Author Topic: A Challenge to Christians  (Read 17986 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #174 on: April 21, 2013, 04:09:05 AM »
Note to those who may be waiting for a follow up post from me in this thread (Astreja and Jag, mainly) - I have a very big 2 weeks coming up, with my boss away and having to baby-sit a trainee. It may be at least 2 weeks before I can commit the time to respond meaningfully. of course, not having time hasn't always stopped me before...so who knows. Anyway, I PROMISE to re-engage here when I can.
The 2010 world cup was ruined for me by that slippery bastard Paul.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #175 on: April 21, 2013, 05:30:35 AM »
"This is not rocket science, holybuckets.  People have known that you can't prove a negative for thousands of years.  It is physically impossible to do so.  This isn't something atheists made up to jerk Christians around."

Thank You,

Someone actually TRUTHFULLY answered my question. Atheists CANNOT PROVE their case. YET, they are constantly putting Christians under scrutiny to do so.

Yes we are.  Because Christians are NOT being asked to prove a negative.  They are being asked to prove a positive - the existence of the thing they are asserting.

That's called hypocrisy my friends.

Nope.  It would be hypocrisy if atheists were refusing to prove a negative, AND asking Christians to prove a negative.  That is not the case.  That is why it is not hypocrisy.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #176 on: April 21, 2013, 05:36:18 AM »
Atheists CANNOT PROVE their case. YET, they are constantly putting Christians under scrutiny to do so.

You're still not getting this.  Atheism is the null hypothesis with regard to one particular question: the existence of deities.  It bears no burden of proof because it is making no claim to prove.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline The Gawd

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #177 on: April 21, 2013, 05:43:10 AM »
"This is not rocket science, holybuckets.  People have known that you can't prove a negative for thousands of years.  It is physically impossible to do so.  This isn't something atheists made up to jerk Christians around."

Thank You,

Someone actually TRUTHFULLY answered my question. Atheists CANNOT PROVE their case. YET, they are constantly putting Christians under scrutiny to do so.

That's called hypocrisy my friends.

Well, no, the Christian god has been proven non existent over and over again... the god that cant be disproven or hasnt been is the "god" of deism. You see, once you start making claims about your god and describing it in books, it then becomes testable, the tests either confirm or refute your god. Yahweh was probably the easiest god to prove non existent EVER. His definition proves he doesnt exist, we dont even need to do work to show that!

Offline Graybeard

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #178 on: April 21, 2013, 06:18:41 AM »
It may be at least 2 weeks before I can commit the time to respond meaningfully.

You're making more comebacks than Lazarus.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline holybuckets

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #179 on: April 21, 2013, 08:39:13 AM »
Atheists CANNOT PROVE their case. YET, they are constantly putting Christians under scrutiny to do so.

You're still not getting this.  Atheism is the null hypothesis with regard to one particular question: the existence of deities.  It bears no burden of proof because it is making no claim to prove.

You're still not getting me. You are making a claim that something does not exist. You can hide behind your null hypothesis, negatives, and teapots all you want, but at the end of the day you cant prove anything.

Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not? It is a very simple question.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2013, 09:08:08 AM »
Atheists CANNOT PROVE their case. YET, they are constantly putting Christians under scrutiny to do so.

You're still not getting this.  Atheism is the null hypothesis with regard to one particular question: the existence of deities.  It bears no burden of proof because it is making no claim to prove.

You're still not getting me. You are making a claim that something does not exist. You can hide behind your null hypothesis, negatives, and teapots all you want, but at the end of the day you cant prove anything.

Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not? It is a very simple question.
There is no evidence of a god, therefore it is silly to assert one.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2013, 09:08:41 AM »
You're still not getting this.  Atheism is the null hypothesis with regard to one particular question: the existence of deities.  It bears no burden of proof because it is making no claim to prove.

You're still not getting me. You are making a claim that something does not exist.

What part of "atheism is not a claim" do you not understand?

Quote
You can hide behind your null hypothesis, negatives, and teapots all you want, but at the end of the day you cant prove anything.

Because the atheist is making no claim to prove.  You are attempting to hold the atheist to something that he never said.

Quote
Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not?

Answer this question.  Is there a purple leprechaun in my closet, or is there not?  Your answer to that question is almost certainly going to be the same as my answer is to yours.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline The Gawd

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2013, 09:16:22 AM »
@Pianodwarf

to make the question even more similar you should ask if you have an invisible 8 ft tall midget in your closet. This would account for the hiddeness of 'god' along with the contradictory nature

Online Jag

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2013, 10:26:55 AM »
I think he's hiding in Bertrand Russell's invisible teapot - and holybuckets can't prove me wrong either.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2013, 10:34:59 AM »
Demonstrate your deity. Your bible (Mark 16, John 14) commands you to do miracles (greater works than 'he' supposedly did), and it also commands you to defend your faith with reasoned argument (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 1), just as Paul "reasoned" with the Jews.

