Author Topic: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing  (Read 35028 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #145 on: April 13, 2013, 07:23:12 PM »
@Junebug:   I am sorry that you have had so much pain in your life.  I am certain that there are many online communities where you will find members who with sympathize and empathize and provide you with support. 

You are welcome here, but you are not going to find many here who respond to you with sympathy or empathy.  You will find a lot of people who challenge you, and ask you to defend your beliefs with evidence. But if you feel like folks are ganging up on you, alert a guide or a mod or post your concerns in the Shelter.

I don't think that's true. If there's a thread where that is the focus, I suspect that she'll get lots of sympathy & empathy, but if the focus is extraordinary supernatural claims, then that ought to be the focus.

I stand corrected.  A lot of members have sought and found support here.  And the Personal Help, Advice and Support section is there just to meet that need! 


Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #146 on: April 14, 2013, 12:44:52 AM »
I've studied God. So yal can be the scientific experts, and I'll be this humble little ole gal from the Appalachians that knows a little bit about God.

Cool.  Always interested in people who have studied, and who know things.

So go ahead please - post what you KNOW about your god, and how you KNOW it, wth the evidence please, and your workings.  Until then, all you are posting is your happy little wishing fantasies, which - while they may be nice and help you in YOUR life - are worthless to anyone else.

I suppose it depends what you want to do, or what you want to be here.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #147 on: April 14, 2013, 08:20:55 AM »

Religion is used by people for all sorts of reasons.  That's why Christianity is so popular.  Want to justify killing your enemies?  Christianity.  Want to justify loving your enemies?  Christianity.  Want to justify slavery?  Christianity.  Want to justify no slavery?  Christianity.  That's what you have to start understanding Junebug.  Religion is what people use to support what they already think.  You use your religion to support the belief that love is great and that people should help each other out.  Other people use it for other things.  It's all still religion.  You think your religion is good for everyone.  Everyone else does the same thing.


Used by people, not by God. God does not control what we do, that is very obvious. We were created with a conscience to help us decide right from wrong. It is up to us to master the art of being human, and so far we've done a shotty job as far as eliminating poverty and violence.

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That's nice, but how do you know?  And what mess are you specifically referring to?

Poverty and violence!!! 


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You are practicing cognitive dissonance.  It makes you uneasy to see the suffering in the world around us and pair that with the idea that God loves everyone.  So you excuse it away with irrational stuff like 'this mess isn't God's will', when that is clearly an illogical stance.  Do you really sit there and imagine God is crying about what's going on down here?  If it's not his will, why doesn't he fix it?  Are you saying the horrors that would come from FIXING the problems with the world are so bad that God would rather leave us alone?  That God would cry MORE if he stopped kids from starving?
 

I understand how you would interpret my spiritual beliefs as cognitive dissonance. You lack the faith and understanding in God to perceive it any other way. I understand that what you would want in a God is one that controls us,that saves us. I don't like the idea of being a robot, but we would be perfect. You just can't have it both ways Jeff. We can either have free will, or only have it when children aren't starving,or being raped, tortured and murdered etc.. Some people use their free will to do marvelous things, others well, they use theirs to reek havoc. The question is, how do we unite the 'marvelous' to put an end to the havoc?




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The only way to fix the things about this world that are a mess is with thinking people coming up with new ideas and abandoning ancient superstitious nonsense.  Accepting that the world is the way it is, is the first step in solving the problems we face. Putting our hands together and bowing our heads to telepathically communicate with an invisible sky man doesn't seem to be working.

Accepting the world as it is means accepting a spiritual world. 

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Like you, atheists think that the problems of the world need to be solved by humans.  We think this because we think there's nothing out there that's going to help us.  You, on the other hand, think there IS something out there that COULD help us, but chooses not to.  Let me use an analogy to show you what its like...

If God interferes on such a large scale, it would abolish free will. That would truly mean God gives up on us, that God no longer has faith in mankind to achieve peace,harmony,etc...



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What if I believed there was a person that walked around behind you all day that sometimes helped you out and sometimes didn't, but really, really loved you and wanted to keep you safe.  I kept telling you that I see this person behind you, but every time you look for it, you can't see it.  So you tell me there's no person and I tell you there is.  One day, we're walking down the street and you fall into a hole and break your leg.  You look up at me from the hole and ask why the person didn't stop you from walking into the hole, and I tell you that 'it wasn't his will that you fell into the hole', and that 'he's crying about you falling into the hole' and that 'the world would be much worse off if you hadn't fallen into the hole'.  Is that a respectable answer?  Seriously... is it?  This is what you tell us with your God.

That's just not how free will works Jeff. Free will means that you are responsible for keeping yourself up off the ground. I don't know about you but I've had some pretty good times not doing what I was supposed to, I suffered the consequences and learned from them. What you're saying is it would have been better that my puppeteer jerked his string and kept me on the straight and narrow? I've learned that what I do and how I think affects it all, that I'm part of something much greater than myself. I am a part of you and you me and so on and so on... see by myself I'm a tiny little speck, but when united with my 'friends' we get pretty darn big. :D
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #148 on: April 14, 2013, 08:26:10 AM »
The difference between religion and spirituality can thus be summarized as follows:

Religion focuses on dogmas and rules followed by a particular sect or group of people, whereas spirituality focuses on the soul that dwells within you.
It can be said that religion focuses on the outside; spirituality focuses on the within.
Religion comes from outside whereas spirituality comes from within.
Religion shapes the character of the individual whereas spirituality aims at shaping the individual himself.
Religion makes a person disciplined, whereas spirituality makes a person strong by mind.
Religion aims at building faiths and customs, whereas spirituality aims at building the strength of the soul.  It makes the person ready to combat any situation in life.

http://www.differencebetween.com


Just Saying! :)
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Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #149 on: April 14, 2013, 08:57:21 AM »
That is not what "religion" means when people here use the word "religion".
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #150 on: April 14, 2013, 09:09:20 AM »
JB, you are failing in a few areas...

A) showing that your "god" actually exists
B) distinguishing between your "god's" inaction and its non-existence
C) showing how you came to conclusions about your "god"
D) you claim to be non-religions, but the more you post it sounds like Christianity based upon the bible with the usual ignoring of the messy stuff; how is your religion different?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #151 on: April 14, 2013, 09:45:07 AM »
You guys are right I don't know as much about science as you all....

Science isn't something to "know about" (like cars), it's a method of knowing & understanding....well....everything.  It is the best tool we've got, and it is open to any & all observable phenomena.  The reason why god does not come up on the radar of any scientific inquiry is that a god (especially the cartoon character of the Abrahamic god) doesn't exist.  Gods were and are humanity's first guess as an explanation.  This guess was and is born out of ignorance and superstition.

God didn't come before superstition, according to you God is superstition. 

Basically God is the respect our early ancestors gave to the "Wander" of it all. Imagine how humble they must have felt, inexperienced and small. See no matter how we prove this planet and life came to be; that is God. That's why you can't get rid of God. If our origin is certain gases combining in such a way that life was created then that power is God.



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I've studied God.

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I don't mean to be abrasive when I say this, but I really wish you could see and appreciate just how vacuous that statement is.  Allow me to change just one word of your three-word statement:  "I've studied Zeus"  "I've studied Superman"  "I've studied astrology"  "I've studied Voodoo magic"  "I've studied Santa Claus"  "I've studied unicorns".  You get the picture.  I'm reminded of another saying:  "Being a theologian is like being a professional air guitarist."

No! I do not allow you to change my words. make your words yours and my words are mine. Anybody can do that change people's words and make them mean whatever they want them to mean. I don't change your words they're yours to have may I pretty, pretty please have mine!!!
With the exception of Santa Claus-cool guy, unicorns-beautiful creatures,and superman-great movie. Any theory concerning our spiritual health is welcome.

To be honest it's quite an annoying way to argue. I hope you don't do other people that way.



Take a man that is physically and intellectually strong but has no spirit, a man that has spirit but no physical strength and third a man that has both physical-intellectual strength and spiritual strength, which man is best equipped? No matter what task you give the man that has both He is more likely to be able to accomplish greater things. To be an example and inspire others. That's the kind of Leaders we need. Someone like that gets a chance and hope will have not been in vain!



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How did you go about "studying" this god of yours?

I'm sure you know how people study starry skies.



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And that's it?  You're not prepared to move any further than that?  That is the epitome of being closed minded.

The only person closed minded in this conversation is you. I respect the science, fascinating stuff, I encourage it. That is origin science, don't care so much for the science that creates nuclear weapons and decimate our planet, ie, petroleum based energy!

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If you live in the Appalachians, I'm going to suggest that because you live in a part of the States which is steeped in Christianity, that the idea of proclaiming to not having god belief for you is somewhat frightening.  Is there any truth in that?

Trust me when I say this,my favorite Star, what I believe and Christians "practice" are two different things. The only thing we have in common is Creation. That there is a magnificent power in the universe that deserves respect and there we go our separate ways.

Nobody's threatened to burn me at the stake or behead me. They think I'm crazier than you do!lol :laugh:
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #152 on: April 14, 2013, 10:11:26 AM »
God didn't come before superstition, according to you God is superstition.

Like much of what you say, I don't understand that.

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Basically God is the respect our early ancestors gave to the "Wander" (wonder) of it all. Imagine how humble they must have felt, inexperienced and small.

Nonsense.  They didn't have a clue about the universe as we do thanks to our science and exploration.  They invented their gods as an explanation for their existence and the worlds existence.  We KNOW that they were 100% wrong on both counts.


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See, no matter how we prove this planet and life came to be; that is God. That's why you can't get rid of God. If our origin is certain gases combining in such a way that life was created then that power is God.

Wow, what a mess.  I don't have time right now to untangle that.



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No! I do not allow you to change my words. make your words yours and my words are mine. Anybody can do that change people's words and make them mean whatever they want them to mean.

Ugh.  It's a thought exercise to help you see how your thinking is flawed.






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Take a man that is physically and intellectually strong but has no spirit, a man that has spirit but no physical strength and third a man that has both physical-intellectual strength and spiritual strength, which man is best equipped?

What does "no spirit" mean or look like?  This "spirit" word leads you down a road of fantasy and baseless assertions.  Your thinking is so highly flawed.



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No matter what task you give the man that has both He is more likely to be able to accomplish greater things. To be an example and inspire others. That's the kind of Leaders we need. Someone like that gets a chance and hope will have not been in vain!

And therefore your god is real?  Sorry, fail.



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I'm sure you know how people study starry skies.

What?



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The only person closed minded in this conversation is you.

I can see that you didn't watch that video I posted on "Openmindedness".  I highly recommend it.



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I respect the science, fascinating stuff, I encourage it.

No, you're a cherry picker.  You like it when it supports your pre-existing beliefs, but dismiss it when it displays that your supernatural beliefs are false.





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Trust me when I say this, my favorite Star, what I believe and Christians "practice" are two different things. The only thing we have in common is Creation.

That wasn't my point at all.  My point is that you know darn well that to "come out" as a non-believer in god in your neck of the woods would most certainly come with a cost - no?

God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #153 on: April 14, 2013, 10:36:13 AM »
One more thing, I'm not as scientifically illerate as yal think. I'm really not. Anything concerning origins intrigues me.

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This contradicts

Do you own a masters in grammar Aaron? Didn't think so, or you would have recognized a comparative statement to a literal statement. Maybe you should leave the editing up to the experts. just saying.


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Exacty what do you think evolution is? 

The process of adapting to an environment out of necessity for survival.

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(as an aside, am I suppose to imagine a texan accent with your voice?  the "yal" in your posts gets me thinking of that)

Just paying tribute to my southern heritage. It's really more a you-aww.hehe


I'm beginning to think you all got this science stuff down pat but maybe lack in the reading comprehending department. The statement was to prove a point not a literal statement. That you believe it although you haven't seen it, therefore not much different from believing in a Creator, that one hasn't literally seen. There is evidence this phenomena has taken place-"the fish"-and contrary to what you think, there "is" evidence in divine intervention. Catholics and others have been keeping track of "miracles" for thousands of years. There have been unexplained "miraculous" healings, and millions of personal testimonies such as my own.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #154 on: April 14, 2013, 10:47:41 AM »
Please watch:


God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #155 on: April 14, 2013, 10:48:21 AM »
Ok, then June, what you are saying amounts to a respect for 'the creative force' in the universe without being able to point to just what that is. Maybe it's the sheer wonder of nature and all its forms or maybe its the wonder at the universe and the vast numbers of stars at. This is all very well but it is an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignoranceArgument from ignorance. The vast array of nature causes us awe yet, the theory of evolution explains to us how it came to be. The same goes for the universe which, though very beautiful from earth, has a proper explanation.

Then again, you appeal to spirit that is supposed to be in some people at least. What exactly is that? How could we go about determining if such a thing exists? how do expect people to understand what you say if you don't give some sort of explanation?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #156 on: April 14, 2013, 10:58:41 AM »
brilliant video, Star Stuff. I hope June watches it.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #157 on: April 14, 2013, 11:00:10 AM »
The process of adapting to an environment out of necessity for survival.

A bit more complicated than that, but close.  So why do you think it involves "fish turning into humans"?


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That you believe it although you haven't seen it,

We accept evolution because there is evidence for it.


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therefore not much different from believing in a Creator, that one hasn't literally seen.


We do not accept a creator because there is no evidence for it.


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There is evidence this phenomena has taken place-"the fish"-and contrary to what you think, there "is" evidence in divine intervention. Catholics and others have been keeping track of "miracles" for thousands of years. There have been unexplained "miraculous" healings, and millions of personal testimonies such as my own.

So what are these "mircales" you speak of"  I have a feeling that they're a lot less "miraculous" than you think they are.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #158 on: April 14, 2013, 11:02:24 AM »

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Nonsense.  They didn't have a clue about the universe as we do thanks to our science and exploration.  They invented their gods as an explanation for their existence and the worlds existence.  We KNOW that they were 100% wrong on both counts.

I challenge you to prove how you KNOW that's what they were thinking. All I can do is imagine that's what they were Feeling. I try to imagine how I would have felt with no knowledge and a sense of survival. What the first emotional tear was shed over or the first time someone got evil enough to take another man's life? How can you say with all certainty they were ignorant; it's as if you were there; and not more gifted than us. They were able to survive with only mother earth to provide and managed to seed civilization.

God is wherever we come from, no matter where or how that is.








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Ugh.  It's a thought exercise to help you see how your thinking is flawed.

let me change a few words here;

It's a word altering process to help me completely and totally undermine your point.

I'll get to rest later got to get to my first grandbaby's baby shower.








Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #159 on: April 14, 2013, 11:04:02 AM »
That's why you can't get rid of God. If our origin is certain gases combining in such a way that life was created then that power is God.

Could volcanoes exist without god?
If you boil water on the stove, do you think that could be done without god?
If you use laundry detergent to clean clothing, do you think that could be done without god?

Or are you saying that your definition of god includes absolutely everything in the universe since time began,  so absolutely nothing does not involve god - more a pantheism definition?

Junebug, would you say that from your time debating here your definition of god has changed?
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #160 on: April 14, 2013, 11:06:53 AM »
June, here's your answer to your challenge. The following picture is an illustration of the 'universe' created in Genesis and mention in Job.We know this is some time BCE - maybe around 500BCE as some of the story seems to be from the Babylonian creation narrative.

Now, please, point out to me what in the picture is like our present views of the universe.

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #161 on: April 14, 2013, 11:28:45 AM »
I challenge you to prove how you KNOW that's what they were thinking.

You're twisting things around.  I meant that they didn't have as complete or accurate an understanding of the universe and our place in it due to their lack of knowledge.  Our present understanding will become more full, but with your nonsensical question or "challenge" above, you are asking me to know what what we don't yet know.


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All I can do is imagine that's what they were Feeling.

We know that one's feelings come from the thoughts one has.  So you cannot imagine what they were feeling without imagining what they were thinking.  See how you've shot yourself in the foot there?




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God is wherever we come from, no matter where or how that is.

That makes no sense.








« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 04:35:22 PM by Star Stuff »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Jag

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #162 on: April 14, 2013, 11:47:57 AM »
God is wherever we come from, no matter where or how that is.

jb, I'm not picking you out specifically on what follows. The course of this conversation is such that it seems a good time to make this point, and it may be a good point to try to make to you anyway. Please hear it as intended - I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. I posted this elsewhere first, so you were not the original intended audience.

In a nutshell, every major religion starts with a premise we rarely discuss around here, in addition to the ones we do. That is: human beings are "the point" of the universe. In fact, it's so ingrained in their thinking, it's never even directly stated. It's blatantly apparent once one stops and notices it though.

