Author Topic: A Challenge to Christians  (Read 16381 times)

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Offline holybuckets

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #203 on: April 21, 2013, 06:28:19 PM »
Jaimehlers,
You commented:
"Just don't expect me to blithely accept your statements that this deity exists unless and until you can present evidence to show it. "

Please, let's make no mistake about it. I do not have to present any evidence and show it to you.

Please read my posts. I am claiming that atheists are hypocritical cowards.

Secondly, God proves Himself to every man. We have the free will to accept or reject. By rejecting Him is not my problem, it is yours.


Online Aaron123

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #204 on: April 21, 2013, 06:39:08 PM »
there are testimonial evidence, as Eds sister, that presenced it all, and my wife. Come visit me, and you can interview them. I have plenty of similar stories. On a trial, testimonies serve as evidence. Why should they not in regard of the quest of Gods existence ?

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

A claim of magic is not evidence.


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The thread opener has asked for miracles. I have provided them.

You told a story.  A story is not a miracle.


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present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is. As long as you do not have any, nobody else has either obligation to believe you. So far, not ONE strong atheis has been able to present convincing positive atheist arguments, which make a compelling case for strong atheism.


As others have said in this thread, it's not up to us to prove that something does not exist.  It's up to you to prove that your claims are true.  Thus far, I don't believe in a god due to simple lack of evidence.  From what you've posted, I doubt I'm going to get much anything other than "eyewitness account are vaild!"
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #205 on: April 21, 2013, 08:03:32 PM »
I can list a hundred different things that I would accept as evidence for the existence of a god-being, or at least a being with god-like powers (could be an alien).

For example, a copy of a sacred text with words that nobody could change. Or a person who could make amputated limbs grow back at a touch. Or millions of people in different parts of the world all getting the same  message from this god at the same time in their own languages. I could then believe that there might be such a thing as a god.

However, what evidence would our religious posters accept for the non-existence of god(s)?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #206 on: April 21, 2013, 08:39:46 PM »
I have none and have never claimed to.  So why are you asking?

Then you have a lost case. Case closed.

Offline Azdgari

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #207 on: April 21, 2013, 08:49:57 PM »
You are aware, aren't you, that someone has to first make a case in order to lose it...
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Online Aaron123

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #208 on: April 21, 2013, 08:50:25 PM »
Then you have a lost case. Case closed.

Exactly what part of "I see no evidence for god, therefore, I do not believe" do you not understand?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #209 on: April 21, 2013, 09:14:36 PM »
present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is.

I, sir, do not deal in "solid evidence."  I deal in pragmatism and probability.

I have never seen any gods except in the mirror, and I remain agnostic as to My own divinity.

On the other hand, I have participated in the natural world for over 55 years, with the exception of the times I have been asleep or intoxicated.  The natural world seems quite consistent in its makeup.

Therefore, {probability of natural world being the whole of our reality} > {probability of gods}, and that is sufficient for My needs.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 09:16:40 PM by Astreja »
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Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #210 on: April 21, 2013, 09:23:44 PM »

May I ask you a question.  If I testified that I am the reincarnation of Cleopatra, and that I was abducted by aliens last night, would you accept my testimony at face value?


May i ask you a question as well. What do you think, motivated me, and millions over the world, to testify the miracles they presenced ?

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #211 on: April 21, 2013, 09:26:15 PM »
Yes, because Christians are making the claim that there is a god despite not having any evidence whatsoever to prove there is one.  If you believe there is a god, you have to prove it.  Until you can prove it, nobody else has any obligation to believe you.

present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is. As long as you do not have any, nobody else has either obligation to believe you. So far, not ONE strong atheis has been able to present convincing positive atheist arguments, which make a compelling case for strong atheism.

He is not trying to convince you, or any other believer for that matter, of anything.

It's the other way around - believers are the ones insisting without evidence that their premise is true, non-believers are not accepting that premise without proof. That doesn't mean that we have an agenda to get you to agree with us, we're still trying to get you to present evidence that we should accept your premise. We can't move on to convincing you of anything, since we can't agree on a place to start the actual discussion.

But a lot of us sure do enjoy explaining why we don't agree - by pointing out the flaws in the believers position.  ;D

I know this remains difficult for you to understand, but you are comparing apple and oranges, while discussing bananas and fish. Why is this so hard to understand? We've been explaining it for, what... two or three pages now?

you cannot base a world view on a negative. Thats why you need to provide positive evidence for your case, if you want to be taken seriously. Have any ?

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #212 on: April 21, 2013, 09:26:58 PM »
May i ask you a question as well. What do you think, motivated me, and millions over the world, to testify the miracles they presenced ?

Personally, I think you mistook an uncommon natural phenomenon for something supernatural.
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Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #213 on: April 21, 2013, 09:31:37 PM »
present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is. As long as you do not have any, nobody else has either obligation to believe you. So far, not ONE strong atheis has been able to present convincing positive atheist arguments, which make a compelling case for strong atheism.
First off, I'm not an atheist, let alone a strong atheist.  Second, I don't really care what you (or holybuckets) believes.  If you want to believe in an invisible, undetectable, omnimax deity, go for it.  Just don't expect me to blithely accept your statements that this deity exists unless and until you can present evidence to show it.  I can and will call you on it, until such time as you present actual evidence that I can evaluate.

Same me. Do not expect me to believe, positive atheism is true, unless you provide solid evidence to back up this view.

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Oh, by the way, your testimonials are anecdotal evidence and thus not convincing to prove the existence of your god.

I met the challenge. I have provided the only possible evidence for a miracle. A testimony. Challenge met. If you do not believe it, i can provide you the contact information of the person in question, and its sister. They will confirm everything i said. Why do you believe they have interest to lie ?

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  For all we know, they could be faked; your pastor could have done research on your employee before going there and thus had the information he needed to be able to put together a convincing "God sent me a vision" speech.

Argument from incredulity.

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Or you could be misremembering how things happened.

why should i ?


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This is why anecdotal evidence isn't convincing, because it's so easy to spin.

sure sure..... its however not so easy to spin a world view of pure naturalistic means. Try......

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #214 on: April 21, 2013, 09:33:04 PM »
  Do you understand the danger, and why atheists must speak up?


Yeah, Please speak up. Start , presenting a consistent world view based on positive atheism.

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #215 on: April 21, 2013, 09:36:19 PM »
Yeah, Please speak up. Start , presenting a consistent world view based on positive atheism.

  • Does not burn people at the stake as "witches."
  • Tends to alter worldview in accordance with new scientific evidence.
  • Does not teach people that they were born evil, and that they must accept a proxy human sacrifice in order to avoid eternal torture.
That'll do for a start.  Over to you...
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Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #216 on: April 21, 2013, 09:38:32 PM »

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence"

A claim of magic is not evidence.

The biggest miracle is a universe without a cause. If you claim that, your case is a lost case.


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The thread opener has asked for miracles. I have provided them.

You told a story.  A story is not a miracle.

The narrative was about i miracle i presenced. Challenge met.

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As others have said in this thread, it's not up to us to prove that something does not exist.


Neither have i asked for that. You should read more carefully what i have asked for. Are you sure you understood it correctly ?

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It's up to you to prove that your claims are true.

I do not have to prove anything. Evidence is enough. I have plenty of it. Do you have any to back up your world view ?


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Thus far, I don't believe in a god due to simple lack of evidence.


So where is your evidence for philosophical naturalism and positive atheism ?  You cannot make a case on base of a negative.


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From what you've posted, I doubt I'm going to get much anything other than "eyewitness account are vaild!"

This thread is strictly a challenge of miracles. I have presenced one, and narrated it. Challenge met. That does not say anything else about what evidence i have on hand for theism.

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #217 on: April 21, 2013, 09:40:34 PM »
However, what evidence would our religious posters accept for the non-existence of god(s)?

