Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 32296 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #319 on: April 18, 2013, 03:34:37 PM »
I'd like to repeat something I said before - junebug's belief isn't necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

What ultimately matters in life is what people do, not what they believe or think or use to rationalize their actions.

I really like that statement to a point. I will argue that belief in my life has been a very positive experience for me and for the people I've encountered. I definitely agree with the rest. You chose what to believe, who to believe and you base those judgements on what your morality is.

Good One!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #320 on: April 18, 2013, 03:49:05 PM »
I just want to take a second to say Darwin's are so immature. That my desire to please God allows me to overlook this childlike behaviour, to care about the individuals participating, therefor once again supporting my statement, belief is not a bad thing.  :)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Samothec

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #321 on: April 18, 2013, 03:55:57 PM »
Well you all are talking about a minute minority of the population.  My heart goes out to people suffering from the disease. I still say it is the disease that causes the irrational behaviour not the belief. There are people with mental disorders that do not believe in God, they do not hear God speak, and they behave violently. I just don't see how this is a good example of belief being a bad thing.
When you have a mental illness that distorts your view of reality, the further from reality you start (like believing in someone/something that doesn't exist) the more difficult it is to determine what is and is not real. If you believe bigfoot exists then bigfoot appears you will react as if it is real because of your belief. If you don't believe in bigfoot and bigfoot appears then you will try to react as if it's not there since you know it can't be there.

Yes, it is a small portion of the population and an extreme example. But consider for a moment that if belief allows someone with a mental illness to more readily react with violence rather than resisting the violence, doesn't that suggest the same is possible with someone who isn't mentally ill?

And history shows that this is indeed the case. Take a group of believers and get them riled up for a cause they believe is just (even if it is not) then you have willing fighters for your cause. Fighters as in combatants willing to kill. Like with 9-11.

If all believers were resistant to violence then belief would not be the big problem it currently is. You have remained fairly calm in this thread with only minor moments of exasperation. I wish all believers were more like you in this respect. Things would be so much better.


As for the Darwins - at least people's names are on them.      (Eliminated the redundant portion.)
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 04:06:25 PM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #322 on: April 18, 2013, 03:57:49 PM »
I just want to take a second to say Darwin's are so immature. That my desire to please God allows me to overlook this childlike behaviour, to care about the individuals participating, therefor once again supporting my statement, belief is not a bad thing.  :)
LOL

on another site i frequent... not one about religion. they have "rep" and I hold a opposite stance as the largest group on the board and my "rep" suffers tremendously. Its just one of those thangs, nah mean

Online sun_king

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #323 on: April 18, 2013, 04:01:31 PM »
I just want to take a second to say Darwin's are so immature. That my desire to please God allows me to overlook this childlike behaviour, to care about the individuals participating, therefor once again supporting my statement, belief is not a bad thing.  :)

Sadly this just proves the opposite. The Darwins have a purpose and you choose to overlook it dismissing it with a personal opinion. I am not sure why god will be pleased if you overlooked a Darwin, it was meant to be looked into.

Belief is a bad thing if it diverts you from what should be done.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #324 on: April 18, 2013, 04:13:02 PM »
So who are these people who say that when they pray, "God speaks to them."?

I don't know any personally. In my life it is through my soul,my heart, not through my ears. I feel it I don't hear it. I don't know if I believe people actually hear God. In my experience  people making such claims have an alterior motive, and it's not to teach people about God. And that is my opinion.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #325 on: April 18, 2013, 04:13:52 PM »
Who knows what changes have been made to what Jesus taught.

and then this:

Quote
I Love Jesus Christ. I think what He did for mankind should be forever remembered and honoured....






Does anyone else see the problem here?

Do you have any intelligent thoughts to bring to the topic. hehe

Try as you may to anger me it's not going to happen. I'm as cool as a cucumber.

I'm not trying to anger you, I'm pointing out your sloppy thinking.

In one breath you state that we can't know what this Jesus character said or taught, and in the next breath you say that you love what he did.  Please admit how messed up that is.

Being cool as a cucumber doesn't make you correct, clever, intelligent, or any other desirable attribute.  In fact, it's starting to look like while you have this facade of peace & love and can't we all just get along, you're more mule-headed than anyone else here.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #326 on: April 18, 2013, 04:48:10 PM »
I just want to take a second to say Darwin's are so immature. That my desire to please God allows me to overlook this childlike behaviour, to care about the individuals participating, therefor once again supporting my statement, belief is not a bad thing.  :)

Sadly this just proves the opposite. The Darwins have a purpose and you choose to overlook it dismissing it with a personal opinion. I am not sure why god will be pleased if you overlooked a Darwin, it was meant to be looked into.

