Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 39624 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #290 on: April 18, 2013, 07:25:07 AM »
I don't think you can make someone have a 'god-like' feeling. That to me right there falsifies that experiment.

Not quite.  Her statement - that "spiritual" experiences have been recreated in labs - is a falsifiable claim.  That is, it can be proven wrong.  She could provide a link or a source to relevant studies or articles.  But she didn't.  However, she is correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
http://www.bumc.bu.edu/len/religion/the-neuroscience-of-religious-experience/
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/gilbert05/gilbert05_index.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html

That is completely unnatural. That's just not how it works, IMO.

Well, I am happy to provide you with new information (links above).  Your opinion is wrong.  It is natural and that is exactly how it works.

In my life God is with me always, no matter what my brain chemmies are doing.

This is the king kind of statement I'm talking about.  How do you know this is true?  How would you know if it were untrue?  You are using your emotions to try to sort out what the objective facts are.  But emotions cannot do that.
 
What I'm saying is I gained strength and wisdom through my belief in God.

You said it right there.  It was your belief in god is that did it, not god.  Belief in god does not mean there is a god.

IMO, that it's not the belief that hurts society its bad teaching.

Bad teaching is certainly a problem.  But what we are getting at is that magical thinking - believing in supernatural beings, irrational thought, faith - is a very destructive thing.


edit - king --> kind
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 09:52:54 AM by screwtape »
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #291 on: April 18, 2013, 07:30:08 AM »
Bad teaching is certainly a problem.  But what we are getting at is that magical thinking - believing in supernatural beings, irrational thought, faith - is a very destructive thing.

Yes!

magical thinking facilitates bad teaching as you can teach what you like if you don't have to prove it
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 07:36:08 AM by Mrjason »

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #292 on: April 18, 2013, 07:35:51 AM »
Far as I know black holes do not have free will.

neither do bullets.

Guns don't kill people rappers do.[1]
 :P
 1. 

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #293 on: April 18, 2013, 08:07:09 AM »

God doesn't protect me from man's deeds because man has free will.

Want to clarify the underlined  statement. I think God protects us by giving strength and wisdom. Wisdom is truly a powerful weapon.
Thanks screw. I'll be more careful.

It's not about being careful.  It is about everybody understanding what the expectations are.  Do you feel like you understand what we mean by "evidence" now?  Can you provide what we are asking for?

How about I rephrase the statement, "Nothing exists without God," to "I believe nothing exists without God." Will that be okay? God's existence is not the topic, It's whether or not believing in God is a bad thing. I do believe if we get back to that idea we won't have any more issues. I will not state beliefs as fact.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #294 on: April 18, 2013, 08:09:40 AM »
Your belief in your god isn't necessarily a bad thing.  But that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

This. All day long, this.

jb's beliefs are comparatively harmless. Relative to what is done in the name of god, any god, jb's beliefs are not leading her to act in a willfully harmful manner. I think we can all agree on that.

We've gotten a very long way from the OP, and have gotten into some of the minutia of jb's beliefs. That was likely necessary in order to address the OP, but it seems unlikely that we'll end up anywhere useful by arguing about science and whether or not spirit exists. I don't think we're doing a very good job of explaining why we disagree with jb's original statement.

For lack of a better way to say this, we're not speaking the same language. I don't believe that it's impossible to get jb to at least understand why we disagree with her premise, but a good place to start getting back there might be to observe that we seem to be using the word "God" to mean very different things.

Most of us arguing against the god of the bible (which she has already stated she does not believe in), and jb seems to be using the word to describe something much more amorphous. I often hear pagans refer to "the source" and based on what jb has written so far, it appears that she is using the word god in the same way.

OMG jag you get me. That really makes my day. Thanks so much. ;D
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #295 on: April 18, 2013, 08:20:42 AM »
Jag what I've heard for ten pages is that you all tried Christianity. That when the religious practices let you down, you gave up.