Just provide evidence that the natural world is all there is. No God needed to create the universe, the natural laws, the fine tuning of the universe, arise of life, human consciousness, the hability of speech, sex. Just to name a few.....

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #218 on: April 21, 2013, 09:44:55 PM »
You are aware, aren't you, that someone has to first make a case in order to lose it...
This website and the majority of participants sream out " there is no god ". This becomes clear after the first assertion, that their case is only disbelief in deities. Its for most of them more that just this. Most do actively deny Gods existence. So they want to make a case. Unfortunately, it has not a solid foundation. Just to build it up on disbelief is not enough. Atheists must be able to stand for a entire world view without God, to make a convincing case. By closer examination however, if falls down like a card house. John Lennox debate with Richard Dawkins was a total humiliation for Dawkins. Its no wonder, most debates are a desaster for the atheist debaters. Under closer examination, it becomes very clear, how strong atheism is a bankrupt hypotheses, without any rational foundation.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #219 on: April 21, 2013, 09:46:08 PM »
I have none and have never claimed to.  So why are you asking?

Then you have a lost case. Case closed.

If you were to set up a chess board and ask me for a game, and I for whatever reason declined to play, would it be your contention that I had lost the game?  That's what you're doing here.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #220 on: April 21, 2013, 09:50:30 PM »
  I deal in pragmatism and probability.

The probability that the universe came out of absolutely nothing is exact...... ZERO. All quantum fluctuation speculations are all irrational nonsense, since a quantum field does not arise from absolutely nothing. A eternal universe is a failed hypotheses, since otherwise we would be in a state of heath death.

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I have never seen any gods except in the mirror, and I remain agnostic as to My own divinity.

You do not need to see the author, to understand that a conscious mind wrote Mary loves Jane, on a sand dune. In the same way, you do not need to see the author, to understand that only a conscious mind can be the author of the codified information stored in DNA.

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On the other hand, I have participated in the natural world for over 55 years, with the exception of the times I have been asleep or intoxicated.  The natural world seems quite consistent in its makeup.

It absolutely is. The only quest is about its author and origin. What evidence do you have the natural world is all there is ?


Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #221 on: April 21, 2013, 09:52:18 PM »
Personally, I think you mistook an uncommon natural phenomenon for something supernatural.

So you call the fact, that my pastor new what happened to my employee in 2002, without never met him before, a " uncommon natural phenomenon " ?
Why do you think it was natural, and not supernatural ?

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #222 on: April 21, 2013, 09:56:11 PM »
Yeah, Please speak up. Start , presenting a consistent world view based on positive atheism.

  • Does not burn people at the stake as "witches."
  • Tends to alter worldview in accordance with new scientific evidence.
  • Does not teach people that they were born evil, and that they must accept a proxy human sacrifice in order to avoid eternal torture.
That'll do for a start.  Over to you...

Just scientific evidence is not enough to build a entire world view. More is required. And you need to be able to provide evidence of how the entire universe could arise by entirely natural means, be finely tuned. Be able to explain abiogenesis, present a natural mechanism for complex, specified , and codified information as stored in the cell. Explain homochirality,  the irreducible complexity in the cell, explain consciousness, and how it arose through evolution. And so sex, the hability of speech. Why men have beards, woman have not. I have a few other issues on hand, but thats enough for now. Just pick one issue, and provide evidence that  methodological naturalism provides the best explanation. Over to you.......

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #223 on: April 21, 2013, 09:58:54 PM »
So you call the fact, that my pastor new what happened to my employee in 2002, without never met him before, a " uncommon natural phenomenon " ?
Why do you think it was natural, and not supernatural ?

First of all, perhaps the pastor had information from an outside source and was simply pretending that the information came from a god, rather than from another human being or from a news report.

Secondly, he might have simply been good at "cold reading" or seen some physical signs such as a scar or a neurological anomaly suggesting a prior injury.

