Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 42816 times)

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Offline Hierophant

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #348 on: April 19, 2013, 12:44:23 AM »
If there is no difference between prayer not being answered and prayer being answered, then you're literally saying nothing meaningful at all.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #349 on: April 19, 2013, 03:13:30 AM »
"Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is the proposition - a pretty bald statement.

It means in effect that a person who believes in god will act in a better way as a result, I suppose.  That's the way I will presume the statement is to be taken - that belief improves that person's life, and/or improves the world as a result.

Unfortunately, that is pretty easily falsifiable.   We've looked at people who have killed their children because of their belief.  The followers of Westboro believe in their god wholeheartedly.  In Africa, children are killed for being witches, because of the widespread belief in god.

The answer that:

I still say it is the disease that causes the irrational behaviour not the belief.....(or).....it isn't the core of belief that causes them to be prejudicial, they would be prejudice whether they believed or not because that is what's in their hearts.

Does not work - it is essentially saying "people would be bad no matter what they believed", which means, at best, that for "bad" people, belief in god brings no benefit.  We therefore cannot say that "belief in god is a GOOD thing, as it brings no benefit to all those people.

So what you are saying is that belief will make good people "gooder"?  Possibly.....but deeply, deeply insulting to everyone who does NOT believe.  Which means that the statement "belief in god is a good thing" will, for a quarter of the world's population, cause varying degrees of anger, resentment, and unhappiness.  That alone is enough to falsify the bald statement.

Sorry, junebug, but the facts don't bear this out. Very few atheists commit crimes. And belief in god does not make people behave. The vast majority of US prisoners are god-believers. Also, lower income folks are much more likely to believe in god and to end up in jail. Correlation, but not necessarily causation.....

Nogodsforme points out that believers are disproportionately represented in the justice system than atheists.  Which seems pretty clear that belief in god is NOT, automatically, a good thing.  Unless you are going to start playing the card that "they did not really believe", or "they did not believe in the RIGHT god".

Magicmiles is quite correct when he says that:

Belief in God does not equate to a life transformed by Christ.

...and it may possibly be possible to define "god" in such a way that the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" become valid (subject perhaps to the causation of unhappiness mentioned above).  But, it DOES require firstly that that god be pretty clearly defined - something that Junebug certainly has not done.  I would suggest that before we can legitimately discuss whether "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing", Junebug first needs to clearly define "god".

Because otherwise, we can use whatever definition of "god" we may wish, and swiftly and mercilessly prove the OP statement to be false.  Example: I posit that the ONLY thing we know for sure about "god", is that it commanded us that "...if a woman have an issue, and her issue in her flesh be blood, she shall be put apart seven days: and whosoever toucheth her shall be unclean until the even..."  Is that good, Junebug?  Are you prepared to accept that because belief in that god is a Good Thing?

I sincerely hope not!  But I say to you "THAT is god", believing in that is a Bad Thing.  For you to show I am wrong (and hence not to concede the point of the OP), you have to do two things.

Firstly, you must clearly define what your god is, and how it differs from the god I have posited there.

And secondly, you must be able to demonstrate that your definition of god is correct, and my definition is wrong.  And - sorry to say - to do that, I rather suspect you will need to show some evidence.....
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #350 on: April 19, 2013, 07:18:59 AM »

I'm not trying to anger you, I'm pointing out your sloppy thinking.

Only sloppy thinking around here is your own, and here's why. When you condescend, make fun, of something that is of importance to someone you're being provocative. I would imagine you receive immense pleasure from making "fun" of Christians, although there are many different types of belief, you do pick on Christians. You were blessed with much intelligence, guess that don't leave much room for courtesy.

This still has nothing to do with the topic.

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In one breath you state that we can't know what this Jesus character said or taught, and in the next breath you say that you love what he did.  Please admit how messed up that is.

Look it's like this starry skies; there were too many people in Jerusalem not to know if Jesus actually died on the cross. Even Muslims do not deny His existence. However unless I read the original copies of the gospels, I can not literally know what is real and what was put there by leaders, church and government. It's my belief that God guides me when I study. That's why I do things like thank God for my wisdom because I believe God blessed me with it.


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Being cool as a cucumber doesn't make you correct, clever, intelligent, or any other desirable attribute.  In fact, it's starting to look like while you have this facade of peace & love and can't we all just get along, you're more mule-headed than anyone else here.