Wrong.  This is precisely what the "believer" wants to think or hear from the de-converted - that their de-conversion was due to being hurt, let down, rebellion, or a preference to lead an immoral life.  That way, the theist doesn't have to think.  They don't have to consider the possibility that their cherished "beliefs" might actually be in question.  The other favourite impoverished line from the theist camp, is that the person never was "a true christian".  I think we've heard that once or twice around here.

Speaking for myself Junebug, that wasn't the case at all.  As a person who cares more about what is true over what is comforting, familiar or indoctrinated, the cognitive dissonance simply became too loud for me, and over a period of time, the beliefs just fell away as I woke up from the sleep of faith.  Life has been much much better ever since.

Hey Star, that's just what I've been told here. My point is that is was the Christianity, the religion, that is at fault not the person that put their trust in it. That your belief when you believed it was not a bad thing.

I'm very happy that you have happiness in your life.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #296 on: April 18, 2013, 08:24:43 AM »
In reality, you are far stronger than you think, because all this time you have been helping and protecting yourself.  :)

^^^This cannot be said enough jb. I'm not sure that you're ready to hear it, but it should be said regardless. You are far more self-sufficient that you believe yourself to be. All this time, the strength and endurance has been YOU.

Hey jag you're right I did it. My point is the way I got there. You don't have to believe in God to believe that it was the belief that motivated me and give me strength. Therefor making it a positive consequence rather than a negative one.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #297 on: April 18, 2013, 08:27:18 AM »
How about I rephrase the statement, "Nothing exists without God," to "I believe nothing exists without God."

That is much better.  But people are still going to ask for explanations and evidence.

God's existence is not the topic, It's whether or not believing in God is a bad thing. I do believe if we get back to that idea we won't have any more issues.

Very good point.  Just so you know, especially since this is your thread, you may request people stay on topic.  If they do not, ask moderators to get the discussion back on topic.  Use the "Report to moderator" link on the posts that are off topic.

I will not state beliefs as fact.

Excellent.  Thank you.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #298 on: April 18, 2013, 09:15:06 AM »
To get back on the topic, JB, belief is bad, but doesnt necessarily lead to bad results.

belief is unfalsifiable. So if your belief in god leads you to murder your child (which does happen) then it is a bad thing. If your belief in god leads you to discriminate against people it is a bad thing. Sure enough some people's belief in god leads them to do good as well.

However, let us use an analogy. Let us use pure water to represent the good that belief does, and urine to represent the bad that belief does. We have already shown that belief can influence us to do either. So we have a mixed bag of results from belief. In essence we have three options to quench our thirst... Pure water, urine, and water mixed with urine... My suspicion is that you want no parts of drinking water mixed with urine, which is exactly what belief is in this instance.


Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #299 on: April 18, 2013, 09:42:14 AM »
I don't think you can make someone have a 'god-like' feeling. That to me right there falsifies that experiment.

Not quite.  Her statement - that "spiritual" experiences have been recreated in labs - is a falsifiable claim.  That is, it can be proven wrong.  She could provide a link or a source to relevant studies or articles.  But she didn't.  However, she is correct:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
http://www.bumc.bu.edu/len/religion/the-neuroscience-of-religious-experience/
http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/gilbert05/gilbert05_index.html
http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/7.11/persinger.html

That is completely unnatural. That's just not how it works, IMO.

Well, I am happy to provide you with new information (links above).  Your opinion is wrong.  It is natural and that is exactly how it works.

In my life God is with me always, no matter what my brain chemmies are doing.

This is the king of statement I'm talking about.  How do you know this is true?  How would you know if it were untrue?  You are using your emotions to try to sort out what the objective facts are.  But emotions cannot do that.

I define God as "the source" of life. I don't think God is a person like you or me. 
 
Quote
You said it right there.  It was your belief in god is that did it, not god.  Belief in god does not mean there is a god.

I'm not trying to to convince you there is a God.

Quote
Bad teaching is certainly a problem.  But what we are getting at is that magical thinking - believing in supernatural beings, irrational thought, faith - is a very destructive thing.

