhelming majority of parents don't act this way, believers or not.

[Jag]

mm, as you can clearly see, jb has been insisting for pages and pages that "belief is not the problem, greed is the problem." JeffPT provided yet another example negating that statement. Can't blame greed for this, so jb can keep her head in the sand, or she can accept the evidence that belief in God can and does drive some people to do awful, awful things. And sometimes other people, who did not have any choice in the matter, die as a result of those awful things. Because of god beliefs imposed on them by other people, people who had parental responsibility for the victims in this instance.

It may be the exception, but so what?

[magicmiles]

or she can accept the evidence that belief in God can and does drive some people to do awful, awful things.

Of course it does. But to the extent that one can argue beleif in God overall is a bad thing? I don't think so. Unless you want to claim that, say, following a football team is bad overall because some hooligans sometimes cause mayhem? Not a perfect analagy[1], but it serves a purpose.

It may be the exception, but so what?

Because paying undue attention to exceptions, in any circumstance or application, would have us too scared to leave our beds.

1.	because obviously football holligans are not justifying their behaviour on what they believe

[12 Monkeys]

Junebug,why do religious people do things that are contrary to the commands of their God? If believing was a good thing,we could use all people who believed in BibleGod as a shining example of how to treat others. But believers for the most part are not a shining example of how others should be treated.

 Believers have no real interest in others,only of the perceived reward from BibleGod at the end of their life,that is their main goal and interest.

 If it were the God of the Jews without an afterlife would you still even be a believer?

[Jag]

or she can accept the evidence that belief in God can and does drive some people to do awful, awful things.

Of course it does. But to the extent that one can argue beleif in God overall is a bad thing? I don't think so. Unless you want to claim that, say, following a football team is bad overall because some hooligans sometimes cause mayhem? Not a perfect analagy[1], but it serves a purpose.

It may be the exception, but so what?

Because paying undue attention to exceptions, in any circumstance or application, would have us too scared to leave our beds.

1.	because obviously football holligans are not justifying their behaviour on what they believe

Nothing personal mm, really, but I'm not starting this conversation over. If you want to know my opinion on this, it's well documented all over this thread. In fact, please go take a look at some of the links I posted for jb a few pages back. After that I'll address your point if you still want me to.

Here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24709.msg550577.html#msg550577

Fear, frankly, is a different topic. I'm willing to discuss it, but if so we should start a new thread.

[magicmiles]

Nothing personal mm, really, but I'm not starting this conversation over. If you want to know my opinion on this, it's well documented all over this thread.

Sweet as a nut, Jag. Sweet as a nut.

[Jag]

^^^Whoops, I was editing while you were responding. Sorry.

[JeffPT]

Maybe I should start linking to atricles which document the times when believers take their kids to hospital or the doctor.

If you'd like to make a counter point, you'd have to link an article that documents an atheist family rejecting hospital care for their sick child.  Good luck with that. 

The default position in modern society is that when a child is sick, you bring them to the hospital.  That action has a large statistical benefit to survival.  My point was that a certain type of God belief can and does sometimes make people NOT bring their children to the hospital when they're sick.  If they didn't believe in God, that wouldn't happen. 

Long story short... Christians and atheists and everything in between can bring their children to the hospital when they're sick but ONLY a Christian who believes certain things about God would choose not to.  How many times has that led to death?  A lot I bet.  That's just one reason why religion is a net bad for the world.  There are millions of others, including a picture my wife saw earlier tonight showing one of the Boston bombers smirking as he placed a bomb right behind that nice family who's child was killed by the blast. 

There is nothing inherently good that you can say/do/get from being a Christian that you can't say/do/get as a non-Christian.  Not a single thing.  If that was where it stopped, and there was nothing bad about God belief, then it would be completely neutral for the world.   But because there are a whole slew of bad things that you can say/do/get ONLY if you're a Christian, it's a net bad for the world.

 Doing a bunch of good things as Christians that people non-Christians also do regularly doesn't make up for the bad stuff.     

[magicmiles]

Maybe I should start linking to atricles which document the times when believers take their kids to hospital or the doctor.

If you'd like to make a counter point, you'd have to link an article that documents an atheist family rejecting hospital care for their sick child.  Good luck with that. 

If I did find such an article, it wouldn't prove atheism is bad any more than the linked article proves Christianity is bad. It would be just as much an anomaly.

The default position in modern society is that when a child is sick, you bring them to the hospital.  That action has a large statistical benefit to survival.  My point was that a certain type of God belief can and does sometimes make people NOT bring their children to the hospital when they're sick.  If they didn't believe in God, that wouldn't happen. 

And I completely agree. But I wanted to point out that it is rare.

Long story short... Christians and atheists and everything in between can bring their children to the hospital when they're sick but ONLY a Christian who believes certain things about God would choose not to.  How many times has that led to death?  A lot I bet. 

It would be interesting to have reliable statistics. We could look at the ratio of believers who don't seek medical help to those that do.

That's just one reason why religion is a net bad for the world. 

And it's the only one I was commenting on.

 Doing a bunch of good things as Christians that people non-Christians also do regularly doesn't make up for the bad stuff.     

Well, that would certainly be an interesting excercise. Quite a challenging one to try and accurately and meaningfully quantify. Maybe when I have a year or two to spare..

[Jag]

Well butter my buns and call me a biscuit, 18 pages, only to realize that we're arguing a variation of "One True Scotsman."

If a self-professed believer does good, then god beliefs are good.

AND, if a self-professed believer does bad, then it's greed and beliefs do not matter, even if the believer himself cites his beliefs as the reason for his action.

So, tell me, what if it's the same person, doing good things, and bad things, and citing god beliefs for both?

How do you tell the difference?

It seems that jb is more or less playing the "One True Scotsman" card, but in a way I've never quite encountered before. Interesting.

[JeffPT]

If I did find such an article, it wouldn't prove atheism is bad any more than the linked article proves Christianity is bad. It would be just as much an anomaly.

The point I made is that belief in God can, and does sometimes make people make choices that can lead to the death of others specifically because they hold that belief.    If you found an article that said 'atheist parents face charges after withholding medical treatment due to their non-religious convictions' then you could make the argument that atheism can, at times, lead to making choices that cause the deaths of others. 

If you asked the people who made the decision to withhold medical treatment, do you think they'd say their religious practice is 'an anomaly'? 

And I completely agree. But I wanted to point out that it is rare.

As long as you agree that sometimes Christians (and only Christians, not atheists) withhold medical treatment for their children because they think prayers work and medicine doesn't, then we're fine. 

It would be interesting to have reliable statistics. We could look at the ratio of believers who don't seek medical help to those that do.

What purpose would that serve?  Just because the majority of Christians are smart enough to understand that their God doesn't actually do anything, doesn't mean all of them are.  And the ones that aren't smart enough to realize it are the ones that watch their kids die. 

And lets be honest here MM.  Anyone who says that they believe in God, yet takes their kids to the doctor, looks both ways before they cross the street, and doesn't go 150 mph on the highway regularly does all of those things because they know, deep down inside, that God isn't real. 

Well, that would certainly be an interesting excercise. Quite a challenging one to try and accurately and meaningfully quantify. Maybe when I have a year or two to spare..

Just give me one thing, MM.  Name one good thing that God belief does for the world and then explain why that one good thing REQUIRES God belief and can't be accomplished as an atheist.   If you need a year or 2 to think of one thing, take your time. 

In the mean time, how many bad things done specifically as a result of God belief would you like me to identify?  I could give you a pretty good sized list from just the past few weeks if you'd like. 

The math is really simple. 

All the things atheists can do that are good for the world = All the things Christians can do that are good for the world.  There is no difference. 

All the things atheists do that are bad for the world < All the things Christians do that are bad for the world.  There is a major difference. 

So if all the good stuff would be the same whether someone is a Christian or an atheist, then the only thing left to decide is whether or not all the bad things that come along with being a Christian are equal to all the bad things that come along with being an atheist.  That's a loss for the believer side.  So it's a net bad.

You can say religion does charity work and it gives people a sense of community, and it helps people out, but so do atheists and atheist groups, and book clubs, and little league baseball teams.  The only novel things brought to the table by religion are bad.  They bring nothing new that's good.   

[Star Stuff]

FWIW:

http://whatstheharm.net/

[Anfauglir]

So desperate. Bring on your shrinks.

Because people without predjudice against mental illness ALWAYS use the word "shrinks".

Every word you type makes your predjudice clearer.

[Anfauglir]

Right.  ALL those statements you have just made tally with the two up there that you made in red.  Belief doesn't make you good or bad, belief doesn't make you do anything, belief doesn't change you.  Belief does nothing to alter a person,   I can see why, because if belief DID change people, then you would have to accept that belief MAKES people do bad things.  But you are clear that belief doesn't make people do things, neither bad nor good.

And if that is the case, then the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is indeed true.  But equally, so is "Believing in God is Not a GOOD Thing".  In fact, it is an irrelevant thing, if it makes no changes, is responsible for nothing.

I would be happy to change my opinion.  Just explain to me how the assertion that belief never affects people, means that belief has any relevance at all?

Either belief changes people Junebug, or it does not.  Can you be clear which one you are asserting?

It is not that cut and dry and you know it.  We are all different. We process thoughts and information in billions of different ways.

Exactly.  So belief CAN change people and make them act differently.  Not always, but it CAN.

Which means your statements that

"Believing doesn't make you good or bad."
"Some people chose to do good, some bad."

are false.  Believing CAN make you good and bad, it CAN affect your actions and change you as a person.