I am betting that absolutely none (zero) of you Christians will be able, or willing to adequately finish this challenge. My prediction is 2 fold (for those that actually take the challenge - because most of you believers have no confidence in your beliefs and won't take the challenge). But for those who do, you will either...

I went with a pastor, friend of mine , visiting my farm. it is located about 50km away from where i live. This pastor was never there. When we arrived, a employee of mine welcomed both of us.
When this pastor shaked my employees hand, he said straight away to him : God shows me, that you had a car accident, in 2002. You almost died. You lost a lot of blood. Your intestine was open, and could be seen. But God has a plan in your life, that is why he saved you there. Ed, ( my employees name ) was shocked. He could not say one word. But his sister arrived, and heard everything the pastor said. After he finished, she screamed, and said : Ed, everything this pastor said, is true. Two weeks later, i went again to my farm, and met my employee again. He confirmed me the whole story, and said, that indeed, God called him many times, but he always avoided to convert. After this event, he converted, and is now a born again christian. His sister converted as well. I could tell other similar stories as this. I have presenced this, its all true, not a invented story. My pastor was never at my farm, never met my employee. How do you explain this ?

Offline Aaron123

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2013, 11:15:40 AM »
I went with a pastor, friend of mine , visiting my farm. it is located about 50km away from where i live. This pastor was never there. When we arrived, a employee of mine welcomed both of us.
When this pastor shaked my employees hand, he said straight away to him : God shows me, that you had a car accident, in 2002. You almost died. You lost a lot of blood. Your intestine was open, and could be seen. But God has a plan in your life, that is why he saved you there. Ed, ( my employees name ) was shocked. He could not say one word. But his sister arrived, and heard everything the pastor said. After he finished, she screamed, and said : Ed, everything this pastor said, is true. Two weeks later, i went again to my farm, and met my employee again. He confirmed me the whole story, and said, that indeed, God called him many times, but he always avoided to convert. After this event, he converted, and is now a born again christian. His sister converted as well. I could tell other similar stories as this. I have presenced this, its all true, not a invented story. My pastor was never at my farm, never met my employee. How do you explain this ?

Why should we have to "explain" anything?  You claim that the story is "not invented", but you gave nothing to back up that assertation.  Right now, it's all just words on a screen.  Words that you may very well have made up on the fly.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2013, 11:36:27 AM »
I went with a pastor, friend of mine , visiting my farm. it is located about 50km away from where i live. This pastor was never there. When we arrived, a employee of mine welcomed both of us.

There are a number of possible explanations for this phenomenon, but as Brian Dunning has notably pointed out in the past, the first step in explaining a phenomenon is determining whether or not there is a phenomenon to explain.  Do you have any documentation to support your story?  If not, then I'll also add that Christopher Hitchens has notably pointed out that what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline The Gawd

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2013, 11:38:23 AM »
Demonstrate your deity. Your bible (Mark 16, John 14) commands you to do miracles (greater works than 'he' supposedly did), and it also commands you to defend your faith with reasoned argument (1 Peter 3:15, Jude 1), just as Paul "reasoned" with the Jews.

I am betting that absolutely none (zero) of you Christians will be able, or willing to adequately finish this challenge. My prediction is 2 fold (for those that actually take the challenge - because most of you believers have no confidence in your beliefs and won't take the challenge). But for those who do, you will either...

I went with a pastor, friend of mine , visiting my farm. it is located about 50km away from where i live. This pastor was never there. When we arrived, a employee of mine welcomed both of us.
When this pastor shaked my employees hand, he said straight away to him : God shows me, that you had a car accident, in 2002. You almost died. You lost a lot of blood. Your intestine was open, and could be seen. But God has a plan in your life, that is why he saved you there. Ed, ( my employees name ) was shocked. He could not say one word. But his sister arrived, and heard everything the pastor said. After he finished, she screamed, and said : Ed, everything this pastor said, is true. Two weeks later, i went again to my farm, and met my employee again. He confirmed me the whole story, and said, that indeed, God called him many times, but he always avoided to convert. After this event, he converted, and is now a born again christian. His sister converted as well. I could tell other similar stories as this. I have presenced this, its all true, not a invented story. My pastor was never at my farm, never met my employee. How do you explain this ?

Why didnt your pastor warn those killed in the bombing in Boston to not be where they were? Seems like your god couldve had a more practical use for his random intervention...

