Author Topic: A Challenge to Christians  (Read 20032 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #551 on: July 04, 2013, 12:31:58 PM »
Mark 16:18 is an observation, "they will handle deadly snakes , lay hands on the sick and they will recover .
Christians are not commanded to handle the snakes or heal the sick.

Then what on earth is the point of said "observation"?  How would you like it if I wrote a book that said "The followers of the Springy Goddess can heal broken computers by shaking their fists at them, and make fine chocolate materialize out of thin air" but then used the excuse "...but they're much too busy to actually do it"?
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #552 on: July 04, 2013, 12:43:52 PM »
used the excuse "...but they're much too busy to actually do it"?
Or the excuse, "...but they're not commanded to do it".

Offline lux et veritas

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #553 on: July 04, 2013, 12:57:54 PM »
 :The point of the observation is that the miracles were the evidence that God showed his approval of the Christians by performing miracles on their behalf. You will find no evidence that God ever commanded a man to perform a miracle because  it is impossible for men to perform miracles .

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #554 on: July 04, 2013, 02:23:33 PM »
Or the excuse, "...but they're not commanded to do it".

People have to be commanded to summon chocolate and to magically fix computers?  Dear, sweet Uncle Loki -- I'd have to command them to *stop* doing it!   ;D

Although I understand perfectly a reticence to cuddle cobras or scarf down a jar of some noxious substance, I have no clue why True Christians™ haven't emptied every hospital bed in the planet by now.  Even if they confined their hands-on healing just to their own loved ones, it would drastically reduce the number of ailing people.

I'm sure that somewhere on this little blue planet there are plenty of sincere believers who know Mark 16:18.  Why is it that they cannot heal by laying on of hands?  Are they lacking divine approval?  Were they born into the wrong time period?  Why isn't it working for them?
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Online Azdgari

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #555 on: July 04, 2013, 02:39:29 PM »
Gonna have to side with Lux here, that the verse doesn't imply humans to be the ones enacting the miracle.  It's more like, "if humans do X, God will do Y" rather than "if humans do X, then that will result in the humans also doing Y".
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Offline One Above All

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #556 on: July 04, 2013, 02:46:16 PM »
Mark 16:18 is an observation, "they will handle deadly snakes , lay hands on the sick and they will recover .
Christians are not commanded to handle the snakes or heal the sick.

Did you even read my post? I was responding to your claim that "Only God (sic) can perform miracles", which is utterly untrue, as per the Bible. I never said that christians were commanded to perform miracles; I actually (somewhat) agreed with you on that point.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #557 on: July 04, 2013, 02:58:33 PM »
Gonna have to side with Lux here, that the verse doesn't imply humans to be the ones enacting the miracle.  It's more like, "if humans do X, God will do Y" rather than "if humans do X, then that will result in the humans also doing Y".

I'm sure you are right but we still have the problem that people lay hands on the sick, with prayer, and the sick person still dies. Is going refusing to help out if his followers do the right things r is he just not there?
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Online Azdgari

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #558 on: July 04, 2013, 04:29:09 PM »
My point was limited to just that little issue.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #559 on: July 05, 2013, 04:23:39 AM »
:The point of the observation is that the miracles were the evidence that God showed his approval of the Christians by performing miracles on their behalf. You will find no evidence that God ever commanded a man to perform a miracle because  it is impossible for men to perform miracles .

So what you are saying is that thee are NO Christians around today that your god approves of, and this is why we do not seem him doing those miracles through them - is that correct?

Matthew's observation was quite clear that "they will handle deadly snakes , lay hands on the sick and they will recover".  You say that is because your god approved of them, and did the miracles through them.  Therefore, if we do not see "Christians" handling snakes and healing the sick with laying on of hands, presumably god does not approve of them.

Question: can YOU heal the sick with laying on of hands?  If not, are you agreeing that your god does not approve of you?  That must be a terrible realisation to have.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #560 on: July 05, 2013, 05:54:32 AM »
:The point of the observation is that the miracles were the evidence that God showed his approval of the Christians by performing miracles on their behalf. You will find no evidence that God ever commanded a man to perform a miracle because  it is impossible for men to perform miracles .
Funny how no Christians get this 'approval' from God nowadays, isn't it?  If they ever did in the first place, which I doubt.  This 'evidence' is apocryphal, which is being generous.

But leaving aside the issue of whether God commanded them to do it or not - it was certainly taken as a command by Christians, given the prevalence of faith healing and speaking in tongues - I think you're leaving out Mark 16:17, which I'll quote here: "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;".  Both of which are things that Christians do (whether or not they actually cast out demons and speak in real tongues is another story).  And indeed, Christians also handle snakes and lay hands on the sick.  Yet, Christians who handle poisonous snakes and are bitten suffer the side effects of being poisoned.  The sick who Christians purport to treat don't magically recover, either.  And that lends a lot of doubt to the idea that they cast out demons or speak in tongues (as opposed to faked exorcism ceremonies and faked speaking in tongues).

Offline median

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #561 on: July 12, 2013, 12:35:09 PM »
Mark 16:18 is an observation, "they will handle deadly snakes , lay hands on the sick and they will recover .
Christians are not commanded to handle the snakes or heal the sick.

No sir, you are quite wrong. On the contrary, the passage is a notification to those who are claiming to be followers. He's saying (allegedly) that if you are his follower those signs (and more) will follow you - and this is taken into context with other passages where he (Jesus) tells his disciples that "all things are possible to him who believes" (speaking of the miraculous).

If you claim to be a follower of Jesus, and those things aren't happening, then either 1) you aren't a true follower or 2) the religion is a lie.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 12:38:23 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan