Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 38737 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #464 on: April 22, 2013, 03:04:34 PM »
Since our junebug seems to believes that her subjective and baseless opinions deserve more credit that experts in their field, I respectfully submit the following link: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/21/study-finds-belief-in-free-market-economics-predicts-rejection-of-science/

And here is the link to the abstract of the study being referenced: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/03/25/0956797612457686.abstract

Now jb, please go take a look and then come back and tell me again that beliefs are not the root cause of the problems we've been discussing. God beliefs do not get a separate special and distinct consideration that defies every study ever conducted on how people behave and why, just because you want to keep your utterly subjective world view intact. Hold on to your belief that God is treating you well, but for the love of truth, stop insisting that those beliefs doesn't cause all kinds of problems because it doesn't seem to have that exact effect on YOU.

You are not representative of the entirety of believers, you represent a portion of them. YOUR beliefs may be mostly harmless to others, but that's been repeatedly demonstrated to be a false idea when you try to apply it to all other believers.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2013, 05:02:30 PM by Jag »
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #465 on: April 23, 2013, 04:44:07 AM »
junebug, here's something to consider.  Let's take two people who do the same thing - say, feeding a starving child, for the sake of argument.  One does it because they believe that's what their god wants them to do, and the other does it because they want to ease the suffering of a fellow human being.  Which one was morally superior?

There's no 'gotcha' in this question.  I simply want to know what you think the answer is.  Once you've answered, I'll elaborate.

I think they are equal. It doesn't matter what motivates you to do moral deeds, it's that you do them that counts!

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #466 on: April 23, 2013, 05:02:44 AM »
Agreed JB, fear is a bad thing but its still no reason to make stuff up.

Have you ever been afraid for your life? I would argue that fear causes people to do all kinds of crazy things. I mean just look at Dooms Day Preppers 1 time, those people practice drinking pee just in case. I would think most studies on the subject will back up what I'm saying here. 

I think it is obvious that we all handle our fears in different ways. Some people overcome them, others succomb.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #467 on: April 23, 2013, 05:21:17 AM »

Then the statement "believing in god is not a bad thing" is meaningless, given what you have said here.

"Believing doesn't make you good or bad."
"Some people chose to do good, some bad."


Means that the two statements:
.     Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
and
.     Believing in God is Not a Good Thing
are equivalent.  One could summarise them by saying that
.     Believing in God is Neither a Good nor a Bad Thing - it is an Irrelevant Thing
at least according to what you have said here.

I don't think it's meaningless at all. To say it's neither good or bad is a very progressive idea.

It is a meaningless statement because those two red statements MAKE it meaningless.  You've said that belief has no effect on what a person does - hence belief is meaningless.  Not just on god, no matter WHAT the belief is, it is meaningless. 

It would be progressive if I actually agreed with it - I don't.  I strongly disagree with the statement.  What I was trying to get you to grasp is that if you believe - as you have stated here - that "Believing doesn't make you good or bad", that believing does not change a person.....then the statement you made in the OP has no validity, makes no sense, is not worth making.

That's a matter of opinion. It's not meaningless to me. I have no trouble "grasping" your words, I just don't agree, I think you know how that feels, you don't agree with me either.

I think it proves that it's not belief that is at the root of human suffering, so your time might be better spent fighting GREED, the real enemy.  We don't have to agree on beliefs to work together to fight Greed!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #468 on: April 23, 2013, 05:28:54 AM »
I think it proves that it's not belief that is at the root of human suffering, so your time might be better spent fighting GREED, the real enemy.  We don't have to agree on beliefs to work together to fight Greed!

Do you think that people will be less inclined to fight greed if they believe that everyone will get what's coming to them in the end via the "judgement"?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #469 on: April 23, 2013, 05:45:08 AM »
God has never helped me find my car keys. You show me these pictures and I say to you I see mankind's failure to God.

I have heard this callous argument 1000s of times. "Ooo God loves everyone. He wouldn't let African children die." But He does, doesn't he? Parts of Africa have more christians per head than the USA - but God still hates them.

So what does God do? I mean, what's his purpose? Why, despite prayers of crying mothers, do children die like this in their hundreds? And you believe in that god?