Dang star haven't you ever watched Bruce Lee, a philosopher, or studied anything about the effects of clouded judgement. How letting emotions rule your thinking leaves you at a disadvantage. I love the scenes in martial arts movies when the student puts on the blindfold, love it! The only emotion I want others to see is JOY, PEACE and LOVE.

It doesn't make me wrong either, but it does help me stay calm when I'm being bombarded! I'm sorry star but you're acting no better than the society you claim to be against.

Do you even have a purpose for being here other than getting a good laugh at others expense.  Is this really what you want to see society turn into? You are practicing prejudice star, you hate a group of people, and I'm sorry but prejudice is something I'm strongly against. You seem to not have any interest at all in making the world a better place and that sucks!   

If you want to know if you're pleasing God, just look and see if the person beside you is wearing a smile.IMO. :D
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #351 on: April 19, 2013, 08:00:57 AM »
"Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is the proposition - a pretty bald statement.

It means in effect that a person who believes in god will act in a better way as a result, I suppose.  That's the way I will presume the statement is to be taken - that belief improves that person's life, and/or improves the world as a result.

That's not what that statement means. It means that it's not believing that causes problems, it is the decision of a person what to believe, making the person responsible for their own actions. In other words these same people that use belief to disgrace God, they are responsible not the belief itself. I hope that clears it up for you.


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Does not work - it is essentially saying "people would be bad no matter what they believed", which means, at best, that for "bad" people, belief in god brings no benefit.  We therefore cannot say that "belief in god is a GOOD thing, as it brings no benefit to all those people.


So what you are saying is that belief will make good people "gooder"?  Possibly.....but deeply, deeply insulting to everyone who does NOT believe.  Which means that the statement "belief in god is a good thing" will, for a quarter of the world's population, cause varying degrees of anger, resentment, and unhappiness.  That alone is enough to falsify the bald statement.

I would really appreciate it if you would ask me what I'm saying if you don't understand. It is not appropriate to say that I've said something I have not said. You're giving you're interpretation which is not the same as me saying it. PLease.

And no that is exactly the opposite of what I'm saying.  "Gooder" is your word not mine. I'm saying it doesn't make a person bad to believe in Intelligent Creation"-God. That a person would display the same behaviour with or without belief. The only difference being, there's no God to blame it on.

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Nogodsforme points out that believers are disproportionately represented in the justice system than atheists.  Which seems pretty clear that belief in god is NOT, automatically, a good thing.  Unless you are going to start playing the card that "they did not really believe", or "they did not believe in the RIGHT god".

I think God is very misunderstood!

Since I never said that I'm not going to comment any further on it.


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...and it may possibly be possible to define "god" in such a way that the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" become valid (subject perhaps to the causation of unhappiness mentioned above).  But, it DOES require firstly that that god be pretty clearly defined - something that Junebug certainly has not done.  I would suggest that before we can legitimately discuss whether "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing", Junebug first needs to clearly define "god".

For the purpose of this discussion God is Creator. In other words-Believing in Intelligent Creation is not a bad thing. I hope that clears it up for ya Anf.

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And secondly, you must be able to demonstrate that your definition of god is correct, and my definition is wrong.  And - sorry to say - to do that, I rather suspect you will need to show some evidence.....

That is a subject for another thread. I believe you use this evidence thing as a shield. If we're really going to do scientific experiments we need a controlled environment. I think the only way to know God is through your soul. I believe the fact that we are sitting here talking on this forum 
is evidence of intelligence versus luck. I'm not here to prove to you God exists, that's up to you to decide. I'm here to say it's not a bad thing if ya do!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #352 on: April 19, 2013, 08:07:50 AM »
If there is no difference between prayer not being answered and prayer being answered, then you're literally saying nothing meaningful at all.

Prayer in and of itself is an act of Love therefore it is a moral thing to do for another. The question was not what moral things can God do, but what moral act can man do.

It is still an off topic reply.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #353 on: April 19, 2013, 08:19:36 AM »
"Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is the proposition - a pretty bald statement.

It means in effect that a person who believes in god will act in a better way as a result, I suppose.  That's the way I will presume the statement is to be taken - that belief improves that person's life, and/or improves the world as a result.

That's not what that statement means. It means that it's not believing that causes problems, it is the decision of a person what to believe, making the person responsible for their own actions. In other words these same people that use belief to disgrace God, they are responsible not the belief itself. I hope that clears it up for you.