Offline holybuckets

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2013, 11:47:27 AM »
Pianodwarf,
I asked you a very simple question. I will repeat it again, since you dodged it the last time:

Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not? It is a very simple question.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #189 on: April 21, 2013, 12:38:42 PM »
Of course, the pastor might easily have seen the story on the TV or in the newspaper and just happened to remember it as it was rather gorey...
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #190 on: April 21, 2013, 01:04:30 PM »
I asked you a very simple question.

Yes, you did.

Quote
I will repeat it again, since you dodged it the last time:

I did not dodge it.  I actually answered it.  My response was meant to make you think.  I should have known better.

Quote
Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not? It is a very simple question.

It appears you lack the mental firepower to understand the point I was trying to make, so let me try to dumb it down to a junior high school level for you:

"I don't know, but since I have never seen any evidence for one, I presuppose that there isn't."  There.  Is that simple enough for you?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline holybuckets

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #191 on: April 21, 2013, 01:44:18 PM »
I asked you a very simple question.

Yes, you did.

Quote
I will repeat it again, since you dodged it the last time:

I did not dodge it.  I actually answered it.  My response was meant to make you think.  I should have known better.

Quote
Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not? It is a very simple question.

It appears you lack the mental firepower to understand the point I was trying to make, so let me try to dumb it down to a junior high school level for you:

"I don't know, but since I have never seen any evidence for one, I presuppose that there isn't."  There.  Is that simple enough for you?

So, there is a possibility the IS a God! Yes or no? Again, this is a very simple question.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #192 on: April 21, 2013, 02:32:17 PM »
Someone actually TRUTHFULLY answered my question. Atheists CANNOT PROVE their case. YET, they are constantly putting Christians under scrutiny to do so.
Yes, because Christians are making the claim that there is a god despite not having any evidence whatsoever to prove there is one.  If you believe there is a god, you have to prove it.  Until you can prove it, nobody else has any obligation to believe you.

Quote from: holybuckets
That's called hypocrisy my friends.
Are you being this dense on purpose?  Hypocrisy is claiming something that you don't actually believe.  It is not holding someone accountable for a claim they're making despite not having any evidence to support it.

You're still not getting me. You are making a claim that something does not exist. You can hide behind your null hypothesis, negatives, and teapots all you want, but at the end of the day you cant prove anything.
And the thing you're just not getting is that they aren't trying to prove there are no gods.  You cannot disprove the existence of something that has not been proven to exist in the first place.  Atheists know that.  Atheism is not about disproving the existence of gods, it is about getting people away from believing in and acting on behalf of things that don't exist.

Quote from: holybuckets
Answer this question. Is there a God, or is there not? It is a very simple question.
No, it's a blatant attempt at a 'gotcha!' question.  The only reason you are even asking is to attempt to 'prove' that atheists are hypocrites.  Given that you knew atheists wouldn't answer that there is a god, you expected they would answer that there isn't one, and would then call them on making a claim without evidence.  Unfortunately for you, it didn't quite work out that way.

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #193 on: April 21, 2013, 02:55:52 PM »
There are a number of possible explanations for this phenomenon, but as Brian Dunning has notably pointed out in the past, the first step in explaining a phenomenon is determining whether or not there is a phenomenon to explain.  Do you have any documentation to support your story?  If not, then I'll also add that Christopher Hitchens has notably pointed out that what can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

there are testimonial evidence, as Eds sister, that presenced it all, and my wife. Come visit me, and you can interview them. I have plenty of similar stories. On a trial, testimonies serve as evidence. Why should they not in regard of the quest of Gods existence ? The thread opener has asked for miracles. I have provided them.

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #194 on: April 21, 2013, 02:58:00 PM »
"I don't know, but since I have never seen any evidence for one, I presuppose that there isn't."  There.  Is that simple enough for you?

So what evidence do you have for positive atheism ?

Offline skepticofatheism

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2013, 03:00:08 PM »
Yes, because Christians are making the claim that there is a god despite not having any evidence whatsoever to prove there is one.  If you believe there is a god, you have to prove it.  Until you can prove it, nobody else has any obligation to believe you.

present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is. As long as you do not have any, nobody else has either obligation to believe you. So far, not ONE strong atheis has been able to present convincing positive atheist arguments, which make a compelling case for strong atheism.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #196 on: April 21, 2013, 03:08:30 PM »
So, there is a possibility the IS a God! Yes or no? Again, this is a very simple question.

Inasmuch as the possibility has not been eliminated, yes, it is possible that a deity or deities exist.

You're acting like this is some kind of a triumphant revelation on your part, when in fact this is the attitude held by most atheists, and it isn't even something that we keep secret; we're quite open about it.  I remember the same kerfuffle coming out some months ago when Dawkins, in an interview, said that he did not completely rule out the possibility that there are one or more deities, and the press went to town on him.  Which was pretty peculiar, since Dawkins has always held this attitude and has always said so.  Why it was such a big deal that time is beyond me.