The sheer degree of arrogance required to assume that the entirety of the universe exist exclusively for humans is part of what makes is so fricking difficult to get them to step back and really think about what they believe. It's simply beyond them to consider that outside planet Earth, there's not a single thing in the entirety of the universe that gives a sh!t about us one way or another.


Forgive any harshness of tone jb, but do you see the point I was making?

On a slightly different topic, I have some thoughts that (I think) might help me understand what you are trying to convey. I've been following this topic with a great deal of interest, and I want to commend you for staying with it. I know this has been challenging, and probably somewhat painful in a few places. I'm starting to get a sense that you and I may actually have a similar way of looking at "the world" that may not be obvious on the surface.

We see peoples doing awful things, destructive things, and obviously-harmful-to-others things, and we're saddened and disappointed in our fellow humans. We agree that the problem is people and their actions, attitudes, and behaviors. We may disagree somewhat about their motivations and how best to solve the problems, but there's no question for either of us that change is required for humans to thrive on the only planet we have available to us. We also agree that the only way that change is going to occur is if we humans get our collective a$$es in motion and get to work. Expecting god (of any belief system) to intervene is pointless.

We also share a sense of wonder at the majesty of the natural world. We look at the stars and are profoundly moved by seeing the beauty of the night sky. We watch a sunrise and feel a sense of gratitude. We are delighted at every story we hear, or action we witness that provides a positive outcome, and we work to participate in as many positive outcome oriented things as we can.

The only real difference I find is what we call the part that pleases us. You call it god, and I call it nature.

Does that sound accurate to you? I'm just trying to really understand what you're talking about - your spirituality (your chosen descriptor, correct?) seems very personal and specific to you, and I don't want to make any more assumptions. What I've stated here is what I've pieced together - am I more or less on the right track?

And finally, congrats on the (pending?) new addition to your family! My first grandbaby arrived at the end of January, and she's an absolute delight!
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #163 on: April 14, 2013, 02:47:49 PM »
This song is clearly about a relationship that was successful because they were "Strong Enough to Bend".

The tree still stands because it's "Strong Enough to Bend".

Really! I thought it was about a tree! Perhaps an advert for someone to buy trees if they live somewhere that is windy...

What has this got to do with believing in God?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Quesi

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #164 on: April 14, 2013, 02:57:51 PM »

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Nonsense.  They didn't have a clue about the universe as we do thanks to our science and exploration.  They invented their gods as an explanation for their existence and the worlds existence.  We KNOW that they were 100% wrong on both counts.

I challenge you to prove how you KNOW that's what they were thinking. All I can do is imagine that's what they were Feeling. I try to imagine how I would have felt with no knowledge and a sense of survival. What the first emotional tear was shed over or the first time someone got evil enough to take another man's life? How can you say with all certainty they were ignorant; it's as if you were there; and not more gifted than us. They were able to survive with only mother earth to provide and managed to seed civilization.


Actually, the advent of literacy allowed people to share their thoughts with the generations that followed.  So we know quite a bit about what people were thinking.  Across the globe, people were looking up at the sky and trying to figure out what the sun and the moon and the stars and the planets were.  Each civilization made up its own stories. 

Also, people from every corner of the globe spent a lot of time thinking about the weather and how it would impact on their crops.  They had no concept of weather patterns, so they came up with various explanations for life altering events such as droughts and floods or late frosts or any unusual weather pattern that could drastically impact on their food sources.  Many early civilizations thought that an angry deity or deities were responsible for the weather that threated their crops or their homes, and many civilizations tried to appease angry deities, often with sacrifices of cattle or goats[1] or virgins or slaves or children.  Other civilizations accepted that the hunger they were experiencing this season was a result of evil that they had committed in a previous life.  Still other civilizations believed that poor weather and famine were a result of failing to adequately honor their dead ancestors.   

Wheel's picture shows a lot about what the people of that time and place were thinking. 

I think it is unfair to say that they had "no knowledge."  Most ancient people knew a great deal about the particulars of their immediate environment and ecosystems.  What they didn't know, was the greater context in which their immediate environment existed. 
 1. the ot has goat sacrifices, as I'm sure you know

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #165 on: April 15, 2013, 03:39:44 AM »
I've studied God. So yal can be the scientific experts, and I'll be this humble little ole gal from the Appalachians that knows a little bit about God.

Cool.  Always interested in people who have studied, and who know things.

So go ahead please - post what you KNOW about your god, and how you KNOW it, wth the evidence please, and your workings.  Until then, all you are posting is your happy little wishing fantasies, which - while they may be nice and help you in YOUR life - are worthless to anyone else.

I suppose it depends what you want to do, or what you want to be here.

Any answer yet Junebug?  Anything concrete you have to share, or just the little wishes and dreams that you really, really want to be true?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #166 on: April 15, 2013, 05:03:32 AM »
Why is a personal witness not evidence?

You didn't witness a deity creating the universe or this planet.  We know how this planet formed, and we know that for the first 1 BILLION years (that's a thousand million), it was a nasty, hostile place inhospitable to life.  We know that about 3.5 BILLION years ago, life cooked up in a most simple biochemical way, and has evolved to where we are now.  ALL of the evidence (and there's mountains of it) supports this.

Please watch:






Quote
The fact that this planet is here is evidence.

You're doing it again; coming to your conclusions first.


Science seeks to draw a conclusion from the evidence at hand, while religion seeks to find evidence for a conclusion at hand.  (Steven J. Hurlin)
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 10:11:27 AM by Star Stuff »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #167 on: April 15, 2013, 05:30:42 AM »
Well, June, we do take personal witnesses in court and hear their evidence but there is a key difference. In court, a witness has to describe what they saw / heard. With luck, someone else saw/heard the same event and adds to the testimony. What a witness is not allowed to do is to give evidence on what goes on in their head and what they think goes on in someone else's head either.

Now you may experience something you call god in your head but this is not accessible to anyone else and so has no chance of being confirmed by another witness. Moreover, neither of us know whether what you experience is a real, actual god or the effect the sub-conscious brain popping ideas into the conscious brain. That is something neither of us would be able to distinguish. So it is for that reason that you personal testimony don't count as evidence of a god.

Finally, that things exist is not evidence for a creator but is only evidence that things exist. Science is still working on explaining the origin of the universe but we are fairly clear how natural forces came together to form our star, the sun, and then form our planetary system. Our planet happened to get lucky and be in the right place and had an atmosphere - though not like our present one. We are close to explaining how life began, quite naturally, and from there we can account for the development of the planet to where we are today - and no creator was required!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #168 on: April 15, 2013, 05:43:35 AM »
I've studied God. So yal can be the scientific experts, and I'll be this humble little ole gal from the Appalachians that knows a little bit about God.
So go ahead please - post what you KNOW about your god, and how you KNOW it, wth the evidence please, and your workings. 

Good Morning Ang. You know all this talk about evidence has got me thinking. Why is a personal witness not evidence? It's certainly used in our justice system. It may not be the evidence you want, but it is evidence. The fact that this planet is here is evidence. Like I said earlier God is where we came from no matter how science proves it happened. There is a power in the universe that creates life. That power is God. It is my choice to respect and honor that power.

Ignoring for the moment the fact that - rather than actually GIVE your evidence, you have chosen a tangent instead.....

"Why is a personal witness not evidence?"  Because it is demonstrable that eye-witnesses will contradict each other, will change and embellish their stories, and can entirely make things up.  You can add to that the fact that a lot of "god-experience" comes as "feelings", and while you can indeed say that "in this circumstance, I felt this", to do say says nothing about any truth or otherwise about what made you feel that way.

And quite apart from all that, if YOUR "personal witness" says one thing, and my "personal witness" another - and a third person's something else - then how do you determine which (if any) "personal witness" was actually correct in what they saw?  To relate it to the justice system, if one witness says "person A shot her", and the next one says "no, person B shot her", then where do you go from there?  Answer is, you look at the physical evidence - the gunpowder residue, blood spatters, or whatever.

And THAT is what I was hoping I'd get from you, Junebug, when you said you had "studied god" - something more than your "feelings".

But once again, off you go with your unsubstantiated assertions.  "There is a power in the universe that creates life. That power is God".  Really?  Says who?  What DO you have to back that assertion up?

The other reason I ask is to try to get you to define what the heck it is you actually believe.  You bounce from an anthropomorphic deity that cries and values free will, to some vague and floaty "power" that just gives "life" (somehow), through this power being the creator of the universe.  I was hoping that as someone who has "studied god" you'd be able to be a little more specific about this "god" that you KNOW exists.

So I'll ask again.  Post what you KNOW about your god, and HOW you knowit, with the evidence please, and your workings.

Because at the moment, all I'm getting from you is "I feel it is this way, so it must be true".  Which, frankly, requires no more rebuttal than "well, I feel it is this way, so your way must be false". 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #169 on: April 15, 2013, 06:31:55 AM »

I am really disappointed in that. There is no reason why you should not learn more facts and explanations about the world; there is nothing to be pleased or even satisfied about if you do not know how things work and why things happen.

I don't see you as "humble"; I see you as someone who has not yet reached her potential.

First of all "i ain't got time for that", second if we all were studying the same things;we'd all know a lot about one thing. There is a reason we all have different interests. There'd be only doctors or only lawyers or only you get the point; don't you? I have no desire whatsoever to be a scientist. It's not because I'm not smart enough; that's not my destiny. I'm going to take my placement test this morning to get a certificate in ophthalmic assisting. That is my passion my dream. I LOVE EYECARE. Worked in the lab for 15 years, got laid off recently and my faith in God has seen me through. Now it's time to move on, and when I feel insecure;GOD;through my spirit inside gives me strength. I know it's easier to believe when you feel it for yourself, but do you have to see someone murdered to believe that someone else did. There is a dead body, but that person could be lying about who they saw pull the trigger.

You could use that same logic, with anything you have believed only with second hand accounts. For instance, did you do the experiments, did you see any of this stuff you believe first hand, or is it the result of someone else's thoughts,study's, etc..Sure you may own some of what you "know" to be true but there was a seed there, a thought planted by another mind.


Quote
It is not "the dividing of beliefs that keep us from our full potential" it is belief itself. If you admit there is a problem with belief, and if you are a believer, then you are a part of the problem that you describe.

It is not the "belief" that causes problem's. Some people don't truly believe. I've heard that said here several times. That people don't "really" believe. That's another difference between being spiritual and religious. Some believe and foolishly seek leaders that do not, or twist the words of great teachers, like Jesus, to suit their own wants and desires. If they truly "had respect" for God they wouldn't do these things.


Quote
The Utopia that you describe is one free of religion, free of preachers who do nothing but take your money and feed you fairy tales, free of idiot beliefs (auras, crystal healing, aromatherapy, etc.) and one where we understand each other. This is atheism.

Why not join us for a better world?

That statement there makes me think you will never achieve your Utopia because you can not understand others; why we need God/Respect for our Origin.

Gotta go get ready now. Test time!

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #170 on: April 15, 2013, 06:35:59 AM »
Good luck with the test, June!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #171 on: April 15, 2013, 06:40:47 AM »

You could use that same logic, with anything you have believed only with second hand accounts. For instance, did you do the experiments, did you see any of this stuff you believe first hand, or is it the result of someone else's thoughts,study's, etc..Sure you may own some of what you "know" to be true but there was a seed there, a thought planted by another mind.


The thing about experimentation is that it can be replicated. If I don't believe someones results I can check them for myself.
This can not be done with faith as it is anecdotal.

Good luck with your test BTW. I hope you can replicate the established results of others findings  ;D

Seriously I hope you do well.

Offline Dante

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #172 on: April 15, 2013, 06:47:41 AM »
There is no reason why you should not learn more facts and explanations about the world; there is nothing to be pleased or even satisfied about if you do not know how things work and why things happen.

First of all "i ain't got time for that",

Yet, you have time to "study" gods.

Brilliant.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing
« Reply #173 on: April 15, 2013, 08:18:01 AM »
I'm going to take my placement test this morning to get a certificate in ophthalmic assisting. That is my passion my dream. I LOVE EYECARE.

Have you ever asked god why he built the eye in such a cack-handed way, with its backwards retina and nerve fibres running in front of the photoreceptors to create a blind spot?  HE got it right with squid, why screw it up for humans?  Next time you are helping deal with a detached retina, just remember that had god not screwed up the design of the eye, that person would still have their sight.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?