And if belief CAN change a person, if it sometimes IS resposible for making people do things, then your statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is NOT universally true.  Sometimes Believing In God Is A Bad Thing, as we have been trying to explain all along.

This is why we have so much trouble following your "argument", Junebug.  You chop and change your view every time you are pushed in a particular direction, to try to hold your worldview together.  What I find most amusing is that all through this thread you have been speaking in absolutes:

Believing doesn't make you good or bad
Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing

And you now have the audacity to tick me off with "its not that cut and dried"?  Exactly.  It isn't.

Sometimes belief is good, sometimes it is bad.  Can we agree on that, or are you now going to go back to your absolute that belief is never a bad thing?

[junebug72]

Oh this is so childish. It's just another desperate attempt to rattle my cage. I see this for what it is. You know I have no prejudice against mental illness.

No Junebug, I DON'T know that.  Someone asked if you had a mental illness.  You responded with by saying the question was insulting.  By using the word "crazy" (itself a predjudicial term).  Calling someone a jerk for even venturing to ask the question.

Much as you hate to admit it, you ARE displaying all the signs of predjudice.  Ask yourself what your reaction would have been if you had been asked "are you in a wheelchair?" or "do you have problems with your vision"? 

Are you expecting us to believe that if Pony had asked you "do you have any problems with your vision?", you would have responded with:

"First of all I do not have vision problems. I have perfect vision. Insulting comments make you look like a jerk no matter who the recipient is; it's just worse when it is directed at someone who is ill, which I am not. .....Oh yea don't call me blind again!!! Name calling is for CHILDREN!!!"

You have massively overreacted to a legitimate question made with your interests at heart.  Such a colossal reaction usually only comes when someone is accused of being or having something that they have a very deep-seated predjudice against.

So no: I don't believe you have no predjudice against mental illness.  Merely using the term "crazy" means you are prejudiced, let alone all the other stuff.  People with mental illness AREN'T crazy, Junebug.  I'd have thought that someone so touchy-feely and in tune with not wanting to insult other people as yourself would have known that.

Well if you don't know that I don't, you don't know that I do either. Boo ya. Matter of fact you don't know me at all.

The only thing I'm prejudice against is prejudice and greed. If you knew me you would know this. It doesn't even make sense to say I'm touchy-feely and prejudice at the same time. You should get that checked out.

[junebug72]

Right.  ALL those statements you have just made tally with the two up there that you made in red.  Belief doesn't make you good or bad, belief doesn't make you do anything, belief doesn't change you.  Belief does nothing to alter a person,   I can see why, because if belief DID change people, then you would have to accept that belief MAKES people do bad things.  But you are clear that belief doesn't make people do things, neither bad nor good.

And if that is the case, then the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is indeed true.  But equally, so is "Believing in God is Not a GOOD Thing".  In fact, it is an irrelevant thing, if it makes no changes, is responsible for nothing.

I would be happy to change my opinion.  Just explain to me how the assertion that belief never affects people, means that belief has any relevance at all?

Either belief changes people Junebug, or it does not.  Can you be clear which one you are asserting?

It is not that cut and dry and you know it.  We are all different. We process thoughts and information in billions of different ways.

Exactly.  So belief CAN change people and make them act differently.  Not always, but it CAN.

Which means your statements that

"Believing doesn't make you good or bad."
"Some people chose to do good, some bad."

are false.  Believing CAN make you good and bad, it CAN affect your actions and change you as a person.

And if belief CAN change a person, if it sometimes IS resposible for making people do things, then your statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is NOT universally true.  Sometimes Believing In God Is A Bad Thing, as we have been trying to explain all along.

This is why we have so much trouble following your "argument", Junebug.  You chop and change your view every time you are pushed in a particular direction, to try to hold your worldview together.  What I find most amusing is that all through this thread you have been speaking in absolutes:

Believing doesn't make you good or bad
Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing

And you now have the audacity to tick me off with "its not that cut and dried"?  Exactly.  It isn't.

Sometimes belief is good, sometimes it is bad.  Can we agree on that, or are you now going to go back to your absolute that belief is never a bad thing?

The only thing "bad" about belief is how it is used by greed. Greed takes advantage of belief. That's my belief and I'm sticking to it. Greed is the enemy not belief. Belief is like breathing or your heartbeat, your brain just has to think about it, even when we were little baby humans just starting out, the brain thought God. Thank you God for this beautiful existence, this HONOR.  Then religion comes along, they needed a  way to control the populating species. Without religion, or shall we say rules, Belief is no more than your thoughts on how we come to be, religion my friends can be very bad, but belief is not a bad thing.

If you know this why do you keep trying to make it so? Why does it "tick" you off? You asked me for a yes or no and you admit here you know it's not possible. You're just playing games.