Thank you - I believe it does.  But that seems to be a radically different statement to the one you made.  You now appear to be saying that "Not Believing in God is a Bad Thing".  Would that be correct?

That may be what you intended to say all along - but it is an ENTIRELY different question to address. 

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...and it may possibly be possible to define "god" in such a way that the statement "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" become valid (subject perhaps to the causation of unhappiness mentioned above).  But, it DOES require firstly that that god be pretty clearly defined - something that Junebug certainly has not done.  I would suggest that before we can legitimately discuss whether "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing", Junebug first needs to clearly define "god".

For the purpose of this discussion God is Creator. In other words-Believing in Intelligent Creation is not a bad thing. I hope that clears it up for ya Anf.

No.  I'm afraid not.  Because (in light of what you appear to have said above), what you are really saying here is "Not Believing in Intelligent Creation is a Bad Thing".

Explain why, please?  How - precisely - is not believing in Intelligent Creation a bad thing for me?

I believe you use this evidence thing as a shield. If we're really going to do scientific experiments we need a controlled environment. I think the only way to know God is through your soul. I believe the fact that we are sitting here talking on this forum is evidence of intelligence versus luck. I'm not here to prove to you God exists, that's up to you to decide. I'm here to say it's not a bad thing if ya do!

I use "this evidence thing" as a simple test to see whether the person I am talking to has the slightest rationale for any of the dribble that comes out of their mouths.  As I've said to you several times now - and as you have avoided answering - what makes your statement "Not Believing in Intelligent Creation is a Bad Thing" any more worthy of consideration than the statement "Not Believing in John Johnson's Magical Sock is a Bad Thing". 

Unless you can provide ANY kind of evidence that means your statement has more substance behind it than John Johnson's, there is no more reason to address it or give it one iota more consideration.

But by all means ignore - again - any request to back up what you are saying.....though if you have no intention of demonstrating the proof of your claims, I am rather at a loss as to why you are so concerned in getting us to agree with the benefits of accepting them.  But sure - let's stick with the hypothetical claim that "not believing in the unproven concept of Intelligent Creation is a bad thing" (because that is what you are asking.

So I repeat:  how - precisely - is not believing in the unproven concept of Intelligent Creation for me?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #354 on: April 19, 2013, 08:27:36 AM »
And secondly, you must be able to demonstrate that your definition of god is correct, and my definition is wrong.  And - sorry to say - to do that, I rather suspect you will need to show some evidence.....

That is a subject for another thread.

Just to clarify: are you saying that you ARE prepared to demonstrate your definition of god is correct, and provide evidence to support it, in another thread?  If so I would be more than happy to discuss it with you in the debate room: the benefit to you there is that you would only be discussing it with me, and not have to field umpteen questions from several other participants.

Shall I request that a debate be set up for us Junebug?  Or are you, perhaps, using "this is not the thread to discuss evidence" as a shield.....?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 08:29:45 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #355 on: April 19, 2013, 08:29:41 AM »
My son: (deadpan) It wasn't God. I went and hid in the library.
I don't find it amusing at all.  First off, nobody should be bullied in the first place, and second, he shouldn't have to hide to avoid it.  I also don't think your wife's prayer had anything to do with it, because hiding from bullies (in a place they don't normally go or can't easily get to) is a very common reaction to being bullied.

You see, the bullying didn't actually stop.  Your son just wasn't around to be bullied.  The bullies will just harass others and wait for him to show up again.  Unless the bullies themselves change, or your son can figure out how to keep them from targeting him, it won't stop, and praying won't help.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #356 on: April 19, 2013, 08:32:20 AM »
It is still an off topic reply.
Junebug,

Mods will decide what is off-topic and what is not. Please reply and explain cogently. If you feel that a post is off-topic, then you should report it. However, the tradition at WWGHA is one of great tolerance when it comes to questions within any topic; we find that this prevents question dodging and irrational statements.

GB Mod
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Razel

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #357 on: April 19, 2013, 08:32:35 AM »
Only sloppy thinking around here is your own, and here's why. When you condescend, make fun, of something that is of importance to someone you're being provocative.

1. Respect has to be earned, not demanded. 
2. Attacks on your position or beliefs are not personal attacks against you, or Christians.  If we're not allowed to do that, then we may as well not debate.

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You're giving you're interpretation which is not the same as me saying it. PLease.

That's ironic, considering this thread's premise is based on a misinterpretation you had on the people here.

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That is a subject for another thread. I believe you use this evidence thing as a shield. If we're really going to do scientific experiments we need a controlled environment. I think the only way to know God is through your soul.

I think you missed the entire point of this place.

Online junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #358 on: April 19, 2013, 08:35:11 AM »
Matter of fact I bet there are more people in prison that don't believe in God than do. I'm gonna do some research on it and get back to you on that one. A lot of prison reform does occur when the prisoner accepts God into his/her life, supporting the claim that believing in God is not a bad thing.

Sorry, junebug, but the facts don't bear this out. Very few atheists commit crimes. And belief in god does not make people behave. The vast majority of US prisoners are god-believers. Also, lower income folks are much more likely to believe in god and to end up in jail. Correlation, but not necessarily causation.....

There are many reasons people in jail "take god into their hearts" but in my experience the main ones are: even with the cutback in social services like drug treatment and anger management to prisoners, religious groups (like bible study) are still offered; going to religious services is one way to get out of your cell for an hour or two; regular attendance at religious services looks good at parole hearings; bibles, Qurans and other religious books are freely available and unrestricted by law.

So, it may not be that god caused the prisoner to reform. But humans who think that god caused the prisioner to reform are more likely to let him/her out of jail. The high re-arrest and re-incarceration rates suggest that god needs to try a bit harder with prisoners.

Or maybe god should just stay out of it. The regions of the US with the highest levels of belief in god have the highest crime rates and largest prision populations. Also the highest teen pregnancies, divorce rates, family violence rates, unemployment and poverty rates.[1]

The same thing holds around the world. The countries with the lowest levels of god-belief, regardless of religion, are the safer, nicer places to live with the lowest crime rates, highest education rates, best health care stats, lowest infant mortality rates, etc. Japan and Denmark are two examples of very successful countries where almost nobody believes in any gods.
 1. And the highest internet porn consumption! Forbidden fruit and all that.

I did say I was going to do some research on it. I did find less than 1% atheist prison population. It wasn't the best thing I've said, that's fer sure.

I think God is staying out of.

You know I would give God up if I thought it would bring the world to peace, I just don't think it will.  People should be allowed to follow where their heart leads or else we have no freedom left and w/o freedom you can't have peace. That's why I stress to you I strongly feel the way to a more peaceful existence is to change hearts, not minds.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline JeffPT

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #359 on: April 19, 2013, 08:42:17 AM »
If there is no difference between prayer not being answered and prayer being answered, then you're literally saying nothing meaningful at all.

Prayer in and of itself is an act of Love therefore it is a moral thing to do for another. The question was not what moral things can God do, but what moral act can man do.

It is still an off topic reply.

Why can't an atheist pray? We can say and wish for the exact same things as you.  We just don't do it because we know it doesn't do anything. And when it comes to 'acts of love' it can certainly be argued that an atheist is far more likely to do something which has actual benefit, because we know prayer is useless while you don't.

If you're in a car that starts to skid off the road, who do you want in the car... The person who says Jesus take the wheel, or the one who try's to steer it back on the road? Yeah, I thought so.

Please God cure cancer. There, I prayed. Useful, eh?

Whenever events that are purported to occur in our best interest are as numerous as the events that will just as soon kill us, then intent is hard, if not impossible to assert. NDT

Online junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #360 on: April 19, 2013, 08:43:57 AM »
It is still an off topic reply.
Junebug,

Mods will decide what is off-topic and what is not. Please reply and explain cogently. If you feel that a post is off-topic, then you should report it. However, the tradition at WWGHA is one of great tolerance when it comes to questions within any topic; we find that this prevents question dodging and irrational statements.

GB Mod


okie dokie GB, i'm not going to report anybody to a mod though.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #361 on: April 19, 2013, 09:02:39 AM »
Only sloppy thinking around here is your own, and here's why. When you condescend, make fun, of something that is of importance to someone you're being provocative.

1. Respect has to be earned, not demanded. 
2. Attacks on your position or beliefs are not personal attacks against you, or Christians.  If we're not allowed to do that, then we may as well not debate.

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You're giving you're interpretation which is not the same as me saying it. PLease.

That's ironic, considering this thread's premise is based on a misinterpretation you had on the people here.

