Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 28491 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #406 on: April 20, 2013, 10:33:14 AM »
Wow, I'm really close to being "white light and fluffly bunnies"-ed to exhaustion on this.

junebug, I'm not sure if you caught the actual point of my post. The examples I gave you, two out of MILLIONS I could have used, show quite clearly that BELIEF IN GOD IS THE FORCE BEHIND THESE CHOICES. AND THESE CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SAME OPTIONS OR OPPORTUNITIES TO CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES. BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAS IMPOSED THEIR PERSONAL GOD BELIEFS ON THE VICTIMS OF THE OUTCOMES. There are victims, real human beings who's lives and opportunities to make choices are taken away from them by people who sincerely believe they are doing god's will. That's HARMFUL, no matter how you look at it.

Yes, it's the people who are actually doing the harm, I've never disputed that. BUT, the point you keep not seeing is that yes, believing in god(s) can be a VERY BAD THING INDEED when it causes people to harm others. Denying it because you personally are not oppressing anyone does not make it so.
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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #407 on: April 20, 2013, 10:39:24 AM »
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.  (Jonathan Swift)
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #408 on: April 20, 2013, 10:52:38 AM »
"It's like being beaten to death with feathers." (Rand al'Thor ;) )
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #409 on: April 20, 2013, 11:09:42 AM »
Jeff,

To pray means to, "ask God for help," in the spiritual arena does it not? I will say voting and contacting politicians that vote on behalf of corps. vs. pollution is a good start.

I still think the song is about; God is there when no one else is.

I don't think the character thought the volleyball was God.

Jaime,

I understand how you would feel that way about it. I follow many teachings and philosophies, Christians would call that blaspheme. I refuse to believe the Bible is the word of God. This condemns me to hell. Oh you know I'm a lesbian too. Although I am aware the Episcopalians have accepted the LGBT community. See I try and stay away from religious beliefs because I find it clouds your judgement.

I am not trying to shove anything down your throat. I have said several times here that I don't see anything wrong with your beliefs. I haven't the first time insulted you for being different from me so I don't know where you're coming from here.

Star,

I'm sure you can find several versions of how that happened.


Gawd,

We are supposed to help the helpless. Not by throwing money at it but really get rid of poverty. Get rid of greed.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #410 on: April 20, 2013, 11:50:01 AM »
Wow, I'm really close to being "white light and fluffly bunnies"-ed to exhaustion on this.

junebug, I'm not sure if you caught the actual point of my post. The examples I gave you, two out of MILLIONS I could have used, show quite clearly that BELIEF IN GOD IS THE FORCE BEHIND THESE CHOICES. AND THESE CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SAME OPTIONS OR OPPORTUNITIES TO CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES. BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAS IMPOSED THEIR PERSONAL GOD BELIEFS ON THE VICTIMS OF THE OUTCOMES. There are victims, real human beings who's lives and opportunities to make choices are taken away from them by people who sincerely believe they are doing god's will. That's HARMFUL, no matter how you look at it.

Yes, it's the people who are actually doing the harm, I've never disputed that. BUT, the point you keep not seeing is that yes, believing in god(s) can be a VERY BAD THING INDEED when it causes people to harm others. Denying it because you personally are not oppressing anyone does not make it so.


I do see you're point. It can be a bad thing. I don't see how it can be belief itself if it does not affect us all the same.  There's something wrong indeed, I just don't think it's belief.

Here I'm gonna say something mean just for fun. Kiss my grits! :laugh:

Gotta go been at this awhile now.



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #411 on: April 20, 2013, 12:07:25 PM »
I don't see how it can be belief itself if it does not affect us all the same.  There's something wrong indeed, I just don't think it's belief.

I could have sworn that's exactly what I just explained.

It most certainly is belief. Because people believe what they want to believe, and then use "GOD" to justify it. That's show it works jb - people are really f'ing irrational that way. Of course it doesn't affect everyone the same way - if it was that simple, we the human species wouldn't have so many different versions of god beliefs in the first place! And we sure as shit wouldn't be willing to kill each other over them.