Belief is a bad thing if it diverts you from what should be done.

Did science not prove evolution, space travel, and the list goes on and on and on...If you're going to change the heart of man you must do that by example. You all have said it here many times that we do what we do because we do it.

You know the future might find itself without God, but for now people want to believe. They want to. Not everybody but a whole whole lot of people want to believe. As long as there is mystery to life and there will be until we can look past death with our eyes to see what is behind that cold dark door, people will want to believe.IMO. To me it's harmless it is not a bad thing.

I just want to point out that I've been a victim of religious prejudice, that is not a good thing, but it isn't the core of belief that causes them to be prejudicial, they would be prejudice whether they believed or not because that is what's in their hearts. That my desire to please God motivates me to forgive those prejudice people, therefor making it not a bad thing.

Sorry I even brought the Darwin thing up.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #327 on: April 18, 2013, 05:06:45 PM »
Matter of fact I bet there are more people in prison that don't believe in God than do. I'm gonna do some research on it and get back to you on that one. A lot of prison reform does occur when the prisoner accepts God into his/her life, supporting the claim that believing in God is not a bad thing.

Sorry, junebug, but the facts don't bear this out. Very few atheists commit crimes. And belief in god does not make people behave. The vast majority of US prisoners are god-believers. Also, lower income folks are much more likely to believe in god and to end up in jail. Correlation, but not necessarily causation.....

There are many reasons people in jail "take god into their hearts" but in my experience the main ones are: even with the cutback in social services like drug treatment and anger management to prisoners, religious groups (like bible study) are still offered; going to religious services is one way to get out of your cell for an hour or two; regular attendance at religious services looks good at parole hearings; bibles, Qurans and other religious books are freely available and unrestricted by law.

So, it may not be that god caused the prisoner to reform. But humans who think that god caused the prisioner to reform are more likely to let him/her out of jail. The high re-arrest and re-incarceration rates suggest that god needs to try a bit harder with prisoners.

Or maybe god should just stay out of it. The regions of the US with the highest levels of belief in god have the highest crime rates and largest prision populations. Also the highest teen pregnancies, divorce rates, family violence rates, unemployment and poverty rates.[1]

The same thing holds around the world. The countries with the lowest levels of god-belief, regardless of religion, are the safer, nicer places to live with the lowest crime rates, highest education rates, best health care stats, lowest infant mortality rates, etc. Japan and Denmark are two examples of very successful countries where almost nobody believes in any gods.
 1. And the highest internet porn consumption! Forbidden fruit and all that.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #328 on: April 18, 2013, 05:22:06 PM »
The regions of the US with the highest levels of belief in god have the highest crime rates and largest prision populations.

Such as the southern states?

Belief in God does not equate to a life transformed by Christ.

My friend moved to the southern USA for work. He told me he attended more than a dozen church services before he found a church where the service amounted to more than repeated shouts of 'Hallelujah', and where the bible was actually taught and discussed.

(Insert the usual "One true Christiantm " joke at your leisure. It never stops being funny)

 
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #329 on: April 18, 2013, 05:33:15 PM »
The regions of the US with the highest levels of belief in god have the highest crime rates and largest prision populations.

Such as the southern states?

Belief in God does not equate to a life transformed by Christ.

My friend moved to the southern USA for work. He told me he attended more than a dozen church services before he found a church where the service amounted to more than repeated shouts of 'Hallelujah', and where the bible was actually taught and discussed.

(Insert the usual "One true Christiantm " joke at your leisure. It never stops being funny)

Yes, the One True Christian argument fits here...

but instead, doesnt Westboro Baptist teach the bible?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #330 on: April 18, 2013, 05:39:11 PM »
^^ From what I've seen, extremely small sections of it and extremely poorly.

Have you had a chance to re-consider those verses yet?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Online sun_king

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #331 on: April 18, 2013, 05:52:30 PM »
<snip>
I just want to point out that I've been a victim of religious prejudice, that is not a good thing, but it isn't the core of belief that causes them to be prejudicial, they would be prejudice whether they believed or not because that is what's in their hearts. That my desire to please God motivates me to forgive those prejudice people, therefor making it not a bad thing.
<snip>

The bolded statement above brings to doubt if your forgiving is from your own choosing. For me, it seems that you are forced to forgive, which implies that its not a true act. Sorry if I am blunt, it seems to be a selfish act, your forgiving is just an instrument to gain approval from your deity. Imagine if you said "I forgive them because I want to, I know that it makes me a better person to understand and accept the failings of others".