The number of atheists who claim to know, with certainty, that deities do not exist is pretty small.  I haven't seen any scientifically valid surveys or anything, but if my admittedly-anecdotal experience is any indication, I'd say that fewer than ten percent of all atheists are that type.  And this is what I keep getting at when I try to tell you that atheism is not a claim -- for at least ninety percent of all atheists[1], it isn't a claim.  It's merely lack of agreement with someone else's claim.
 1. Again, if my anecdotal experience is any indication
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #197 on: April 21, 2013, 03:10:28 PM »
"I don't know, but since I have never seen any evidence for one, I presuppose that there isn't."  There.  Is that simple enough for you?

So what evidence do you have for positive atheism ?

I have none and have never claimed to.  So why are you asking?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Quesi

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #198 on: April 21, 2013, 03:41:12 PM »

there are testimonial evidence, as Eds sister, that presenced it all, and my wife. Come visit me, and you can interview them. I have plenty of similar stories. On a trial, testimonies serve as evidence. Why should they not in regard of the quest of Gods existence ? The thread opener has asked for miracles. I have provided them.

Welcome to the forum, skepticofatheism. 

May I ask you a question.  If I testified that I am the reincarnation of Cleopatra, and that I was abducted by aliens last night, would you accept my testimony at face value?

If this teenager in custody testifies that he was instructed by god to place the bomb at the Boston Marathon[1] would you accept his testimony?
 1. I don't think that is what he is going to say, but I could be wrong

Offline jdawg70

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #199 on: April 21, 2013, 03:53:41 PM »
"I don't know, but since I have never seen any evidence for one, I presuppose that there isn't."  There.  Is that simple enough for you?

So what evidence do you have for positive atheism ?
I have some rocks that keep away tigers.  Just $5 each (plus shipping and handling) - interested?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Online Jag

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #200 on: April 21, 2013, 04:13:01 PM »
Yes, because Christians are making the claim that there is a god despite not having any evidence whatsoever to prove there is one.  If you believe there is a god, you have to prove it.  Until you can prove it, nobody else has any obligation to believe you.

present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is. As long as you do not have any, nobody else has either obligation to believe you. So far, not ONE strong atheis has been able to present convincing positive atheist arguments, which make a compelling case for strong atheism.

He is not trying to convince you, or any other believer for that matter, of anything.

It's the other way around - believers are the ones insisting without evidence that their premise is true, non-believers are not accepting that premise without proof. That doesn't mean that we have an agenda to get you to agree with us, we're still trying to get you to present evidence that we should accept your premise. We can't move on to convincing you of anything, since we can't agree on a place to start the actual discussion.

But a lot of us sure do enjoy explaining why we don't agree - by pointing out the flaws in the believers position.  ;D

I know this remains difficult for you to understand, but you are comparing apple and oranges, while discussing bananas and fish. Why is this so hard to understand? We've been explaining it for, what... two or three pages now?
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 04:15:04 PM by Jag »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #201 on: April 21, 2013, 05:22:40 PM »
present solid evidence, that the natural world is all there is. As long as you do not have any, nobody else has either obligation to believe you. So far, not ONE strong atheis has been able to present convincing positive atheist arguments, which make a compelling case for strong atheism.
First off, I'm not an atheist, let alone a strong atheist.  Second, I don't really care what you (or holybuckets) believes.  If you want to believe in an invisible, undetectable, omnimax deity, go for it.  Just don't expect me to blithely accept your statements that this deity exists unless and until you can present evidence to show it.  I can and will call you on it, until such time as you present actual evidence that I can evaluate.

Oh, by the way, your testimonials are anecdotal evidence and thus not convincing to prove the existence of your god.  For all we know, they could be faked; your pastor could have done research on your employee before going there and thus had the information he needed to be able to put together a convincing "God sent me a vision" speech.  Or you could be misremembering how things happened.  There's other explanations as well that don't require the existence of a supernatural deity.  This is why anecdotal evidence isn't convincing, because it's so easy to spin.

Offline shnozzola

Re: A Challenge to Christians
« Reply #202 on: April 21, 2013, 06:19:18 PM »
Visiting theists,

           Speaking only for myself, it is not that I know for sure there is no god, it's just when believers start screaming "Praise Allah," and fly airplanes into buildings to prove their point, it is no longer fucking acceptable to remain quiet.

I know you'll say, " But their beliefs are wrong."  And I say, unfortunately for us all, they are as certain of their beliefs as you are.  Do you understand the danger, and why atheists must speak up?

(well, I guess my post should be under the challenge to Muslims thread, :-[)
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 06:26:16 PM by shnozzola »
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