YOU may not be moved to do awful sh!t in the name of your god, but plenty of other people do it every single day. I provided links to demonstrate exactly how.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #412 on: April 20, 2013, 12:10:53 PM »
And secondly, you must be able to demonstrate that your definition of god is correct, and my definition is wrong.  And - sorry to say - to do that, I rather suspect you will need to show some evidence.....

That is a subject for another thread.

Just to clarify: are you saying that you ARE prepared to demonstrate your definition of god is correct, and provide evidence to support it, in another thread?  If so I would be more than happy to discuss it with you in the debate room: the benefit to you there is that you would only be discussing it with me, and not have to field umpteen questions from several other participants.

Shall I request that a debate be set up for us Junebug?  Or are you, perhaps, using "this is not the thread to discuss evidence" as a shield.....?

Before we continue with that discussion, I must ask what your qualifications are. Are you an expert scientist ready to conduct experiments and if so what kind of experiments are we going to do? My "report"evidence was dismissed by screwey as legal evidence not scientific, but I am more than happy to cooperate with any expert scientist with knowledge and equipment. Maybe WE could solve the mystery once and for all!

I'm not the one dictating what a person can say and what they can't. This is a major reason I wouldn't want to live in an atheist environment, no freedom of speech.

The only experiment I have ever conducted is trying the philosophies I have mentioned in my life with very successful results. It would be my pleasure to share with you Anf.

I'll take that as a "yes" then - I'll get the debate set up.  Looking forward to it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #413 on: April 20, 2013, 12:21:05 PM »
Anfauglir:  What she wrote was confusing, I definitely agree there.

Reading it as "it isn't believing that causes problems" would also do the trick.

I hope that she realizes just why the words are so important now.  Just by putting the contraction in a different spot ("it's not believing" vs "it isn't believing") can change the whole meaning.

thx Jaime. I do a lot of proofreading and I can see how someone could misinterpret.

I never underestimate the power of words!!!

So, have I now correctly understood what you wrote, Junebug?

When you said "It means that it's not believing that causes problems", I read that as "it is unbelief that causes problems".  You meant "its not the belief that causes problems".  I really hope I've got that right this time?

So I'll try again:  your point is that "it isn't the belief in (a) god that causes the problems, its the people that cause the problems".  "Don't blame the belief, because its the person that is at fault, not the belief".

I think I've got that right, because you said that

a person (will) display the same behaviour with or without belief.

Have I grasped what you are saying?  Honestly, I'm trying hard to get your drift.

It's hard because - assuming I HAVE got it right so far - the sentence

a person (will) display the same behaviour with or without belief.

presumably applies both to those who do bad, and those who do good.  A person who is going to do good "(will) display the same behaviour with or without belief" also.  Which means that if we accept the premise that "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing", it also means that "Believing in God is Not a Good Thing"- simply, that "Believing in God has no effect on a person's behaviour".

But no - that can't be right, because you have asserted over and over again that Believing in God changed your behaviour quite dramatically, for the better.  So clearly somene who believes in god WILL change dramatically for the better, as a result of that belief. 

But.....you said that " a person (will) display the same behaviour with or without belief", because people are people.

But then you can't have changed as a result of your belief.....and you reinforce that up there:

.....a person who believes in god will act in a better way as a result, I suppose.....belief improves that person's life

That's not what that statement means

Can you see why I am confused, Junebug?  I truly, honestly do not understand what you are saying, because you so often say things that contradict other things that you have said.

Can you spell it out for me please?  Does belief in god change a person, yes or no?  Will people behave the same way whether or not they believe in god, yes or no?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #414 on: April 20, 2013, 02:35:14 PM »
Sometimes I'm just too damn stubborn for my own good. This appears to be one of those times.....

Ok, trying again. jb, on the question of why it doesn't have the same impact on everyone, I offer this: people who, like yourself, are interested in the betterment of mankind are not the same people who are drawn to an oppressive expression of their god beliefs. They are far more likely to follow a belief system that is similar to your.

There are lots of other people in the world who are insecure, uncertain of their worth, and maybe even somewhat lost. Those people can and do easily fall prey to the worst kind - the exploiters.

Whether or not the exploiters actually believe in God is beside the point. The exploiters are very skilled, usually innately, in playing on people's fears and manipulating others for any number of reasons. And they use God beliefs to encourage others to take actions they would not otherwise take without that encouragement.

I know a lot of people who I think are generally very decent, who are completely irrational on the topic of homosexuality. And they use their God beliefs to excuse their oppressive actions against gay people. I live in Minnesota, and there was a ballot measure last year seeking to change our state constitution to define marriage as solely between one man and one woman. Some of the flat out lies told by ban supporters in their campaign literature were so transparent and idiotic that you'd think any dipsh!t with two critical thinking cells to rub together to form a spark would see through them. Turns out, I was underestimating how much people will buy into any stupidity that confirms their existing bias. It's either that, or there's a lot of people out there Hatin' for Jesus. Take your pick.

Since at present, the Supreme Court is dragging their feet trying to avoid making any decision at all, States are left to decide on their own. I volunteered to make voter calls in the  months leading up to the election, advocating to vote against the change (it would have been step one of two to a permanent ban on gay marriage in MN). Most of the people I spoke with were in agreement already, as MN tends to be somewhat liberal on civil rights issues. I was also making most of my calls in the metro area, and there's a lot more liberals there.

The (comparative) few who took the "ban it" side, IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE cited God beliefs as their primary reason. I sh!t you not, they voted to legalize discrimination because they firmly believe that God wanted them to. How does that NOT demonstrate my point? I'm as heterosexual as the day is long, and I find that beleif appalling - love is love, and why would we be discouraging it?. That people actually believe that God wants them to single out a group of people and treat them as somehow "less than" just leaves me exhausted, and sometime tearful.

For the record, I simply thanked them for their time and hung up. It didn't happen all that often, but it was extremely disheartening to hear it from anyone.

I honestly don't understand how you don't see the harm, I really don't. And I'm dead-certain that it's not from a lack of effort on my part.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #415 on: April 20, 2013, 05:13:42 PM »

Gawd,

We are supposed to help the helpless. Not by throwing money at it but really get rid of poverty. Get rid of greed.

Well, that kid isnt going to live (truthfully he's probably dead by now) to see the end of greed, or poverty. He may have been the person to help with that problem had he EVER been given a chance at life... this is our fault as humans. But your god couldve snuck him a sandwich when no one was looking.  Coulda did the fish and bread trick that he did before (you can find that story in the bible).

Also, it is impossible to end poverty... why? Because Jesus said the poor would always be with us. So, since he said it, it either has to happen OR Jesus is a liar. Which is it JB; Jesus is a liar, or he forced poverty onto people by speaking it into existence?

Offline Astreja

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #416 on: April 20, 2013, 08:03:09 PM »
You do realize we are talking about the most powerful force in the universe don't you. In your mind it may seem possible to track God down on some radar device, but in my mind it is not possible.

I say again:  If it's the most powerful force in the universe, physical traces of its existence should literally be everywhere.  If we can see long-ago-exploded supernovas with the naked eye, why can't we see the manifestation of your god's power as it interacts with the physical universe?

Quote
Well, maybe it's not supposed to be easy. Maybe it's supposed to be hard as hell. That's why I believe there is a gift behind death's door. A gift that makes it all worthwhile!

And maybe your god just isn't there, and struggling to find something that never existed is just a waste of precious time.

If it's all the same to you, Junebug, I'm going to concentrate on this life rather than hoping against hope for another one.  I don't think there's anything behind death's door except death.  I have a strong conviction that there is no such thing as life after death, and that at best the molecules of our body may eventually find other gigs in other life forms. 

Quote
I am willing to share my heart and soul with you, so that you have something to judge belief on besides what you have seen so far. That's all.

Junebug, I think it's an extraordinarily bad idea for you to "share heart and soul" (and am also concerned that you might expose your innermost feelings to substantial ridicule, or at very least an intractably unsympathetic audience).

I have chosen evidence-based living over belief/faith for a reason... A very good reason.  I have found it to be more dependable, more satisfying, and on the whole a safer and more genuine way of living, than viewing reality from a faith point of view.

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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #417 on: April 20, 2013, 11:41:03 PM »
Your welcome Dump.  that's funny. :laugh: I think I'll nickname you Fire!
The only message boards I'd participated in prior to joining WWGHA were sports related, and I habitually used the same screen name. It works well on the sports boards as a reference to something that is just uncontrollably awful[1], but in retrospect it might have been wiser to choose something a little less goofy for this site. But I suppose its good for some LULz, and I'm not someone who digs being serious all the time, so I guess I'll hang on to it. Feel free to call me whatever variation of it you wish, although "Fire" is probably the most flattering of them :), and "Dump" the least. Oh well.
 1. example: "When we won our first 3 games I thought we were Super Bowl contenders, but then Johnson blew out his knee, we lost 5 in a row, and the season turned into a total dumpster fire."
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #418 on: April 21, 2013, 12:27:29 AM »
I honestly don't understand how you don't see the harm, I really don't. And I'm dead-certain that it's not from a lack of effort on my part.
I do.  People think in representative symbols.  For example, the people you talked to who supported that marriage amendment for religious reasons?  To them, "homosexuality" is symbolic.  It represents Original Sin (disobedience to the dictates of God) to them, in addition to being something that God hated so much that he nuked a town to get rid of it.  As long as they have the symbolic meaning fixed in their heads, rational arguments won't really work that well.  They just bounce off of their mental armor, because they can't see how it (in this case homosexuality) could be anything but what they already know it is.

The key is to get them to realize that a symbol can have multiple meanings.  The meaning they have in their minds is not going to apply to everyone.  Not everyone is capable of doing this, though.

Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #419 on: April 21, 2013, 02:24:04 AM »
The only message boards I'd participated in prior to joining WWGHA were sports related, and I habitually used the same screen name.

This made me giggle a bit. My name came from a sports forum as well, as a social experiment. It's actually kind of a joke that stuck.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #420 on: April 21, 2013, 02:33:51 AM »
I honestly don't understand how you don't see the harm, I really don't. And I'm dead-certain that it's not from a lack of effort on my part.
I do.  People think in representative symbols.  For example, the people you talked to who supported that marriage amendment for religious reasons?  To them, "homosexuality" is symbolic.  It represents Original Sin (disobedience to the dictates of God) to them, in addition to being something that God hated so much that he nuked a town to get rid of it.  As long as they have the symbolic meaning fixed in their heads, rational arguments won't really work that well.  They just bounce off of their mental armor, because they can't see how it (in this case homosexuality) could be anything but what they already know it is.

The key is to get them to realize that a symbol can have multiple meanings.  The meaning they have in their minds is not going to apply to everyone.  Not everyone is capable of doing this, though.

I think I'm going to have to walk away from this one. I've got too much school-related work as the semester winds down, and I'm clearly still not getting through. Time to be done.

You make a very good point. I also got an accidental neuro-linguistic anchor out of that by misreading mental as metal, and then catching my error. It blurred into a sort of cartoon suit of armor in my minds eye that is now linked to a certain type of believer. I'm not sure if that's going to serve me well or not, but it's amusing me right at the moment!

There's no denying the power of symbolism. I like the way you think.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #421 on: April 21, 2013, 05:17:58 AM »
Wow, I'm really close to being "white light and fluffly bunnies"-ed to exhaustion on this.

junebug, I'm not sure if you caught the actual point of my post. The examples I gave you, two out of MILLIONS I could have used, show quite clearly that BELIEF IN GOD IS THE FORCE BEHIND THESE CHOICES. AND THESE CHOICES HAVE CONSEQUENCES FOR OTHER PEOPLE WHO DO NOT HAVE THE SAME OPTIONS OR OPPORTUNITIES TO CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES. BECAUSE SOMEONE ELSE HAS IMPOSED THEIR PERSONAL GOD BELIEFS ON THE VICTIMS OF THE OUTCOMES. There are victims, real human beings who's lives and opportunities to make choices are taken away from them by people who sincerely believe they are doing god's will. That's HARMFUL, no matter how you look at it.