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That is a subject for another thread. I believe you use this evidence thing as a shield. If we're really going to do scientific experiments we need a controlled environment. I think the only way to know God is through your soul.

I think you missed the entire point of this place.

That's the impression I was left with after long, long discussions. My impression of atheists was actually better before I entered into this forum. I have met a few nice people but for the most part I find you most intolerant of a person with a different perspective than your own and you use scientific "evidence" as a shield. God is not something science can experiment on, God is found inside in our souls. Do you really think if there is God that you could reach God through scientific experiments? If there is a force that powerful in the universe it would not come at our beckon call. You have to earn the right to meet God. All my opinion.


So what is the point? I mean that sincerely.

I think the point is to try and make people feel stupid for believing in God. That if you just show people how stupid they are they'll come to their senses and stop the irrationality of it all.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #362 on: April 19, 2013, 09:03:06 AM »
  People should be allowed to follow where their heart leads or else we have no freedom left and w/o freedom you can't have peace.

Yeah? What if peoples hearts are filled with false, irrational, violent misconceptions? Then what?

How about if people followed the truth? How about if people used more logic and reason? Does that impair freedom? Does that impair peace?

No, it does not. Silly beliefs, and irrational thought, and ignorance impair peace.

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That's why I stress to you I strongly feel the way to a more peaceful existence is to change hearts, not minds.

Heart transplants all around! Yay!  :D

We think with our minds, JB. It's a fact. Education is the key to peace. Knowledge. Rational thought. You know, all those things humans are no good at.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #363 on: April 19, 2013, 09:10:59 AM »
When you condescend, make fun, of something that is of importance to someone you're being provocative.

I wasn't insulting you, I was describing you.


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I would imagine you receive immense pleasure from making "fun" of Christians, although there are many different types of belief, you do pick on Christians.

I'm not "making fun" of christians, I'm merely asking questions, requesting evidence, and pointing out errors.  If, in the process, the christian looks like a fool, then they have the choice of altering their position and dropping their false beliefs, or holding them in spite of their bad reasons.  Life is a series of choices.

The reason why we are discussing christianity (or "picking on" them as you so impoverishly state), is that it is the dominant religion in North America.  It would very odd for me feel compelled to debate Shintoism now wouldn't it?


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You were blessed with much intelligence, guess that don't leave much room for courtesy.

Please watch:









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...there were too many people in Jerusalem not to know if Jesus actually died on the cross.

Yet, there was not one word mentioned about it at the time.  Your "logic" is equivalent as follows:  Let's pretend that I make the claim that aliens landed in Bangkok in 1972, leaving a book with the secrets of the universe.  And what is my evidence for this claim?  Well, there's just so many people there at the time, there's no way they couldn't have noticed!

If you see how my reason & evidence is flawed, hopefully you will also see that flaw in yours.


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It's my belief that God guides me when I study. That's why I do things like thank God for my wisdom because I believe God blessed me with it.

Yes, everyone believes that they have their own secret decoder ring.  Unfortunately, all you're doing is projecting yourself as god.  It is so incredibly arrogant and smug, yet you're not even aware of it.

Isn't it ironic? One of the favorite themes of the Christian Conversion Corps is that, if we don't worship a deity, we must be worshiping ourselves.  Yet it seems that this is precisely what, in fact, the theists themselves are doing.  They worship a god with the same views, ideals, even personality traits as themselves - the god in the mirror.  (Rosa Williams)

Looking for Jesus in history is like looking down a well: You see only your own reflection.  (Albert Schweitzer)








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...letting emotions rule your thinking leaves you at a disadvantage.  The only emotion I want others to see is JOY, PEACE and LOVE.

I'll give you a few minutes to see if you see something wrong with that statement.  (I'll help by underlining it).





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Do you even have a purpose for being here other than getting a good laugh at others expense?

Yes.  I'm doing my miniscule little part in opposing supernatural religious beliefs.  I think humanity will do much better without it.  That's why.




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Is this really what you want to see society turn into?

Free of false, supernatural beliefs?  Yes.



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You are practicing prejudice star, you hate a group of people, and I'm sorry but prejudice is something I'm strongly against.

It appears that now you've completely abandoned rational thought.  I don't hate you or any group of people, I'm merely discussing your wild, fantastical assertions about reality on a public forum specifically designed for that.  See how quickly y'all play the victim card?



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You seem to not have any interest at all in making the world a better place and that sucks!

As already explained, making this world a better place is my prime reason for being here.



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If you want to know if you're pleasing God, just look and see if the person beside you is wearing a smile.

My wife has nearly a permanent smile, and my friends smile a lot when around me, but perhaps that's not because I'm pleasing your god, but for some other naturally explained reason.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2013, 09:16:03 AM by Star Stuff »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #364 on: April 19, 2013, 09:17:56 AM »

That's the impression I was left with after long, long discussions. My impression of atheists was actually better before I entered into this forum. I have met a few nice people but for the most part I find you most intolerant of a person with a different perspective than your own and you use scientific "evidence" as a shield. God is not something science can experiment on, God is found inside in our souls. Do you really think if there is God that you could reach God through scientific experiments? If there is a force that powerful in the universe it would not come at our beckon call. You have to earn the right to meet God. All my opinion.

Its a shame that you feel that way, June. On the whole people want to understand why you think the way you do about god and about this spirit that you say is inside each of us. Most people here have tried religion - often for a long time - and have concluded that there is not a god and that there is not a soul / spirit in each of us. understanding how you think could help not only you, if there really is not a god, or us, if there is actually a god.

As for being able to measure or detect a god, well, I think, in principle, it is doable. it all depends what we tackle. A study or two has been done into prayer and the effects of prayer and recently this. Of course, if a proposed god has effects on matter - even the matter of the brain - then in principle one ought to be able to determine firstly that it had happened and how the energy to do it arrived in the brain. It would be a fiddly experiment to undertake and quite expensive but the fact os that in principle it could be done.

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So what is the point? I mean that sincerely.

I think the point is to try and make people feel stupid for believing in God. That if you just show people how stupid they are they'll come to their senses and stop the irrationality of it all.

No, I disagree with you. The purpose here is to engage in discussion and exchange of ideas. Sure there are always some who abuse this sort of interaction and it can amount to maing peopl look stupid but that is not the agenda of most people here.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #365 on: April 19, 2013, 09:24:55 AM »
If there is no difference between prayer not being answered and prayer being answered, then you're literally saying nothing meaningful at all.

Prayer in and of itself is an act of Love therefore it is a moral thing to do for another. The question was not what moral things can God do, but what moral act can man do.

It is still an off topic reply.

Why can't an atheist pray? We can say and wish for the exact same things as you.  We just don't do it because we know it doesn't do anything. And when it comes to 'acts of love' it can certainly be argued that an atheist is far more likely to do something which has actual benefit, because we know prayer is useless while you don't.

If you're in a car that starts to skid off the road, who do you want in the car... The person who says Jesus take the wheel, or the one who try's to steer it back on the road? Yeah, I thought so.

Please God cure cancer. There, I prayed. Useful, eh?

I don't think you shouldn't be testing God when you pray, then you're prayer is for yourself.  Just saying. :D

If you're referring to the Carrie Underwood song I think you missed the meaning of it. She only asked Jesus to take the wheel because she ran out of steam. She's saying it's too much for me, I need you and she was all alone. There wasn't a second person in the car to take the wheel, she was on her own except her belief that He was by her side, so she doesn't feel so alone and powerless.

Not much different from my own story. I was so alone and it was there that I started to develope my faith.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Petey

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #366 on: April 19, 2013, 09:29:47 AM »
I think the point is to try and make people feel stupid for believing in God. That if you just show people how stupid they are they'll come to their senses and stop the irrationality of it all.

There's a difference between making a person look stupid and making a belief look stupid. 

Generally speaking, any arguments or evidence presented won't make a dent in the believer's worldview.  There is, however, the hope that a fence-sitter following along will realize the "irrationality of it all", and not adopt false beliefs in the first place.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
-– Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

Offline shnozzola

Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #367 on: April 19, 2013, 09:33:32 AM »
Junebug,
   I believe I understand where you come from in your view of christinity.  It may be similar to the  view I grew up with that my mom and sisters still share.   The teachings of Jesus, such as the parable of the good Samaritan, are basically the main theme of the christianity I grew up with. I will be first to claim it as SPAG, rejecting the inconsistencies and keeping the parts our family liked.  Hell, the resurrection isn't important to my family.  Blasphemy, I tell you!   ;D  Anyway, that form of christianity seems pretty harmless IMO, since my christian sister's marriage to  my atheist brother in law seems to work just fine.

However, don't feel your belief in a god should be somehow spared here at WWGHA.  This is the internet, and that would be boring -  atheists are tired of being kicked around (and killed) by the many kind and loving christians.
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
  The real holy trinity:  onion, celery, and bell pepper ~  all Cajun Chefs

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #368 on: April 19, 2013, 09:43:58 AM »
Star Stuff,

This is my response to reply #363. Whether or not you have been insulting is up for me to decide. I interpret how your words make me feel.

Just more insulting stuff. I am not your victim starry skies because you're hurting yourself not me.

Words of Jesus's sacrifice have been passed down for 2013 years and counting as they should be.

Taunt, taunt and more taunting.

Nope don't see nothing wrong with it at all. When you put them together with the rest of the sentence it makes perfect sense to me.

You're doing a fantastic job as an oppostioner.

I do not think I've got anything wrong? That's how you come across to me. You care more about what you believe than you care about people.

I think you're coming up short in that department.

Okay.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #369 on: April 19, 2013, 09:51:17 AM »

That's the impression I was left with after long, long discussions. My impression of atheists was actually better before I entered into this forum. I have met a few nice people but for the most part I find you most intolerant of a person with a different perspective than your own and you use scientific "evidence" as a shield. God is not something science can experiment on, God is found inside in our souls. Do you really think if there is God that you could reach God through scientific experiments? If there is a force that powerful in the universe it would not come at our beckon call. You have to earn the right to meet God. All my opinion.

Its a shame that you feel that way, June. On the whole people want to understand why you think the way you do about god and about this spirit that you say is inside each of us. Most people here have tried religion - often for a long time - and have concluded that there is not a god and that there is not a soul / spirit in each of us. understanding how you think could help not only you, if there really is not a god, or us, if there is actually a god.

As for being able to measure or detect a god, well, I think, in principle, it is doable. it all depends what we tackle. A study or two has been done into prayer and the effects of prayer and recently this. Of course, if a proposed god has effects on matter - even the matter of the brain - then in principle one ought to be able to determine firstly that it had happened and how the energy to do it arrived in the brain. It would be a fiddly experiment to undertake and quite expensive but the fact os that in principle it could be done.

Quote
So what is the point? I mean that sincerely.

I think the point is to try and make people feel stupid for believing in God. That if you just show people how stupid they are they'll come to their senses and stop the irrationality of it all.

No, I disagree with you. The purpose here is to engage in discussion and exchange of ideas. Sure there are always some who abuse this sort of interaction and it can amount to maing peopl look stupid but that is not the agenda of most people here.

That is my impression. You can't really exchange ideas when you're censored by evidence. I feel like you only want to hear what I can prove and care less about how I feel. Luckily thanks to belief in my life I'm not hurt. I really feel more empathy than anything.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #370 on: April 19, 2013, 09:55:48 AM »
I think the point is to try and make people feel stupid for believing in God. That if you just show people how stupid they are they'll come to their senses and stop the irrationality of it all.

There's a difference between making a person look stupid and making a belief look stupid. 

Generally speaking, any arguments or evidence presented won't make a dent in the believer's worldview.  There is, however, the hope that a fence-sitter following along will realize the "irrationality of it all", and not adopt false beliefs in the first place.

Well for some reason I feel more rational now than ever and no there's not.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #371 on: April 19, 2013, 10:05:16 AM »
Junebug,
   I believe I understand where you come from in your view of christinity.  It may be similar to the  view I grew up with that my mom and sisters still share.   The teachings of Jesus, such as the parable of the good Samaritan, are basically the main theme of the christianity I grew up with. I will be first to claim it as SPAG, rejecting the inconsistencies and keeping the parts our family liked.  Hell, the resurrection isn't important to my family.  Blasphemy, I tell you!   ;D  Anyway, that form of christianity seems pretty harmless IMO, since my christian sister's marriage to  my atheist brother in law seems to work just fine.

However, don't feel your belief in a god should be somehow spared here at WWGHA.  This is the internet, and that would be boring -  atheists are tired of being kicked around (and killed) by the many kind and loving christians.

Shno really? I don't have a form of Christianity.

Spared? sounds like I'm being prepared for slaughter.