It's kind of like a gun isn't it? It really depends on who's holding it. I believe it is irrational to say  "every" single human that believes in God has caused destruction.  Some believers have changed society in a positive way. After all it's been around for thousands of years and yet mankind continues. If anything nuclear war will be the end of mankind which will be a combination of bad religion and science.  Maybe the world don't need science either. See I look at things like this. I don't think it's rational to use words like "every and all" when it comes to human behavior. You can't say "all" scientists are bad because some use it for the betterment of mankind some use it for death and destruction. The same thing goes for believers.

How has my belief been destructive? From what I understand about atheist beliefs is , that destruction would happen whether people believe in God or not. Therefor strengthening my point that it is not the belief that is destructive.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #300 on: April 18, 2013, 11:52:02 AM »
Now that we have gotten back to the point, I'm quite excited to resume that part of the conversation. I'm on campus right now, but will be back home later today and will write the post I promised a couple of days ago, hopefully by the end of the day today.

jb, I really do think I've got a pretty good handle on what you believe, more or less. I'm almost certain that we can find more common ground if we continue to be patient with each other. Thanks for hanging in there, I know this has been challenging.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #301 on: April 18, 2013, 12:30:55 PM »
Junebug72 -

Do you feel that belief in god is rational or irrational?  If irrational, some of your posts seem to indicate that you feel being irrational is a bad thing, though I'm unsure if that is indeed how you feel.  If belief in god is rational, then I'd like to know the rational basis for god-belief.

Insofar as the OP is concerned, I feel that belief in the existence of god is irrational, and that irrational beliefs are, in general, detrimental.

From my perspective, the OP's question can be more generalized as:
"Not all irrational beliefs are bad."

But I may be overgeneralizing or focusing on the wrong points.  Thoughts?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #302 on: April 18, 2013, 01:29:14 PM »
God can forgive us for lacking faith but I'm convinced that those without Love will face some consequences for the lack thereof.

So you're ok with all us atheists getting to heaven if we've loved one another?

I'm super ok with that.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #303 on: April 18, 2013, 01:32:12 PM »
Now that we have gotten back to the point, I'm quite excited to resume that part of the conversation. I'm on campus right now, but will be back home later today and will write the post I promised a couple of days ago, hopefully by the end of the day today.

jb, I really do think I've got a pretty good handle on what you believe, more or less. I'm almost certain that we can find more common ground if we continue to be patient with each other. Thanks for hanging in there, I know this has been challenging.

Thanks Jag. I'm too excited to read your post.

I've been through worse. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #304 on: April 18, 2013, 01:43:19 PM »
God can forgive us for lacking faith but I'm convinced that those without Love will face some consequences for the lack thereof.

So you're ok with all us atheists getting to heaven if we've loved one another?

I'm super ok with that.

M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So you're saying Jesus is a liar?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #305 on: April 18, 2013, 01:51:21 PM »
To get back on the topic, JB, belief is bad, but doesnt necessarily lead to bad results.

belief is unfalsifiable. So if your belief in god leads you to murder your child (which does happen) then it is a bad thing. If your belief in god leads you to discriminate against people it is a bad thing. Sure enough some people's belief in god leads them to do good as well.

However, let us use an analogy. Let us use pure water to represent the good that belief does, and urine to represent the bad that belief does. We have already shown that belief can influence us to do either. So we have a mixed bag of results from belief. In essence we have three options to quench our thirst... Pure water, urine, and water mixed with urine... My suspicion is that you want no parts of drinking water mixed with urine, which is exactly what belief is in this instance.

Gawd,

I would argue that even scientist agree that people hearing thoughts like that are schizophrenic or something so it is not actual belief that is the problem, it's a brain chemical malfunction. Mental disorders has a lot more to do with the problem than belief does,IMO. I mean rather lack of affordable, good treatment. See I see a problem there. Good psychiatric care is expensive and most people with mental disorders are poor and have to rely on second rate care that is overwhelmed with patients. They try to mask symptoms with pills. I wonder if a utopian world would cure mental disease, if it is a result of social imperfection or is it non-related. Really it makes sense to me that some are and some are not.