Yes, it's the people who are actually doing the harm, I've never disputed that. BUT, the point you keep not seeing is that yes, believing in god(s) can be a VERY BAD THING INDEED when it causes people to harm others. Denying it because you personally are not oppressing anyone does not make it so.

I really do not see what you're so upset with  Jag. All the bold capital letters give me the impression of anger. I think the only thing we disagree on is the cause of it all. I say it is religion. That you have less of a chance to have a "genuine" relationship to God, that it is religion that divides us not belief. Belief is the 1 thing they all have in common. At the birth of belief it's only belief, religion is what dictates all the disagreements. It is my purpose in life to get these people to realize that God created us all, Loves us all, and would really appreciate it if we'd quit bickering over religion. I'm telling you that it was only after I gave up religion I started to understand God. It's been a long time now but when I was a girl in church 1 of the only sermons that has stayed with me through the years is the 1 on religion. It's in the bible. I'll see if I can find it. It's in 1 of those letter books.  It's Galatians chapter 1 and James 1:26,27. I looked that up in my Dad's bible and those vs. are still highlighted from that sermon. Had a moment there. Matter of fact caught several good messages from Paul to his students that have been blatantly ignored throughout the years. I especially liked the one about the "wicked tongue".  That's the same philosophy I read about and use in my own life in the "Four Agreements." 

That's why I throw feathers, because I understand the power of words. The Bible does touch on the subject but I've never seen it put as eloquently as it was in that book.

See that's the kind of leader I want to see lead. It's going to take a courageous person. I thought Obama might get the job done but it seems we're more divided than ever!(you won't convince me it has nothing to do with skin color and money) He needs to get his butt out there and talk to the people in this country. Bring us together. State Governments, city and county, they all need to do some "soul searching." Lead people Lead. I don't see much of any of them; only segments on the news where they seem to just add more controversy. Matters that concern the air we breathe, water we drink and food we eat should be voted on by "we the people."

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #422 on: April 21, 2013, 05:35:17 AM »
I think the only thing we disagree on is the cause of it all. I say it is religion. That you have less of a chance to have a "genuine" relationship to God, that it is religion that divides us not belief. Belief is the 1 thing they all have in common. At the birth of belief it's only belief, religion is what dictates all the disagreements. It is my purpose in life to get these people to realize that God created us all, Loves us all, and would really appreciate it if we'd quit bickering over religion.

So you have a tenet (god created us all), a specified desire of that god (that it loves us all), and an instruction from that god (stop bickering).  How is what you are trying to get people to accept NOT a religion?

Jag is saying that the people he spoke to have tenets (god did not create homosexuality), a specified desire of that god (that nobody is homosexual), and an instruction from that god (do what you can to prevent homosexuality).  You claim that all that is a religon, not a belief.  How does it differ from the class of things that YOU have taken as your purpose to get people to accept?

You have created a religion just as much as any other Junebug.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #423 on: April 21, 2013, 05:44:15 AM »
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.  (Jonathan Swift)

I am not unreasonable. Quite the opposite star. Quite the opposite. I looked it up and my picture was there!!! lol Along with Aristotle and a few others!!!

Boy you are a real smarty pants! :o
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #424 on: April 21, 2013, 05:50:24 AM »
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.  (Jonathan Swift)

I am not unreasonable. Quite the opposite star. Quite the opposite. I looked it up and my picture was there!!! lol Along with Aristotle and a few others!!!

Boy you are a real smarty pants! :o
[/quote
the quote doesnt insinuate that you are an unreasonable person, but this thing about god you didnt come to through reason (it was faith of sorts) so being that you did not come to it through reason and in spite of reason, its likely that using reason to get you out will be ineffective.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #425 on: April 21, 2013, 06:16:35 AM »
It is my purpose in life to get these people to realize that God created us all, Loves us all, and would really appreciate it if we'd quit bickering over religion.

And do you not think that this is what every leader of every mad cult says? "Quite bickering and agree with me!"

As a side note, nowhere in the Bible does God say He loves us all.

Quote
Matters that concern the air we breathe, water we drink and food we eat should be voted on by "we the people."