I believe I'm going to have to ask you to back that statement up dude. that's far out. i'm not going to respond w/o collaboration.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Petey

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #372 on: April 19, 2013, 10:18:41 AM »
You can't really exchange ideas when you're censored by evidence.

That's the first sig-worthy sentence I've seen in a while.
He never pays attention, he always knows the answer, and he can never tell you how he knows. We can't keep thrashing him. He is a bad example to the other pupils. There's no educating a smart boy.
-– Terry Pratchett, Thief of Time

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #373 on: April 19, 2013, 10:34:57 AM »
"Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" is the proposition - a pretty bald statement.

It means in effect that a person who believes in god will act in a better way as a result, I suppose.  That's the way I will presume the statement is to be taken - that belief improves that person's life, and/or improves the world as a result.

That's not what that statement means. It means that it's not believing that causes problems, it is the decision of a person what to believe, making the person responsible for their own actions. In other words these same people that use belief to disgrace God, they are responsible not the belief itself. I hope that clears it up for you.

How in the world do you come up with this stuff? Could somebody please help me out here! Just because I say BIGINABT, doesn't mean I'm saying Not believing is. I mean really come on now!!!

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Thank you - I believe it does.  But that seems to be a radically different statement to the one you made.  You now appear to be saying that "Not Believing in God is a Bad Thing".  Would that be correct?

NO!NO!NO! it's is not correct.


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No.  I'm afraid not.  Because (in light of what you appear to have said above), what you are really saying here is "Not Believing in Intelligent Creation is a Bad Thing".

Explain why, please?  How - precisely - is not believing in Intelligent Creation a bad thing for me?

I think you should explain how you come up with this stuff. That's why I don't ass-u-me things.

Quote
I use "this evidence thing" as a simple test to see whether the person I am talking to has the slightest rationale for any of the dribble that comes out of their mouths.  As I've said to you several times now - and as you have avoided answering - what makes your statement "Not Believing in Intelligent Creation is a Bad Thing" any more worthy of consideration than the statement "Not Believing in John Johnson's Magical Sock is a Bad Thing". 

Unless you can provide ANY kind of evidence that means your statement has more substance behind it than John Johnson's, there is no more reason to address it or give it one iota more consideration.

But by all means ignore - again - any request to back up what you are saying.....though if you have no intention of demonstrating the proof of your claims, I am rather at a loss as to why you are so concerned in getting us to agree with the benefits of accepting them.  But sure - let's stick with the hypothetical claim that "not believing in the unproven concept of Intelligent Creation is a bad thing" (because that is what you are asking.

So I repeat:  how - precisely - is not believing in the unproven concept of Intelligent Creation for me?

I have offered many occasions where belief is not a bad thing. What on earth are ya talking about Anf? I believe that after all my replies to your questions that is an off based accusation. Are you wanting evidence that belief exists?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #374 on: April 19, 2013, 10:36:16 AM »
I hope everyone has a Great Day!

Gotta go for now.

Still waiting on you Jag.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #375 on: April 19, 2013, 10:42:47 AM »
With all due respect, junebug, you can call your beliefs whatever you want, but they are Christian beliefs because you believe in Jesus Christ.  You just belong to a specific sect of Christianity - population 1.

Regarding some of your other posts, what does it matter that the stories of the Gospels have been passed down for nearly 2000 years[1]?  The story of the Iliad and the Odyssey are hundreds of years older than that.  If a story is mythical or fictional to begin with, it remains so no matter how old it is.

And another thing.  You challenged Star Stuff for being more concerned with beliefs, rather than people.  Yet, you are trying to give your concern for people a religious spin - you're doing it because you think it pleases your god, rather than because it's a good thing to do in and of itself.  You write threads like this, arguing that particular beliefs are not bad.  You yourself are giving beliefs a higher priority than people.

If people are more important than beliefs, then why are you worrying about your beliefs to begin with, let alone trying to spread them?
 1. by the way, the stories of the Gospels are not yet 2000 years old - you cannot date them based on the Christian calendar or the presumed birth of Jesus, you have to base them on when they were first told

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #376 on: April 19, 2013, 10:57:12 AM »
I hope everyone has a Great Day!

Gotta go for now.

Still waiting on you Jag.

Yes jb, and I apologize for not getting to this yet. I've got a lot of homework demanding my attention, but will work on a post on the side. I'll try to get it done still today, but I'm unwilling to commit to that. As soon as I can, I promise.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."