As I said earlier, it is still a bad thing if your belief does not let you be what you can be. Forgiving someone because you can is a lot different from forgiving someone because you should. One is driven by noble thoughts, the other is pure business.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #332 on: April 18, 2013, 06:22:10 PM »
^^ From what I've seen, extremely small sections of it and extremely poorly.

Have you had a chance to re-consider those verses yet?
I responded to you in the other thread...

You took my post out of context. And of course interpreted it wrong.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #333 on: April 18, 2013, 06:23:45 PM »
^^ From what I've seen, extremely small sections of it and extremely poorly.

Have you had a chance to re-consider those verses yet?
I responded to you in the other thread...

You took my post out of context. And of course interpreted it wrong.

Is that a serious answer?
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #334 on: April 18, 2013, 06:39:44 PM »
^^ From what I've seen, extremely small sections of it and extremely poorly.

Have you had a chance to re-consider those verses yet?
I responded to you in the other thread...

You took my post out of context. And of course interpreted it wrong.

Is that a serious answer?
Yes. Is it serious when Christians use it?

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #335 on: April 18, 2013, 06:44:21 PM »
Yes. I demonstrated how the passage you brought up did not mean what you said it meant. (that's what i thought you were saying, anyway)

Now, you seem to be suggesting you may have meant something else. Can you clarify how I mis-understood you?

(we should probably contunue this back in the relevant thread)
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #336 on: April 18, 2013, 07:05:34 PM »
Yes. I demonstrated how the passage you brought up did not mean what you said it meant. (that's what i thought you were saying, anyway)

Now, you seem to be suggesting you may have meant something else. Can you clarify how I mis-understood you?

(we should probably contunue this back in the relevant thread)

Well, 1st you have to try to know me in your heart and love me. By doing that you will have to accept that it is impossible for me to be wrong. If it still appears to seem that what I said is wrong, you should then just accept it as correct, but mysterious. It is through that lens that you must read my every post. Then it will all make sense.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #337 on: April 18, 2013, 07:19:29 PM »
Hilarious, certainly, but you're overlooking the fact that I have not suggested that you consider my understanding of the verse because of those things. I asked that you consider my understanding based on the context of the passage. I don't mind if you aren't interested in doing that. Just say so.

The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #338 on: April 18, 2013, 07:26:05 PM »
Hilarious, certainly, but you're overlooking the fact that I have not suggested that you consider my understanding of the verse because of those things. I asked that you consider my understanding based on the context of the passage. I don't mind if you aren't interested in doing that. Just say so.
But if you would consider what I just posted, about it being impossible for me to be wrong, doesnt that make your post automatically wrong if it does not coincide with my post? Thus you should re-evaluate your post and change it accordingly to fit in with what I said, no?

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #339 on: April 18, 2013, 08:30:46 PM »
Quote
I haven't dodged one single question, not one!

Sure you have.  I asked you this yesterday and you fully ignored it:


List one moral action, or kind thing said by a god-believer that could not be done or said by a non believer in gods.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #340 on: April 18, 2013, 10:06:18 PM »
Well you all are talking about a minute minority of the population.  My heart goes out to people suffering from the disease. I still say it is the disease that causes the irrational behaviour not the belief. There are people with mental disorders that do not believe in God, they do not hear God speak, and they behave violently. I just don't see how this is a good example of belief being a bad thing.
When you have a mental illness that distorts your view of reality, the further from reality you start (like believing in someone/something that doesn't exist) the more difficult it is to determine what is and is not real. If you believe bigfoot exists then bigfoot appears you will react as if it is real because of your belief. If you don't believe in bigfoot and bigfoot appears then you will try to react as if it's not there since you know it can't be there.

Yes, it is a small portion of the population and an extreme example. But consider for a moment that if belief allows someone with a mental illness to more readily react with violence rather than resisting the violence, doesn't that suggest the same is possible with someone who isn't mentally ill?

And history shows that this is indeed the case. Take a group of believers and get them riled up for a cause they believe is just (even if it is not) then you have willing fighters for your cause. Fighters as in combatants willing to kill. Like with 9-11.

If all believers were resistant to violence then belief would not be the big problem it currently is. You have remained fairly calm in this thread with only minor moments of exasperation. I wish all believers were more like you in this respect. Things would be so much better.


As for the Darwins - at least people's names are on them.      (Eliminated the redundant portion.)

If your mental illness distorts reality, how can they unreality state be contributed to anything but the source of that break with reality. I don't think a violent mental pt. has a choice. That's why they are not held accountable for their crimes. I just don't think we should be using hypothetical actions of a mentally I'll person to judge how belief works ina stable mInd.!

Harder to type on this phone. Sorry guys.:
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #341 on: April 18, 2013, 10:14:21 PM »
Quote
I haven't dodged one single question, not one!

Sure you have.  I asked you this yesterday and you fully ignored it:


List one moral action, or kind thing said by a god-believer that could not be done or said by a non believer in gods.

Of course you would say I dodged it. I didn't see it. I do the best I can.

To answer your question, pray. A nonbeliever can not pray.  Prayer comforts.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #342 on: April 18, 2013, 10:24:09 PM »
Goodnight everybody.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #343 on: April 18, 2013, 10:24:12 PM »

Of course you would say I dodged it. I didn't see it. I do the best I can.

To answer your question, pray. A nonbeliever can not pray.  Prayer comforts.

Looking back at post #239, I fail to see how you didn't see it.  I even made the text bold.

You didn't answer my question:

List one moral action, or kind thing said by a god-believer that could not be done or said by a non believer in gods.

Praying is not a moral action or thing said.  It is merely talking to the air, or an imaginary friend.  Now you're really dodging.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 10:26:19 PM by Star Stuff »
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #344 on: April 18, 2013, 10:27:55 PM »

Well, no, it wouldnt work both ways. Good people could be better in that when they normally wouldve prayed and waited for god to do something, instead they would just do it or try. People that were "bad" have already made their choice to disregard orders to "be good" the only thing in question would be if they would go to heaven or not, if their god existed.

Now, you want to classify anyone who "hears god" and does what we consider wrong as a schizo. Again,  you cannot parse between the types of actions. What would classify them would be the hearing of voices, not the following action. If someone cannot discern between right and wrong that is a problem in itself whether or not they hear god talking to them.

We both agree the woman who claims god told her to kill her kids did not hear god's voice, this is true. But we agree because of different reasons. I dont think she heard gods voice because god doesnt exist, you dont think she heard gods voice because you dont think god would do that. In order for you to hold such a belief you have to disregard the testimony of those who claim they hear god here in the present (and in the bible). Which is the very "evidence" you want us to accept from you, despite you disregarding others identical evidence.

Hopefully you see the problem...

I don't believe you should wait for God to do things for you.

I did not say all people that hear God is schizo. I was talking about the scenario you provided, a woman told to drown her kids by god. I'm saying a person with that kind of disorder would have heard another kind of voice in a world w/o God; that belief has nothing to do with it. Matter of fact I bet there are more people in prison that don't believe in God than do. I'm gonna do some research on it and get back to you on that one. A lot of prison reform does occur when the prisoner accepts God into his/her life, supporting the claim that believing in God is not a bad thing.

You are disregarding other people's experience with god by saying they are hearing something else other than god, when they are saying god is speaking to them or communicating with them through feelings. Again, that is the EXACT "evidence" you want to offer us. And WE keep telling you that perhaps you are hearing or feeling something else. If you want us to accept your anecdotes, it would go a long way if you were willing to accept the same evidence from others... even if it goes against what you believe. When you dont accept it that makes it seem like you are under the impression that you cant be wrong.

Also, the Jesus who you said you appreciated so much doesnt exist anywhere outside of holy books that all include the story of Abraham being told to murder his son by god. So when you say you dont think god would do that it appears that ALL of the evidence goes against you, including the same evidence you want us to accept from you.

Perhaps you can explain why I should believe you and not Abraham, the father of 3 faiths.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #345 on: April 18, 2013, 10:37:36 PM »
I beg to differ, junebug.  Prayer does not differ from meditation except that the person praying believes that something is listening to their prayers (which does not mean that something actually is listening to them).  Meditation also comforts and soothes, for example.  Every tangible benefit that one person can get through prayer, another can get through meditation.  In other words, it isn't something that can be done by a believer but not by a non-believer.

Offline Hierophant

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #346 on: April 18, 2013, 11:08:46 PM »
Oh no... no. Meditation is much harder than prayer. And I have had gains from meditations, but never from prayer.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #347 on: April 18, 2013, 11:19:07 PM »
I beg to differ, junebug.  Prayer does not differ from meditation except that the person praying believes that something is listening to their prayers (which does not mean that something actually is listening to them).  Meditation also comforts and soothes, for example.  Every tangible benefit that one person can get through prayer, another can get through meditation.  In other words, it isn't something that can be done by a believer but not by a non-believer.

I have no doubt this will amuse you all:

My wife drove our kids to school this week and my 8 year old told her he was being bullied by a certain boy. My wife told him she would pray that this wouldn't happen that day.

Coversation at afternoon tea time:

My wife: So, did X bully you today?

My Son: No.

My wife: That's excellent! Make sure you thank God!

My son: (deadpan) It wasn't God. I went and hid in the library.

It is admittedly impossible most of the time to know how our prayers are answered. Easy prey for skeptics.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.