Do you really want mob rule by those who cannot understand science and listen to the tribal god of the Israelites?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #426 on: April 21, 2013, 06:28:49 AM »
I say again:  If it's the most powerful force in the universe, physical traces of its existence should literally be everywhere.  If we can see long-ago-exploded supernovas with the naked eye, why can't we see the manifestation of your god's power as it interacts with the physical universe?

It is Astre, It is!!! I would think God is composed of all the elements!

I think seeing that neutron star, I hope I got that right, is the Power of God.

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And maybe your god just isn't there, and struggling to find something that never existed is just a waste of precious time.

I've got Peace, Joy and Wisdom, How have I wasted my time?

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If it's all the same to you, Junebug, I'm going to concentrate on this life rather than hoping against hope for another one.  I don't think there's anything behind death's door except death.  I have a strong conviction that there is no such thing as life after death, and that at best the molecules of our body may eventually find other gigs in other life forms.

I do not feel informed enough to give up my precious "hope."

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Junebug, I think it's an extraordinarily bad idea for you to "share heart and soul" (and am also concerned that you might expose your innermost feelings to substantial ridicule, or at very least an intractably unsympathetic audience).

I have chosen evidence-based living over belief/faith for a reason... A very good reason.  I have found it to be more dependable, more satisfying, and on the whole a safer and more genuine way of living, than viewing reality from a faith point of view.

I do not believe you are unsympathetic.

I am glad you have chosen a way of life that makes you happy.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #427 on: April 21, 2013, 06:32:47 AM »
Be back in about 20-30 mins.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Ambassador Pony

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #428 on: April 21, 2013, 06:53:18 AM »
Hey, Junebug, what's the illuminati, and are they real?
You believe evolution and there is no evidence for that. Where is the fossil record of a half man half ape. I've only ever heard about it in reading.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #429 on: April 21, 2013, 07:09:50 AM »
So, broadly, June, your go is the entirety of the universe is it? In which case why not just call it the universe as we do and eliminate teh word god altogether?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #430 on: April 21, 2013, 08:47:26 AM »

So, have I now correctly understood what you wrote, Junebug?

When you said "It means that it's not believing that causes problems", I read that as "it is unbelief that causes problems".  You meant "its not the belief that causes problems".  I really hope I've got that right this time?

So I'll try again:  your point is that "it isn't the belief in (a) god that causes the problems, its the people that cause the problems".  "Don't blame the belief, because its the person that is at fault, not the belief".

I think I've got that right, because you said that

Have I grasped what you are saying?  Honestly, I'm trying hard to get your drift.

It's hard because - assuming I HAVE got it right so far - the sentence

a person (will) display the same behaviour with or without belief.
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presumably applies both to those who do bad, and those who do good.  A person who is going to do good "(will) display the same behaviour with or without belief" also.  Which means that if we accept the premise that "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing", it also means that "Believing in God is Not a Good Thing"- simply, that "Believing in God has no effect on a person's behaviour".

But no - that can't be right, because you have asserted over and over again that Believing in God changed your behaviour quite dramatically, for the better.  So clearly somene who believes in god WILL change dramatically for the better, as a result of that belief. 

But.....you said that " a person (will) display the same behaviour with or without belief", because people are people.

But then you can't have changed as a result of your belief.....and you reinforce that up there:

The change happened when I gave God my trust, not my belief. I do trust because I have belief.

.....a person who believes in god will act in a better way as a result, I suppose.....belief improves that person's life

That's not what that statement means

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Can you see why I am confused, Junebug?  I truly, honestly do not understand what you are saying, because you so often say things that contradict other things that you have said.

Can you spell it out for me please?  Does belief in god change a person, yes or no?  Will people behave the same way whether or not they believe in god, yes or no?

Yes it can.

Yes.

I did not properly articulate my thoughts clearly enough, but I think to use the word "often" you should provide at least 3 examples.



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #431 on: April 21, 2013, 08:56:28 AM »
It is useless to attempt to reason a man out of what he was never reasoned into.  (Jonathan Swift)

I am not unreasonable. Quite the opposite star. Quite the opposite. I looked it up and my picture was there!!! lol Along with Aristotle and a few others!!!