I think it's mankind doing the hating. It is mankind's responsibility to change. Mankind needs to learn from the mistakes we make.

I think God keeps balance in the universe and protects Mother Earth. God's purpose I would describe as Life. God has given us free will along with that life in order to deserve the knowledge and freedom that's offered in the afterlife.

Here's a question for you. Would you really prefer to not have free will and be just a puppet on a string, every choice, every action dictated by God?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #470 on: April 23, 2013, 06:05:41 AM »
Hey, Junebug, what's the illuminati, and are they real?

The only time I heard of illuminati is from the movie "The Davinci Code."

hmm. One more question: have you ever been prescribed medication for mental illness of any kind?

I am aware of the stigma concerning mental illness, and it is completely understandable if you choose not to respond to that question. However, I think it may have some bearing on this discussion.

So now I see where the mods get it from. Your sarcasm is more successful at making you look bad. Perfect example of how bad leadership can spoil the whole bunch. How is what you're doing here ANY different from what you claim to be against. Talk about a double standard!

None at all. I feel it is not fair for people with diagnoses of mental illness to be treated in all situations, such as this one, as if they did not have a disability. They should be treated according to their pathology, fairly. Differentiation is key. I think people may be being to hard on you because they are not aware of a crucial element. Your misunderstanding is understandable because of the stigma attached to such illnesses. If you have a disability beyond your control, I do not think it makes you look bad, I think it has the potential to make those arguing with you look bad, however. 

You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #471 on: April 23, 2013, 06:17:18 AM »
Why are beliefs so important to you, or at least important enough to want to keep them intact?

I am preparing my spirit for the afterlife. I want to know why I am here. You know the reason for it all. I have said before I would give it up if I thought it would save mankind but I believe quite the opposite. I believe mankind needs to realize we need to evolve our knowledge of God and that we can't rely on 1 book to do that. That our chances of understanding will be increased 100 times if we combine our energy instead of divide it with religions.
And if god does not exist, how beneficial is that use of energy in evolving our knowledge of god?

What I take issue with is when you say that you want to keep your beliefs intact.  Wouldn't it be better to, rather than keeping beliefs intact, striving to assure what you believe is true?  It just seems a little backwards to me is all; if I have belief X, do I try to hold onto belief X, or do I try to continually determine if it makes sense to have belief X?

I think I finally have an answer to your original question based on this.  If 'believing in god' in anyway enables you to ascribe an inherent virtue in belief then it is a bad thing.  There is virtue in being able to believe things; there is virtue in allowing others to have other beliefs; there is no virtue in a belief itself.

Have I not said I would give up belief to help my fellow man. Would you?Could you? You believe something too. Will you give up your belief? You can't just give up belief. I would give it an honest try but I wouldn't believe it. I could try but for some reason I don't think I could believe myself. Have you ever tried to lie to yourself, I bet it doesn't work very well. Maybe we needed just a little bit more of something during that Big Blast. Maybe the Big Blast should have made us more alike, more giving, more aware of where we come from, then we'd all get along. Either way we have free will to do with our thoughts and feelings what we want. Heck we're lucky we got a conscience and any intelligence at all, what more do you want. I mean this is just a big accident, right?

See this is what I mean when I say belief "can" help. When you have trust in God it makes sense and it "can" bring you peace of mind. Belief gives me hope in mankind in contrast to Luck. I do not like to leave things up to "luck." I am not a lucky person. I've had to work for everything I got and I'm not just talking about material things. I am Thankful for what I got, why would I feel thankful if there's noone to thank? 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #472 on: April 23, 2013, 06:33:31 AM »
Hey, Junebug, what's the illuminati, and are they real?

The only time I heard of illuminati is from the movie "The Davinci Code."

hmm. One more question: have you ever been prescribed medication for mental illness of any kind?

I am aware of the stigma concerning mental illness, and it is completely understandable if you choose not to respond to that question. However, I think it may have some bearing on this discussion.

So now I see where the mods get it from. Your sarcasm is more successful at making you look bad. Perfect example of how bad leadership can spoil the whole bunch. How is what you're doing here ANY different from what you claim to be against. Talk about a double standard!