I still say it's not the actual belief. If you mix good water with good water it's still good water. If it was the actual belief it would poison everybody that drank it.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #306 on: April 18, 2013, 02:00:19 PM »
Gawd,

I would argue that even scientist agree that people hearing thoughts like that are schizophrenic or something so it is not actual belief that is the problem, it's a brain chemical malfunction. Mental disorders has a lot more to do with the problem than belief does,IMO. I mean rather lack of affordable, good treatment. See I see a problem there. Good psychiatric care is expensive and most people with mental disorders are poor and have to rely on second rate care that is overwhelmed with patients. They try to mask symptoms with pills. I wonder if a utopian world would cure mental disease, if it is a result of social imperfection or is it non-related. Really it makes sense to me that some are and some are not.

I still say it's not the actual belief. If you mix good water with good water it's still good water. If it was the actual belief it would poison everybody that drank it.

Here, you want to discern between "good" and "bad" thoughts through your use of "thoughts like that." There is no difference between whether theyre good or bad when determining whether they are actually voices from god or just your subconscious. The difference is if you understand that it is your subconscious youre hearing, you are more apt to understand that the voice may be wrong or at least questionable. If one thinks theyre hearing god, then if you think "god" is always right and you must obey then you end up with drowned kids.

That is why god belief has to be falsifiable, and once falsified, it needs to be recognized. What people will discover once they recognize that the god hypothesis has been shown to be false, and that literally nothing changes except you realize everything is in your own hands and ALWAYS has been. This enables you to be even better.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #307 on: April 18, 2013, 02:04:12 PM »
God can forgive us for lacking faith but I'm convinced that those without Love will face some consequences for the lack thereof.

So you're ok with all us atheists getting to heaven if we've loved one another?

I'm super ok with that.

M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So you're saying Jesus is a liar?

I don't see what that has to do with the subject Gray, but no I did not say that Jesus is a liar and there is a forum for that discussion. Don't make me go mod on you. :D

Don't worry I wouldn't do that. :P

Seems to me the moderators are the ones that keep getting off subject. By the way I was wondering are there any believer mods here?

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #308 on: April 18, 2013, 02:11:54 PM »
God can forgive us for lacking faith but I'm convinced that those without Love will face some consequences for the lack thereof.

Quote
So you're ok with all us atheists getting to heaven if we've loved one another?

Quote
I'm super ok with that.

M'r:16:16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

So you're saying Jesus is a liar?
[/quote]

Quote
I don't see what that has to do with the subject Gray,

Well you say that good atheists go to heaven, but Jesus says they don't.

Quote
but no I did not say that Jesus is a liar and there is a forum for that discussion.

Yes, and this is the forum. The statements you make in support of "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" are all relevant. You can't just say you're a Christian and then opposes what Christ said.

I mean, how can you claim that good atheists go to heaven? And believing that they do is unchristian.

You see, believing in God (in the strange way that you do) has caused difficulties - you have one idea, Christians have another and atheists have a third.

Quote
Seems to me the moderators are the ones that keep getting off subject. By the way I was wondering are there any believer mods here?
Moderators do try to keep on subject and make sure that nobody (Believer or not) makes wild statements.

And,no, there are not any believer mods here.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 02:15:16 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #309 on: April 18, 2013, 02:14:17 PM »
Gawd,

I would argue that even scientist agree that people hearing thoughts like that are schizophrenic or something so it is not actual belief that is the problem, it's a brain chemical malfunction. Mental disorders has a lot more to do with the problem than belief does,IMO. I mean rather lack of affordable, good treatment. See I see a problem there. Good psychiatric care is expensive and most people with mental disorders are poor and have to rely on second rate care that is overwhelmed with patients. They try to mask symptoms with pills. I wonder if a utopian world would cure mental disease, if it is a result of social imperfection or is it non-related. Really it makes sense to me that some are and some are not.

I still say it's not the actual belief. If you mix good water with good water it's still good water. If it was the actual belief it would poison everybody that drank it.

Here, you want to discern between "good" and "bad" thoughts through your use of "thoughts like that." There is no difference between whether theyre good or bad when determining whether they are actually voices from god or just your subconscious. The difference is if you understand that it is your subconscious youre hearing, you are more apt to understand that the voice may be wrong or at least questionable. If one thinks theyre hearing god, then if you think "god" is always right and you must obey then you end up with drowned kids.