Boy you are a real smarty pants! :o
[/quote
the quote doesnt insinuate that you are an unreasonable person, but this thing about god you didnt come to through reason (it was faith of sorts) so being that you did not come to it through reason and in spite of reason, its likely that using reason to get you out will be ineffective.

I have spent 25 years reasoning. It don't go faith then belief, it's belief then faith.



Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #432 on: April 21, 2013, 09:00:45 AM »
Hey, Junebug, what's the illuminati, and are they real?

The only time I heard of illuminati is from the movie "The Davinci Code."
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #433 on: April 21, 2013, 09:08:17 AM »
So, broadly, June, your go is the entirety of the universe is it? In which case why not just call it the universe as we do and eliminate teh word god altogether?

Not quite wheels, to me God is the source of the universe. God knows why and how all things are. I love to call God; Master of the Universe.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #434 on: April 21, 2013, 09:33:32 AM »
Sometimes I'm just too damn stubborn for my own good. This appears to be one of those times.....

Ok, trying again. jb, on the question of why it doesn't have the same impact on everyone, I offer this: people who, like yourself, are interested in the betterment of mankind are not the same people who are drawn to an oppressive expression of their god beliefs. They are far more likely to follow a belief system that is similar to your.

There are lots of other people in the world who are insecure, uncertain of their worth, and maybe even somewhat lost. Those people can and do easily fall prey to the worst kind - the exploiters.

Whether or not the exploiters actually believe in God is beside the point. The exploiters are very skilled, usually innately, in playing on people's fears and manipulating others for any number of reasons. And they use God beliefs to encourage others to take actions they would not otherwise take without that encouragement.

I know a lot of people who I think are generally very decent, who are completely irrational on the topic of homosexuality. And they use their God beliefs to excuse their oppressive actions against gay people. I live in Minnesota, and there was a ballot measure last year seeking to change our state constitution to define marriage as solely between one man and one woman. Some of the flat out lies told by ban supporters in their campaign literature were so transparent and idiotic that you'd think any dipsh!t with two critical thinking cells to rub together to form a spark would see through them. Turns out, I was underestimating how much people will buy into any stupidity that confirms their existing bias. It's either that, or there's a lot of people out there Hatin' for Jesus. Take your pick.

Since at present, the Supreme Court is dragging their feet trying to avoid making any decision at all, States are left to decide on their own. I volunteered to make voter calls in the  months leading up to the election, advocating to vote against the change (it would have been step one of two to a permanent ban on gay marriage in MN). Most of the people I spoke with were in agreement already, as MN tends to be somewhat liberal on civil rights issues. I was also making most of my calls in the metro area, and there's a lot more liberals there.

The (comparative) few who took the "ban it" side, IN EVERY SINGLE INSTANCE cited God beliefs as their primary reason. I sh!t you not, they voted to legalize discrimination because they firmly believe that God wanted them to. How does that NOT demonstrate my point? I'm as heterosexual as the day is long, and I find that beleif appalling - love is love, and why would we be discouraging it?. That people actually believe that God wants them to single out a group of people and treat them as somehow "less than" just leaves me exhausted, and sometime tearful.

For the record, I simply thanked them for their time and hung up. It didn't happen all that often, but it was extremely disheartening to hear it from anyone.

I honestly don't understand how you don't see the harm, I really don't. And I'm dead-certain that it's not from a lack of effort on my part.

Jag first of all let me thank you for your time. You have not spent it in vain. I have tried to tell you that I cry over the same things as you do. I do not understand how people can think God wants gay people banished or black people enslaved or women burnt at the stakes. What I do know is that it's my belief that tells me they're dead wrong.

I think, hope, that we can agree on a summary such as this one.

That belief can be bad, because it can make a person vulnerable to conniving, devious, bad people.

That belief can be good when used for good.

So we're both right and we're both wrong.

I would really like to get past this part into how we can together help our world with our beliefs intact.  We are all good people here and I simply wanted you all to see that not all believers are the same. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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