None at all. I feel it is not fair for people with diagnoses of mental illness to be treated in all situations, such as this one, as if they did not have a disability. They should be treated according to their pathology, fairly. Differentiation is key. I think people may be being to hard on you because they are not aware of a crucial element. Your misunderstanding is understandable because of the stigma attached to such illnesses. If you have a disability beyond your control, I do not think it makes you look bad, I think it has the potential to make those arguing with you look bad, however.

First of all I do not have mental illness. I am perfectly sane. Insulting comments make you look like a jerk no matter who the recipient is; it's just worse when it is directed at someone who is ill, which I am not. The nerve of some of you people, I will say I will never ever ever be one of you. You are more obnoxious than any Christian I've ever met!!!

Oh yea don't call me crazy again!!! Name calling is for CHILDREN!!!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #473 on: April 23, 2013, 06:52:34 AM »
the worst thing democracy has done is to make people think their OPINIONS are actually worth something. It makes people think their ignorance on a topic is equal to someone elses KNOWLEDGE, because theyre entitled to their opinion. JB,  the statement in red Anfauglir is referring to is not a statement of opinion any more than 2+2 = 4 is a statement of opinion. You have to understand that if we are going to get anywhere here.

The statement as written makes belief in god worthless in that belief has no effect what-so-ever. The statement was YOUR statement. Now if you disagree with your own statement then you should clarify that and say what you meant to say, but dont forget to provide evidence for whatever your stance is. Your opinion isnt evidence, as various people have shown through studies that your opinions have been wrong, and thus opinions on statements of fact are of little value.

You may have the opinion that 2+2=5, just because its your opinion doesnt make it right, nor do I even have to entertain or respect the notion.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #474 on: April 23, 2013, 06:55:14 AM »

[/quote]
I am doing what I can Jag. I mean think about what you're saying.
I AM thinking about what I'm saying jb, and all indication are that you are not. I've put several hours of my time into researching and writing the posts I've contributed to this topic. And you appear to have dismissed almost all of it with  "boohoo, people are mean but it's not their beliefs that make it so" - in what other circumstances would you try to say something so blatantly stupid? What is it you think motivates people, if not their beliefs? The bolded statements are for emphasis jb, not anger. And the last is a question I actually want you to answer please.

I am not crying Jag I'm just calling it like I see it and the people I'm talking about is you and your friends. The only emotion I have for you is empathy. Maybe you should do some research on me before you make such accusations.

Greed and fear. Greed and fear.

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I don't possess the right anything to be taken seriously as a local candidate much less President of the United States.
Quote
I'm not sure what you are trying to suggest here. but I'm going to go with - so what? You don't need to be the president to get out of the way of progress on human rights, and you will be taken as seriously as your ideas merit. If everyone contributes baby-step sized contributions, that's still progress.

How about you get out of my way!!!

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I have changed the minds of my family, and trust me that has not been an easy task, and others that I have encountered in my life. So Forgive if I'm offended by that remark.
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If you are offended, you missed my point entirely. Again.

Oh well! You have missed my point as well.

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There are a lot of believers out there doing, not waiting on prayer. Perhaps your judgement has been clouded by your hatred for belief. Do you really need some links to see all the action, if so I'll get you some. You're so focused on seeing belief as bad that you don't see the good.
Quote
There are also a lot of non-believers out there, not waiting on anything, myself among them. I'm well aware that believers do good things, I do volunteer work with lots of them. I don't have anything against believers - provided that their beliefs are not being imposed on other people. You will do well to learn to distinguish anger at situations caused by people and their mistaken ideas and anger at individuals. I freely admit to the first, and reject the second, at least in relation to this topic. You are not "hearing" me; you are filtering my words to fit your ideas, not the other way around.

Make up your mind.

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I'm going to say here again that GREED is the enemy...
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Qualified agreement, as already explained repeatedly.

ditto

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... not BELIEF. Greed is what manipulates religion for profit. Greed causes poverty, poverty causes desperation, desperation causes violence. Greed is the enemy.
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Greed would have far less influence if believers didn't keep getting the message that they are the special-est special snowflake of all, especially since they all seem to think that the special-est special snowflake label only applies to others who share their exact same beliefs.



If you truly fail to grasp basic human nature so completely, I really wonder how you have survived to adulthood. The depths of your naivete are astounding.