Finally (although I consider this far less likely than the other two options), perhaps he possesses a previously unidentified talent for mind reading that the science of the future may be able to analyze. 
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Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #224 on: April 21, 2013, 09:59:31 PM »
I have none and have never claimed to.  So why are you asking?

Then you have a lost case. Case closed.

If you were to set up a chess board and ask me for a game, and I for whatever reason declined to play, would it be your contention that I had lost the game?  That's what you're doing here.

You are here to play. If you don't , you loose the game.

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #225 on: April 21, 2013, 10:00:54 PM »
Just scientific evidence is not enough to build a entire world view. More is required.

Nonsense!  I, for one, simply don't need anything more.

By the way, are you "Gibhor" from the Randi forum?  Because he asked that same question about beards... Over and over and over again. 
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Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #226 on: April 21, 2013, 10:03:23 PM »
First of all, perhaps the pastor had information from an outside source

I know this pastor. His job is not to deceive people. He was never at my ranch, and never met my employee.


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Secondly, he might have simply been good at "cold reading" or seen some physical signs such as a scar or a neurological anomaly suggesting a prior injury.

My employee had not spoken one word to him. We arrived, the pastor got out of the car, shake my employees hand, and started to make the revelation. No cold reading involved. I presenced it all. There was no way this pastor could have got the information from my employee at this moment.

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Finally (although I consider this far less likely than the other two options), perhaps he possesses a previously unidentified talent for mind reading that the science of the future may be able to analyze.

So you admit dualism is true ?

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #227 on: April 21, 2013, 10:04:17 PM »
Just scientific evidence is not enough to build a entire world view. More is required.

Nonsense!  I, for one, simply don't need anything more.

By the way, are you "Gibhor" from the Randi forum?  Because he asked that same question about beards... Over and over and over again.

yes, i am. I have always a lot of fun to read the nonsense answers to this question.

Online Aaron123

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #228 on: April 21, 2013, 10:06:41 PM »
The biggest miracle is a universe without a cause. If you claim that, your case is a lost case.

The biggest miracle is a god without a cause. If you claim that, your case is a lost case.

Explain why that statement is different than yours.


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The narrative was about i miracle i presenced. Challenge met.


An anecdote is not evidence.  You want us to believe a story, a story you may well have made up on the spot.


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Neither have i asked for that. You should read more carefully what i have asked for. Are you sure you understood it correctly ?

In your post following the one I'm quoting, you wrote down "Just provide evidence that the natural world is all there is. No God needed to create the universe..."

You're effectively asking us to demostrate that god does not exist.


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I do not have to prove anything. Evidence is enough. I have plenty of it. Do you have any to back up your world view ?

You have provided no evidence whatsoever.  You only provided a story that may or may not be entirely fictional.


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So where is your evidence for philosophical naturalism and positive atheism ?  You cannot make a case on base of a negative.


Where is your evidence of god?  The only claim I'm making is that I have seen no evidence for the existence of god.  Thus, I'm not inclined to believe in one.  No need to confound the issue further by adding talk of "philosophical naturalism" and whatsnot.


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This thread is strictly a challenge of miracles. I have presenced one, and narrated it. Challenge met. That does not say anything else about what evidence i have on hand for theism.

Again, an anecdote is not evidence.  You haven't even presented any means to verify this account.

Also, what's with the spelling of "presented"?  You mispelled it twice the same way, so it's not a simple typo.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #229 on: April 21, 2013, 10:08:19 PM »
By the way, are you "Gibhor" from the Randi forum?  Because he asked that same question about beards... Over and over and over again.

yes, i am. I have always a lot of fun to read the nonsense answers to this question.

Mods have been duly notified.
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Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #230 on: April 21, 2013, 10:13:23 PM »
Mods have been duly notified.

very smart. Protect yourself. Otherwise you risk to have the nonsense of your world view exposed.

Offline Astreja

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #231 on: April 21, 2013, 10:15:07 PM »
very smart. Protect yourself. Otherwise you risk to have the nonsense of your world view exposed.

Expose it, then... By having your god visit Me in person, in My office.
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