That is why god belief has to be falsifiable, and once falsified, it needs to be recognized. What people will discover once they recognize that the god hypothesis has been shown to be false, and that literally nothing changes except you realize everything is in your own hands and ALWAYS has been. This enables you to be even better.

Or even worse! Would that effect not work both ways? Good people would be better; bad people will be worse. We both agree that the woman that killed her kids did not hear God. Other people with schizo. have other voices telling them to do things and they do not refrain either. It is not the voice it is the disease. The disease causes the voices; the disease makes it difficult to discern right from wrong. That is why they can't ignore the voices, they have no sense of right and wrong.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #310 on: April 18, 2013, 02:16:51 PM »
So who are these people who say that when they pray, "God speaks to them."?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #311 on: April 18, 2013, 02:37:25 PM »

Or even worse! Would that effect not work both ways? Good people would be better; bad people will be worse. We both agree that the woman that killed her kids did not hear God. Other people with schizo. have other voices telling them to do things and they do not refrain either. It is not the voice it is the disease. The disease causes the voices; the disease makes it difficult to discern right from wrong. That is why they can't ignore the voices, they have no sense of right and wrong.

Well, no, it wouldnt work both ways. Good people could be better in that when they normally wouldve prayed and waited for god to do something, instead they would just do it or try. People that were "bad" have already made their choice to disregard orders to "be good" the only thing in question would be if they would go to heaven or not, if their god existed.

Now, you want to classify anyone who "hears god" and does what we consider wrong as a schizo. Again,  you cannot parse between the types of actions. What would classify them would be the hearing of voices, not the following action. If someone cannot discern between right and wrong that is a problem in itself whether or not they hear god talking to them.

We both agree the woman who claims god told her to kill her kids did not hear god's voice, this is true. But we agree because of different reasons. I dont think she heard gods voice because god doesnt exist, you dont think she heard gods voice because you dont think god would do that. In order for you to hold such a belief you have to disregard the testimony of those who claim they hear god here in the present (and in the bible). Which is the very "evidence" you want us to accept from you, despite you disregarding others identical evidence.

Hopefully you see the problem...

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #312 on: April 18, 2013, 02:51:26 PM »

Well you say that good atheists go to heaven, but Jesus says they don't.

Who knows what changes have been made to what Jesus taught. That one sounds manmade to me.Once the romans took it over. I'm curious Graybeard, have you read the Agnostic  Gospels.  You know the ones that aren't in the bible? I need to get me a copy of that because I'm curious if anything like that was said in those Gospels. I read part of it once, never finished it.


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Yes, and this is it. The statements you make in support of "Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing" are all relevant. You can't just say you're a Christian and then opposes what Christ said.

I mean, how can you claim that good atheists go to heaven? And believing that they do is unchristian.
I Love Jesus Christ. I think what He did for mankind should be forever remembered and honored and so far it has been, to an extent. I think that some Christians dishonor Christ when they do the things they do. That has a lot to do with why I left the religion. 

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You see, believing in God (in the strange way that you do) has caused difficulties - you have one idea, Christians have another and atheists have a third.

Somebody here said there were over 4,000 religions, then there are spiritual people like myself unattached to religions, individuals interpretation of their religion and so on and so on....

It doesn't cause difficulties for me.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #313 on: April 18, 2013, 03:02:29 PM »
Who knows what changes have been made to what Jesus taught.

and then this:

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I Love Jesus Christ. I think what He did for mankind should be forever remembered and honoured....






Does anyone else see the problem here?


God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Samothec

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #314 on: April 18, 2013, 03:07:08 PM »
Or even worse! Would that effect not work both ways? Good people would be better; bad people will be worse. We both agree that the woman that killed her kids did not hear God. Other people with schizo. have other voices telling them to do things and they do not refrain either. It is not the voice it is the disease. The disease causes the voices; the disease makes it difficult to discern right from wrong. That is why they can't ignore the voices, they have no sense of right and wrong.