If you wonder how I survived to adulthood you are failing to understand human nature as well, I would argue that I understand it better than you do.

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GREED IS A BAD THING.
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Well, duh.

If you agree then why are you making your focus belief. It is Greed that is our enemy not belief.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 06:57:28 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #475 on: April 23, 2013, 06:58:42 AM »
the worst thing democracy has done is to make people think their OPINIONS are actually worth something. It makes people think their ignorance on a topic is equal to someone elses KNOWLEDGE, because theyre entitled to their opinion. JB,  the statement in red Anfauglir is referring to is not a statement of opinion any more than 2+2 = 4 is a statement of opinion. You have to understand that if we are going to get anywhere here.

The statement as written makes belief in god worthless in that belief has no effect what-so-ever. The statement was YOUR statement. Now if you disagree with your own statement then you should clarify that and say what you meant to say, but dont forget to provide evidence for whatever your stance is. Your opinion isnt evidence, as various people have shown through studies that your opinions have been wrong, and thus opinions on statements of fact are of little value.

You may have the opinion that 2+2=5, just because its your opinion doesnt make it right, nor do I even have to entertain or respect the notion.

I'll have to get to this later. gotta go for now.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #476 on: April 23, 2013, 07:04:38 AM »
God has never helped me find my car keys. You show me these pictures and I say to you I see mankind's failure to God.

I have heard this callous argument 1000s of times. "Ooo God loves everyone. He wouldn't let African children die." But He does, doesn't he? Parts of Africa have more christians per head than the USA - but God still hates them.

So what does God do? I mean, what's his purpose? Why, despite prayers of crying mothers, do children die like this in their hundreds? And you believe in that god?

I think it's mankind doing the hating. It is mankind's responsibility to change. Mankind needs to learn from the mistakes we make.

I happen to agree with you that it is the result of mankind's negligence. The parents of that child gave birth to him although the land would not support his survival.  Jesus, however, thought differently:

M't:10:29: Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
M't:10:31: Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Lu:12:6: Are not five sparrows sold for two farthings, and not one of them is forgotten before God?
Lu:12:7: But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows.


Apart from the fact that the market price of sparrows has fallen, see how it is suggested that God values us more than sparrows. Was Jesus lying or is there no god?

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I think God keeps balance in the universe and protects Mother Earth.

Well how come He is not "protecting 'Mother Earth' (whatever that is)? Instead he seems to be causing droughts, doesn't He?

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God's purpose I would describe as Life.

That is so vague that it means nothing. What do you mean "Life"? Do you mean He's the one who gave life to rattlesnakes, wasps and the AIDs virus?

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God has given us free will

It is now the 21st century. 100 years ago, you could, credibly have claimed that there was free will - unfortunately, today, it has been shown that there is no such thing as "free will", merely the illusion of free-will.

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along with that life in order to deserve the knowledge and freedom that's offered in the afterlife.

The afterlife?! So, have you been dead so that you know there is an afterlife? Have you spoken with dead people? Don't you deserve the knowledge that forces us to realise that once we are dead, we are dead, and that is the end?

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Here's a question for you. Would you really prefer to not have free will and be just a puppet on a string, every choice, every action dictated by God?

For me, that is a silly question - there are no gods and there is no free will. My future is laid out but neither I nor anyone else (and that includes any gods) can possibly know what it is in the long term. However, that 'laid-out' future has absolutely nothing to do with a god, if it did, the gods would know what I was going to do and, if, for example, they knew I was going to be a mass-murderer, it would have been them that chose my path, wouldn't it? In that circumstance, could I be blamed?

If , on the other hand, the gods did not know everyone's future, how could they make things happen? How could Romans:9 be true?

Ro:9:21: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Ro:9:22: What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Ro:9:23: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


Here, it is being said that God makes some people so they can stoke the fires of Hell, and others so they can go to heaven.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #477 on: April 23, 2013, 08:09:39 AM »
I mean just look at Dooms Day Preppers 1 time, those people practice drinking pee just in case.

that's what they say, but I think some of them do it because they like it.
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #478 on: April 23, 2013, 08:20:33 AM »
First of all I do not have mental illness.

He didn't say you did.  He asked the question.  You did not answer.  He explained why it was relevant.

I am perfectly sane.

Let's not get carried away.

Insulting comments make you look like a jerk no matter who the recipient is;

You may have taken that as an insult, but he was not insulting you. He was actually showing compassion. Suppose there were a member who was mentally ill - we've had several come through here, by the way.  And suppose everyone treated this member as if she were not mentally ill.  Would that be right?  No, it wouldn't.  A mentally ill person needs to be treated differently.  Similarly, a 9 year old should not be treated the same way here as an adult member.  So Pony was asking because your answer would indicate how people should treat you.
 
Oh yea don't call me crazy again!!! Name calling is for CHILDREN!!!

Settle down.  No one called you crazy.  He only asked the question.  Stop looking to find offense where none is intended.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #479 on: April 23, 2013, 08:25:59 AM »
the worst thing democracy has done is to make people think their OPINIONS are actually worth something. It makes people think their ignorance on a topic is equal to someone elses KNOWLEDGE, because theyre entitled to their opinion. JB,  the statement in red Anfauglir is referring to is not a statement of opinion any more than 2+2 = 4 is a statement of opinion. You have to understand that if we are going to get anywhere here.
That has nothing to do with democracy, it has to do with freedom of speech.  Given the choice of having to deal with uninformed opinions, and having to deal with a government which punishes people if they say the wrong thing, I'll take the former any time.

Offline Petey

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #480 on: April 23, 2013, 08:27:24 AM »
I've got Peace, Joy and Wisdom, How have I wasted my time?

2 out of 3 ain't bad.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #481 on: April 23, 2013, 08:28:18 AM »
Agreed JB, fear is a bad thing but its still no reason to make stuff up.
...
I think it is obvious that we all handle our fears in different ways. Some people overcome them, others succomb.

This is true. However I would argue that belief in an intangible entity that is looking out for you and will save you from death is succumbing to fear.
Or at the very least denying the inevitable.
« Last Edit: April 23, 2013, 08:32:47 AM by Mrjason »

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #482 on: April 23, 2013, 08:43:57 AM »
And if god does not exist, how beneficial is that use of energy in evolving our knowledge of god?

What I take issue with is when you say that you want to keep your beliefs intact.  Wouldn't it be better to, rather than keeping beliefs intact, striving to assure what you believe is true?  It just seems a little backwards to me is all; if I have belief X, do I try to hold onto belief X, or do I try to continually determine if it makes sense to have belief X?

I think I finally have an answer to your original question based on this.  If 'believing in god' in anyway enables you to ascribe an inherent virtue in belief then it is a bad thing.  There is virtue in being able to believe things; there is virtue in allowing others to have other beliefs; there is no virtue in a belief itself.

Have I not said I would give up belief to help my fellow man. Would you?Could you? You believe something too. Will you give up your belief? You can't just give up belief. I would give it an honest try but I wouldn't believe it. I could try but for some reason I don't think I could believe myself. Have you ever tried to lie to yourself, I bet it doesn't work very well. Maybe we needed just a little bit more of something during that Big Blast. Maybe the Big Blast should have made us more alike, more giving, more aware of where we come from, then we'd all get along. Either way we have free will to do with our thoughts and feelings what we want. Heck we're lucky we got a conscience and any intelligence at all, what more do you want. I mean this is just a big accident, right?

See this is what I mean when I say belief "can" help. When you have trust in God it makes sense and it "can" bring you peace of mind. Belief gives me hope in mankind in contrast to Luck. I do not like to leave things up to "luck." I am not a lucky person. I've had to work for everything I got and I'm not just talking about material things. I am Thankful for what I got, why would I feel thankful if there's noone to thank?
Well, you also said (bolding what I felt was the relevant):
Quote
I would really like to get past this part into how we can together help our world with our beliefs intact.  We are all good people here and I simply wanted you all to see that not all believers are the same.
The implication was that you wanted to hold onto some set of beliefs for some reason.  Now you mention that you are willing to let go of your beliefs if that will help the world.  Which is good.  Now, would you be wiling to let go of a belief that is untrue?

I still have no idea what you mean when you say belief can "help".  You describe a big laundry list of hopes and wishes, and then you say "See, that's what I mean when I say belief can "help".  Has this thread really just been one giant semantic misunderstanding?  Do you mean 'hope' or 'wish' whenever you say 'belief'?