Sorry but much of this is incorrect.

"bad people will be worse" - Depends upon why they were bad. People like those of the Westboro Baptist Church are bad because of their god and religion so some of them would be better after losing both. (Some would still be vile disgusting pieces of crap in human form.)

"the disease makes it difficult to discern right from wrong" - No, the schizophrenia makes it difficult to distinguish what is real. Because she believes in God when her altered reality presents her with God talking to here she accepts that it is real and obeys. If she did not believe in God then she probably would have been able to understand that the voice was not real and she should ignore it. God/religion did cause those deaths, indirectly.

"That is why they can't ignore the voices, they have no sense of right and wrong." - Wrong. Please read up on schizophrenia.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #315 on: April 18, 2013, 03:11:51 PM »

Well, no, it wouldnt work both ways. Good people could be better in that when they normally wouldve prayed and waited for god to do something, instead they would just do it or try. People that were "bad" have already made their choice to disregard orders to "be good" the only thing in question would be if they would go to heaven or not, if their god existed.

Now, you want to classify anyone who "hears god" and does what we consider wrong as a schizo. Again,  you cannot parse between the types of actions. What would classify them would be the hearing of voices, not the following action. If someone cannot discern between right and wrong that is a problem in itself whether or not they hear god talking to them.

We both agree the woman who claims god told her to kill her kids did not hear god's voice, this is true. But we agree because of different reasons. I dont think she heard gods voice because god doesnt exist, you dont think she heard gods voice because you dont think god would do that. In order for you to hold such a belief you have to disregard the testimony of those who claim they hear god here in the present (and in the bible). Which is the very "evidence" you want us to accept from you, despite you disregarding others identical evidence.

Hopefully you see the problem...

I don't believe you should wait for God to do things for you.

I did not say all people that hear God is schizo. I was talking about the scenario you provided, a woman told to drown her kids by god. I'm saying a person with that kind of disorder would have heard another kind of voice in a world w/o God; that belief has nothing to do with it. Matter of fact I bet there are more people in prison that don't believe in God than do. I'm gonna do some research on it and get back to you on that one. A lot of prison reform does occur when the prisoner accepts God into his/her life, supporting the claim that believing in God is not a bad thing.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #316 on: April 18, 2013, 03:17:30 PM »
Who knows what changes have been made to what Jesus taught.

and then this:

Quote
I Love Jesus Christ. I think what He did for mankind should be forever remembered and honoured....






Does anyone else see the problem here?

Do you have any intelligent thoughts to bring to the topic. hehe

Try as you may to anger me it's not going to happen. I'm as cool as a cucumber. I'm also not going to degrade myself be reporting this nonsense to mods. It's mods that keep doing this.

Maybe what I should say is atheist are mean, therefor atheism is a bad thing!!!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #317 on: April 18, 2013, 03:21:36 PM »
I'd like to repeat something I said before - junebug's belief isn't necessarily a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it's a good thing.

What ultimately matters in life is what people do, not what they believe or think or use to rationalize their actions.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #318 on: April 18, 2013, 03:30:07 PM »
"bad people will be worse" - Depends upon why they were bad. People like those of the Westboro Baptist Church are bad because of their god and religion so some of them would be better after losing both. (Some would still be vile disgusting pieces of crap in human form.)

"the disease makes it difficult to discern right from wrong" - No, the schizophrenia makes it difficult to distinguish what is real. Because she believes in God when her altered reality presents her with God talking to here she accepts that it is real and obeys. If she did not believe in God then she probably would have been able to understand that the voice was not real and she should ignore it. God/religion did cause those deaths, indirectly.

"That is why they can't ignore the voices, they have no sense of right and wrong." - Wrong. Please read up on schizophrenia.

Well you all are talking about a minute minority of the population.  My heart goes out to people suffering from the disease. I still say it is the disease that causes the irrational behaviour not the belief. There are people with mental disorders that do not believe in God, they do not hear God speak, and they behave violently. I just don't see how this is a good example of belief being a bad thing.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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