Why would you feel thankful when there is no one to thank?  I dunno - does feeling grateful always need a sentient to point to as responsible?  How about feeling resentful?

And I really hate the whole 'this is a big accident' trope.  Reality is what it is.  Why must reality have intent?  Why bother subjecting yourself to referential mania?

And exactly who here wants to leave it up to luck to get anything accomplished?  I don't understand that part of your response.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #483 on: April 23, 2013, 09:14:53 AM »
I think it's mankind doing the hating. It is mankind's responsibility to change. Mankind needs to learn from the mistakes we make.
So what mistake did mankind do to cause a tsunami killing thousands?
Quote

I think God keeps balance in the universe and protects Mother Earth. God's purpose I would describe as Life. God has given us free will along with that life in order to deserve the knowledge and freedom that's offered in the afterlife.

Here's a question for you. Would you really prefer to not have free will and be just a puppet on a string, every choice, every action dictated by God?
Please describe this freedom you allude to.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #484 on: April 23, 2013, 09:56:21 AM »
Then the statement "believing in god is not a bad thing" is meaningless, given what you have said here.

"Believing doesn't make you good or bad."
"Some people chose to do good, some bad."


Means that the two statements:
.     Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
and
.     Believing in God is Not a Good Thing
are equivalent.  One could summarise them by saying that
.     Believing in God is Neither a Good nor a Bad Thing - it is an Irrelevant Thing
at least according to what you have said here.

It is a meaningless statement because those two red statements MAKE it meaningless.  You've said that belief has no effect on what a person does - hence belief is meaningless.  Not just on god, no matter WHAT the belief is, it is meaningless. 

That's a matter of opinion. It's not meaningless to me. I have no trouble "grasping" your words, I just don't agree.

Fine.  Then please can you try explaining why I'm wrong in what I have written here.

How is it that "Believing doesn't make you good or bad" - but believing is nevertheless a positive thing?  If it has no effect, how can it be a positive thing?  Or are you now switching back and saying that believing DOES change a person?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #485 on: April 23, 2013, 10:02:08 AM »
None at all. I feel it is not fair for people with diagnoses of mental illness to be treated in all situations, such as this one, as if they did not have a disability. They should be treated according to their pathology, fairly. Differentiation is key. I think people may be being to hard on you because they are not aware of a crucial element. Your misunderstanding is understandable because of the stigma attached to such illnesses. If you have a disability beyond your control, I do not think it makes you look bad, I think it has the potential to make those arguing with you look bad, however.

First of all I do not have mental illness. I am perfectly sane. Insulting comments make you look like a jerk no matter who the recipient is; it's just worse when it is directed at someone who is ill, which I am not. The nerve of some of you people, I will say I will never ever ever be one of you. You are more obnoxious than any Christian I've ever met!!!

Oh yea don't call me crazy again!!! Name calling is for CHILDREN!!!

I think this says a lot about your predjudices against people with mental illness - that you feel that simply asking the question is an insult.  As has been said, we HAVE had people here with mental illnesses - and, as is quite correct, we make appropriate allowances.

But you can't make assumptions - I think you were quite forceful about that? - and so, when one of the Admin team believes there is a chance a person has a mental illness, we ask.  Its not an insult, its not a means of belittling you.

You could have said "no", and left it at that.  What I find quite revealing is the extreme reaction you had to a reasonable question.  Like I say, that speaks volumes about your own attitudes to people with mental illness.

For what it is worth, I DON'T think you have any mental health issues, which is why I'm not holding back when speaking to you.  If I thought you did, I would be treating you in a completely different way.  Its called making reasonable adjustments - but we can't do it if we don't know there is a problem.  Hence, when we suspect there may be one, we ask.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #486 on: April 23, 2013, 10:04:46 AM »
JB, do you think that delusional people know that they are delusional?
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #487 on: April 23, 2013, 10:42:15 AM »
Since our junebug seems to believes that her subjective and baseless opinions deserve more credit that experts in their field, I respectfully submit the following link: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/04/21/study-finds-belief-in-free-market-economics-predicts-rejection-of-science/

And here is the link to the abstract of the study being referenced: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/early/2013/03/25/0956797612457686.abstract

Now jb, please go take a look and then come back and tell me again that beliefs are not the root cause of the problems we've been discussing. God beliefs do not get a separate special and distinct consideration that defies every study ever conducted on how people behave and why, just because you want to keep your utterly subjective world view intact. Hold on to your belief that God is treating you well, but for the love of truth, stop insisting that those beliefs doesn't cause all kinds of problems because it doesn't seem to have that exact effect on YOU.

You are not representative of the entirety of believers, you represent a portion of them. YOUR beliefs may be mostly harmless to others, but that's been repeatedly demonstrated to be a false idea when you try to apply it to all other believers.

Politicians don't say they don't accept climate science because they believe in God. They are doing it out of Greed. They represent special interest groups, like say oil industry. Maybe you should check out where I get my info. Try "Shadows of Liberty" or American Greed or the documentary on The Koch Brothers. Then tell me our problem isn't greed. Greed takes advantage of belief. Belief is not the problem it is greed.

Yea and you know what my opinion matters. I know several believers and they all believe in climate change. They recycle and believe we should keep our planet clean out of respect for God.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #488 on: April 23, 2013, 10:49:12 AM »
Then the statement "believing in god is not a bad thing" is meaningless, given what you have said here.

"Believing doesn't make you good or bad."
"Some people chose to do good, some bad."


Means that the two statements:
.     Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
and
.     Believing in God is Not a Good Thing
are equivalent.  One could summarise them by saying that
.     Believing in God is Neither a Good nor a Bad Thing - it is an Irrelevant Thing
at least according to what you have said here.

It is a meaningless statement because those two red statements MAKE it meaningless.  You've said that belief has no effect on what a person does - hence belief is meaningless.  Not just on god, no matter WHAT the belief is, it is meaningless. 

That's a matter of opinion. It's not meaningless to me. I have no trouble "grasping" your words, I just don't agree.

Fine.  Then please can you try explaining why I'm wrong in what I have written here.

How is it that "Believing doesn't make you good or bad" - but believing is nevertheless a positive thing?  If it has no effect, how can it be a positive thing?  Or are you now switching back and saying that believing DOES change a person?

Why can't you understand that it, being belief, is what you make it. Belief don't think and act on it's on it is conducted by the owner, not the other way around.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #489 on: April 23, 2013, 10:54:36 AM »
the worst thing democracy has done is to make people think their OPINIONS are actually worth something. It makes people think their ignorance on a topic is equal to someone elses KNOWLEDGE, because theyre entitled to their opinion. JB,  the statement in red Anfauglir is referring to is not a statement of opinion any more than 2+2 = 4 is a statement of opinion. You have to understand that if we are going to get anywhere here.

The statement as written makes belief in god worthless in that belief has no effect what-so-ever. The statement was YOUR statement. Now if you disagree with your own statement then you should clarify that and say what you meant to say, but dont forget to provide evidence for whatever your stance is. Your opinion isnt evidence, as various people have shown through studies that your opinions have been wrong, and thus opinions on statements of fact are of little value.

You may have the opinion that 2+2=5, just because its your opinion doesnt make it right, nor do I even have to entertain or respect the notion.

I'll have to get to this later. gotta go for now.

And that is your opinion not mine. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #490 on: April 23, 2013, 10:58:03 AM »
JB, do you think that delusional people know that they are delusional?

This makes you look very desperate.  &)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #491 on: April 23, 2013, 11:10:56 AM »
I was hoping you would be able to give a straight answer to a straight question.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #492 on: April 23, 2013, 11:13:03 AM »
Politicians don't say they don't accept climate science...

What about voters?  Afterall, pols are not the only climate deniers.

I think part of the issue was nailed by TheGawd - Americans think that because they are entitled to opinions that all opinions are equal.  They are not.  Another part of the problem is the illusions of competence and knowledge.[1] 


I know several believers and they all believe in climate change. They recycle and believe we should keep our planet clean out of respect for God.

That's great.  But you have misunderstood the point of the article.  Of course not everyone is going to be exactly the same way.  The point is belief is a good indicator, not a perfect one.  Your friends are exceptions.
 1. numbers 3 and 4 here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,21893.msg496911.html#msg496911
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